Is it just me...

[RaunII]

or does it seem like a rip off that with STA line all you get for having a shield in is 38% DA? i mean, that would be fine, assuming that all I was doing was soloing and not raiding, but, the end result of STA line and the group DA is most valuable for raiding, its the reason I would want STA line in the first place...group kills are ussually easy enough i would have to worry about more group DPS or helping the tank shield block.

I dunno, I just think that it should be like 60% like other classes get for missing the two weapon bonus (warriors and rogues come to mind). i could stand to drop a weapon and lend my shield to the tank, but, my DPS suffers so bad when i throw a board in.

I guess my point is, as a MT dirge, there shouldnt be any question as to if i should go all the way and not part way down the STA line, and no question as to if I should have a shield in. I understand they want us to be buff botts, but, geez...only 28% extra double attack for the loss of a whole weapon when most of my damage is from melee attacks? i at least need to be able to outparse the healers...come on...

I don't get it...enlighten me devs!

[firza]

AA's failed at what they where supposed to do from the beginning. There is no diversity of toon builds through AA's.

IF...IF you can get all DA items currently ingame you could get over the cap where DA becomes interesting...64-ish.

Otherwise forget DA and just use your good old dw's.

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

firza wrote:

IF...IF you can get all DA items currently ingame you could get over the cap where DA becomes interesting...64-ish.

Otherwise forget DA and just use your good old dw's.

How come this is the 'interesting' threshold? 

Whysp

[firza]

ouch, did you rly just have to kick my "non-mathematical shins" again

Theory from a gnomish perspective:

1 : DW should do more dps then 1HS. (you get to equip a shield....right....)

2 : Failed AA implementation for many scout classes to try and diversify....= more 1HS scouts with higher dps....

3 : need a trashold when 1HS becomes more interesting then DW....

4 : implement DA....to make the faster hitting 1 HS do even more dammage to offset two swings from DW 30% slower.

4A: but DA works for DW also....so you need quite a lot of it.

5 : Classes get a choice between DW and 1HS, all our diverse prayers have been heard and even Innoruuk seems content.

[duuf]

The sta line is anything but a rip offThe DA advantage from Sword & Board is 44 with 8 points in skald.The 10 points from Fortissimo is one of our best AALend shielding can be used in far more situations than just raid, for example I use it extensively boxing with my Pally.Shield bash = not only a nice lil xtra CA damager it knocks a non epic mob down for a couple of seconds reducing damage taken.Finally if there is a large difference in the damage capabilties of your two weapons Sword & Board may provide more melee damage than dual wield ie: Epic vs any other current available dual wield weapon.

[RaunII]

i just want the option of not loosing so much DPS by switching to sword and board, i agree that a sword and board should not outparse DW, however, I do not think that it should be such a major differance. if they want us to be a utility class and lend a shield, i think we shouldnt get hit so hard on DPS.

the rogues getting a huge bonus from 1 handing a weapon is a no brainer, my thinking is, a pirate with one weapon that was really skilled with a sword could in theory be more effective with one weapon than blindly swinging two swords around.

I dont think that we should really need to do more DPS with the STA line than with DW, it would just be nice if it was a option to come close to the same numbers...i just really dont like being at the bottom of the parse...close to bottom, sure...but...next to the healers is embarrassing.

[duuf]

Ruon@Blackburrow wrote:

i just want the option of not loosing so much DPS by switching to sword and board, i agree that a sword and board should not outparse DW, however, I do not think that it should be such a major differance. if they want us to be a utility class and lend a shield, i think we shouldnt get hit so hard on DPS.

the rogues getting a huge bonus from 1 handing a weapon is a no brainer, my thinking is, a pirate with one weapon that was really skilled with a sword could in theory be more effective with one weapon than blindly swinging two swords around.

I dont think that we should really need to do more DPS with the STA line than with DW, it would just be nice if it was a option to come close to the same numbers...i just really dont like being at the bottom of the parse...close to bottom, sure...but...next to the healers is embarrassing.

Evidently you missed the point in my Dual Wield vs Sword & Board even though you posted in it.  You can have comparable dps Dual Wield v Sword & Board.I currently raid Sword & Board because even though my dirge currently has the 2nd highest hit points world wide and flirts top 10 world wide in resists, typically he dies about a half a second after the clothies.This is primarily due to the lack of group protections in my scout group.Sword & Board significantly increases my survival rate which is beneficial to both my lil dirge, my group and the raiding party as a whole.The results - I compete very well with the other three bards with all 4 of us swapping positions around the upper middle of the zone wide parses.  This is even though my dirge dies more often and normally doesn't get some of the dps buffs the other bards get because they go to the "more important" rogues, scouts and fighters in my group.So can Sword & Board beat Dual wield dps for Dirges.  On a straight melee basis I have proven to myself the answer is a definite yes.But theres just too many other factors to give a definitive answer with one of the bigger one being the large difference in swing rates.. ie Sword & Board more output from COB but more delays from CA/Spell vs Dual Wield.IDKBut at least for this dirge it can compete and it is an option where you "can come close to the same numbers" as DW.Duubard

[RaunII]

well, i mean, at that point, its all about knowing your class, all the dirges i have talked to, it seems about a 30% loss in DPS by keeping a board in all the time.

im thinking about trying it as soon as i get a decent shield, because my gear sucks, i am close to bottom if not on the bottom of the parse(up untill yesterday i was level 77, and running in places like PR and ToK)...orange mobs, rezzing people, and crappy gear has me struggling to pull 1500-1800 dps...so, at this point i am at the "what do i have to loose" mark, besides, most of the time i am dying multiple time in a raid, have been since i was lvl 75 cause we REALLY needed a dirge, so each day i have tons of debt from AOE deaths to work off, making leveling painfully slow.

my origonal complaint is still there, why cant it be more effective? yes, i realise sword and board is still a good spec, but it could be so much better! it should be the spec all the MT dirges go down, and not just the rare few here and there...i have yet to run into a dirge in a raid guild that has cleared VP or even in VP that uses a sword and board all the time, not just to swap in to click the shield block buff and swap out again for a second weapon.

[Lindar Phamoncry]

Yeah but considering that MT Dirges are getting much more as far as HP buffs and a good group warder... generally my survival rate is MUCH better there. Its in Melee groups that the extra protection is generally needed.

[duuf]

Ruon@Blackburrow wrote:

well, i mean, at that point, its all about knowing your class, all the dirges i have talked to, it seems about a 30% loss in DPS by keeping a board in all the time.

QFEOne last try then feel free to continue on with the dirges that "know their class".The math for your dirge:Arbiter of Absolution DR 84.6Blackbird Rapier       DR 70.7Dual Wield (84.6DR + 70.7Dr) / 1.33 = 116.8DRSword & Board  84.6DR + (84.6DR * .44) for Double Attack = 121.8DRHmm S&B with  a  potential higher than DW... AMAZING.K take the math  a little farther with Fortissimo for 10 more Double AttackDual Wield (84.6DR + 70.7Dr) / 1.33 =116.8DR + (116.8 DR * .1) for Double Attack = 128.4DR  Sword & Board  84.6DR + (84.6DR * .54) for DA  = 130.3DRAMAZING^2Your belief that STA is [Removed for Content] is in my opinion totally unfounded.

[RaunII]

hrm, well then i obviously dont know how to play, because my two spec's saved to my mirror are:

sword and board:

STA 4-4-8-8

WIS 4-6-4-8-2

INT 4-4-5-8

thats using the shield from the faction merchant in jinisk(round shield of deft flanking) average parse never creeps above 1200...(with arbiter of absolution)

and if i use the raid spec:

AGI 4-1

STA 4-4-4-8

Wis 4-6-4-8-2

INT 4-4-4-8

and two crappy weapons my average parse starts at 1200 and creeps up. so, i am doing something wrong then. every dirge i have talked to and everything i have tried shows like a 30% loss or so on DPS...it just seems rather severe compared to other classes one weapon AA lines.

i dunno, i am prolly a idiot, but, the last line on STA just isnt worth it, cause it only blocks one attack, and no way to really determine if that one hit it blocks will be a 1k or a 14k melee hit...im just not sold on the line and i think they could make it better...not to mention i not only have to give up my stealth attack for the line, but, also, if i take the last ability on the STA line i have to pull one point out of my DPS mod...thats no good.

p.s. damage ratings ussually dont mean a whole lot and i do not base my math around them. i do hard calculations...i dont have time to do the math, so i havent, but, parses on the training wall really arent looking in favor of the board...

[duuf]

Like I said that was my last try Knock yourself out with your beliefs especially the one about 30% reduction in dps.I've done the math, I've done the tests, I use in high end raiding and my dps numbers are where they ought to be considering the buff differential and death ratios between scout group and tank and off tank groups typically the number 2 bard out of 4.Yah can lead a horse to water but unless yah suck real hard on the other end you can't make him drink.  I pass.Duubard

[RaunII]

im really not trying to insult you or start a flame war man, i just noticed a large loss in dps...so was pointing out that they could have made the line a little better. not saying the line is totally worthless, just saying i find the end line to not be as good as it could be. if it was blocks attacks for like 5 seconds, it would be so worth loosing dps for it. but, thats not the way it is.

please man, not trying to frusterate you, just saying i feel the line could be better is all.

[duuf]

Ain't gonna be no flame war.But when you post with pre-conceived notions that are faith/dogma, seeking only ratification, and  that can't be changed by cold reason there is no reason to prolong the agony.As the great one Whysper said would you dual wield a tin dagger with your primary weapon.At some point when your primary weapon is better than your secondary weapon S&B > D/WMy dirge is at least at the break even point and I suspect with your current setup so is yours.But either way STA is not [Removed for Content] and is a great AA line for those that need/understand it.Good luck with your dirging.

[firza]

How high/low is your Double Attack with Sword and board set up Ruon?

Duuf has some fancy clothing and is sitting at 66 if I remember well.

[aloevita]

Great thread!

Can anyone recommend a good board to get?  I'm really curious now.

Mayia

[Kyrsten]

duuf wrote:

K take the math  a little farther with Fortissimo for 10 more Double AttackDual Wield (84.6DR + 70.7Dr) / 1.33 =116.8DR + (116.8 DR * .1) for Double Attack = 128.4DR  Sword & Board  84.6DR + (84.6DR * .54) for DA  = 130.3DRAMAZING^2Your belief that STA is [Removed for Content] is in my opinion totally unfounded.

What is your DA while dual wielding?  It looks like almost nothing in these examples.

[duuf]

TKyrsten wrote:

duuf wrote:

K take the math  a little farther with Fortissimo for 10 more Double AttackDual Wield (84.6DR + 70.7Dr) / 1.33 =116.8DR + (116.8 DR * .1) for Double Attack = 128.4DR  Sword & Board  84.6DR + (84.6DR * .54) for DA  = 130.3DRAMAZING^2Your belief that STA is [Removed for Content] is in my opinion totally unfounded.

What is your DA while dual wielding?  It looks like almost nothing in these examples.

The example is for the OP weapons and based on just what STA brings to the table.  Under this example only the 10DA from STA is calculated for dual wield.But you bring up an excellent point that the more DA DW gets the better v S&B.  Sigh... more math using my dirge and the much maligned DR (bet most of you  are like me look at DR 1st, then delay and spread and finally stats and procs). Weapons            DRLamentation   120.9Wormtooth     102.1 44 DA for S&B with 8 points:Dual Wield (120.9DR + 102.1Dr) / 1.33 = 167.6DRSword & Board  120.9DR + (120.9 * .44) for Double Attack = 174.1DR54 DA (Fortissimo 10 extra)Dual Wield (120.9DR + 102.1Dr) / 1.33 = 167.6DR + 167.6 *.1 = 184.4DRSword & Board  120.9DR + (120.9 * .54) for Double Attack = 186.2DR66 DA (Equipment 12 extra - my current status)Dual Wield (120.9DR + 102.1Dr) / 1.33 = 167.6DR + 167.6 *.22 = 204.6DRSword & Board  120.9DR + (120.9 * .66) for Double Attack = 200.7DRThe break even point for my dirge about 58DAEven with my dirge on the wrong side of the benefit curve I continue to use S&B because of survival concerns.  The DW advantage at 66 DA ain't worth diddly when you are taking more dirt naps.