DPS -- where are you at?

[SugarGirl]

I just want to make sure I'm on par with other dirges when it comes to groups. I usually run with a zerker tank, COercer, Temp/INQ, Assassin, Fury, and me. I'm level 80 and have Legendary+ gear and all Ad3 abilities. In most group parses I run around 600-700 dps. Of course, I'm concentrating more on debuffs than dps, but am I on par with what other dirges are doing or am I slacking somewhere?

[Rattfa]

hmm if I recall, I was doing 800-1200 dps in groups, peaking at probably around 1500. the amount of debuffing I did varied depending on the encounter. Had mostly legendary gear with all ad3s. Only played my dirge at 80 for a month or so before I retired him so I have no idea if that was any good or not.

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

I rarely get parsed in groups, but this looks pretty reasonable to me.  Heroic battles tend to be so short that a dirge can hardly get cranked up before it's over. 

That being said, you should look at your routine and see if you're debuffing too much.  Remember that a debuff that lands as the fight is ending does no good at all.  My rule of thumb is that if I'm debuffing for more than half the battle I'm debuffing too much.  If the healers are just sitting there eating bon-bons, omit debuffs like Daro's that are essentially defensive.  If the mob's dropping in 10 seconds but the tank goes red in that time, drop Clara's and focus on things like Cheap Shot and Daro's and Lanet's that limit incoming damage. 

Your group setup looks very secure, with two healers and a coercer.  I'd omit anything defensive from the routine, myself, and try to generate more firepower myself. 

Tell us how it works out. 

Best,

Whysp

[Dagny]

In a short battle my DPS is pretty low because the zerkers kill stuff to fast for me

 But on raids and in longer fights currently I'm averaging around 600-800 with not particularly awesome gear.  Once i get better items I expect that will go up quite a bit.  The other dirge I raid with parses over 1k.  (I think he averages around 1200 but I'm not swearing to that)

[gatrm]

Fights in groups, generally don't last long and unless the healer(s) is/are having trouble keeping up with the damage, I'll just fire off clara's and get on with the dps.  If it resists, I don't try to make it stick, I just get on with it.  Granted, if the group is having trouble killing stuff, I focus more on debuffing, but if there isn't a problem killing the stuff, dps is going to be far more important than debuffing.

Depending on the buffs you are getting in that group (at the very minimum, you should be gettting impetus), 800-1k should be easy even with legendary gear. 

I usually hit zw in most group instances of around 1.4k (range is usually anywhere from 1.1k-2.2k).  I do raid and have a few nice fabled pieces...I have been rather lucky in shard of hate...but there is very good group and quest gear available which should allow you to hit at least 1k.

[JerronBlacksilver]

gatrm wrote:

Fights in groups, generally don't last long and unless the healer(s) is/are having trouble keeping up with the damage, I'll just fire off clara's and get on with the dps. If it resists, I don't try to make it stick, I just get on with it. Granted, if the group is having trouble killing stuff, I focus more on debuffing, but if there isn't a problem killing the stuff, dps is going to be far more important than debuffing.

Depending on the buffs you are getting in that group (at the very minimum, you should be gettting impetus), 800-1k should be easy even with legendary gear.

I usually hit zw in most group instances of around 1.4k (range is usually anywhere from 1.1k-2.2k). I do raid and have a few nice fabled pieces...I have been rather lucky in shard of hate...but there is very good group and quest gear available which should allow you to hit at least 1k.

This sounds exactly like my strategy, and generally I was 1.4k zw in groups. I rarely raid, though I do have my mythical (because my Guild is AWESOME and for some odd reason they love me), but I haven't really parsed any zones since I got it  and the rest of my gear is pretty much the best instance gear I can scrounge up, along with a couple raid pieces, as you can see if you click my baner All AD3's, and a few masters that aren't all that important.

[Kyrsten]

In instances 1.5 - 2k or better, in raid I'm usually hitting close to 3k or more (depending on zone, buffs, group makeup, etc.)

[thecynic315]

Doing about 1.2-1.5 ZW, can hit 2k+ on some fights here and there. Only raid gear is the DT access wrist item. Mosly last tiers Masters or AD3 for anything that was on a 14 lvl + upgrade. All gear is from the heroic instances and from the quests in RoK.Oh and I tend to only use debuffs on nameds, or just clara's in harder zones like RE2.

[SugarGirl]

Awesome guys.. thanks for the info. Sound slike my problem lies in my debuffing and CA rotation. I switched a coupel things up in Maide's this morning and was getting around 1300. Of course, the healers ahead to work a little harder

 I did notice some downsides to doing this... for one, overall DPS of the group dropped a bit, but the zerkers DPS went up since I wasn't debuff the mobs' attack speed so much. I suppose this helped him keep aggro to some degree. Assassin's DPS was down by a small margin. I'm going to keep playing with it a bit, but I think I figured out what I was doing wrong (or right, depending on what you consider the role of the dirge to be of course)

Thanks

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

Um. 

Does anyone else think that the combination of 'making the healers work a bit harder' and 'overall dps of the group dropped a bit' isn't spelling success? 

It's your call of course; I myself enjoy clawing my way up the raid-parse; but within a fairly strict set of priorities that puts debuffing at the top, rezzing second, and then flailing away. 

I've always considered everyone's role, not just that of dirges, to be making the group succeed.  We've just got a more complicated job than most.  Let's face facts; give or take a stun or two, an assassin's role is to put hurt on the mob as fast as she can. 

Perhaps some of your more defensive debuffs were allowing the fury to dps more; a well-specced fury can put out some significant damage. 

Whysp

[SugarGirl]

Edited -- This was misquoted.

[gatrm]

SugarGirl wrote:

Heh heh.. I see you caught on to that quick Whysp. My priority in group is to make everyone's job easier... sure, my DPS migth noght shimmer and shine like an assassin's, but by sacrificing my name in the parse, I enable the group overall to get a better parse.... at least that's what I've found.  It's the dilema of the Dirge.. we can shine... or we can make the group shine. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

Except that you don't have to sacrifice your dps to ensure the Assassin is doing max dps.  Start out with your Int line CA (self skills buff) then cast clara's....With degredations and 8 points in Alegro, Clara's takes a whole .93 seconds to cast and lasts a minute and a half.  Clara's is the only debuff that is gonna affect the assassin's dps...the magical debuff won't make a significant impact on the poison damage...And the rest of the fight you are dpsing.  Nothing you did should have affected the amount of dps the assassin did.  There's absolutely no reason that you can't shine and make others shine. 

I don't generally use that casting order, because in the groups I normally do instances with fights don't last long enough to worry about debuffing, except for in RE2.

I wouldn't call a dirges role complicated.  Situational, absolutely.  If your group needs all the debuffs to clear the content, then by all means.  However You shouldn't sacrifice your dps by focusing on debuffing so that a healer can dps instead of healing. 

Whysprr, you seem to be talking more about raids than groups, and yes debuffs should be in on raids, on names anyway.  Trash kinda depends on your raidforce, but Clara's is up on trash also.

Heh, and as a healer it's better to be kept on your toes, otherwise you might get caught not paying attention.  Sometimes it's actually better to have to "work a bit harder". On my warden I tend to not pay as much attention if there is either another healer or nothing to heal.  Again, this is situational as some healers need you to use all the debuffs so they can keep up with incoming damage. 

Ultimately the point is to continually analyze what your group is capable of and making adjustments...both in the buffs you use and in your debuffs, dps, or Marr forbid your heal...If your group can handle it without all the debuffing, go offensive.  In some groups, you may even be the dps because some dps classes don't have a clue what they are doing.  (I've joined pugs with a necro (and pet) doing a whole 600 dps and that's at level 80). 

(Afterthought) To give you a better example of my dps...In most of my groups while I am doing the zw 1.4k I mentioned earlier, the Assassin, conjuror, swash will all do around 2.5k-3.5k zw.  In pugs, or if the regular dps is absent, I am generally at the top or near the top of the parse, and in the pugs, I will generally pour on the dps because all the debuffs in the world won't help if no one is around to kill the mob.

[Bry]

Whysprr@Kithicor wrote:

I myself enjoy clawing my way up the raid-parse; but within a fairly strict set of priorities that puts debuffing at the top, rezzing second, and then flailing away.

I take it on a case by case basis.  If you organize your raid and communicate with the other bards you only need to cast 1 or 2 debuffs each depending on your set up.  As far as rezzing goes, on trash fights where the healers are dpsing more than they are healing Ill usualy let them rez.  I am doing more dps than them so it wouldnt make sence for me to stop to rez instead of them.  On tougher fights when they are all spamming heals I will rez away, in that case their healing is more valuable to the raid than my dps so it makes sence.  Exceptions for if the MT goes down or a key healer, then I will try to get them up no matter what asap.  Of coarse Im doing other utility stuff like gravitas and trying to time cob but none of that should really take away from your ability to dps effectivly.

[AScarlato]

At level 80 with 140 AA, it really depends on the party.

In raid-geared parties where there is chain pulling and everything dies right away, my dps is lower.  Probably around 1K - 1.2K.  Usually this is because of our limited number of damage CA's / Songs and them not all being up when something is pulled.

In slower parties where I (shockingly) am one of the better dpsers, I typically parse in groups 1.5-2.2K.  If I'm very lucky and get an illusionist who will give me IA (which sometimes I get after parsing against other scouts), I can get around 2.5ish in a group instance.  One time I got over 3K in a single group, not really sure how lol.

In raids it really depends.  Am I constantly rezzing?  Are my buffs resisted over and over?  Is constant gravitas necessary?  Are other people stealing my Swindler's Luck HO I need toraise my accuracy?  Anyway I can range from almost nothing (when on Gravitas and constant rez duty...I am one of those dirges who will take it upon myself to rez so the healers can focus), to 3ish K.

My gear is all from Heroic Instances.  I very very very recently got my dirge his first T8 Raid Item - Betrayal's Song, which I suppose would be similar to having won a Carotidcutter from COA (which just will not drop for me).  I imagine if I was blessed with more raid gear than that ONE item it'd be higher.

[SugarGirl]

Thanks for the help folks.... I think I've finally got it fixed now Last night, in Maiden's I was parsing a pretty consistent 1K-2K using DW Carotidcutter and Jade Reaver. I switched up my casting routine, but was still able to keep everything debuffed. The Jade reaver helped out alot by redusing casting times too.

I'm going to do a little respeccing on my AA's as well, I found some wasted points that I'm going to reallocate down the INT line.

Should be getting my epic soon too, so that will make a big difference.

[Milaevo]

I have adept 3 and a couple masters (and I mean a couple 2-3) and a mix of Rok solo crit gear and instance gear and a couple T1 raid pieces. Fabled Epic with Serrated Segmentor and parse 2-3k consistently in group or raid. Solo I drop down to approx 1-1.4k on kited fights and 1.5-2.2k on close stun solo fights.

[SirensSong]

Yeah, this sounds pretty good.  I usually do 1-2k.  I have fabled epic and carotidcutter, and my spells are all ad3.  My gear is pretty good for a non-raiding dirge, and I have a couple of good fabled pieces sprinkled in.

[SugarGirl]

Switched out my AA (124 points ATM) to the following since I am now DWing

AGI -4-1

STA 4-4-4-8

WIS 4-4-6-8-2

INT 4-6-4-6

Dirge Tree:

Maxed Degredations

Enhanced Stealth: 5

Enhanced Brias: 5

Enhanced Nox: 5

Enhanced CoB: 5

Luck of the Dirge

 and I will spend the my last 16 points getting Magnetic note... mostly so I can stick the mob to the nearest scout that's [Removed for Content] me off

I'm thinking this new build should boost DPS by a tad considering the extra attack from Rythm Blade, plus the skill boost as well as the extra 15% DPS I get from INT line on Rhiana's. I didn't get to test it much in group, but what little I did solo, I'm doing much better.

Thanks for all the input. I'll see if I can get some hard numbers later.

P.S., I have found Socerer's Alclarity and Sorcerer's Recover to be a Dirge's best friend.

[Hugsnkissums]

Granted gear and AAs do help to increase your DPS, but if you're looking for a solid way to do better I'd highly recommend you download the ACT program and get the double attack plug-in for it. That plug in works well to help you time your auto attacks with an audible sound. You might be surprised how much DPS you're unintentionally missing out on because you're quing your CAs too early.  

[Faiille]

Epic does make a big difference. I don't have ACT up, but we have a parse website for our raids so I can only give my raid parses vs. group. Right now with mythical I'm averaging about 3k zonewide. I've gotten 4.7k in one trash fight, my highest. My ZW goes lower though, as we dirges are responsible for being the main rezzers in a fight.

[SugarGirl]

Hugsnkissums wrote:

Granted gear and AAs do help to increase your DPS, but if you're looking for a solid way to do better I'd highly recommend you download the ACT program and get the double attack plug-in for it. That plug in works well to help you time your auto attacks with an audible sound. You might be surprised how much DPS you're unintentionally missing out on because you're quing your CAs too early.  

I've had ACT for as long as I can remember and I have the dinger set up for double attack and auto attack. I can't say that I always time it perfect, but I doubt I am missing too many autoattacks from casting. I generally don't Queue my CA's. I pause between them to allow for autoattack, which yields roughly the same DPS as trying to time it all perfectly.

[draxhellion]

SugarGirl wrote:

I just want to make sure I'm on par with other dirges when it comes to groups. I usually run with a zerker tank, COercer, Temp/INQ, Assassin, Fury, and me. I'm level 80 and have Legendary+ gear and all Ad3 abilities. In most group parses I run around 600-700 dps. Of course, I'm concentrating more on debuffs than dps, but am I on par with what other dirges are doing or am I slacking somewhere?

Upgrade yer ad3's to master for one.

[SugarGirl]

draxhellion wrote:

SugarGirl wrote:

I just want to make sure I'm on par with other dirges when it comes to groups. I usually run with a zerker tank, COercer, Temp/INQ, Assassin, Fury, and me. I'm level 80 and have Legendary+ gear and all Ad3 abilities. In most group parses I run around 600-700 dps. Of course, I'm concentrating more on debuffs than dps, but am I on par with what other dirges are doing or am I slacking somewhere?

Upgrade yer ad3's to master for one.

LOL... so much easier said than done. I run instances every chance I get. I have never had a dirge master drop for me in 80 levels. I jump on every PUR that I can get, but they are few and far between in RoK... and when they do happen, the guild that sponsers them usually claims all Masters for their guild and then participants are allowed to roll for gear drops. Dirge masters are seldom less that 40pp on the broker too, and I'm just a broke musician.

WOrking on it though. I have everything AD3 at the moment. Hopefully my guild will start raiding on a more regular basis so I can have some better hopes of getting a few masters. 

[Swifty]

One thing to remember, you are a support unit. You are in the group to let them make the parse. Groups and Raids need you to help them do more DPS, a Dirge making the parse is not as important.

First and formost you play a Dirge cuase you want to have fun.

[thecynic315]

Swifty wrote:

One thing to remember, you are a support unit. You are in the group to let them make the parse. Groups and Raids need you to help them do more DPS, a Dirge making the parse is not as important.

First and formost you play a Dirge cuase you want to have fun.

running buffs for the group youre in and doing DPS are not mutualy exclusive. The same buffs you run to help the groups DPS boost your own.Just by playing around with gear, casting order and CA/Spell upgrades you should be able to do the kinds of numbers being discussed here while at the same time making the group suppa-ubar-awsome-o.OH and lastly, theres 3 types in this game; tanks, healers, DPS. Theres no such class as support or crowd control.

[Swifty]

You are so right about the buffs or songs we play. How ever I see a lotof groups looking for a utility class (i.e. Dirge Troub)

[Moonbaby]

Androw@Najena wrote:

OH and lastly, theres 3 types in this game; tanks, healers, DPS. Theres no such class as support or crowd control.

lol, well said. it surely seems that way

[thecynic315]

Moonbaby@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Androw@Najena wrote:

OH and lastly, theres 3 types in this game; tanks, healers, DPS. Theres no such class as support or crowd control.

lol, well said. it surely seems that way

No it SEEMS that there are Guards, DPS that can heal a little and DPS that can heal a lot.

How ever I see a lotof groups looking for a utility class (i.e. Dirge Troub)

which is odd as all but what, 2 classes, have lots of group buffs so what exactly is utility in EQ2?

[Ka]

This is what it looks like at the top:

PS - Group was Inq, Troub, Illus, Ranger, Wizard.  Zone = Chamber of Destiny Trash

[Oakum]

gatrm wrote:

Heh, and as a healer it's better to be kept on your toes, otherwise you might get caught not paying attention.  Sometimes it's actually better to have to "work a bit harder". On my warden I tend to not pay as much attention if there is either another healer or nothing to heal.  Again, this is situational as some healers need you to use all the debuffs so they can keep up with incoming damage. 

A healer always has to be on their toes, especially a warden since if the other healer goes LD, the group will know who wasnt paying attention, lol. Now if your a healer, and a lot of healing is not required,  a healer should be doing their secondary abilities to help the group kill quicker.

Druids DPS (yes, your warden is a druid even if SOE tends to forget this, lol), shaman should be debuffing, and clerics shoudl be casting their temp buffs that help the group. Even non druid healers should be nuking, meleeing if they are not required to heal just to help the group get through a zone faster unless they are conserving power for some reason. Even then they can still autoattack.  

For the dirge, if the debuffs are not required, then be DPSing your heart out IMO and debuff only when required. I am not a dirge though so take my opinion or leave it as you feel fit.  I just think that a group does better when the players in it do EVERYTHING they can as smartly as possible to kept the group alive and killing as fast as possible. I could be wrong though.