Adventurers make money while EXPing, why not crafters?

[NicolasKL]

What's so evil about crafters making money while advancing their level?  I don't really understand why this is so terrible.  At first I wanted to think it's because there's little risk involved in crafting so they're really screwing you on the reward, but where's the risk in adventuring?  If this was EQ1 then you've got risk, but the death penalty in EQ2 seems to be practically non-existent so, again, where's the risk?

I'm T7 jeweler and every time I hit the Begin button I lose, what, 50s?  1g?  Oh yeah, I can do Rush Orders and make 3g.  Except I'm not making 3g.  I'm making 3g - value of 60 raws = -3g or so.  And don't say if you do your own harvesting you're not losing money.  I do do my own harvesting and you're still losing money because those raw materials have value.

I really don't understand why this is the way it is.  And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, as it was a long time ago, but the initial crafting system was also designed this way.  Because of the way those harvesting writs worked it essentially made it so every cent of the vendor value of an item went to the harvester and none of it (by design) went to the crafter.

Sure, I can make a little bit here and there doing commissions, but that doesnt make up for the fact that I'm losing money advancing.  What do you think would happen if they changed the system so that every time an adventurer swung his sword it subtracted 50s from his bank account?  Why is that how it works for us?

[Gorhauth]

NicolasKL wrote:

Sure, I can make a little bit here and there doing commissions, but that doesnt make up for the fact that I'm losing money advancing. What do you think would happen if they changed the system so that every time an adventurer swung his sword it subtracted 50s from his bank account? Why is that how it works for us?

That is kind of like how rangers fight.  Every bow shot was coin out of their pocket.  It was changed so CAs no longer use an arrow recently, so that is some minor relief, but the costs are still atrocious.  The other poison users (assassins, brigands, and swashbucklers) also have a cost every time their poisons proc.  Until T8, my crafters had a lot more coin than my adventurers.  My Alchemist had over 90p when he finished leveling and was only seeded with 2p to start with (for the initial books and fuels).  My main didn't have that much from adventuring/raiding until T7.

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

This is an age old request. From day 1 we should have always been reimbursed something for TS writs for cost of raws, even if it was tiny, like 1c per raw for T1, and something exponential up from there (perhaps even related to cost of fuels) something to say yeah we realize you are sacrificing something by using instead of selling raws while adventures only gain gain gain and have nothing to put out. Adventurers can get all the tools they need DOING writs (gear, spells, etc) in the field, TSers can either spend a fortune on raws or spend time getting their own.

[NicolasKL]

Gorhauth wrote:

NicolasKL wrote:

Sure, I can make a little bit here and there doing commissions, but that doesnt make up for the fact that I'm losing money advancing. What do you think would happen if they changed the system so that every time an adventurer swung his sword it subtracted 50s from his bank account? Why is that how it works for us?

That is kind of like how rangers fight.  Every bow shot was coin out of their pocket.  It was changed so CAs no longer use an arrow recently, so that is some minor relief, but the costs are still atrocious.  The other poison users (assassins, brigands, and swashbucklers) also have a cost every time their poisons proc.  Until T8, my crafters had a lot more coin than my adventurers.  My Alchemist had over 90p when he finished leveling and was only seeded with 2p to start with (for the initial books and fuels).  My main didn't have that much from adventuring/raiding until T7.

I'm a swashbuckler, I'd say the cost is pretty minimal, there's no way you can say they're losing money EXPing because of poisons (or arrows).

You made 90p as alch, buying all your mats off the broker?  Because if you didn't buy all your mats off the broker then you didn't make 90p as an alch, you made 90p as a harvester.  I've got a nice chunk of change too, but I've made it all harvesting, not crafting.

[ke'la]

NicolasKL wrote:

Gorhauth wrote:

NicolasKL wrote:

Sure, I can make a little bit here and there doing commissions, but that doesnt make up for the fact that I'm losing money advancing. What do you think would happen if they changed the system so that every time an adventurer swung his sword it subtracted 50s from his bank account? Why is that how it works for us?

That is kind of like how rangers fight. Every bow shot was coin out of their pocket. It was changed so CAs no longer use an arrow recently, so that is some minor relief, but the costs are still atrocious. The other poison users (assassins, brigands, and swashbucklers) also have a cost every time their poisons proc. Until T8, my crafters had a lot more coin than my adventurers. My Alchemist had over 90p when he finished leveling and was only seeded with 2p to start with (for the initial books and fuels). My main didn't have that much from adventuring/raiding until T7.

I'm a swashbuckler, I'd say the cost is pretty minimal, there's no way you can say they're losing money EXPing because of poisons (or arrows).

You made 90p as alch, buying all your mats off the broker? Because if you didn't buy all your mats off the broker then you didn't make 90p as an alch, you made 90p as a harvester. I've got a nice chunk of change too, but I've made it all harvesting, not crafting.

Harvesting is PART of crafting, just like Questing is part of adventuring, yes you can do both without those pieces, but you will be less successful then you would if you included those pieces.BTW, they did at one time give some coin at the vendors above fuel costs, the result was a bunch of Crafting bots working for plat sellers, and this was when failing at crafting could kill you, and not getting pristine was commin. Now if they put it back in it would be far worst. Rush Orders give a Small amount of Money over fuel costs, Status, XP, and Faction + addtional XP from the crafting itself. Adventure Writs give Status and Faction + a good chance for gold of mobs, and XP off MoBs, I would consiter that equil IF you harvest yourself.BTW, NOTHING in this game is about Risk vs Reward. Its about Time Invested vs. Reward. Harvesting is where TSers invest most of there time, therefor it's harvesting that gets most of the reward.

[zaneluke]

You must be doing something wrong IMHO.I harvested T-3 to "advance" my jeweler. I did about 2 hours of clear cutting in thundering steeps.  Netted about 15 rares. Sold on broker 75% of the pelts.All the wood.Rare wood and rare pelts.Took the rare gems,soft metal and ore and made the mastercrafted stuff at level 28.Sold ALL my master crafted stuff plus the rings and stuff that used the luminous material.Level 30 jeweler i pulled in about 5 plat for 3 hours work.

[Thicket Tundrabog]

I also don't understand the OP's post. Crafting writs are an easy way to make money. Jeweler is one of the better tradeskills because some of the components sell cheaply on the broker.

I'm currently grinding writs on a level 80 alchemist. All the components sell for less than 1 silver each on the broker (usually 2 copper). I make 1.8 plat an hour.

[stfields]

And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, as it was a long time ago, but the initial crafting system was also designed this way.  Because of the way those harvesting writs worked it essentially made it so every cent of the vendor value of an item went to the harvester and none of it (by design) went to the crafter.

The initial crafting system was focused more on dependency of other tradeskillers to make the subcomponents necessary in order for you to craft items.  It was a decent system at the beginning because even handcrafted armor, app4 spells/combat arts, and weapons actually were purchased by players. 

I was able to level my armorer from 30 to near 50 and sell almost every item to a player instead of the vendor.  The crafting system was very different.  I won't say it was better (or worse), just different.  It certainly couldn't handle the glut of tradeskillers we have now. 

Also, raws had value in the final product.  To the vendor, raws had no value.  But, each raw did carry some weight in the final product if you sold to vendor.  I forgot the exact number, but for some reason, I think all T6 raws were worth something around 10s each to a vendor.  Like if you took 1 fulginate cluster and turned it into 1 fulginate bar, it would be worth 10s + fuel cost.  Something like that. 

Since I came back to the game, I'm making a fair amount of profit.  I won't say its stellar.  I wouldn't even go so far as to say I can "out-profit" an adventurer.  Maybe if I really focused on doing work for others, finding niches in the market, maybe I could turn a bigger profit.  It doesn't really bother me all that much.  If I can take a bunch of ingredients, do 1 combine and make 1 plat, I'd say that's ok for me. 

Writs do make money, but it is certainly slow going.  If you are working towards faction, its not so bad.  1.8p an hour is pretty much the cap I'd think assuming all raws are selling for 2c.  But, I think that would mean you are grinding non-stop for an hour, no breaks.  When you think about it, it really isn't all that great.

[feldon30]

NicolasKL wrote:

I'm a swashbuckler, and know nothing about the cost of being a ranger or assassin, but I'm just gonna make some generalized assumptions and comments stated as fact anyway.

I fixed it for you.

[troodon]

NicolasKL wrote:

And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, as it was a long time ago, but the initial crafting system was also designed this way.  Because of the way those harvesting writs worked it essentially made it so every cent of the vendor value of an item went to the harvester and none of it (by design) went to the crafter.

The original conception of crafting in EQ2 was to have the player work extensively with his crafting society.  The society was supposed to offer a wide range of quests (crafting, harvesting, and delivery) meant to provide a source of questing income to the crafter, meanwhile the crafter was supposed to level up the society (through crafting writs) like a guild in order to obtain a wider selection of perks (like subcombines purchased from the wholesaler).

Very little of that made it into the actual game by release, and they just sort of abandoned the idea of TSers making a profit while exping.

[Domino]

NicolasKL wrote:

And don't say if you do your own harvesting you're not losing money.  I do do my own harvesting and you're still losing money because those raw materials have value.

If you do your own harvesting you're not losing money.    And not maximizing potential value of harvests is not the same as losing money.  If you choose to sell the harvests, you get more money but you're not levelling up.  If you choose to use the harvests to craft, you may not be maximizing the potential sale value of the harvests, but the trade off is that you're gaining in levels.  Neither way are you losing money, however, you're gaining money in both cases.  You are just prioritizing differently which gains you want to make, which is what the game's all about whether you craft, harvest, or adventure.

[Bozidar]

but if we're at 80, we're neither maximizing the use of the harvests nor gaining in levels

[Karlen]

Adventurers can make money selling their loot on the broker.  Crafters can make money selling their created products on the the broker.  I don't really see how there is a difference.My woodworker made good money levelling up by selling everything she made on the broker.  Some stuff took a long time to sell (such as handcrafted weapons), but almost all of it sold eventually.My defiler has been buying adept IIIs on the broker lately.   A quick search of 50-60 Defiler spells yesterday showed the rare price around 65g, the cheapest Adept III at 1p10g and the adept III price reaching 2p40g on the second page.   NOTE: this is the price in Freeport -- most of the sellers were in South Qeynos.  It seems to me that there is room for making money there.Advice to Sages: People with evil classes (such as defilers) for the most part tend to live in the evil cities and don't shop in South Qeynos.  Try setting up some sellers in Freeport to unload evil-class spells. 

[zaneluke]

Karlen@Befallen wrote:

Advice to Sages: People with evil classes (such as defilers) for the most part tend to live in the evil cities and don't shop in South Qeynos. Try setting up some sellers in Freeport to unload evil-class spells.

I have all three spell making tradeskill professions. I put good spells in good city brokers and visa versa. It amazes me at how people could forget to do this and wonder why the evil spells do not sell in quenyos.

[Finora]

Bozidar wrote:

but if we're at 80, we're neither maximizing the use of the harvests nor gaining in levels

Hehe, but if you are level 80 you are very likely crafting for some other purpose. I know my level 80 crafters craft either for status/faction/orders from other players/to sell on the broker/items I need for myself or an alt. I've never found myself 'losing' money at 80.

[Bozidar]

ok, quick question, how much gold does a T8 adventure writ return?

follow up question for the risk/reward crowd's likely respons

does harvesting mats to craft put you in harms way?

[Boyar]

Crafters make money, even from writs. My 80 carp was browsing the broker and discovered that the bottom had fallen out of the Incarnadine market (again ) so quickly bought all he could... and discovered he had less than 50 sandpaper left and no money to buy more. After the first writ he could afford to do 2 writs, after 2 more he could do 3... a dozen writs later he could afford sandpaper for 20 incarnadine sconces, put them on the broker and had 8 plat 2 days later. It really does work if you're willing to work it.

(I think T8 rush writs are a bit more than 10g over fuel cost)

[Bozidar]

Thud@Befallen wrote:

(I think T8 rush writs are a bit more than 10g over fuel cost)

I do not think that is the case.

[Oakum]

Bozidar wrote:

Thud@Befallen wrote:

(I think T8 rush writs are a bit more than 10g over fuel cost)

I do not think that is the case.

The highest T8 rush order gives me 12 gold a writ so you can make some money eventually doing it.

Its theorically possible to get a rare Favor of Innovation. You have just as good odds at winning the goblin lotto though. The FOI rate needs to be increased IMO.

Now while doing an adv writ you can get a 50 or 100 plat trash master.  The odds of doing this are somewhat better then winning the goblin lotto though.

[NicolasKL]

Oakthicket@Permafrost wrote:

I also don't understand the OP's post. Crafting writs are an easy way to make money. Jeweler is one of the better tradeskills because some of the components sell cheaply on the broker.

I'm currently grinding writs on a level 80 alchemist. All the components sell for less than 1 silver each on the broker (usually 2 copper). I make 1.8 plat an hour.

On my server, at my tier, for my profession, I lose 30g an hour grinding writs.  I don't make 1.8p an hour.  Do you understand now?  Cheapest prices on the broker right now = 10s for Azurite, 20s for Adamantine.  My last writ needed 26 azurite and 14 adamintine = cost of 5.4g for a writ that pays 3.something g. 

[NicolasKL]

DominoDev wrote:

NicolasKL wrote:

And don't say if you do your own harvesting you're not losing money.  I do do my own harvesting and you're still losing money because those raw materials have value.

If you do your own harvesting you're not losing money.    And not maximizing potential value of harvests is not the same as losing money.  If you choose to sell the harvests, you get more money but you're not levelling up.  If you choose to use the harvests to craft, you may not be maximizing the potential sale value of the harvests, but the trade off is that you're gaining in levels.  Neither way are you losing money, however, you're gaining money in both cases.  You are just prioritizing differently which gains you want to make, which is what the game's all about whether you craft, harvest, or adventure.

I'm gaining money harvesting, losing money crafting.  Those are two different activities.  If I take 6g of materials and use them to do a writ that pays 3g then I'm losing money.  Period.  How can you say otherwise?  Yes, I'm losing money in order to gain levels.  That's my entire point: I have to lose money to gain levels, adventurers don't, why?

If harvesting is meant to be an integral part of crafting then why are characters that are solely adventurers so good at it and characters that are solely crafters so bad it?  Doesn't make sense.

[NicolasKL]

feldon30 wrote:

NicolasKL wrote:

I'm a swashbuckler, and know nothing about the cost of being a ranger or assassin, but I'm just gonna make some generalized assumptions and comments stated as fact anyway.

I fixed it for you.

If you don't have any evidence that rangers or assassins are losing money in order to kill mobs then all you're doing here is trolling.

[NicolasKL]

Karlen@Befallen wrote:

Adventurers can make money selling their loot on the broker.  Crafters can make money selling their created products on the the broker.  I don't really see how there is a difference.My woodworker made good money levelling up by selling everything she made on the broker.  Some stuff took a long time to sell (such as handcrafted weapons), but almost all of it sold eventually.My defiler has been buying adept IIIs on the broker lately.   A quick search of 50-60 Defiler spells yesterday showed the rare price around 65g, the cheapest Adept III at 1p10g and the adept III price reaching 2p40g on the second page.   NOTE: this is the price in Freeport -- most of the sellers were in South Qeynos.  It seems to me that there is room for making money there.Advice to Sages: People with evil classes (such as defilers) for the most part tend to live in the evil cities and don't shop in South Qeynos.  Try setting up some sellers in Freeport to unload evil-class spells. 

If I gained exp making actual items and not grinding writs then 99.9% of what I make would not sell on the broker "eventually" it would sit on the broker forever.  Literally.  Not an exaggeration.

[Bozidar]

Oakum wrote:

The highest T8 rush order gives me 12 gold a writ so you can make some money eventually doing it.

Its theorically possible to get a rare Favor of Innovation. You have just as good odds at winning the goblin lotto though. The FOI rate needs to be increased IMO.

Now while doing an adv writ you can get a 50 or 100 plat trash master.  The odds of doing this are somewhat better then winning the goblin lotto though.

12 gold plus fuel cost?  I thought it was lower than that, i'll have to double check when i get home.

[Thicket Tundrabog]

Bozidar wrote:

Oakum wrote:12 gold plus fuel cost?  I thought it was lower than that, i'll have to double check when i get home.

No need to check. It's exactly 12 gold, 11 silver, 5 copper over fuel for the highest level rush order.

NicolasKL -- You're clearly dead set that you're losing money doing writs although others are gaining money. Not much point discussing when your mind is made up, right?

When I want to make money, I craft. Writs aren't the best crafting money maker, but they're just fine. When I want a change of pace, I adventure. I certainly wouldn't adventure to make money (since I'm not a raider).

[NicolasKL]

Oakthicket@Permafrost wrote:

Bozidar wrote:

Oakum wrote:12 gold plus fuel cost?  I thought it was lower than that, i'll have to double check when i get home.

No need to check. It's exactly 12 gold, 11 silver, 5 copper over fuel for the highest level rush order.

NicolasKL -- You're clearly dead set that you're losing money doing writs although others are gaining money. Not much point discussing when your mind is made up, right?

When I want to make money, I craft. Writs aren't the best crafting money maker, but they're just fine. When I want a change of pace, I adventure. I certainly wouldn't adventure to make money (since I'm not a raider).

So you're saying that I'm lying?  Look at mat prices on AB.  How could I be lying?  It's a fact, how is my "mind made up?"  You think I'm the one making material prices cost twice what the writ pays?  I don't understand your post.

We know what writs pay.  Anyone can log into AB and check mat prices.  Where is the gray area here that "my mind is made up" about?  Is simple math.  A - B = X.  A is the writ pays, B is the cost of mats, and on my server that makes X negative for a T7 jeweler.  What part do you disagree with?  I'm saying that 2+2 = 4 and you're saying that theres no point in discussing because my mind is made up that 2+2=4?  Okay buddy, you tell me what 2+2 equals.

 Those mat prices I quotes are the absolute lowest btw, and there are only about 60 available of adamantine at those prices.  If I want to actually craft for more than 10 minutes I'm going to have to be paying in the 35-40s range which will obviously cause me to lose even more money.

[grymmstone]

Bozidar wrote:

ok, quick question, how much gold does a T8 adventure writ return?

follow up question for the risk/reward crowd's likely respons

does harvesting mats to craft put you in harms way?

Adventure writs originally did not return coin, only faction for the city faction that requested the task and status for both guild and self.  I really haven't paid any attention if there is coin attached to t8 wits or not.

 And yes... If you are a lowbie adventurer and a at cap Crafter harvesting can put you in harms way. If you are at cap adventure and  at cap crafter not so much.

[thecynic315]

Bozidar wrote:

ok, quick question, how much gold does a T8 adventure writ return?

follow up question for the risk/reward crowd's likely respons

does harvesting mats to craft put you in harms way?

I ran the numbers on this a while ago, doing Jeweler T8 very hard Rush Orders I made about 75G per stack of fuel used.

[Oh]

Bozidar wrote:

ok, quick question, how much gold does a T8 adventure writ return?

Adventure writs do NOT give you any coin, what coin you get is body drops that you inturn vender/broker. This can be very very low returns to very high returns depending if your just doing the specific mobs, RND, and if you look around and wack a named or two if they are up.

follow up question for the risk/reward crowd's likely respons

does harvesting mats to craft put you in harms way?

level 10 adventurers can harvest in all tiers. At level 10 does death really mean anything? Heck even at 80 does death really mean anything other then I have to repair? Normally When I do my adventure writs I am also gathering mats for doing more TS writs, or while I was leveling I would do quests and also gather my mats. More/less doing multiple things at the same time as to not waste my opertunity when it was around.

[Oh]

NicolasKL wrote:

Oakthicket@Permafrost wrote:

Bozidar wrote:

Oakum wrote:12 gold plus fuel cost?  I thought it was lower than that, i'll have to double check when i get home.

No need to check. It's exactly 12 gold, 11 silver, 5 copper over fuel for the highest level rush order.

NicolasKL -- You're clearly dead set that you're losing money doing writs although others are gaining money. Not much point discussing when your mind is made up, right?

When I want to make money, I craft. Writs aren't the best crafting money maker, but they're just fine. When I want a change of pace, I adventure. I certainly wouldn't adventure to make money (since I'm not a raider).

So you're saying that I'm lying?  Look at mat prices on AB.  How could I be lying?  It's a fact, how is my "mind made up?"  You think I'm the one making material prices cost twice what the writ pays?  I don't understand your post.

We know what writs pay.  Anyone can log into AB and check mat prices.  Where is the gray area here that "my mind is made up" about?  Is simple math.  A - B = X.  A is the writ pays, B is the cost of mats, and on my server that makes X negative for a T7 jeweler.  What part do you disagree with?  I'm saying that 2+2 = 4 and you're saying that theres no point in discussing because my mind is made up that 2+2=4?  Okay buddy, you tell me what 2+2 equals.

 Those mat prices I quotes are the absolute lowest btw, and there are only about 60 available of adamantine at those prices.  If I want to actually craft for more than 10 minutes I'm going to have to be paying in the 35-40s range which will obviously cause me to lose even more money.

Your falling into the supply and demand issue for crafting. AT the current level you are there are only a few folks actually harvesting mats and selling them so corispondily they sell for more. IF you had 100's of folks farming for mats and selling them on the broker well you would see a sever price reduction (example T8 raws). Even with that said, there are some neuances. For example since Silicate loams sell for 4 arms and a leg on most servers everyone is farming ore nodes so those raws sell for copper to copper versus other harvestables folks aren't getting that much cause they don't need the rare so they sell for a bit more.

Soo really the choice is either a) level up your crafter with the parts you aquire or b) sell them on the broker. Each has it's own rewards only you can truely say which one is of greater value to you.