Trakanon's Tooth delay change from 3.5

[Frakker]

Trakanon's Tooth from Kotiz was one of the few (only?) good, non-raid, 3.5 delay weapons in the game. It was recently changed to a 4.0 delay for some reason.  The weapon was a long time favorite of Bards due to it's matching delay with our Epic.  Yes, I know it's not critical to have a matching delays, but it sure is nice if you're used to swing timing.There are plenty of 4.0 weapons around, so why change this one?  Does anyone know of another 3.5 delay offhand weapon other than the fabled incandescent blade?

[Valanthe]

Marrow's Song off the horrifically easy first named in SoH.

[Dreamaria]

Yes this is really depressing, after farming that name for months to get it they do this to us. I'm putting on my cardiocutter and Trakanon's tooth and banking my epic sadly, so much for epic weapons (not mythical of course).If you're lucky enough to have a nice good guild that's willing to take time to run quests in sebilis with you there is an okay 3.5 delay weapon from the Reets. It's called a Reet Crafted Scale Biter I believe, it takes work and a group that can walk through seb easily. Took my guild about 2-3 hours or so do to do the whole quest line in seb with 5 people and a coth to the bottom.Begging and Praying that developers post a reply and perhaps change it back again. Was really a sneaky change to me, I actually had to check and see if this was true. saddens me greatly. Since I didn't notice much of a difference if any in dps from my Lamentation of the Intrepid (dirge epic) and it doesn't help the group, it would be just as easy for you to run CoA and get the fabled cardio and go with those if they don't change it back.Unfortunately the attention this post will get may not be much since most bards are in raid guilds and aren't limited to what is accessible to them.I hope this gets some attention and maybe a fix.

[Dreamaria]

I went ahead and did an in game feedback, I would recomment that if you haven't, we may get someone to pay attention.

[Jasuo]

Or better yet, what is so overpowering about the bard epics being changed to 4 sec delays?

[Dreamaria]

Yeah i recommended that too, don't know why it's the odd ball out of the scout weapons.

[Ka]

Please change the Bard epics to 4.0s delay.

[Dreamaria]

I see there's not much of a reply here. 4 second delay would be really nice, a lot more options for off hand weapons, do any bards actually use a shield? guess that's a possiblity, but I don't like the dps drop I noticed when testing it.

[Jasuo]

More dps from dual wielding than possible with a shield, even with the shield AA line.

[Faelgalad]

My Vote for 4sec on Epic.

I don't use my epic (fabled) as there are so few 3,5 second offhand weapons.

[Dreamaria]

Faelgalad wrote:

My Vote for 4sec on Epic.

I don't use my epic (fabled) as there are so few 3,5 second offhand weapons.

I didn't use it when i first got it either, for that very reason.I would love a 4 second but with the passing of the last live update, when they changed some epics, and no change to the delay on bard epics I gave up hope for this and figured oh well I guess I have a nice 3.5 to go with my epic...and then it's gone and now I use 4 second delays and my epic sits in my bank very lonely.

[Fyreflyte]

Dreamaria wrote:

I see there's not much of a reply here.

We were all at Fan Faire.The tooth's delay was changed to match up with more rogue weapons, and I'd been unaware that it was such a popular bard choice. This does seem to be indicative of a larger problem, however with mismatched mythical speeds. We'll have to discuss this internally a bit to see what we want to do, but I'll get back to you guys on it as soon as I'm able.

[Dreamaria]

Fyreflyte wrote:

Dreamaria wrote:

I see there's not much of a reply here.

We were all at Fan Faire.The tooth's delay was changed to match up with more rogue weapons, and I'd been unaware that it was such a popular bard choice. This does seem to be indicative of a larger problem, however with mismatched mythical speeds. We'll have to discuss this internally a bit to see what we want to do, but I'll get back to you guys on it as soon as I'm able.

Sorry may slightly forget things at times...and thanks for taking a look, I understand the 4 second delay matching with many other rok rogue weapons as I play very closely with a swashbuckler (and boy did he get to hear me rant when I checked up on this change).

[Ballads]

For the love of god, plz fix Bards weapons to be 4.0 delay. a 3.5 delay weapon in my main hand causes my proc rate to decrease by .1 on a 2.0 proc rate making it 1.9 .

[Paikis]

If you're going to change the delay on the bard epics (and you should IMO!) to 4.0, please also go through and change the other 3.5 weapons to 4.0. Seems we're getting a bug with proc rates when using 3.5 delay weapons. Weapons to change include: Incandescent blade (nexona drop) and Marrow's Song (SoH)... I think there were a few quested drops with this delay also.

[Pins]

PPM is a calculated proc chance based on the actual % and weapon delay.  It is not changing the actual %.

[Paikis]

Then it's a display bug. Either way it still needs fixing.

[Beastmage]

It boggles me as to why there even needs to be a discussion about this.

1: "Hey 2 we should change bard epics to 4.0 speed.  It makes itemization easier because every scout will be looking for weapons of the same speed and I know what number to focus on when making a particularly good scout weapon."

2: "That doesn't sound like a bad idea, we might have to change some of the current choice offhands for them to 4.0 seconds, luckily theres only a few of them."

Is there any other logical way for the discussion to go?  Or is there just so much red tape that everything has to be pre-approved by a supervisor or commitee before a developer is able to work on it?

[Fyreflyte]

Beastmage wrote:

It boggles me as to why there even needs to be a discussion about this.

1: "Hey 2 we should change bard epics to 4.0 speed. It makes itemization easier because every scout will be looking for weapons of the same speed and I know what number to focus on when making a particularly good scout weapon."

2: "That doesn't sound like a bad idea, we might have to change some of the current choice offhands for them to 4.0 seconds, luckily theres only a few of them."

Is there any other logical way for the discussion to go? Or is there just so much red tape that everything has to be pre-approved by a supervisor or commitee before a developer is able to work on it?

In a perfect world, it would certainly be that easy =) Every change we make has the potential to have sweeping ramifications for both the class it directly affects, and for other classes' balance in relation to that class. So while I have the ability to alter the weapon speed on the mythical and other various 3.5 offhands, it's still judicious for me to discuss the change (and how it might impact the game) with other developers, or at very least to give myself time to consider it. It would be unwise to jump in and make every change that is suggested on the forums, as many of these tend to request the betterment of a single area of the game without giving proper consideration to other areas it might affect.I will bring this one up at my mechanics meeting, but I cannot promise any sort of changes in the near future. As I said before, I will let you know if anything is decided.

[Beastmage]

Fyreflyte wrote:

Beastmage wrote:

It boggles me as to why there even needs to be a discussion about this.

1: "Hey 2 we should change bard epics to 4.0 speed. It makes itemization easier because every scout will be looking for weapons of the same speed and I know what number to focus on when making a particularly good scout weapon."

2: "That doesn't sound like a bad idea, we might have to change some of the current choice offhands for them to 4.0 seconds, luckily theres only a few of them."

Is there any other logical way for the discussion to go? Or is there just so much red tape that everything has to be pre-approved by a supervisor or commitee before a developer is able to work on it?

In a perfect world, it would certainly be that easy =) Every change we make has the potential to have sweeping ramifications for both the class it directly affects, and for other classes' balance in relation to that class. So while I have the ability to alter the weapon speed on the mythical and other various 3.5 offhands, it's still judicious for me to discuss the change (and how it might impact the game) with other developers, or at very least to give myself time to consider it. It would be unwise to jump in and make every change that is suggested on the forums, as many of these tend to request the betterment of a single area of the game without giving proper consideration to other areas it might affect.I will bring this one up at my mechanics meeting, but I cannot promise any sort of changes in the near future. As I said before, I will let you know if anything is decided.

Could you explain to us what sort of negative impact changing the delay of a weapon might have?  That would be a bit of insight to mmo development that would be very interesting to me.

If the change had any significance to the other aspects of the weapon I would agree with you that bringing it up to others would be a wise choice.  This is just one of those subjects that looks like it should be a no brainer, before epics most bards used 4.0 delay weapons anyways.  The only reason 3.5 ever became somewhat popular is because of the epic speed.

[thecynic315]

Fyreflyte wrote:

Beastmage wrote:

It boggles me as to why there even needs to be a discussion about this.

1: "Hey 2 we should change bard epics to 4.0 speed. It makes itemization easier because every scout will be looking for weapons of the same speed and I know what number to focus on when making a particularly good scout weapon."

2: "That doesn't sound like a bad idea, we might have to change some of the current choice offhands for them to 4.0 seconds, luckily theres only a few of them."

Is there any other logical way for the discussion to go? Or is there just so much red tape that everything has to be pre-approved by a supervisor or commitee before a developer is able to work on it?

In a perfect world, it would certainly be that easy =) Every change we make has the potential to have sweeping ramifications for both the class it directly affects, and for other classes' balance in relation to that class. So while I have the ability to alter the weapon speed on the mythical and other various 3.5 offhands, it's still judicious for me to discuss the change (and how it might impact the game) with other developers, or at very least to give myself time to consider it. It would be unwise to jump in and make every change that is suggested on the forums, as many of these tend to request the betterment of a single area of the game without giving proper consideration to other areas it might affect.I will bring this one up at my mechanics meeting, but I cannot promise any sort of changes in the near future. As I said before, I will let you know if anything is decided.

So when you changed it from 3.5 to 4.0 how were Bards missed in the discussions with the other developers that you say you would have had to have had before making the change?

[Fyreflyte]

Androw@Najena wrote:

Fyreflyte wrote:So when you changed it from 3.5 to 4.0 how were Bards missed in the discussions with the other developers that you say you would have had to have had before making the change?

There was no discussion. I was upgrading a bunch of items from Sebilis, and this one (having no stats to support any function but pure scout dps) was min/maxed for general scout desirability. The original 3.5 delay was not specifically aimed at bards.

[Marillion]

Fyreflyte wrote:

Androw@Najena wrote:

Fyreflyte wrote:So when you changed it from 3.5 to 4.0 how were Bards missed in the discussions with the other developers that you say you would have had to have had before making the change?

There was no discussion. I was upgrading a bunch of items from Sebilis, and this one (having no stats to support any function but pure scout dps) was min/maxed for general scout desirability. The original 3.5 delay was not specifically aimed at bards.

So the next question that comes to mind is, were you at the meeting where the all the scout epics but the bard epic were decided to be 4.0 or have access to the minutes of that meeting if it was before your time as itemguy. Also the delay on the bard epic was brought up a number of times as soon as the epics were in progress (as people got links to them before the quests were finished) and no reason was given as to way it was 3.5 vs 4.0. As stated PPM is all decided on the delay of the weapon and would be recal'ed if the delay was changed based on the new delay. So i see nothing that could possible have any impact on the game ... considering a bard can wield 2x4.0 weapons with all the same buffs if he wanted and there isn't a class limiter on delay of a weapon. I guess someone from mechanic's could give us some feedback on what this change could possible do if changed.

[Fyreflyte]

Marillion wrote:

Fyreflyte wrote:So the next question that comes to mind is, were you at the meeting where the all the scout epics but the bard epic were decided to be 4.0 or have access to the minutes of that meeting if it was before your time as itemguy.

No, I was handling Legendary itemization at that time, and had no hand in the epics. Hence, I do not know why a 3.5 delay was decided upon.

[Jasuo]

And just where were you on the night of October 14th 1994!!!!!  Huh huh, wise guy eh..

[Fyreflyte]

...in the library, with the lead pipe O.o

[thecynic315]

Fyreflyte wrote:

Androw@Najena wrote:

Fyreflyte wrote:So when you changed it from 3.5 to 4.0 how were Bards missed in the discussions with the other developers that you say you would have had to have had before making the change?

There was no discussion. I was upgrading a bunch of items from Sebilis, and this one (having no stats to support any function but pure scout dps) was min/maxed for general scout desirability. The original 3.5 delay was not specifically aimed at bards.

But you said every change needs discussion because: "[of the] ramifications for both the class it directly affects, and for other classes' balance in relation to that class."So were you being unclear before, or are you being unclear now? Cause I am confused as to why the Bards epics cannont just be changed to 4.0 sec dealy as Trakanon's Tooth was.

[Fyreflyte]

Androw@Najena wrote:

But you said every change needs discussion because: "[of the] ramifications for both the class it directly affects, and for other classes' balance in relation to that class."So were you being unclear before, or are you being unclear now? Cause I am confused as to why the Bards epics cannont just be changed to 4.0 sec dealy as Trakanon's Tooth was.

You're confusing two different statements I made. In one, I said that every change could affect other (unintended) parts of the game; that's the one you quoted above. In the other, I said I needed to discuss changes to the mythicals because I did not create them, am not now in charge of them, and do not know what the reasoning behind their delay is. I have already stated that I will ask about this and will bring up the possibility of changing it. You are, however, going to have to demonstrate a little patience.

[thecynic315]

Fyreflyte wrote:

Androw@Najena wrote:

But you said every change needs discussion because: "[of the] ramifications for both the class it directly affects, and for other classes' balance in relation to that class."So were you being unclear before, or are you being unclear now? Cause I am confused as to why the Bards epics cannont just be changed to 4.0 sec dealy as Trakanon's Tooth was.

You're confusing two different statements I made. In one, I said that every change could affect other (unintended) parts of the game; that's the one you quoted above. In the other, I said I needed to discuss changes to the mythicals because I did not create them, am not now in charge of them, and do not know what the reasoning behind their delay is. I have already stated that I will ask about this and will bring up the possibility of changing it. You are, however, going to have to demonstrate a little patience.

ahhhhh my bad then. Also please inqure about the Bard EPICS, not just the mythical versions as both Bard epics suffer from the 3.5sec delay

[Jasuo]

jesus h kid, they're still relatively the same weapon, if the delay on one is changed obviously the other would change...give him a [Removed for Content] break.