Skeleton rework

[Lysara]

I remember reading about 6 months back that all the models skeletons were getting redone for a new look and to make it easier to create new armor skins.

Is this still in the works or has it happened yet? If it's not live is there an eta?

 Thanks all

(havent played since early december but want a reason to come back)

[Aurumn]

no new developments announced and no ETA.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

What ever they do i hope they don't change things too much because i like the way the ratongas look right now. The leg style, face, exc... If they do what they did in Vanguard then everyone will look the same.

[Transen]

Last I read, it won't change any outward appearance.  What it will do is make it so they don't have to make as many of the exact same armor pieces visually.  Right now, each piece of armor that is introduced into the game has to be made several times so that every race and gender shows something worn when they equip it.

[Gnobrin]

Sorry for the lack of information, all.  There's seriously no new news since it's still "in the works".  The art team are working to make ANY change to your character be the biggest bang for the least possible visual change.  Remember too, we're talking about MANY varying body types and some of those are even between the differing sexes of each race...  It's a VERY intensive change, and something that's taken this long to work on, and even longer to complete.

~Gnobrin!

[orchard54]

I can't wait for this update when it comes rumor has it, toes and fingers will be more detailed?*crosses fingers*

[Mirander_1]

I got a question on this, Gnobrin;

I recall hearing sometime during Kunark's development, that the Sarnaks use the new, in-development skeletal system, rather than the old one, is this correct?  Also, the new version of the male Human was apparently shown off at the previous fan-faire, from what I heard.

Both these things would suggest to me that this new system isn't necessarily something that needs to put in all at once, but rather it's possible for it to be brought into the live game in a piecemeal fashion.

Is there any reason why the skeletal system couldn't be implemented on a race-by-race, gender-by-gender basis, as each race/gender is completed?  Doing so would at least provide reassurance to the playerbase that progress is being made on this; and as this revamp is supposedly making visible improvements to the character models, we would start seeing the overall artistic quality of the game continually improving.

[orchard54]

Mirander_1 wrote:

I got a question on this, Gnobrin;

I recall hearing sometime during Kunark's development, that the Sarnaks use the new, in-development skeletal system, rather than the old one, is this correct?  Also, the new version of the male Human was apparently shown off at the previous fan-faire, from what I heard.

Both these things would suggest to me that this new system isn't necessarily something that needs to put in all at once, but rather it's possible for it to be brought into the live game in a piecemeal fashion.

Is there any reason why the skeletal system couldn't be implemented on a race-by-race, gender-by-gender basis, as each race/gender is completed?  Doing so would at least provide reassurance to the playerbase that progress is being made on this; and as this revamp is supposedly making visible improvements to the character models, we would start seeing the overall artistic quality of the game continually improving.

This is a very good question. Also, I think that would be a great idea as well. Even in testing, if they release 1 or a few race/genders at a time, maybe the people on the test server can test it better on a per race/gender basis. Instead of releasing the full feature and find a ton of the new armor looks doesn't work with some races/genders.

[Qandor]

I find it ironic that we were told that the lack of variety in armor was due to the herculean task to fit them to so many body types. The skeletal revamp was dangled as a fix to this issue and now, approaching 4 years post release, we are still hearing that the "fix" is a herculean task. Bottom line is, approaching the 4 year mark, we still are sitting with the poorest variety of equipment of any game I have ever seen. About the only texture not slapped on the original robe model so far is polka dot so I'm expecting that will be the featured texture rehash for the next expansion.

[-Arctura-]

(( Like Gnobrin said, Its ALOT of work. AAAALOOOOTTTT of work.I do character modelling, unwrapping/texturing, rigging, animation, facial lip sync etc etc...   in my spare time. (but I use 3d STudio Max. (Biped makes it QUICK and easy))They use Maya which is 100% custom skeletal rigs. (no Max Biped!) (means lots more work, and that's just the rigging side of it.)All models need to not onlyA. Look good in all lighting conditions, butB. Be sliceable into pieces so when you substitute a Platemail BP, the chest area of the model vanishes and is replaced by the armor piece, or the Hand comes off and is replaced by a glove, etc.C. Be geometrically efficient. Wireframe flow needs to be properly setup so animators and riggers don't have nightmares when trying to get the models to move properly. This takes ALOT of time.D. Unwrap the models all the same way so that every character model (Hopefully now only one body-model?), uses the same textures. (Unwrapping can be daunting and often takes forever)E. If the new models are not inheriting the old unwraps, then that means every single armor and clothing texture in game will have to be re-textured in photoshop. (Rearranged to adapt to the new model's unwraps. VERY VERY time consuming, there are hundreds of textures)F. Have their heads re-rigged for facial animations. Additionally, all facial animations will likely have to be redone from SCRATCH. (unless they are using facial bone rig, which would take less time than a morph-target system)G. All motion capture body animations need to be re-adapted, applied and re-animated on the new characters, tweaked for each one to look as good as it was before. H. Finally, it has to WORK! All art assets must properly coincide with naming conventions, size restrictions and/or other limitations to the EQ2 game engine. Depending on each game studios level of organization, this may not be a quick task. Often times the only way of seeing if something is Engine-Ready is by importing it and checking in-game. And if it ISNT, well, you just cost yourself tons of time and now have to go back to the art team and get it fixed Takes FOR-EVA!!!To help put things into perspective, Next-Gen quality game studios may give an artist 1-2 months to create a Main Character for a game, and at the end of which time they want a fully modelled, textured and rigged character for a game (secondary characters may only get 2-3 weeks to complete). The length of time will depend on the target quality of the character, among other variables like the Game Platform you are developing for etc.They are undertaking not only remodelling 12-14(?) (i havent counted lately) races but also models for both MALE and Female of each race, combining them into a more streamlined model system using (entirely new?) models on their new skeletal rig. Lots of work!Don't rush the art team!What would you rather see? WoW-style crappy characters in a few  months? orAssassins Creed style ultra realistic characters after a longer wait *crosses fingers and hopes the end results will be comparable to AC 8-)*(btw to the art team, if I have made an error in my descriptions  and explanations please correct me, I'm mostly extrapolating and assuming here 8-))---

[Cragger]

I doubt anyone would say its not alot of work. However what is valid to say is that its not so much work that it should have taken over 2 years now and produced no visible results. So its obviously a project that has been put on the back burner numerous times, I suspect its something the art team get to work on in between other deadlines on things such as new art content for expansions. The delay in class epics this expansion shows that most likely that area of EQ2 development is probably not that heavily staffed.What gets me the most though is the total lack of any information and sense of progress given out by those in care of EQ2's state of health. The thread of top concerns was a great start, it looked for a change that some interaction on long standing issues was finally going to be given. But after the final tally its now sat cold and dormant. I'm not an AoC doomsayer but I would think that during a time like this it would be important to vitalize your current customer base by informing them of what is coming and where things are going. But since that other game launched there hasn't been much coming our way. Which is leading some into a feeling of hopelessness or that its a lost cause I think. At this rate its going to be one lonely road till November and The Shadow Oddessy.

[Mr. Dawki]

Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I'm not an AoC doomsayer but I would think that during a time like this it would be important to vitalize your current customer base by informing them of what is coming and where things are going. But since that other game launched there hasn't been much coming our way. Which is leading some into a feeling of hopelessness or that its a lost cause I think. At this rate its going to be one lonely road till November and The Shadow Oddessy.

QFE! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD QFE!!! (for lack of a better acronym) QFE AGAIN!

[Kitsune286]

This won't affect Gnoll models, Mr. Dawkins. ;pOh, say hi to Mort for me too.I do hope they don't break anything with the revamp, though. I would be soreley dissapointed if my digigrade Rats became plantigrade.

[Risiko]

Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I doubt anyone would say its not alot of work. However what is valid to say is that its not so much work that it should have taken over 2 years now and produced no visible results. So its obviously a project that has been put on the back burner numerous times, I suspect its something the art team get to work on in between other deadlines on things such as new art content for expansions. The delay in class epics this expansion shows that most likely that area of EQ2 development is probably not that heavily staffed.What gets me the most though is the total lack of any information and sense of progress given out by those in care of EQ2's state of health. The thread of top concerns was a great start, it looked for a change that some interaction on long standing issues was finally going to be given. But after the final tally its now sat cold and dormant. I'm not an AoC doomsayer but I would think that during a time like this it would be important to vitalize your current customer base by informing them of what is coming and where things are going. But since that other game launched there hasn't been much coming our way. Which is leading some into a feeling of hopelessness or that its a lost cause I think. At this rate its going to be one lonely road till November and The Shadow Oddessy.

I hear what you are saying, but at the same time, I would like to point out that EQ2 gamers should be thankful that they don't get treated like Vanguard:SoH gamers.  At least EQ2 gamers get to look forward to major new game content at least once a year.  Vanguard gamers get to look forward to rediculously stupid content updates once in a blue moon.  The latest one they released was nothing more then a faction grind that in the end gives you the ability to ride a mount that was just some animal model already used in the game.  The mounts don't even have saddles or tack.

 In other words, thank your stars that SoE actually still considers EQ2 a viable product.  Other members of the SoE MMORPG group don't even get that consideration.

[Qandor]

zip wrote:

 In other words, thank your stars that SoE actually still considers EQ2 a viable product.  Other members of the SoE MMORPG group don't even get that consideration.

Some times I wonder if they actually do feel it is a viable product going forward. The population is waning, that is fairly obvious. Each new game that launches grabs more people from EQ2. They obviously haven't thrown much effort into this skeletal revamp from what they've shown and it does not sound like it is even visible on the horizon. You mention Vanguard which I beta-tested and played for over a year. What you see in Vanguard is the product of the minimal subscriber base. As EQ2 bleeds further we may see further reduction in the assets allocated to it as well. I guess they are pinning their hopes on The Agency - good luck with that.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

youtube(DOT)com/watch?v=HokbrASX-uoI noticed this video on YouTube which shows alpha stage E3 footage of EQ2. In the video the advertiser mentioned the armor was already supposed to be set to scale with each race. He showed a human then a ogre both wearing the same armor. I thought it was pretty good. I guess a lot of things got scrapped before release. The armor that human female wore was pretty awesome. Now that (6 years?) time has passed i think it might be ok to bring some of that stuff back. I'm sure most people have dual cores (except me lol).

[Chay]

To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play.

[-Arctura-]

(( it all comes down to this...I am guessing, at some point the execs got together and made a decision.New game? (EQ3?) Or just totally revamp the characters to stay current and competitive with next-gen games?They chose the latter. Its still a massive undertaking, but less so than a completely new game.(again, just a theory )---

[LordFyre]

Chayna wrote:

To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play.

But, that is the problem isn't.  Currently no such game exists (since AoC is proving to be a disappointment.)

[Cragger]

There will probably never be another Everquest sequel. At least not using the title Everquest, there is potential for a game based in the world of Norrath but Smed said himself in an interview a couple years ago that the biggest mistake they made in this game was calling it Everquest 2. And the reality is if you've been keeping an eye on Sony activities and Smed's own blogs and announcements that he wants to take the company in a new direction toward new markets of cash for ingame items/status/whatnot and younger demographs of 12-14 etc. Something they have already successfully pushed into EQ and EQ2 with the LoN loot cards.So an EQ or EQ2 traditional RPG style of game I don't see happening especially since Sony has been batting below average the last few years with Planetsides eventual burnout, Vanguards stillbirth, and Pirates of the Burning Seas never quite leaving port. Also if your wondering why I'm using Sony instead of SOE well its because things are in flux in the company of Sony as SOE has been placed under SCE (Sony Computer Entertainment) while at the same time contracting NCsoft to develop MMOs for the Playstation 3. So until things settle out I will just use the parent corp name.Now having said that I will also say nothing rules out an EQ3 style game happening in some form some day, under a new name. Fallout series seemed all but dead and its having a major revival under bethsoft. And I for one would welcome a new RPGmmo carrying the Everquest or Norrathian name especially if it drew on lessons learned from both EQ games and combined the good elements of both.

[Cragger]

LordFyre wrote:

Chayna wrote:

To be honest. I thought they would have the revamp done by now, I was expecting it in the first quarter of 2008. The game is losing steam (just my opinion) and doesn't really have a direction. Well with the exception of "keep the addicts coming back".The more they just slap random colors on reused textures the closer they get to WoW. While I appreciate the size of the task, I don't understand how they can expect people to keep forking money over each month.I think we all want a visually stimulating game with equally stimulating game play.

But, that is the problem isn't.  Currently no such game exists (since AoC is proving to be a disappointment.)

Holding the Fastest selling PC game record kinda defies that statement. And no I don't play AoC and won't be playing it. But my dislike doesn't mean hundreds of thousands or even millions dislike it as well. Because while we are here for our enjoyments these companies make these games for a profit so if you selling product and growing your doing good. Longevity comes in a balance of our enjoyment and minimizing their expenses.

[Nakaru-Nitepaw]

I don't personally see a EQ3 happening, but who knows. So far there is 3 EQ online games. First we have EQ1. Then they made EQOA for PS2 which takes place i think 1000 years before EQ1? Then EQ2 is set 500 years later. If we have EQ3, it will most likely be another 1000 years. It may hit a timeline similar to our modern real world lol. I can just see all ratonga street gangs toting pistols. People forgot about magic and began focusing on technology and nano bots instead. Sounds kinda scary to me.

[Deadrus]

Mirander_1 wrote:

I got a question on this, Gnobrin;

I recall hearing sometime during Kunark's development, that the Sarnaks use the new, in-development skeletal system, rather than the old one, is this correct?  Also, the new version of the male Human was apparently shown off at the previous fan-faire, from what I heard.

Both these things would suggest to me that this new system isn't necessarily something that needs to put in all at once, but rather it's possible for it to be brought into the live game in a piecemeal fashion.

Is there any reason why the skeletal system couldn't be implemented on a race-by-race, gender-by-gender basis, as each race/gender is completed?  Doing so would at least provide reassurance to the playerbase that progress is being made on this; and as this revamp is supposedly making visible improvements to the character models, we would start seeing the overall artistic quality of the game continually improving.

I like this idea but they can say they added the new skeleton/model but we wont truly see any new armors untill all of the races/genders are done. So if they put out one race/gender every  live updates. (for instance male human lu 46 and female human lu 47) It would take another 2 and 1/2 or more years for them to implement all the races and genders and another 2 or 3 expantoins with the same old armor with a new color painted on. At this point Soe either needs to put out EQ3 or actualy decide to take this skeletal revamp off the back burner and get the engine optomised. I think many of us would rather see eq2 finaly start to look better and run better on our technology then get new content. Things REALLY need to be fixed badly once its fix please give us more content. I look forward to the EQ2 expantoins every year but if i get EQ2 with better performance this year with better looking and more variety in armor i think I would be happy with that.

[Lady Uaelr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hokb...feature=related

If EQ2 looked like this  and had armor like this no one would even consider other games. 

I really enjoy the game - no point is rehashing the fact that I was sold based on these armors and looks.

But, if there is a chance SOE Devs actually read these posts - you guys can breathe new life into this game and become better and more popular than WOW or AOC.

I don't plan to leave but if you guys can give us anything like this so many people would be happy and even more would come back.

Everyone just about has duo core technology - so help your loyal customers.

[LordFyre]

Lady Uaelrea wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hokb...feature=related

If EQ2 looked like this  and had armor like this no one would even consider other games. 

I really enjoy the game - no point is rehashing the fact that I was sold based on these armors and looks.

Actually, on the highest quality setting, a lot of EQ2 armors do look like that. 

And, with the female armor suit, (while I agree with you) the preferences of the EQ2 community are fairly evenly split.   

(Of course, with the appearance slots, the players who want that kind of armor would be able to have it, without forcing it on others . . . )

[Lady Uaelr]

But that is what is great- people with different views and tastes.

That is fine - it's good and diversity is good.

I do play on high quality and realize the textures are there and are amazing - that is why I would never play any other game.

But the styles is what I meant to say.

I have not seen any plate wearer using a breastplate like that - that is amazing.

As for the female - that is just incredible art work.

If they could rework even the female formal ensemble and use the top with a matching pants or get some of that vampire looking clothes that would be amazing.

Can you imagine a fabled robe in the design of the female ensemble or male ensemble in all black with runes.

They have the art and the designs - they just need to rework them some.

[TheSummoned]

Lady Uaelrea wrote:

Everyone just about has duo core technology - so help your loyal customers.

Everyone doesn't have core duo processors. A lot of the people have computers that are 3-5 years old. I myself have a computer that's in it's 7th year.Anyway, the skeletal revamp was in the works for just about 3 years now, the time it takes to build a completely new game! And it's still not even on the horizon? That's complete bullocks.If they were throwing out alpha human models 2 years ago, why is it still not finished? How? The skeletal models revamp is so streched out now that I very much doubt that it'll be able to help EQ2 a whole lot in bringing back a lot of lost subscribers. Especially if they screw up yet another expansion pack.And with the miriad of MMOs that will be coming out/have just launched in the next year and a half, the time they're taking to complete these skeletons could as well prove to be fatal and could have very few people to show it to left.One thing, though, is that they could as well use the new skeletons for future MMOs, which can be a good thing.Atleast I got something out of the free 60 days that was given to my (canceled) subscription.

[-Arctura-]

TheSummoned wrote:

Anyway, the skeletal revamp was in the works for just about 3 years now, the time it takes to build a completely new game! And it's still not even on the horizon? That's complete bullocks.

(( The skeletal revamp was only announced in 2007 around this time of year. It has only been in the works for about a year...Games these days take a long time too, depending on the studio. Assassin's Creed was something like 4-5 years from inception? GTA4 was a good 4 years? Bioshock like 5+?And in all the time taken for an entire game to be made, you can rest assured there were BOATLOADS more people working on things in a brand-new game title release as opposed to right now with a skeletal revamp of an already-released title.---

[Mirander_1]

-Arctura- wrote:

TheSummoned wrote:

Anyway, the skeletal revamp was in the works for just about 3 years now, the time it takes to build a completely new game! And it's still not even on the horizon? That's complete bullocks.

(( The skeletal revamp was only announced in 2007 around this time of year. It has only been in the works for about a year...

I'm vaguely recalling news of the revamp first cropping up not long after the release of Kingdom of Sky (or maybe around the release of Fallen Dynasty); around about the time when people were asking how it could take so long for twenty-four class hats to be made.

[TheSummoned]

I admit, it's closer to 2 years they 3 years.Here's the earliest Gallenite post mentioning it I bothered finding and it's labeled 2006:LINKYAnd even then he mentions that they've mentioned it a while back, so it's been in the works closer to 2 years. Should it take them that long? I don't know, but I would expect they'd have enough finished that they'd make a bit more noise about it and not still preach that it's "a long ways away".