Dont mez Cant mez?

[Renorsuru]

This is mainly addresed to the 80's crowd but i am starting to wonder if it is the mobs or the chanters.  Ive been through rok instances till i can and occasionally do, do them in my sleep.

Im learning the ropes and I realise at 44 its a different game but i was thinking last night in a particularly nasty fight that i was managing to lock down 4 orange mobs, ( yes an over ehthusiatic tank that loved to run round corners into crowds ),  the number of times doing runs on my 80 dirge and warden that groups have had problems with illusionists not being able to lock down two yellows on instance runs.

Is is that mobs get so much harder to mez and i should expect it, is it that these are scripted encounters like sand storm with special problems i should know about before i hit ROK or is it that so many people are used to being dps chanters thay just forget how to mez?

[Zephanor]

I can't speak to the experience of others but I believe it's as much to do with folks not being used to grouping with a decent chanter (lots of mez breaks) and the overall reduction of importance over CC in this game.  There are some zones you just gotta have a chanter to make things smoother but the design of the game is to avoid the "holy trinity" or MUST HAVE classes so that almost any combination is capable and able to handle most situations.  There are always exceptions to the rule of course and others opinions may differ but this is what I believe having played a chanter in both EQLive and EQ2 since launch.I do recommend getting the highest available grade mezzes for no other reason than the resistability check.  The higher grade the easier it is to mez mobs.  Level ranges are high so it all boils down to that resist check and every bit helps.  Still, some mobs are simply tougher to mez for one reason or another (and I'm not talking about Epic mobs... just don't bother.)  Most of it comes down to persistence, twitch capability, group makeup, tank toughness, mob resistance, etc, etc.  I can routinely mez lock 6 to 7 mobs depending on the situation (with the right AA lineup and spell use) depending on many factors.  I have found that by an large ROK dungeon mobs can be a little more resisty.I'm a DPS spec'd illy but that doesn't change my ability to mez.  In this game due to some of the reasons I mention here the craft is not as tightly honed as it is necessary in some games and I think that contributes a bit the lack of really good CC.  I believe this also makes it a bit tougher for most groups to trust a chanter to do the job effectively enough and stick to the standard strats expecting them to just buff the group and dot the mobs.  Some groups just don't need it (THICK tank, awesome healing, large power pools) so you just DPS away but if you're in a group that can use it simply ask for some trust to CC the mobs to help achieve success.  Yes, this slows things down a little but so does dying or worse yet... wipes.Little frustrates me more than wiping in a situation that could have been properly controlled had the group trusted their chanter, heheh.

[Banditman]

The difference is that by L80, *hopefully* people understand the game and their class a bit better and they simply don't put you in a situation where you *need* to lock down more than a couple mobs.If you are asking if a L80 Illusionist *can* lock down four mobs?  Sure, probably more.  I know that I was able to lock down all five of the heroic adds on the Nexona fight.  Fire off Flash of Brilliance, mez, if it gets dicey, Illuminate.Mezzing isn't a "gotta have it" ability like it was in EQ1.  That doesn't mean there aren't some good mezzers out there, because there are.  It's simply a case where they aren't needed as often.Fortunately, as an Illusionist, you can fill other roles in the situations where mez in unneeded.

[Illine]

the thing is, people don't want u to mez.

if you group with zerk, paladin, sk, warlock, conju ... even adds, they don't want u to mez them and they don't need to, so when you need urgent mez, sometimes you forget because you just don't think about it anymore, or there are already dots on the mobs.

on nexona, sure you know you have to mez, people know you have to mez so I have no problem, because I'm prepared. I can keep 5 mobs under my control (coercer, not illu, sorry).

people know u can mez and will let u when you need to. but unless I'm on a PuG (which I haven't done for a while) and I see the tank struggling to stay alive, I don't mez, I stun and dps. a dead mob won't kill you ... unless he's undead

[feldon30]

My roommate is an 80 illusionist and the number of times that people BREAK BREAK BREAK the mez and wake up mobs is unbelievable. It's like people have no idea what the purpose of an illusionist is except as a mana battery.You know those combat arts and spells with the BLUE background? You will wake up everything if you use those.You know those combat arts and spells that say "Duration: 30 seconds, causes 100 mental damage every 6 seconds"? That's a DoT or Damage Over Time. If you use that, you will wake the mob up every 6 seconds for 30 seconds.I have heard of some tanks actually get annoyed at grouping with enchanters because they bite off more than they can chew, the enchanter mezzes everything, and then the group manages to wake everything back up and they wipe and he/she blames the enchanter.The fact that illusions mean nothing in EQ2 doesn't help to define the roles of enchanters in the game. Other than the Stein of Moggok and the illusionist epic, illusions mean nothing, and everyone can get illusions off the broker for 5g or less. Other than mezzing, it seems enchanters end up being wizards who do mental rather than elemental damage.Can we start a Class Issues thread?No true memwipe.No raid mez.No raid buffs.

[Gnova]

Renorsuru wrote:

This is mainly addresed to the 80's crowd but i am starting to wonder if it is the mobs or the chanters.  Ive been through rok instances till i can and occasionally do, do them in my sleep.

Im learning the ropes and I realise at 44 its a different game but i was thinking last night in a particularly nasty fight that i was managing to lock down 4 orange mobs, ( yes an over ehthusiatic tank that loved to run round corners into crowds ),  the number of times doing runs on my 80 dirge and warden that groups have had problems with illusionists not being able to lock down two yellows on instance runs.

Is is that mobs get so much harder to mez and i should expect it, is it that these are scripted encounters like sand storm with special problems i should know about before i hit ROK or is it that so many people are used to being dps chanters thay just forget how to mez?

Mobs in T8 have higher resist rates then in earlier tiers.  Remember that you have much better gear and a collection of AAs that didn't exist when those mobs were put in game. 

A decent level 80 Illusionist should still be able to lock a lot of mobs down though.  I hear about issues all the time but don't witness them since enchanters don't see another enchanter at work too often.

The other issue is that the mobs hit so hard that usually you don't have much time to lock more then a couple down, especially if unlinked.

As for the breaking mezzes.  I'll mezz them and if the group breaks them I just hope the CA/spell did enough damage to go for them instead of me.  More things to worry about then someone breaking a mezz, unless the group wipes.

[Gnova]

feldon30 wrote:

Can we start a Class Issues thread?No true memwipe.No raid mez.No raid buffs.

Yeah, cause Illusionists are useless to raids and never ever get raid spots :/

[Mihos]

feldon30 wrote:

My roommate is an 80 illusionist and the number of times that people BREAK BREAK BREAK the mez and wake up mobs is unbelievable. It's like people have no idea what the purpose of an illusionist is except as a mana battery.You know those combat arts and spells with the BLUE background? You will wake up everything if you use those.You know those combat arts and spells that say "Duration: 30 seconds, causes 100 mental damage every 6 seconds"? That's a DoT or Damage Over Time. If you use that, you will wake the mob up every 6 seconds for 30 seconds.I have heard of some tanks actually get annoyed at grouping with enchanters because they bite off more than they can chew, the enchanter mezzes everything, and then the group manages to wake everything back up and they wipe and he/she blames the enchanter.The fact that illusions mean nothing in EQ2 doesn't help to define the roles of enchanters in the game. Other than the Stein of Moggok and the illusionist epic, illusions mean nothing, and everyone can get illusions off the broker for 5g or less. Other than mezzing, it seems enchanters end up being wizards who do mental rather than elemental damage.Can we start a Class Issues thread?No true memwipe.No raid mez.No raid buffs.

You mean a class issue thread like the big stickied thread labeled Illusionist class Issues at the top of the forum?  Sure!

Truth is, we are rediculiously overpowered.

[feldon30]

Alright, I'll check out that thread.I am fully aware that Illusionists have very high survivability and are invaluable in groups. However in a raid, they cannot buff outside their group. And illusions in and of themselves don't do anything. If you change illusion into a Drolvarg, they still come at you. If you change illusion into a Gnoll, they still come at you.I am not saying Illusionist isn't a powerful class. I know they are. I'm saying that Illusionist are somewhat misunderstood in groups and their "key role" in EQ1 was not carried over -- actually fooling and distracting mobs. Because they took all the illusion functionality out of Illusionists, they finally realized that they had to give something else -- DPS. My roommate couldn't believe it when people started talking about how Illusionists fare in the parse, how much DPS they are doing. It was never about DPS.Do you argue that Illusionists have in some ways been turned into mental damage dealing Wizards with mez?

[Lansalas]

feldon30 wrote:

Alright, I'll check out that thread.I am fully aware that Illusionists have very high survivability and are invaluable in groups. However in a raid, they cannot buff outside their group. And illusions in and of themselves don't do anything. If you change illusion into a Drolvarg, they still come at you. If you change illusion into a Gnoll, they still come at you.I am not saying Illusionist isn't a powerful class. I know they are. I'm saying that Illusionist are somewhat misunderstood in groups and their "key role" in EQ1 was not carried over -- actually fooling and distracting mobs. Because they took all the illusion functionality out of Illusionists, they finally realized that they had to give something else -- DPS. My roommate couldn't believe it when people started talking about how Illusionists fare in the parse, how much DPS they are doing. It was never about DPS.Do you argue that Illusionists have in some ways been turned into mental damage dealing Wizards with mez?

errr...Actually, illusionists can cast Tandem outside their group, which is the best dps buff for caster they have .

[Mihos]

High end, our primary role is to have our mythical.

[feldon30]

The mythical Illusionist weapon is one of the biggest upgrades over the Fabled in the game. The fabled is really not that exciting IMO.Having pet up AND various buffs.The Rapidity as a group buff will kick butt.As will the 5% ranged double attack when I'm grouped with him. No wonder illys are doing 4k or more with their mythical.

[Mihos]

The unlimited group power is pretty much the biggest thing, but the group rapidity with double attack bonus is definatly nice.

[Miwyen]

The power thing on illu mythical indeed works nice! and the pet used well can score 500-1k+ DPS for you

tho i realy do HATE the haste buff.. IMO is a disgrace that could be compared to adding... umm... giving bards a 3 consentration pet?

i realy could list why that things is so stupid.. but i will spare everyone, jsut disapointed how of everything cool the devs could chose, they chosed that, made me very very sad

and to adress the main topic of the threed, its indeed stupid so many mobs magicaly are super imune to CC... they gonna be imune to DPS to.. or have a stifeling area for healers soon aswell? its jsut waht the yare doing, removing one of our main purposes in a group... very nice!

[Banditman]

Miwyen wrote:

The power thing on illu mythical indeed works nice! and the pet used well can score 500-1k+ DPS for you

tho i realy do HATE the haste buff.. IMO is a disgrace that could be compared to adding... umm... giving bards a 3 consentration pet?

i realy could list why that things is so stupid.. but i will spare everyone, jsut disapointed how of everything cool the devs could chose, they chosed that, made me very very sad

and to adress the main topic of the threed, its indeed stupid so many mobs magicaly are super imune to CC... they gonna be imune to DPS to.. or have a stifeling area for healers soon aswell? its jsut waht the yare doing, removing one of our main purposes in a group... very nice!

So, you're disappointed because an Illusionist with a Mythical now has the equivalent of NINE concentration slots?  Sign me up for more "disappointment" as soon as possible.

[Mihos]

Miwyen wrote:

and to adress the main topic of the threed, its indeed stupid so many mobs magicaly are super imune to CC... they gonna be imune to DPS to.. or have a stifeling area for healers soon aswell? its jsut waht the yare doing, removing one of our main purposes in a group... very nice!

There are already mobs that are immune to types of/certain classes of DPS or punish you for having too much of it.  Same with stifling healers or stunning them on any benificial spells.... or just straight out targeting them to kill.

Its hard to make CC meaningfull without trivializing encounters.   They kind of took the easy way out and lessened the need for CC and gave us more DPS to make up for it. 

[Miwyen]

no, im disapointed becurse illusionist got a as useless thing on their mythical as if a guardian would have a groupwhide spell proc thing like POTM or somthing...the buff is awesome, yes! as is POTMPOTM on a guardian is... stupidso is our thinngy

[Banditman]

Our buff is absolutely superior.  Ask any Scout who is in your group how useless Rapidity is when it has 10% DA stacked on top.Just because it doesn't benefit YOU doesn't mean it's useless.

[Miwyen]

the scout in my group... yea the trubby? ohh yea im sure he likes it... she likes tandem aswell.. and TC... and i belive whatever cooler the devs could done that would be more in the line of an illusionist and not a dirge/coercer would been appriciated aswell...

[Pins]

Miwyen wrote:

the scout in my group... yea the trubby? ohh yea im sure he likes it... she likes tandem aswell.. and TC... and i belive whatever cooler the devs could done that would be more in the line of an illusionist and not a dirge/coercer would been appriciated aswell...

Maybe you should start learning how to create better groups for raids then.

[Miwyen]

better groups? i been in many raidsetups and never had as fun as this.. and thats what its about right, fun?

[feldon30]

I love how every post in this forum is "Illusionists are too freaking overpowered. You should have nothing to complain about." The problem is not survivability or lack of power or use in a group. It's the dumbing down, simplification, and somewhat the loss of identity.The question I think a lot of Enchanters from EQ1 coming over want to know is -- Where are the true illusions? Where are the abilities to confuse mobs in a group? Illusionists in EQ2 seem to be 2nd tier Mages that do mental rather than elemental damage, and have many mez and sleep effects, most of which do not work on raid mobs.In EQ1, the illusions that Enchanters got actually worked -- they allowed them to go into racial-specific areas and not agro those mobs. Enchanters got a true Memwipe, with the ability to completely deagro a mob or group of mobs. I guess they felt this would have been overpowered in EQ2.

[Mihos]

I think you need to read the forum posts from about 2 years ago to answer those questions... what racial specific areas would you even want to go to in EQ2? 

Coercers get the mem wipe you are talking about.

[Andu]

Miwyen wrote:

better groups? i been in many raidsetups and never had as fun as this.. and thats what its about right, fun?

I think what Pinski meant was that if the only scout in your group is the Troubadour then the person organising your raid groups needs to learn more about what each class does and how to setup a raid.

[Miwyen]

using a ranger now aswell whos happt with IA

and now if we do have a concept that has.. goten us all mythicals withou much hazzle after nexona... why change it?