Enable intraclass betrayal/change

[Oh]

Devout Disciple wrote:

Ohiv wrote:

Let's say SK's are the flavor of the month. OK so everyone betrays to an sk and then spends all of that plat to get their ad3's and then start working on their Masters. Now the next GU hits guess what it's now Monks that are the best of the best, soo again everyone changes to a monk rinse repeate. The next GU doesn't change balance but the one after that changes it so that Guardians are on top. Rinse repeate.

This is probably going to be another obvious reply but why do you think that happens?  It's because people want to feel powerful as they progress in the game and not weaker. 

My class description says in it, "inflicts pain and suffering".  As a SK currently I can say I'm not feeling all that I can be in that description.  So much for the more offensive crusader.

People play these games to escape the constraints of real life and one can argue our physc problems with that but it's nevertheless said.

See the problem I have is at best you are trying to apply a bandage to a gaping wound that I personally think will only cause more grief then actually resolve. Let's take your example for the moment. Now I am not an expert on SK's but I do know that it was some recient changes that caused alot of problems with the class. So let me just say it was a recient GU and call it good enough for now. SO let's say that this feature just happen to exist. You and others might change your class from SK to . OK now since it was a GU that changed this either perception or reality not going into that semantic it is just as easy for another GU to change it again. SO do you really want to go through the effort to a) get new gear, b) redo and get all new spells everytime a new GU comes out? Do you call that fun? I frankly find it deplorable to even want to consider doing that once let alone doing it multiple times. The root of the problem is that SoE is changing fundementals of the class which they may or maynot realize they are doing. Being able to swap within fighters isn't the real solution. IMO the real solution is that SoE apparently can't balance out 24 classes so let's cut it down for them and make it 12 classes. But like I posted earlier which you seem to also agree that just isn't a very prudent thing to do for multiple reasons. SO while you have a very valid issue with your class, and this "solution" might seem good, think about it. Like you said alot of folks play this game for fun, and frankly being forced to change classes, regear up, respell up just cause SoE couldn't get there stuff together sounds alot like NOT FUN to me.

[Soefje]

StormCinder wrote:

Phaedrella wrote:

To the OP: I question your premise that there are many people dissatisfied with class balance.  I've seen a couple of threads here and there, and can count up maybe 7 or 8 separate posters to the forums that believe there is a balance problem (of course I don't count all the "most of my guild" posts as separate players.)  Among those, most would prefer that their chosen class gets 'fixed' rather than change class.  However, since 'balance' is in the eye of the beholder, I believe we can expect further minor 'tweaking' rather than radical changes to game mechanics.I mean, taken further...allowing the class change you seek, for the reason you state would be an admission by SOE that there are preferred classes that everyone should play.  If that's the case, then why not just eliminate the others?  If 'many people' are going to switch to the one desired class within the archtype, why not just speed things up and force the change?SC

I am betting that a very large number of SK would betray to guardian.  We are so frustrated right now.  Especially if we had a way to betray back if the class is ever fixed.

[Soulforged_Unre]

Hi, my name is Soulforged, and I respond to this thread with a huge NO.My reasons:1. As it as been stated, the coding doesn't allow betrayals from one archtype (brawler, enchanter, etc), to another, and like it or not, it would be a major [I cannot control my vocabulary]-storm to change.2. We already have enough complete "noobs" at level 80 who haven't the slightest idea how their class and the other classes actually work, and that's after they leveled themselves up to 80. To get to 80 with another class, and then change to an all new class, would lead to an all new level of unskilled (I hate to use the term, but) Idiots who can't play at all.3. Ease of leveling use. You can almost level to 80 with a brawler in your sleep (You can level to 80 with a summoner in your sleep), yet some classes such as templar, and guardian will have much more trouble, and it isn't fair to those who levelled up appropriately.4. Some classes would cease to exist, for example: You wouldn't see any more SK's, berserkers, or bruiser's anywhere at top levels.

[Phaedrella]

Soulforged_Unrest wrote:

Hi, my name is Soulforged, and I respond to this thread with a huge NO.My reasons:1. As it as been stated, the coding doesn't allow betrayals from one archtype (brawler, enchanter, etc), to another, and like it or not, it would be a major [I cannot control my vocabulary]-storm to change.Sorry, but I get a little skeptical whenever SOE "states" things.2. We already have enough complete "noobs" at level 80 who haven't the slightest idea how their class and the other classes actually work, and that's after they leveled themselves up to 80. To get to 80 with another class, and then change to an all new class, would lead to an all new level of unskilled (I hate to use the term, but) Idiots who can't play at all.Say what? Again, nobody's suggesting that an archetype-changer ought to keep his or her existing level. What would be the harm in encouraging L80 noobs to learn another class from the ground up? Sorry, but your point is totally counterintuitive.3. Ease of leveling use. You can almost level to 80 with a brawler in your sleep (You can level to 80 with a summoner in your sleep), yet some classes such as templar, and guardian will have much more trouble, and it isn't fair to those who levelled up appropriately.See my above remarks about sentimentality, persona, etc.4. Some classes would cease to exist, for example: You wouldn't see any more SK's, berserkers, or bruiser's anywhere at top levels.Likewise, this would not be the fault of players. Moreover, attrition through retirement is already thinning out outdated subclasses at the top levels.

[Nole]

I propose a simpler solution... more character slots.

Don't get me wrong, I might switch some of my lowbie's classes if this were implemented (high level tradeskiller, adventure class that I decided I don't want to play), but I still think the idea is terrible.

[Fyranaer]

Aiya@Lucan DLere wrote:

I propose a simpler solution... more character slots.

Don't get me wrong, I might switch some of my lowbie's classes if this were implemented (high level tradeskiller, adventure class that I decided I don't want to play), but I still think the idea is terrible.

I like this solution as well.  You can pay the equivalent of a second account (minus the cost of the game) to get several extra slots, but I hate the station pass model.  I want to buy single character slots for a flat fee like other game companies have successfully implemented.  Unfortunately this isn't likely to ever happen.   I think trying change the current model of the station pass would be a disaster.

[Nole]

I pay for station access, and still wish I had more slots. I have one of each crafter, but some of them are characters I no longer play. Also they're all on the same server. I still also have a crusader which I'm neither playing nor deleting since it's not possible to be that class anymore

[liveja]

Soulforged_Unrest wrote:

1. As it as been stated, the coding doesn't allow betrayals from one archtype (brawler, enchanter, etc), to another

If you had actually READ THE OP, you might not have posted this complete Straw Man. Here's a hint: NOBODY in this thread has advocated changing ARCHETYPES.

2. We already have enough complete "noobs" at level 80

If I betray my Swashy today, I'll be a complete n00b of a level 80 Brigand. The mere fact that Brigands are the evil counterpart to Swashies does not mean that a highly experienced Swashy will automatically translate to a highly experienced Brigand.

4. Some classes would cease to exist, for example: You wouldn't see any more SK's, berserkers, or bruiser's anywhere at top levels.

Right, because obviously, right now, every SK, Bruiser, & Zerker has already betrayed. What? You mean they HAVEN'T? WOW. I wonder why.

I couldn't care less about the "ease of leveling" argument, since I think it's irrelevant NOW.

IMO, the only real reason to not make this change is the difficulty of coding. Otherwise, all of the other doom-&-gloom scenarios (OMG too many n00bs!!!) are for players to deal with. Good players learn to deal with it; not so good players cry about how it's all "unfair" & move to WoW or AoC or some other flavor-of-the-month game.

[Junaru]

There are a lot of issues a change like this would cause. First think of all the quests that give good items. If I changed my Swashbucker to a Ranger I would want to pick a different item for the Thugga quest line. If SOE didn't let you reselect there would be a million posts on here asking for the ability to reselect their items and then cause more work for SOE.I can see all kinds of issues with gear if you could switch. Just look at plate tanks to Brawlers.

[Phaedrella]

Junaru wrote:

There are a lot of issues a change like this would cause. First think of all the quests that give good items. If I changed my Swashbucker to a Ranger I would want to pick a different item for the Thugga quest line. If SOE didn't let you reselect there would be a million posts on here asking for the ability to reselect their items and then cause more work for SOE.

That would be part of the sacrifice involved, along with the reversion to level 1.

[wajamacallit]

How about the next reward item being a potion or simple quest starter that results in a huge XP and AA boost.   Some limitation would have to be placed obviously, such as no trade and only usable below a certain level, to prevent exploitation at the next level cap raise.   I suggest enough Xp to take a level 20 up to maybe 65-68.   This would still allow plenty of opportunity to learn the class before end game content without the drugury (to me) of repeating zones and quests.

[StormCinder]

wajamacallit wrote:

How about the next reward item being a potion or simple quest starter that results in a huge XP and AA boost.   Some limitation would have to be placed obviously, such as no trade and only usable below a certain level, to prevent exploitation at the next level cap raise.   I suggest enough Xp to take a level 20 up to maybe 65-68.   This would still allow plenty of opportunity to learn the class before end game content without the drugury (to me) of repeating zones and quests.

You forgot your /sarcasm tags (I hope)To Soefje:  I've been playing an SK for 3+ years and have never had a problem and have no desire to change classes.  I fail to see what all the fuss is about?  YOU don't like your class?  You and 6 other people don't like your class?  There are nearly 165,000 SKs.  If you show me that half +1 want to change to betray, I'll eat my hat.SCEdit: in case this is just another raiding thread:  there are 2,012 lvl 80 SKs, so if this argument is about raiding, then I'll accept statements from 1,006 disgruntled lvl80 SKs

[wajamacallit]

Actually it was not a sarcastic suggestion.   I am not proposing the ability to change class, just that veteren players have a 1 time abiity to quickly level a new toon and get back playing with thier friends rather that repeat content.

[Noaani]

With the current state of the game, class balance in particular, I am neither for nor against this idea (I have been vehemantly against it in the past).

However...

If the dev team were to consider it, actually implementing it would not be at all hard. Add an NPC to Haven that initiates a quest to change class (I would vote to be able to change it to any class, reasons will be obvious).

The NPC you hail  to  start the quest gives you the option of betraying to any of the avalible classes, which starts a quest sending you to the appropriate alingment for you rnew chosen class (or non alingment specific for neutral classes). The quest you are given teaches some lore about the class, some of its strengths and weaknesses (much like the original Hallmark quests did), and heads you in the direction of the city you need to be in. Once faction is gained with the new city (which may force a standard class betrayal as is currently in the game) you are then told to finish off the quest you started in Haven.

At the point of finishing, you are stripped naked, and find yourself a level 3 character of your chosen class.

In terms of what the game engine needs to do is 'simply' automate the following...

/save character appearance/save character name/save tradeskill level/save house setting/save bank/save inventory (post being stripped)/save coin

/delete toon

/create new toon

/load appearance/load character name/load tradeskill level/load house setting/load bank/load inventory (post being stripped)/load coin

The player has a new toon, keeping everything not specifically related to adventuring, but they are of a totally new class.

Due to being level 3 (I picked 3 because a level 1 toon in Freeport or Qeynos can sometimes find it hard) they still have 77 levels to gain in order to learn the new class.

[Yimway]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Soulforged_Unrest wrote:

1. As it as been stated, the coding doesn't allow betrayals from one archtype (brawler, enchanter, etc), to another

If you had actually READ THE OP, you might not have posted this complete Straw Man. Here's a hint: NOBODY in this thread has advocated changing ARCHETYPES.

IMO, the only real reason to not make this change is the difficulty of coding. Otherwise, all of the other doom-&-gloom scenarios (OMG too many n00bs!!!) are for players to deal with. Good players learn to deal with it; not so good players cry about how it's all "unfair" & move to WoW or AoC or some other flavor-of-the-month game.

For the record, I do advocate changing archtypes if you desire.  Just nock your level down some when you do.It is a complete farse to suggest it requires 80 levels of solo quest to learn a new archtype.  Any motivated player can reach proficiency in any class with in a week or two of playing and doing a bit of solid research.People being good players or not really isn't a factor of how many hours they've logged on their toon.  Its more about pushing the envelope, doing research, networking with those that are clearly playing the class the best, duplicating what they do, then learning to personalize that style for you.  Doing content in the game itself is about the slowest way to min/max your class performance.  It starts with research, then applying that research, then gearing up.  I really don't feel it takes anything more than this.

[Ravaan]

Soulforged_Unrest wrote:

2. We already have enough complete "noobs" at level 80 who haven't the slightest idea how their class and the other classes actually work, and that's after they leveled themselves up to 80. To get to 80 with another class, and then change to an all new class, would lead to an all new level of unskilled (I hate to use the term, but) Idiots who can't play at all.

it always cracks me up when i see this nonsense. you act as if it takes rocket science to play this game when it really doesn't, this game is god aweful easy.

now maybe for people that suck at the game its hard but im sure the majority can probably learn a new class within a day or so if it takes them that long. And especially if its going within the same archtype, sorry but each subclass just doesn't play that different.

for example I play an inquisitor my guild was running RE2 they had a templar so i brought my wife's Fury we had 1 wipe and that was because the tank lagged into a room. I set my wifes buttons like i have on my inquisitor and to be honest i couldn't tell the difference.

now maybe going from say a brigand to a troub would be a bit more of a process but read some guilds, ask some guildies and you should be good to go in no time. its really not that complicated stop pretending it is.

[ZachSpastic]

Brigand to Troubador would be no big deal. The bards play just like rogues, except their dps sucks.

[Besual]

I'm completly against such option.Do you know why there are so few shaman? Because they are harder (or better slower) to (solo) level. With that option everyone would level up as a furie and then switch to defiler or cleric. Or solo level a bruiser and then switch to guard or level as swashi and jump to one of the bards. No thank you.You don't like your class? Just roll a new toon.

[Noaani]

Besual wrote:

I'm completly against such option.Do you know why there are so few shaman? Because they are harder (or better slower) to (solo) level. With that option everyone would level up as a furie and then switch to defiler or cleric. Or solo level a bruiser and then switch to guard or level as swashi and jump to one of the bards. No thank you.You don't like your class? Just roll a new toon.

If you actually READ the posts, you would see that the vast majority of people are asking for a reroll as a level 1 of a new class. This would mean that if you leveled up as a fury and then switched to a shaman, you would then have to level up as a shaman just as you did as a fury.

Again, I am not over for nor against this idea, but at least read the thread before you post...

[Besual]

Noaani wrote:

Besual wrote:

I'm completly against such option.Do you know why there are so few shaman? Because they are harder (or better slower) to (solo) level. With that option everyone would level up as a furie and then switch to defiler or cleric. Or solo level a bruiser and then switch to guard or level as swashi and jump to one of the bards. No thank you.You don't like your class? Just roll a new toon.

If you actually READ the posts, you would see that the vast majority of people are asking for a reroll as a level 1 of a new class. This would mean that if you leveled up as a fury and then switched to a shaman, you would then have to level up as a shaman just as you did as a fury.

Again, I am not over for nor against this idea, but at least read the thread before you post...

Oh, I did read the posts. SOME where suggesting to roll adventure back to level 1 and keep you tradeskill level. But the OP didn't nor did many other posters.

[Noaani]

Besual wrote:

Oh, I did read the posts. SOME where suggesting to roll adventure back to level 1 and keep you tradeskill level. But the OP didn't nor did many other posters.

So... when the OP said "Perhaps a character's adventure level could revert to level 1" s/he wasn't suggesting a rollback to level 1?

Man I get confused sometimes... curse my ability to read and comprehend!

[Katanalla]

if you could go to any class in your archetype, then every damned scout would betray to assassin.

[Noaani]

Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:

if you could go to any class in your archetype, then every damned scout would betray to assassin.

Not if you still had to level up from level 1.

And even if they didn't, if my rouges or bards changed to any class, I would boot them from the guild without hesitation.

[Yimway]

Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:

if you could go to any class in your archetype, then every damned scout would betray to assassin.

I disagree, they wouldn't get raid slots.  We're turning away assasins as frequently as tanks.The fact is, people started a given toon to provide specific roles.  I truely feel for summoner types that leveled up to be raid dps durring the KoS and EoF eras who are now stuck in what is an undesirable class.  Many of those players chose the class to be primary dps support, and now they're underneath utility classes.  Fixes take too long, so opening up the betrayal classes to allow people to switch to a working class for their desired role is a win/win in my eyes.And, if you truely value the player over anything else, I feel it opens up the arguement for more fluid betrayals, etc.  I don't like having to push people out of guild or consistently sit them out of raids cause they're on a class that in this expansion is undesirable over some other class. I'd much rather the game be adaptable enough for the player to change roles rather than losing a good player and recruiting a stranger.I understand some people feel like they've somehow 'paid their dues' leveling up X class.  But having leveled nearly every class, this arguement doesn't hold much weight to me.  All classes have a viable solo spec, some certainly have easy mode more than others, but none of them are actually 'hard' to solo providing you spec accordingly.I'm all for options that allow people to adapt and be flexible enough to allow players to fill a contributing rewarding role within their current player community.  I don't like the status quoe that encourages me to push dead weight and saturated classes out while recruiting current need classes.  The mechanics preasure me to valueing a class more than a player.  I'd much rather say to the player, we need you to betray to x to help out than to say you might be better off in another guild or spending the next 6 weeks re-rolling.I feel the next really successful MMO is going to recognize the player values enjoying time within his player community over all else, and whatever tools and mechanics that facilitate that experience is what will make an MMO successful or not.  Mechanics that contribute to issolationism, over combersom focus on classes, etc will become as out dated as zork.

[liveja]

Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:

if you could go to any class in your archetype, then every damned scout would betray to assassin.

Any Swashy that would betray to Assassin just to top the parse needs to be kicked in the you-know-whats, & then held up to public scorn & ridicule.

Swashy is about dominating the SEXEH, not the PARSE!

[sliderhouserules]

Yeah, I really like this idea. To bring back a bit of nostalgia you could get reset to level 19 if you were switching within your archetype, and level 9 if you were switching outside your archetype. I know that doesn't exactly match when the old class/subclass quests had you choose, but ...Another option I like is reset to level 40 when changing class/subclass, and reset to level 20 when changing archetype (if you're below those levels when you change, then your level isn't affected).As someone said, and I agree, this is a win/win. There are only a couple valid arguments against this, one of which is dev resource allocation, and to be honest, that is completely subjective and if enough people would take advantage of this then that *makes* it worth doing. And actually, I can't think of anything else that comes close to being valid to argue against this. Any given toon I have is a personal investment of my own. What I do with that toon (in this regard) really has no effect on other players, because I could simply delete this toon and make another toon that would have the exact same effect as this proposed feature (when it comes to impacting other players). Therefore, this feature does nothing more than empower me to retain portions of my investment into my character while being able to redo some of the choices I made in the past.