Wizz / Warlock dps Were'd it go???

[Saintedone]

The point is simply that the dps is way down comparitively

Our class's WAR/WIZZ were build as the glass cannons and now were like singleshot glass shotguns, slow dps high agro, and situational at best. I know im in the top ten hardest hitters on Vox Warlocks and I played to 80 as a wiz and now in T8 raids as well as regular instances scout class's ranger/swash anyway - out dps me in all but one zone, and the swash can trade that zone off with me very easily.

At what point doesnt track/CA's/bitchen auto attk/in combat evac/ not to mention all the fun AA's that drop target (pvp) and more become enough. I love the caster classes across the board but SOE is doing very little to make us valuable in most settings. Very elementary T8 kitable content (unless low value faction stuff, anyone can single kill).

I wouldnt even bring these facts up if it wernt SO in your face, I know im hitten these mobs to the best of my ability and simply cant match up with some of the scout classes.

A possable sollution would be a revamp of the sorser AA lines because they are so limited baced on 140 AA vrs the CA lines of scouts.

Keep MS (sta) for defence and revamp the spellcasting (str,agi,int), to bring our dps inline with RoK.

My 2cp Saintz  

[Jeepned2]

interstellarmatter wrote:

I have to agree with you on this.  Warlocks are the red headed step kids of SOE.  My warlock pretty much retired around LU13 and there really isn't a desire to pick her back up.

After RoK came out, it was the scouts who were gimped in raids due to hits and paper classes never getting resisted.  Now, the circle is complete.  I expect them next to fix mages and [Removed for Content] healers.

You are joking of course.....right?  Try a Coercer sometime then.  Between the Assassins, Rangers, Wizards and Warlocks all crying that thier DPS isn't where it should be, you would think you all where getting out parsed by ....... Coercers or some deeply disturbing thing like that.  Of the four just listed, from what I've seen in my raiding guild is only the Warlock really has any room to complain. In about 60% of our fights one of the Wizards is always on top, the other 40% by the Assassins. We don't have a Ranger anymore, he betrayed to Assassin. (Something about arrows).  How about SoE taking the 25% DPS that they took away from our pets and just give it to you guys? Would that make you happy?  Or we can nerf the Assassins and make the Wizards and Rangers happy? How about nerfing the scout classes to make the Wizards and Warlocks (and Necro and Conjurors) happy? Personally I'd prefer that the Wizards take thier whining back to your class specific pages cause that is all it is...whining. If you don't have a Troub and an Illusioinist in your group, whine to the raid leader, I can't help you. There are only a few raid mobs that Wizards shouldn't be No#1 or No# 2 on the list. Now that Rangers arrows are getting fixed (they are aren't they?), they should be ok for awhile. For Warlocks, not sure what they can do to help you, just not enough fights with multiple mobs out there for you to shine. Heck, I'm a Coercer and can't out DPS a Fury (especially those with mythical epics), and you are complaining that you (Wizards) aren't no#1 on every parse? Go away.

[Saintedone]

 Of corse it was my point at the beginning of the thread to ONLY take into accout the issues with Sorcer's not all the mages, I agree that corcers need a revamp to some degrea, but Im talking about Wiz/Locks - When the game went live we were build as the DPS of the game. Why now are we secondary to scouts in dps... Lets look at a fix for our dps and not all mage classes because i see Illy's doing fine, Conj's doing fine, Nec's doing fine - NONE OF WICH were build as the dps for the game.

 I know plenty of wizzies who hit DAMB hard and with 140 AA a wizz can always use mannaburn for that extra dps in a single target fight for wich they lose all there power pool. So while the wizzies get a nice wiz AA line to burst dps (when target is below 50%) the warlocks have no real burst dps our spell timers kill us. Gear up in RoK and max out your spellcast recovery and spellcasting and your completely vulnerable to anything dot,aoe, or dd as well as sitting in about 650 int. Not even sort of a trade off. Most wizzies can out dps mannaburn anyway but it is technically burst dps.

 IMO there is no reason for any class to out DPS a Wizz single target or Lock in a group incounter, thats what we were made for. I see it everyday in T8, why take a 2k wiz when you can take a 2.5k ranger or swash/[Removed for Content], why take a 3k lock when you can take 3.5k ranger or swash/[Removed for Content] in group incounters zones. Its a math game and were on the loosing side of it when you look at it as a hole. Thats what SOE made us Glass Cannons for, and now theres only room for 1 caster group in raids while theres always 2-3 scout groups. The only reason to have a few casters in raids is for some buffs or we probably wouldnt see them any more. Its the path were taking as far as I can see. I dont believe it should be that way and dont believe theres nothing SOE can do about it.

They can fix our AA lines to come more inline with RoK and T8+ content coming down the line, make us the dps classes were suppose to be. I really dont think any scout would even have a problem with it because we all know they have the easy button these days with 900-1100 auto atks to fall back on.

Saintz

[Daghammerskold]

Since you brought conj up...Why shouldn't conj do as much damage as wizards, or more even, if it is supposedly balanced against utility?What utility do conj bring to a raid? CoH, shards, and the occasional pet pull. Wizards don't bring much more but they don't bring much less either. CoH vs port/evac. Shard vs manafeed. The assorted buffs different mages get balance each other out. Both get a melee proc to put on the troub (lol) and a damage shield for the tank.If there is a necro on the raid for hearts and pet pulls, do you really need to bring a conj just to CoH stragglers?Soloability?Wizards win there. Conj get only a single target root. Wizards get that and an AE root. They can kill things that demolish our tank pets. There's a reason plat farmers roll wizards.Since wizards were designed to be the better soloing class, obviously conjurors should out-dps them on raids to keep things balanced.

---

Wanna play this game against assassins?manafeed = hatefeedRo's Blade = Apply Toxinsport = pathfindingevac = evacGlacialshield = nothingVelium Gift = nothingConverge = nothingConsolidation = nothingTyrant's Pact = nothingOk...manafeed doesn't really equal hatefeed. Hate transfer is really kind of a big one but it is the only one assassins bring and if they are anywhere but the MT group it is a mixed blessing. Apply Toxins is the ONLY single target buff assassins have and pathfinding is the ONLY group buff.Soloability?Have you ever seen an assassin plat farmer?

[Jeepned2]

Daghammerskold wrote:

Since you brought conj up...Why shouldn't conj do as much damage as wizards, or more even, if it is supposedly balanced against utility?What utility do conj bring to a raid? CoH, shards, and the occasional pet pull. Wizards don't bring much more but they don't bring much less either. CoH vs port/evac. Shard vs manafeed. The assorted buffs different mages get balance each other out. Both get a melee proc to put on the troub (lol) and a damage shield for the tank.If there is a necro on the raid for hearts and pet pulls, do you really need to bring a conj just to CoH stragglers?Soloability?Wizards win there. Conj get only a single target root. Wizards get that and an AE root. They can kill things that demolish our tank pets. There's a reason plat farmers roll wizards.Since wizards were designed to be the better soloing class, obviously conjurors should out-dps them on raids to keep things balanced.

---

You want the hard or the easy answer? 

The easy answer is that SoE never intended for Summoners to ever out DPS Wizards or Assassins. Remember the good ole days when tiers meant something?  Wizards and Assassins where tier 1, Summoners tier 2. If it was based on Utility Coercers would be out dpsing Summoners any day. (a submarginal hate...which is why many have lost thier place in the MT group, and mana regen. Woot...look out for the utility! Oh, crap...forgot the dps buff so guess I should only be out dpsing zerkers, dirges, troubys and furys instead. And for those who bring up mezzes and stuns, don't go there, they are so nerfed in raid zones to be almost totally useless). As far as I know, it was never a guilding principle of SoE to balance classes based on utility. Think that is something that got started here in forums and repeated so much as to make it sound like it was SoE's policy. And since dev's seldom (never if you are a Coercer) come in to the class forums to explain anything, this idea of utility got started and was never shut down by the devs.

The hard answer is that if wizards where not one of the top parsers, there really wouldn't be a need for them, at least in a raid environment. (Caviot here, I mostly raid, so most of my answers are directed in that arena). As for comparing CoH vs port/evac, bad comparison. When way down in say..VP... we need people called to us, not ported out. Shard vs manafeed? Umm not sure there, but can't imagine a wizard stopping thier dpsing to provide manafeed to people all over the place.  At least they finally gave a MGB (mass group buff for non-EQ1ers) for the shard, I always hated holding up the raid while I handed out 23 shards. So for the raid environment the Conjuror does bring more utility. Do you really need to bring a Conjuror to the raid for anything? Well they are T2 Dps'ers, so I say yes, but like a lot of classes now days, I only need to bring one. And if we want to say that utility should decide DPS, then the Bruiser should probably out do everyone. But not for sure on that since we haven't had a Bruiser in the guild for a long time and are not looking for one. I've seen both Conjurors and Necros do some fantastic dps. On some occassions topping the list (ok rare, but it does happen). But even on the rare occasions that it does happen, it just upsets the Assassins and Wizards to no end.  And oh my, should No#1 and No#2 are say a Conjuror and a Swashbuckler, the Assassins and Wizards can't get to the forums fast enough to complain about it. Now here is the sad part of this story. Who is SoE going to listen to,  two of the most played classes (Assassin and Wizards) or summoners who are down the list a ways? The same two classes that SoE has promised almost from day one that they would be the big boys (and girls) on the block. Rangers and Warlocks where suppose to be in that group too, not sure what happened to them. So bottom line, don't expect summoners to be the top parsers if SoE has anything to do about it.  It's just like Coercers never being fixed, only nerfed, It's the way it's always been, and it's the way it always will be. So where does that leave the Conjuror? Right where they are now, a needed class for raids, but not the higher DPS class. Be thankful that you are needed, even if you think that you are barely needed. I know some Bruisers, SKs, Paladins and Coercers that would love to be in your position.

[slippery]

If as a Wizard you are not topping the parse you need to reexamine what you are doing, because you are doing something wrong. Either that or your raid leader is doing something wrong with group setup. Or Both.Look at some of the parses here http://www.eq2flames.com/wizards/48...-thread-12.html and then tell me Wizards can't dps...

[Freliant]

As a wizard, I have to say, we are not broken. We may not be at the top of the parse every single fight, but I dare anyone to say we are not doing T1 dps in all fights (provided we are not dead and drooling on the floor). The ranger class and the coercer class need alot more help than we do at the moment. Sure the odd scout (assassin) will outparse us in almost any situation, but we as a whole are where we need to be.

Solo - I do great

Group - I do great

Raid - I do great

There are other classes that have more of a right to fight about how they are doing instead of us, and I feel really insulted that this topic was even brought up.

[Windowlicker]

Freliant wrote:

As a wizard, I have to say, we are not broken. We may not be at the top of the parse every single fight, but I dare anyone to say we are not doing T1 dps in all fights (provided we are not dead and drooling on the floor). The ranger class and the coercer class need alot more help than we do at the moment. Sure the odd scout (assassin) will outparse us in almost any situation, but we as a whole are where we need to be.

Solo - I do great

Group - I do great

Raid - I do great

There are other classes that have more of a right to fight about how they are doing instead of us, and I feel really insulted that this topic was even brought up.

I agree, there's nothing wrong with Wizards.Warlocks are broken.

[gi]

I play a wizard and  have noticed that I am consistently out DPS'd by Necro/Conjy's Assasins and others. Part of the problem is even with maxed Agility AA we just can't cast fast enough on Heroic mobs to keep up.. Things are a little better on raids, but I only raid once a week :/

I don't think we are broken.. but could probably do with tweaking, I cannot comment for warlocks as I don't play one.

[Macross_JR]

For you wiz/warlocks out there who are crying that you are getting out dps'ed, it's not the class that needs help.  You are getting out dps'd by better players.  It's that simple.  I raid with wiz/warlocks and they are pretty much at the top.  We have maybe 2-3 scouts that are usually up on the list but it's a swash, ranger, assassin.  So in ending, learn your class better and you will be fine.

[Errolflynn]

There may not be a problem in raids but there is in group content.I find it easier to do DPS on my Swashy who is a level lower than my Warlock and my Warlock has better gear. I think the problem is that the fights are too short, did CoA last night on my Swash and most fights lasted about 10 seconds. If I was playing my Warlock I would of just gotten going by then.

[gi]

Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:

For you wiz/warlocks out there who are crying that you are getting out dps'ed, it's not the class that needs help.  You are getting out dps'd by better players.  It's that simple.  I raid with wiz/warlocks and they are pretty much at the top.  We have maybe 2-3 scouts that are usually up on the list but it's a swash, ranger, assassin.  So in ending, learn your class better and you will be fine.

lol, who's crying.. Most of what I have seen in this thread is discussion...

[Skwor]

Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:

For you wiz/warlocks out there who are crying that you are getting out dps'ed, it's not the class that needs help.  You are getting out dps'd by better players.  It's that simple.  I raid with wiz/warlocks and they are pretty much at the top.  We have maybe 2-3 scouts that are usually up on the list but it's a swash, ranger, assassin.  So in ending, learn your class better and you will be fine.

Maybe your swash's, rangers and assassins are just very poor players. "It's that simple." So in the end they need to learn thier class better and they will outparse your sorcerers.

Raiding anything under orange the melee classes own the parse pure and simple on high end. Orange mobs the cloth was doing marginally better. I hope ths latest nerf (hit rate increase as melee call it) doesn't finally break the camels back and make melee DPS reign supreme in all raid encounters yellow and orange. Sure looks like it will though.

If a ranger out DPS's sorcerer (there goes range dps) and assassins out DPS sorcerers that makes cloth DPS useless, and knock the crap of about utility. Name one sorcerer buff a raid force has ever considered needed, that's right NONE!

We have now seen two patches totally hammer cloth DPS, first the cast hit / resistance nerf, the wizard epic correction, the hit rate adjustment for melee and the arrows for rangers. Can we stop kicking sorcerers in the groin, please!

 Here is a thought. How many of you knew a wizard has to be inside 10 meters to do thier max dps? Guess what, that means wizards have to joust (guess we ain't true range DPS). RANGERS are always at 35 meters. So much for the range class argument for wizards.

Now if assassins own close in DPS and Rangers never joust and own range DPS and no one cares about sorcerers buffs for raids  what does that do to cloth DPS who CAN NOT TANK, unlike scouts. Sorcerers are systematically being made useless.

Someone explian why a ranger who always stays at 35 meters and has better survivability should out DPS a sorcerer who actually has to be inside 10 meters to max DPS and has less survivability?

Someone explian why the top 4 parse classes should all be melee? let's see Assassin's, Rangers, Swashies, Brigands, uhm what is the point of cloth DPS then? Sorcerers give everything up to be just DPS let's see a little parity please.

[Xisi]

It seems that rogues are doing too much damage considering they have way more utilities than sorcerers. Often times, brigands/swashy are competing with sorcerers in raid DPS. That just upsets me to no end. Everything else looks fine. Case closed.

[Skwor]

Well after two days of parses it is really looking like rangers got to much. If a ranger isn't topping the parse they don't know thier class. Sorcerers are royally screwed imo. I know 2 days isn't long but the jump in DPS is glaringly obvious. Oh and pulling out my original books for eq2 there is nothing there about rangers doing damage and a search of posts even shows they are tier 2 DPS (per the Dev's themselves posts), odd since wizards where supposed to be tier 1 and now an entire melee class (preds)  owns them. Gratz SOE.

 Why can a ranger be all range damage but sorceres spells have 5 meter ranges? Shouldn't a ranger be a paper tiger also? At least make them one hit wonders so they die as easily as cloth. Throw us a bone here and at least make it look like you understand the game you manage.

Again for the utility crowd tell me what wizard utility you actually have used! Not what you have read about.

[Windowlicker]

Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:

For you wiz/warlocks out there who are crying that you are getting out dps'ed, it's not the class that needs help.  You are getting out dps'd by better players.  It's that simple.  I raid with wiz/warlocks and they are pretty much at the top.  We have maybe 2-3 scouts that are usually up on the list but it's a swash, ranger, assassin.  So in ending, learn your class better and you will be fine.

Ok here's the key phrase: "You raid" with wiz/warlocks and they are "pretty much" at the top.  Someone who's playing a T1 class should be at the top, or pretty close to it if they know what they're doing.My raid damage is fine, I've said it before and I'll say it again .. this is *not* the problem.Our damage is suffering in all other content currently.  This is mainly due to almost no multi-mob encounters, and mobs that are paper thin.

[gehlbg07]

I can certainly understand where you are coming from, seeing how wizards use to be far overpowered. But now I would say they are where they should be, maybe it's just that the scout classes are overpowered. SoE really messed up when they made the scout classes so powerful. If they had just nerfed wizzies a little bit it would have been a fairly even exchange. But really, who cares how much DPS you do? If you're still helping out as best you can, then just enjoy the game and have fun. My wizzy used to be able to solo triple up arrow heroics 3 levels higher than him, but now he can only solo triple ups his level. Still, you're not supposed to be able to solo heroics, they are supposed to be group mobs. That's why when you scroll over the con it says "you may need a couple friends to take this one down." Wizzy/lock dps is fine. Maybe scout classes are a little overpowered, good for them. But almost every class has been overpowered at one point. If they were to get it totally perfect, then we would just have a utopian MMORPG now wouldn't we? I think EQ2 is fine as is and I love to play it, period. If you don't maybe this isn't the MMORPG for you. The time of the scouts has come but it will be over before you know it, then another class will be overpowered. I think if anybody's overpowered right now though it is Furies. They are healers and have nukes that rival those of the wizard classes. Either way, if you want to play to be the most overpowered, roll a scout. If not, play your wizzy/lock and enjoy it. I still do...

[Skwor]

gehlbg07 wrote:

I can certainly understand where you are coming from, seeing how wizards use to be far overpowered. But now I would say they are where they should be, maybe it's just that the scout classes are overpowered. SoE really messed up when they made the scout classes so powerful. If they had just nerfed wizzies a little bit it would have been a fairly even exchange. But really, who cares how much DPS you do? If you're still helping out as best you can, then just enjoy the game and have fun. My wizzy used to be able to solo triple up arrow heroics 3 levels higher than him, but now he can only solo triple ups his level. Still, you're not supposed to be able to solo heroics, they are supposed to be group mobs. That's why when you scroll over the con it says "you may need a couple friends to take this one down." Wizzy/lock dps is fine. Maybe scout classes are a little overpowered, good for them. But almost every class has been overpowered at one point. If they were to get it totally perfect, then we would just have a utopian MMORPG now wouldn't we? I think EQ2 is fine as is and I love to play it, period. If you don't maybe this isn't the MMORPG for you. The time of the scouts has come but it will be over before you know it, then another class will be overpowered. I think if anybody's overpowered right now though it is Furies. They are healers and have nukes that rival those of the wizard classes. Either way, if you want to play to be the most overpowered, roll a scout. If not, play your wizzy/lock and enjoy it. I still do...

If you raid and have just seen 5 nerfs specifically designed to make your class less effective come out in the last 2 updates that is pretty much a FUN KILLER. I can agree wizards could arguably be where they should but only if the egregiously overpowered melee DPS gets corrected. Otherwise sorcerers are in bad need of a DPS upgrade. This wouldn't be so aggravating if it wasn't called out even before these patches but it was, and yet here we are.

Honestly the level of swings class charactersitcs keep taking with patches should be embarrassing to developers. Imagine taking your car to the shop for a tune up and one day it comes back sucking down gas and doing 0-60 in 2 seconds then the next time you get 100 mpg but you go from 0-60 in 3 days. I think most of us would suspect the mechanics were pretty clueless.

[gehlbg07]

Nice analogy. Or you could be a Templar and your car would get 2 miles to the gallon and still go 0-60 in 3 days...

[Skwor]

gehlbg07 wrote:

Nice analogy. Or you could be a Templar and your car would get 2 miles to the gallon and still go 0-60 in 3 days...

Well at least you are a must for raids! Can't say as much for cloth DPS now.

[Saintedone]

All of you players that seem to think the wizzy/War dps issue was to overpowered "get a clue - they were build at start of the game and developed at start of game as the cannons of the game period". How would you feel if you see every class with an auto attack catching your dps. Its rediculous to asume that a scout class should do more damage than a spell caster in any fantacy game. Same goes for rangers other than magical bows and such in a fantacy game.

The scout classes IMO were to be a balance for caster classes and now there ruling over them because they do more damage faster than we can cast. When you add auto attk to ca's in 3sec you out damage us by 20%(on-average) even when we are 50+ casting crits. I know this because I play hand in hand with a swash buddy and weve been breaking this down for months now. Any instances and raids we are always parcing to see what were doing right and wrong, we parse single targets, mutiple targets, names and raid mobs. Weve tried different spell sets and timed it all out. When there auto attks get added to there ca's we dont have the time or the power to keep up in short or long fights. My bud recycles his CA's fatsre than i can even with all the spell casting haste us clothies can get ahold of in RoK. My wife is an Illy even with her buffs im come up short because of power issues on a long fight. The swashy can always fall back on auto attk and switch out poisons for instant power to fill his bar.

I DONT WANT ANY CLASSES NERFED, I want what we had and were built for and thats raid level dps FOR REAL. If the scout classes have soured to new hights why havent the sourc classes done the same. Scouts hit faster and do +++ damage, we can cast fractionally faster via AA's/gear but its no were inline with the scouts and our damage has only scaled up with the tiers. I know i've read quite a few of the threads in here for wizzies and i see some real eletes out there, the perfect group - the 3+years of raid gear and master spells all i can say is /bow. Warlocks on the otherhand are in serious throughs with almost all content scaled to single target (i know there are a few group encounters). The epics I beleave were trying to address the issue but really IMO do a diservice to our class, YAY my broodling work - its not the answer, not a fix, just a step and if you cant get your mythicle weapon, well your in the same boat for real. Scale up our single target damage scale up focus casting, Rework casting AA's to be inline with CA's (IMO not). Anyway enough of the venting, its just why I have made my sorc class, EQlive you still cant touch the Glass Cannons. Im not pointing fingers at scout classes like ther bad or need nerfing Im saying we were put in this game to be the top and were not, and with every update/exspansion there is more reason to play a scout and less reason to be a sorcerer.

Be well all,

Saintz

   

[Rqron]

Banditman wrote:

Wizards and Warlocks alike are fine.  Go play with the Training Wall in KJ and see how you do.The problem is the fight length in non-raid content.  It has gotten progressively shorter over the course of the many combat updates.

Correct, and with the long casting times for the wizard nukes you get maybe one off and a couple..maybe..of smaller spells and thats it, mob is down. There are nukes that I don't use in some groups for some mobs because of the long cast times and the problem with ripping agro from mediocre tanks and wannabe tanks. So I start out with low level spells and by the time I cast 2 or 3 the fight is over. This of course is different with a good tank and a group where I can nuke at my hearts content without ripping agro..thats where I love a pally :=))..but even then, the long casting time lowers the DPS quite a bit..not recast time but the actual time it takes to cast a spell. If you know the tank and know the way he is pulling you can time it so that you start casting ahead of time...but only if you know the tank well and you have done a lot of groups together..in PU groups with several fighters and scouts a wiz will be at the lower end of the parse because by the time that darn nuke executes the mob is death.  Especially in an encounter that has several unlinked mobs and they are being attacked by the other fighters and aoes..a lot of times when the tank switches target, the mob is already 1/2 to 2/3rds down and dies faster then the wiz can execute a spell.. it is frustrating at times.J.C.

[Rqron]

Skwor wrote:

Well after two days of parses it is really looking like rangers got to much. If a ranger isn't topping the parse they don't know thier class. Sorcerers are royally screwed imo. I know 2 days isn't long but the jump in DPS is glaringly obvious. Oh and pulling out my original books for eq2 there is nothing there about rangers doing damage and a search of posts even shows they are tier 2 DPS (per the Dev's themselves posts), odd since wizards where supposed to be tier 1 and now an entire melee class (preds)  owns them. Gratz SOE.

 Why can a ranger be all range damage but sorceres spells have 5 meter ranges? Shouldn't a ranger be a paper tiger also? At least make them one hit wonders so they die as easily as cloth. Throw us a bone here and at least make it look like you understand the game you manage.

Again for the utility crowd tell me what wizard utility you actually have used! Not what you have read about.

Well, all we really need is a dev that likes to play a wizard and raids...then we will get everything others get... Devs actively playing on live servers  =  favoritism to whatever class they are playing.J.C.

[yzyh]

Daghammerskold wrote:

Since you brought conj up...Why shouldn't conj do as much damage as wizards, or more even, if it is supposedly balanced against utility?What utility do conj bring to a raid? CoH, shards, and the occasional pet pull. Wizards don't bring much more but they don't bring much less either. CoH vs port/evac. Shard vs manafeed. The assorted buffs different mages get balance each other out. Both get a melee proc to put on the troub (lol) and a damage shield for the tank.If there is a necro on the raid for hearts and pet pulls, do you really need to bring a conj just to CoH stragglers?Soloability?Wizards win there. Conj get only a single target root. Wizards get that and an AE root. They can kill things that demolish our tank pets. There's a reason plat farmers roll wizards.Since wizards were designed to be the better soloing class, obviously conjurors should out-dps them on raids to keep things balanced.

---

Wanna play this game against assassins?manafeed = hatefeedRo's Blade = Apply Toxinsport = pathfindingevac = evacGlacialshield = nothingVelium Gift = nothingConverge = nothingConsolidation = nothingTyrant's Pact = nothingOk...manafeed doesn't really equal hatefeed. Hate transfer is really kind of a big one but it is the only one assassins bring and if they are anywhere but the MT group it is a mixed blessing. Apply Toxins is the ONLY single target buff assassins have and pathfinding is the ONLY group buff.Soloability?Have you ever seen an assassin plat farmer?

Myself I always wondered that. We don't care about soloability. You can give a class bether group and raid viability bcuz it isn't as good at soloing. That was the excuse in EQ1 (even if wizard out solo mage in open area).

If a class can,t solo. boost tis solo ability, Not tis grouping ability.

[yzyh]

Saintedone wrote:

All of you players that seem to think the wizzy/War dps issue was to overpowered "get a clue - they were build at start of the game and developed at start of game as the cannons of the game period". How would you feel if you see every class with an auto attack catching your dps. Its rediculous to asume that a scout class should do more damage than a spell caster in any fantacy game. Same goes for rangers other than magical bows and such in a fantacy game.

hee why that ? Bcuz rogues can handle getting hit 1more time b4 they die in a raid ? (lets say they die 1sec after the mages).

Actualy to make sense the rogues should be top DPS and mages a bit behind but with utility. (like buffs, debuff etc). Its just make sense that magical class have lets say magical tool. While a none magical class ..well they can't use magical power how could they have a real buff keeping that role playing ?

Now I have nothing agaisnt see mages (exept necro and chanter since they have more utility then me) out dpsing my brigand. Bcuz my brigand debuff alone are a big reason to pick me ina  raid/ group. But I don,t see any reason why a lock/wizzy should always out dps an assassin, And ATM the ranger should be top DPS since they have not a single utility to a raid.

Even if I kinda dislike WoW, rogues are top DPS mage are behind (exept in AoE content) but mage have ubber utility.

[Skwor]

yzyh wrote:

Saintedone wrote:

All of you players that seem to think the wizzy/War dps issue was to overpowered "get a clue - they were build at start of the game and developed at start of game as the cannons of the game period". How would you feel if you see every class with an auto attack catching your dps. Its rediculous to asume that a scout class should do more damage than a spell caster in any fantacy game. Same goes for rangers other than magical bows and such in a fantacy game.

hee why that ? Bcuz rogues can handle getting hit 1more time b4 they die in a raid ? (lets say they die 1sec after the mages).

Actualy to make sense the rogues should be top DPS and mages a bit behind but with utility. (like buffs, debuff etc). Its just make sense that magical class have lets say magical tool. While a none magical class ..well they can't use magical power how could they have a real buff keeping that role playing ?

Now I have nothing agaisnt see mages (exept necro and chanter since they have more utility then me) out dpsing my brigand. Bcuz my brigand debuff alone are a big reason to pick me ina  raid/ group. But I don,t see any reason why a lock/wizzy should always out dps an assassin, And ATM the ranger should be top DPS since they have not a single utility to a raid.

Even if I kinda dislike WoW, rogues are top DPS mage are behind (exept in AoE content) but mage have ubber utility.

Again I ask. Name one raid spell anyone here has asked for from a wizard on raids?? Just one. Tell me what Raid spell does a wizard bring?? Zip, ZERO, NADA. So until someone can really show where a wizard has brought utility to a raid just give up on that horse. Also again, if you say mana feed try again, at a 4 second cast and a 17.5 second refresh for 309 power (and that is only if it is a master!) it makes extremely little impact to the raid. In fact I  have often spammed that spell on healers to try to feed mana only to have them vigoruosly complian that I need to feed them mana ( as if I wasn't even feeding them ). SO as we can see it doesn't even get noticed when it is spammed in raid. If the spell does not have a noticable affect it is not of value! and that is as close as a wizard can get to a raid spell.

 To the tank thing your logic is flawed, often surviving 1 hit means the MT has time to regain agro so having scouts survive one hit is a HUGE difference. Being one shoted means just that, your screwed. I also don't buy the "oh scouts at best survive one hit more conept." Are you even aware that some raid fights actually used scouts to tank??? They are a bit more rugged than the 2 hit wonders you would have us believe.

 If a class has the lowest survivability and near to and even arguably lowest utility to a raid then that class should at least top the parse a higher percentage of the time. This indeed describes wizards and warlocks. Keep in mind that until the last patch wizards and warlocks only topped the parse for orange fights, which means melee owned the parse on everything yellow and below. Now SOE would even out (and possibly now has melee exceeding) the DPS of sorcerers on orange fights. THIS IS UNBALANCED AND BROKEN!

 We are so gimped now that often on grouping or mutli encounter raids we can't get a spell off becuase the melee is killing the mobs to quickly. Imagine that, now as a wizard I can't even get a cast off before the melee has the mob dead. Just how stinking useful is a wizard now? This is again BROKEN> I would like to be able to participate but SOE has melee killing things to fast for a wizards spells to even get casted. How can you not see this as BROKEN. The sorceres are being made obsolete in this expansion.

[Xisi]

yzyh wrote:

hee why that ? Bcuz rogues can handle getting hit 1more time b4 they die in a raid ? (lets say they die 1sec after the mages).

Actualy to make sense the rogues should be top DPS and mages a bit behind but with utility. (like buffs, debuff etc). Its just make sense that magical class have lets say magical tool. While a none magical class ..well they can't use magical power how could they have a real buff keeping that role playing ?

Now I have nothing agaisnt see mages (exept necro and chanter since they have more utility then me) out dpsing my brigand. Bcuz my brigand debuff alone are a big reason to pick me ina  raid/ group. But I don,t see any reason why a lock/wizzy should always out dps an assassin, And ATM the ranger should be top DPS since they have not a single utility to a raid.

Even if I kinda dislike WoW, rogues are top DPS mage are behind (exept in AoE content) but mage have ubber utility.

Uber utility?  Making food and water? Int buff that only affect tiny bit of mana?Even if sorcerers and assassins both have little utility that are of significant value to raiding, sorcerers have power issue to worry about.  Most mobs have raid-wide aoe, mages usually have much less health pool.  There is no reason that predators should out-parse sorcerers.  Even worse, rogues are doing comparable DPS to our sorcerers consistently.  How is that not broken? Sadly enough, our raids are filled with melee classes but 1 sorcerers, 1 or 2 summoners and the rest are there to buff melee classes.  Rogue dps is simply broken.  I don't play sorcerer, but when I see a brigand is consistently ourparsing a wizzy, I don't know why the raid should bring a sorcerer, let alone a warlock instead of a brigand, except to pick up mage loots. Again,

[Xisi]

Also totally agree with the above poster that rogues are often used as tanks for some mobs.  Here is another good utility that rogues have over mages.  I have never seen a mage being used as tank.  Your survival 1 hit argument is dishonest.  I don't see how a rogue can tank if he can only survive one hit constantly.  Maybe you are talking about unfortunate uber double attacks, well then plate tanks will often die from it too.  Even if you are correct that rogues can only survive 1 hit, that 1 hit is what healers need to heal you back to full.  You perfectly know how valuable timing is to healers if you ever raided.  Mages dying to 1 hit simply mean healers don't have any chance to heal mages.

[Skwor]

Now SOE appearantly beleive the support cloth classes need more DPS, wonderful. Surging Tempest is still broke but they won't fix that. Sorcerers have no desired utility in raid or group but tthey decide to give more DPS to illy's and coecers. Why doesn't SoE just post that they want to reduce the subclasses and tell us wizards and warlock will be deleted or morphed in support classes.

Sorcerers already have no or barely little time to even cast a spell to kill a mob before the melee kills it. What exactly is left for what was supposed to be the Tier 1 DPS cloth class?

[Pathin Merrithay]

There's not really much argument here.

Caster DPS has dropped by at least 10% since the last Live Update. Scout DPS has increased by more then that. Either one or the other had to happen, but not both. Either upgrade caster DPS, or re-nerf Scouts.