is gear bugged? or is it the CAs? some things wrong

[koemoejoe]

i just got a riliss chicken foot today checked my double shot's dmg before i equiped it wondering how the game adds up CA dmg mods so then i equipped it and the dmg on my arrow atk went down my old charm slot was a hex doll from T7 +14 str the chickin foot is +25 str +50 CA dmg so i kept equipping and unequipping them and every time i got new max/min dmg total the hex doll stayed higher dmg then the chicken foot some of the time and vice versa now i know i do not know every thing about this game but some thing don't seem right to me

[koemoejoe]

after looking into this i found that most of them are not changing it's just searing shot so far but looking at all of them

[Oh]

Well there is a MAX to what you can add to ca's. From what I understand you can only add up to 50% more to your existing amount. So let's say your CA does 70-100 that means you can add up to a max of 50 before it will top out the max and only 35 to max out the min.

[Guy De Alsace]

Since nothing is ever explained in this game and its left to trial and error or argument and counter-argument on here as just what on earth some things actually do.

I found out to my cost that haste has a cap (wasted 2pp there).

Double attack - does that mean that every time I should get a single autoattack I get two (or double damage)? Or does it mean I get a single attack but two rolls "to hit"? Or does it mean the damage displayed when "double attack" comes up is the value of a single attack in-between two regular swings? What does it mean? No explanation...

Is the +health amount on an item better than the stamina buff on an item? Is it the case, as someone told me, that high Int increases the parry chances for fighters? He seemed adamant about it but there's no mention of this when you mouse over intelligence in your persona window.

To be honest, I spend most of my time wearing what looks cool and items that look vaguely better than the previous item. It seems to work out most of the time.

[Geothe]

Guy De Alsace wrote:

Since nothing is ever explained in this game and its left to trial and error or argument and counter-argument on here as just what on earth some things actually do.

I found out to my cost that haste has a cap (wasted 2pp there).

Double attack - does that mean that every time I should get a single autoattack I get two (or double damage)? Or does it mean I get a single attack but two rolls "to hit"? Or does it mean the damage displayed when "double attack" comes up is the value of a single attack in-between two regular swings? What does it mean? No explanation...

Is the +health amount on an item better than the stamina buff on an item? Is it the case, as someone told me, that high Int increases the parry chances for fighters? He seemed adamant about it but there's no mention of this when you mouse over intelligence in your persona window.

To be honest, I spend most of my time wearing what looks cool and items that look vaguely better than the previous item. It seems to work out most of the time.

Yes haste has a CAP, of 200 mod, for 125% actual haste.And, equipment with +haste on them DO NOT STACK, you will only gain the benefits from one(in ROK, however, there are some items with +attack speed, in small amounts like 1-4, those WILL stack with an item with a larger amount of +HASTE)

DoubleAttack:Every autoattack has a chance to DoubleAttack.  This chance is rolled before the first autoattack is decided as a hit or miss, and the initial attack and the second-double attack each have independent to-hit rolls.   Also. NOTHING will proc on the second hit of a double attack.

 +HP vs +Sta.  The benefits really depend on how much Stamina you have, as all stats are on a diminishing returns curve, with the higher you have in the stat, the less benefit you get from gaining more.Just a random example:  say you have 100 STA and getting 1 more STA will increase your HP by 10,  but if you were at 800 STA, getting 1 MORE STA will increase your hp by 3.  (those are just comlpetely made up numbers there).

Int hasnothing to do with Parry chance.  Int increases power for casters, SKs, and Bards (i believe?), as well as increases all spell damage (on diminishign returns curve again) as well as non-physical damage proc damage and poison damage.

[koemoejoe]

but all this does not explain why my searing shot CA max/min dmg changes every tiime i equip my hex doll or my chicken foot it seems to change the base min/max dmg randomly with no logic at all no matter what diminishing returns or no diminishing return nothing that has 14+ should ever boost a CA up further then an iteam that has +25 str and +50 CA dmg mod do you guys understand now?

[DngrMou]

koemoejoe wrote:

but all this does not explain why my searing shot CA max/min dmg changes every tiime i equip my hex doll or my chicken foot it seems to change the base min/max dmg randomly with no logic at all no matter what diminishing returns or no diminishing return nothing that has 14+ should ever boost a CA up further then an iteam that has +25 str and +50 CA dmg mod do you guys understand now?

What you'll need to do:1.  Strip off everything, but your weapon(s), and 'Chicken Foot'.  No armor, no jewelry, and make sure you're using weapons with no proc, nothing that triggers on average of X times per minutes.  If you need to, purchase a cheap weapon or two from the broker. 2.  In KJ, find the training wall at Tabernacle of Pain.3.  With auto-attack turned off, use your CA's on the wall, one at a time, until the wall goes down.4.  Unequip your chicken foot, and repeat step 3.On average, your CA's should do 50 more damage while the chicken foot is equipped.  Since your CA's have a range of damage, as has been mentioned, you have to eliminate other types of damage, bonuses, procs, etc to see the increase.  You can run ACT for this, unless you like pawing through your combat logs, and doing the math yourself.

[DngrMou]

Ok...I'm a sucker for naked hand to hand combat with the training wall.  I did some experimenting, here's my results.But first, my equipment:Weapons, Level 5, One hand slashing 'Gurgold Axe', two of them dual wield.  (I just wanted something, other than my knuckles, to hit the wall with)Riliss Chicken foot, (for test without RCF, I equipped a Draconic Belt of the Ironheart, adds 25 to str, replacing that lost when removing the foot, and added some stamina, health, and power, which would not affect this test).All spells/food/drink were cancelled.  Unbuffed str was 70, melee Crit 15%, No DPS, or Haste mods.  No other equipment, or jewelry, was ungrouped at the time.Test 1.  No chicken foot, (but equipped the belt).CA used:  Bedazzling Steel, A3, (examine shows damage range of 331-405)Hit the wall 50 times with BS, and after eliminating all AA damage, misses, crits....Average per CA damage was 365.87  (The average for the above damage range should be 368...so it's close)Test 2.  Same set up, but no belt, and equipped RCF.CA used:  Same....(examine showed damage range of 381-455)Hit the wall 50 times with BS, and after eliminating all AA damage, misses, crits....Average per CA damage was 381  (The average for the above damage range should be 418...it's not close)For a grand total difference of 15.13.  Which falls a tad shy of the advertised "+50 combat art damage"

[koemoejoe]

so in short it's bugged devs please look into this and fix it please and please look into all CA dmg mods for that matter are any of them working i'm guessing by the above example they all will be buggedthis is a real issue we should have 10x more folks posting about this i'm guessing the reason no one is might be my low post count? we need to get the mods/devs to hear about this real issue effecting all of 72 mastercrafted and many more

[DngrMou]

koemoejoe wrote:

so in short it's bugged devs please look into this and fix it please and please look into all CA dmg mods for that matter are any of them working i'm guessing by the above example they all will be buggedthis is a real issue we should have 10x more folks posting about this i'm guessing the reason no one is might be my low post count? we need to get the mods/devs to hear about this real issue effecting all of 72 mastercrafted and many more

Well.  Before we say it's bugged, someone else will have to duplicate my above tests.  Even miscounting the number of hits would'nt result in an error that large, but there could well be other mechanisms at work here that I'm simply not aware of.

[Guy De Alsace]

Thanks for the info on double attack there. One more question...is +health on a diminishing returns curve? Or is it worthwhile prioritsing +health over +sta at higher levels for a better bang for your buck?

Cheers.

[Noaani]

Guy De Alsace wrote:

Thanks for the info on double attack there. One more question...is +health on a diminishing returns curve? Or is it worthwhile prioritsing +health over +sta at higher levels for a better bang for your buck?

Cheers.

+ health and + power are simply straight numbers, so yes, if your sta is high it is worth going for raw HP over sta on items.

Incidently, all of this info is fairly easily avalible on flames.

[TheSpin]

koemoejoe wrote:

so in short it's bugged devs please look into this and fix it please and please look into all CA dmg mods for that matter are any of them working i'm guessing by the above example they all will be buggedthis is a real issue we should have 10x more folks posting about this i'm guessing the reason no one is might be my low post count? we need to get the mods/devs to hear about this real issue effecting all of 72 mastercrafted and many more

+CA damage does what it says it does.  It increased the minimum and maximum damage range of your combat art by 50 in the example posted above.

There are so many other factors used in combat that the mechanics of +ca damage may very well be accurate, but the other mechanics prevent the extra damage from behing as high as you expect it to be.  It could be mitigation or factoring in crits and misses and all the other things that were discounted, or any number of other variables.

Remember that +CA damage is applied to the actual combat art, it's not applied as an additional damage bonus after the original damage is dealt.   (Meaning that it changes the CA from 100 to 125...it does NOT change it from 100 to 100 + 25)

[koemoejoe]

well i have a hard time running any sort of test on that wall in KJ on a pvp server they pwn my facen soon as i un stealth but i just got on for the day i'll head over to KJ and see if i can get some numbers

[DngrMou]

TheSpin wrote:

koemoejoe wrote:

so in short it's bugged devs please look into this and fix it please and please look into all CA dmg mods for that matter are any of them working i'm guessing by the above example they all will be buggedthis is a real issue we should have 10x more folks posting about this i'm guessing the reason no one is might be my low post count? we need to get the mods/devs to hear about this real issue effecting all of 72 mastercrafted and many more

+CA damage does what it says it does.  It increased the minimum and maximum damage range of your combat art by 50 in the example posted above.

There are so many other factors used in combat that the mechanics of +ca damage may very well be accurate, but the other mechanics prevent the extra damage from behing as high as you expect it to be.  It could be mitigation or factoring in crits and misses and all the other things that were discounted, or any number of other variables.

Remember that +CA damage is applied to the actual combat art, it's not applied as an additional damage bonus after the original damage is dealt.   (Meaning that it changes the CA from 100 to 125...it does NOT change it from 100 to 100 + 25)

I adjusted for crits/misses.  It was the training wall, which does'nt hit back,  I used only one CA, which debuffs the targets DPS...(the wall does'nt actually have any dps).  Naked, no jewelry, no buffs, no food/drink.  Lowbie weapons, no procs.  Check my post above.  It'd be best if someone else tried this.  The training wall is perfect, completely safe there, and it does'nt hit back.

[TheSpin]

DngrMouse wrote:

I adjusted for crits/misses.  It was the training wall, which does'nt hit back,  I used only one CA, which debuffs the targets DPS...(the wall does'nt actually have any dps).  Naked, no jewelry, no buffs, no food/drink.  Lowbie weapons, no procs.  Check my post above.  It'd be best if someone else tried this.  The training wall is perfect, completely safe there, and it does'nt hit back.

You're still overlooking mitigation, and quite possibly a number of other things with the test as you described it.

[Noaani]

koemoejoe wrote:

i just got a riliss chicken foot today checked my double shot's dmg before i equiped it wondering how the game adds up CA dmg mods so then i equipped it and the dmg on my arrow atk went down my old charm slot was a hex doll from T7 +14 str the chickin foot is +25 str +50 CA dmg so i kept equipping and unequipping them and every time i got new max/min dmg total the hex doll stayed higher dmg then the chicken foot some of the time and vice versa now i know i do not know every thing about this game but some thing don't seem right to me

Without having any more details than what you have posted (which is very little to go by...), there are 3 main possibalities that I can think it could be.

The first is simply a display bug, the second is a conflict with anyother item effect or buff you have on, and lastly it could be an actual bug.

In order to verify the first, unequip every single item you have, remove every single buff you have, including poisons, and be sure you are not in a group with anyone. Since you are a ranger, you will now need to re-equip your bow. Be sure that the bow you use does not have any effects at all (buy a non imbued handcrafted bow if you need to for the purposes of this), select 5 or 6 CAs that you will use for all tests,and examine them (note; the only item you have equipped while examining your CAs at this point is your bow, they should be rather low). Write the numbers of each CA down, take screenshots if possible, with the examine window of several combat arts, your persona and inventory screens open and visable.

Now equip your chicken foot. Re-examine the same CAs you wrote down before, write the damage values down again, and screenshot them if possible, with persona and inventory visable. Any that do direct damage and are single target should see an increase of more than 50 points on both the minimum and maximum. If this is the case, the first of the possibalities can be ruled out.

Next, go to the training wall in Kunzar Jungle. Wearing exactly what you had on for the first lot of examines above, and running Advanced Combat Tracker (you will not get to the root of the problem easily without this tool, if you do not have it, get it. In order to get it, simply google advanced combat tracker), kill the wall a total of 5 times, using only the CAs you have selected. Switch over to ACT and merge these 5 encounters in to one, and you can now delete the 5 encounters with the wall. Do not use any debuffs at all.

Now re-equip the chicken foot, and kill the wall 5 times, again using only the selected CAs. Merge these encounters in ACT once again.

You now have 2 graphs each of 5 encounters with the wall, one without the foot, one with.

Now is where you get to figure out which of the possibalities it is.

If the damage value in the examine windows was higher with the foot, by more than 50, and the average of your combat arts was 35- 65 higher in the trial against the wall with the foot than without the foot, then there is no issue, and you may have had a temporary bug.

If the examine test showed the damage value of your combat arts to not have a more than 50 damage gain from the foot, but the trial against the wall showed an increase per CA with the foot, then you have a display bug.

If the damage value in the examine window showed the CAs gaining the expected amount of damage, but the trial on the walls did not show it, then you have a bug.

Feel free to post the screenshots of your CAs with and without the foot, and your results in ACT if you still have issues.

Edit: since you are on a PvP server, be sure you are not compairing PvP CAs to PvE CAs.

[DngrMou]

TheSpin wrote:

DngrMouse wrote:

I adjusted for crits/misses.  It was the training wall, which does'nt hit back,  I used only one CA, which debuffs the targets DPS...(the wall does'nt actually have any dps).  Naked, no jewelry, no buffs, no food/drink.  Lowbie weapons, no procs.  Check my post above.  It'd be best if someone else tried this.  The training wall is perfect, completely safe there, and it does'nt hit back.

You're still overlooking mitigation, and quite possibly a number of other things with the test as you described it.

The training wall's mitigation would not change though.  I used no CA's that would affect it....the only damage came from AA's, (to keep ACT active), and Bedazzling Steel, (which is damage, and a dps debuff). 

[DngrMou]

Noaani wrote:

koemoejoe wrote:

i just got a riliss chicken foot today checked my double shot's dmg before i equiped it wondering how the game adds up CA dmg mods so then i equipped it and the dmg on my arrow atk went down my old charm slot was a hex doll from T7 +14 str the chickin foot is +25 str +50 CA dmg so i kept equipping and unequipping them and every time i got new max/min dmg total the hex doll stayed higher dmg then the chicken foot some of the time and vice versa now i know i do not know every thing about this game but some thing don't seem right to me

Without having any more details than what you have posted (which is very little to go by...), there are 3 main possibalities that I can think it could be.

The first is simply a display bug, the second is a conflict with anyother item effect or buff you have on, and lastly it could be an actual bug.

In order to verify the first, unequip every single item you have, remove every single buff you have, including poisons, and be sure you are not in a group with anyone. Since you are a ranger, you will now need to re-equip your bow. Be sure that the bow you use does not have any effects at all (buy a non imbued handcrafted bow if you need to for the purposes of this), select 5 or 6 CAs that you will use for all tests,and examine them (note; the only item you have equipped while examining your CAs at this point is your bow, they should be rather low). Write the numbers of each CA down, take screenshots if possible, with the examine window of several combat arts, your persona and inventory screens open and visable.

Now equip your chicken foot. Re-examine the same CAs you wrote down before, write the damage values down again, and screenshot them if possible, with persona and inventory visable. Any that do direct damage and are single target should see an increase of more than 50 points on both the minimum and maximum. If this is the case, the first of the possibalities can be ruled out.

Next, go to the training wall in Kunzar Jungle. Wearing exactly what you had on for the first lot of examines above, and running Advanced Combat Tracker (you will not get to the root of the problem easily without this tool, if you do not have it, get it. In order to get it, simply google advanced combat tracker), kill the wall a total of 5 times, using only the CAs you have selected. Switch over to ACT and merge these 5 encounters in to one, and you can now delete the 5 encounters with the wall. Do not use any debuffs at all.

Now re-equip the chicken foot, and kill the wall 5 times, again using only the selected CAs. Merge these encounters in ACT once again.

You now have 2 graphs each of 5 encounters with the wall, one without the foot, one with.

Now is where you get to figure out which of the possibalities it is.

If the damage value in the examine windows was higher with the foot, by more than 50, and the average of your combat arts was 35- 65 higher in the trial against the wall with the foot than without the foot, then there is no issue, and you may have had a temporary bug.

If the examine test showed the damage value of your combat arts to not have a more than 50 damage gain from the foot, but the trial against the wall showed an increase per CA with the foot, then you have a display bug.

If the damage value in the examine window showed the CAs gaining the expected amount of damage, but the trial on the walls did not show it, then you have a bug.

Feel free to post the screenshots of your CAs with and without the foot, and your results in ACT if you still have issues.

Edit: since you are on a PvP server, be sure you are not compairing PvP CAs to PvE CAs.

This test does not take into account the added strength he gets from the foot.  He'll have to have a replacement item, with the same strength bonus when doing the test without the foot.

[Noaani]

DngrMouse wrote:

This test does not take into account the added strength he gets from the foot.  He'll have to have a replacement item, with the same strength bonus when doing the test without the foot.

Yes it does, thats why i said he should see a benefit of "more than 50" rather than exactly 50.

However, the exact numbers are not important for figuring out exactly what is causing the issue.

[TheSpin]

I would be interested in seeing some numbers with a debuff such as dispatch active, and the same test without the debuff active.  It might reveal some truths that I think you are overlooking right now.

Maybe the wall mitigates more damage than you anticipate.

[Noaani]

TheSpin wrote:

Maybe the wall mitigates more damage than you anticipate.

The wall has exactly 0 mitigation, as do most mobs in the game (the exceptions are usually obvious, such as the elementals in Nizara having higher mitigation to there element).

Debuffs take the mob from 0 in to negative numbers.

This is why it is very rare (post LU#13) for a spell or combat art to do less than the listed minimum damage.

[TheSpin]

Noaani wrote:

TheSpin wrote:

Maybe the wall mitigates more damage than you anticipate.

The wall has exactly 0 mitigation, as do most mobs in the game (the exceptions are usually obvious, such as the elementals in Nizara having higher mitigation to there element).

Debuffs take the mob from 0 in to negative numbers.

This is why it is very rare (post LU#13) for a spell or combat art to do less than the listed minimum damage.

I disagree with you here.  You are saying that every mob in the game has the same mitigation, but if I go and wack a level 1 mob and then wack a level 80 mob they will be for different amounts.

That live update said that combat arts will not hit for less than their minimum damage, but I don't remember it saying that mitigation was removed.  Dispatch definately increases the damage that combat arts do...and usually causes combat arts to hit for over the listed damage.  I'm not saying I have the answer, but I am saying that you might not.

[Norrsken]

TheSpin wrote:

Noaani wrote:

TheSpin wrote:

Maybe the wall mitigates more damage than you anticipate.

The wall has exactly 0 mitigation, as do most mobs in the game (the exceptions are usually obvious, such as the elementals in Nizara having higher mitigation to there element).

Debuffs take the mob from 0 in to negative numbers.

This is why it is very rare (post LU#13) for a spell or combat art to do less than the listed minimum damage.

I disagree with you here.  You are saying that every mob in the game has the same mitigation, but if I go and wack a level 1 mob and then wack a level 80 mob they will be for different amounts.

That live update said that combat arts will not hit for less than their minimum damage, but I don't remember it saying that mitigation was removed.  Dispatch definately increases the damage that combat arts do...and usually causes combat arts to hit for over the listed damage.  I'm not saying I have the answer, but I am saying that you might not.

Ask a coercer to possess a mob (do it quickly, soon they cant do it anymore) and have them tell you what mit the mob has. I think its normally something like 30%.

[Daghammerskold]

LU 13 NotesNPCs - NPCs no longer mitigate the damage done by spells and combat arts. When a damage spell or art lands on an opponent, its damage should fall within the range shown in its examine information.

[DngrMou]

Noaani wrote:

DngrMouse wrote:

This test does not take into account the added strength he gets from the foot.  He'll have to have a replacement item, with the same strength bonus when doing the test without the foot.

Yes it does, thats why i said he should see a benefit of "more than 50" rather than exactly 50.

However, the exact numbers are not important for figuring out exactly what is causing the issue.

Uh...unless you can tell us what those 'exact numbers' are, then yes, they're very important.  If you can't even define these numbers...or explain in the meanest terms where they come from, then yes....best maybe to ignore them completely. 

[Norrsken]

Daghammerskold wrote:

LU 13 NotesNPCs - NPCs no longer mitigate the damage done by spells and combat arts. When a damage spell or art lands on an opponent, its damage should fall within the range shown in its examine information.

Yes, however, I think they are balancing the mitigation system around 30% or something like that.