do lvl4s really need access to a 68+ expansion?

[ke'la]

Veirna@Mistmoore wrote:

I don't craft so perhaps that is why i didn't see any quests for tradeskilling. All i know is, at 70+, I have a hell of a hard time running around without getting a pound of agro from everything. I've got my little rhino to haul me around.My first experience with a ghoster was a lvl2 dirge in Karnor's. First time there ever, and I saw this MASSIVE train of drolvarg sentries. besides my group of 6 there was no one there except the lvl2. I was like "uhm. we have a train..." but it never arrived. it just kept going all over the zone, eventually getting so large that i was getting 6fps. I said in /ooc that dude was lagging us. and he disappeared. no lag.yesterday in jarsath, i kept seeing the highspeeding stealthed ghost zogilie or so, level 4 dirge, crossing my path for several hours.I like to explore too, and granted, locking out lower levels isn't the best idea. but to be honest I care more about having an even more destroyed economy than I do having the ability to explore KC at level 2.Sony seems far too lazy to actually disable/ban/fix the ghosting deal, and would probably put a level cap in place instead, if they actually do anything at all.I suppose for the crafting people, they could make a craftable portal to Teren's =PA lot of you seemed to take my initial post in with venom, and I wasn't targeting the legitimate players, obviously.

When you launch a Nuke at an issue, it's kinda disingenuos to say "sorry I was not targeting you". Level locking a zone is a Nuke level "fix" meaning ALOT more innocents will be caught in the blast wave then "Bad guys".

Also if you can't avoid agro in overland zones of RoK then your not trying to avoid agrro. RoK has some of the easiest zones to avoid agro in(even without faction). I can get around in KP, and Fens just fine without getting agrro, unless I am in a hurry, infact it's kinda fun to get to an area without getting agroed once. It's even more fun with the MoBs are VERY Red, wich is why we should not keep people from going there if they want to, as long as they are not breaking the rules.

[dawy]

Glad its not just me who doesnt like the idea of locking out expansion areas bad then For me its what sets this game apart,trying to sneak your way round a nice high level zone without being killed to be told you cant well frankly i think thats the day i'd quit the game

[TaleraRis]

Veirna@Mistmoore wrote:

I suppose for the crafting people, they could make a craftable portal to Teren's =P

It's not in Teren's that crafters are out gaining faction. 70 and higher crafters of any adventure level can do faction writs at Bathezid's Watch, Riliss, and Danak Shipyards. To gain the ability to use their sokokar, they must dodge aggro in Kylong Plains, and to become non-KoS with the writ givers and the other NPCs in the tradeskilling areas, they must dodge aggro in Fens and Jarsath Wastes. They do their crafting either in the Fens or in Jarsath, at the given areas. The lowest I've run the quest on so far is a 19. It's a very legitimate reason for lower adventure levels to be in these zones and a level limit would make RoK faction recipes and crafting only available to those who both adventure and craft at the higher levels.

[Jalanix]

One of my favorite things to do in my 20s was to farm shinies in Barren Sky.  It was fantastic money and pretty exciting dodging aggro from mobs that would kill me in one hit.  Sure I died A LOT at first, but I got better and better over time.  Now that the mobs are grey, even though the money is good it's not as much fun as it used to be so I don't do it anymore.  But in addition to the other things people have pointed out in this thread, this is another legitimate reason for a low level to be in a zone.  I also do not think that adding a skill level to collecting is very fair either.  There is no reason to punish legitimate players to stop the plat farmers/exploiters. The only acceptable course of action is to fix the speed hacks and/or ban the people using them. 

[Finora]

bleap wrote:

Maybe if SOE would ban the stupid artificial plat buyers or stupid artificial speed hackers  or stupid artificial plat farmers (who are probably the same stupid artificial speed hackers) this wouldn't be an issue...but since they won't something has to be done. They are cheating those of us who play nice.....

Yes by all means fix the stupid exploiters. That's a no brainer. But the OP (and you) seem to think that since there are hackers and cheaters that are of a low level, that no low levels should be allowed and that somehow that is a reasonable fix.

The rest of us are pointing out that, no that is not infact a legitimate fix at all. There are far too many legitimate players who would have their game play negatively affected for really no good reason at all.

Putting a level cap on the zone would only make the cheaters spend probably a couple days cheating there way past the level cap for the zone and then they'd continue on their merry way using their cheats to do exactly the same thing at the level cap =p. But I suppose that would be okay with you guys? Since they wouldn't be lowbies running around in zones that are too dangerous for them hum?

Level lock for zones won't work.

[Rqron]

Rattface@Nagafen wrote:

Josgar@Unrest wrote:

Crafters with low level adventure levels.

QFE.

I have a lvl 10 adventurer, lvl70 crafter and I harvest in RoK and very seldom get killed. I get more harassment from other players when I am on him  then when I harvest with my lvl 80 but thats to be expected of the ignorant. I agree, there should be a lvl lock. It should take either the crafting or the adventuring high lvl into account and lock everyone below 60 out. There are other ways into Qeynos from freeport and return so this argument is not really convincing. There is NO need for anyone with a lower lvl to ever go into those places. J.C.

[Rqron]

ke'la wrote:

Veirna@Mistmoore wrote:

I don't craft so perhaps that is why i didn't see any quests for tradeskilling. All i know is, at 70+, I have a hell of a hard time running around without getting a pound of agro from everything. I've got my little rhino to haul me around.My first experience with a ghoster was a lvl2 dirge in Karnor's. First time there ever, and I saw this MASSIVE train of drolvarg sentries. besides my group of 6 there was no one there except the lvl2. I was like "uhm. we have a train..." but it never arrived. it just kept going all over the zone, eventually getting so large that i was getting 6fps. I said in /ooc that dude was lagging us. and he disappeared. no lag.yesterday in jarsath, i kept seeing the highspeeding stealthed ghost zogilie or so, level 4 dirge, crossing my path for several hours.I like to explore too, and granted, locking out lower levels isn't the best idea. but to be honest I care more about having an even more destroyed economy than I do having the ability to explore KC at level 2.Sony seems far too lazy to actually disable/ban/fix the ghosting deal, and would probably put a level cap in place instead, if they actually do anything at all.I suppose for the crafting people, they could make a craftable portal to Teren's =PA lot of you seemed to take my initial post in with venom, and I wasn't targeting the legitimate players, obviously.

When you launch a Nuke at an issue, it's kinda disingenuos to say "sorry I was not targeting you". Level locking a zone is a Nuke level "fix" meaning ALOT more innocents will be caught in the blast wave then "Bad guys".

Also if you can't avoid agro in overland zones of RoK then your not trying to avoid agrro. RoK has some of the easiest zones to avoid agro in(even without faction). I can get around in KP, and Fens just fine without getting agrro, unless I am in a hurry, infact it's kinda fun to get to an area without getting agroed once. It's even more fun with the MoBs are VERY Red, wich is why we should not keep people from going there if they want to, as long as they are not breaking the rules.

Show me one legit reason a lvl2 player has in any of the mentioned instances like KC or Chardock or Seblis? There are NO shinies that are reachable anywhere without speed hacking as the mob will one shot you and you will never go anywhere especially with the higher agro range you will have because of you lower lvl. And isn't it interesting how many cry wolf as soon as people come up with ideas? Huu huu I am leaving the game if they put any lvl limits on instances...this is the reaction I expect to hear from a 5 year old that got his toy taken away or someone who exploits the area them self and sees his "exploid" go away. This is incredulous, If a lock will make it harder to exploid then SOE needs to do this. Yes it will do nothing to the higher lvl plat farmer exploiting this also but is will prevent the use of "quick and one time use expendable characters that can be gotten easy by using stolen credit card numbers.. it is harder and a lot more work to keep a character alive on a fraudulent card long enough to lvl him up past the limit and then actually use them long enough. If we can believe what SOEs reps say then stolen credit card numbers are the most prevailing use for this type of actions. A extreme short usage has a lot less risk of being tracked back IP wise then a prolonged use. Those lvl 2 characters are trow away accounts.And although I really advocate lvl limits on all zones, I do see where this can interfere with legit play...but opposing lvl limits to places like KC and Chardock and Seblis is short sighted at best. SOE should use ALL the different means to combat this and not limit them selfs and leaving back doors open.J.C.

[Jhanos]

Summary of best ideas in thread so far:

 Lvl based shiny gathering (since gathering is capped by highest adventer or crafter lvl this would not harm either side)

 Lvl based access based on highest crafting or adv level (again this would allow the crafters to get in)

Banhammer massacre of the cheaters (I highly endorse this one, but cheaters and plat sellers are like cockroaches, very hard to get them all)

[skerry]

Rqron wrote:

ke'la wrote:

Veirna@Mistmoore wrote:

I don't craft so perhaps that is why i didn't see any quests for tradeskilling. All i know is, at 70+, I have a hell of a hard time running around without getting a pound of agro from everything. I've got my little rhino to haul me around.My first experience with a ghoster was a lvl2 dirge in Karnor's. First time there ever, and I saw this MASSIVE train of drolvarg sentries. besides my group of 6 there was no one there except the lvl2. I was like "uhm. we have a train..." but it never arrived. it just kept going all over the zone, eventually getting so large that i was getting 6fps. I said in /ooc that dude was lagging us. and he disappeared. no lag.yesterday in jarsath, i kept seeing the highspeeding stealthed ghost zogilie or so, level 4 dirge, crossing my path for several hours.I like to explore too, and granted, locking out lower levels isn't the best idea. but to be honest I care more about having an even more destroyed economy than I do having the ability to explore KC at level 2.Sony seems far too lazy to actually disable/ban/fix the ghosting deal, and would probably put a level cap in place instead, if they actually do anything at all.I suppose for the crafting people, they could make a craftable portal to Teren's =PA lot of you seemed to take my initial post in with venom, and I wasn't targeting the legitimate players, obviously.

When you launch a Nuke at an issue, it's kinda disingenuos to say "sorry I was not targeting you". Level locking a zone is a Nuke level "fix" meaning ALOT more innocents will be caught in the blast wave then "Bad guys".

Also if you can't avoid agro in overland zones of RoK then your not trying to avoid agrro. RoK has some of the easiest zones to avoid agro in(even without faction). I can get around in KP, and Fens just fine without getting agrro, unless I am in a hurry, infact it's kinda fun to get to an area without getting agroed once. It's even more fun with the MoBs are VERY Red, wich is why we should not keep people from going there if they want to, as long as they are not breaking the rules.

Show me one legit reason a lvl2 player has in any of the mentioned instances like KC or Chardock or Seblis? There are NO shinies that are reachable anywhere without speed hacking as the mob will one shot you and you will never go anywhere especially with the higher agro range you will have because of you lower lvl. And isn't it interesting how many cry wolf as soon as people come up with ideas? Huu huu I am leaving the game if they put any lvl limits on instances...this is the reaction I expect to hear from a 5 year old that got his toy taken away or someone who exploits the area them self and sees his "exploid" go away. This is incredulous, If a lock will make it harder to exploid then SOE needs to do this. Yes it will do nothing to the higher lvl plat farmer exploiting this also but is will prevent the use of "quick and one time use expendable characters that can be gotten easy by using stolen credit card numbers.. it is harder and a lot more work to keep a character alive on a fraudulent card long enough to lvl him up past the limit and then actually use them long enough. If we can believe what SOEs reps say then stolen credit card numbers are the most prevailing use for this type of actions. A extreme short usage has a lot less risk of being tracked back IP wise then a prolonged use. Those lvl 2 characters are trow away accounts.And although I really advocate lvl limits on all zones, I do see where this can interfere with legit play...but opposing lvl limits to places like KC and Chardock and Seblis is short sighted at best. SOE should use ALL the different means to combat this and not limit them selfs and leaving back doors open.J.C.

One legit reason?   Because that person wants to go there.   As long as they are not breaking any rules, that is as legit as it gets and it doesn't need any more validation than that because it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  That person wants to, end of justification.

[skerry]

Jhanos wrote:

Summary of best ideas in thread so far:

 Lvl based shiny gathering (since gathering is capped by highest adventer or crafter lvl this would not harm either side)

 Lvl based access based on highest crafting or adv level (again this would allow the crafters to get in)

Banhammer massacre of the cheaters (I highly endorse this one, but cheaters and plat sellers are like cockroaches, very hard to get them all)

The only "best idea" in this list is the banhammer of cheaters.

Lvl based shiny? why?  Again suggesting to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.  Never a good idea, never a valid idea. 

Lvl based access? why?  See above.

All this limiting crap - why can't you folks see that punishing those who are NOT bothering anyone, NOT hurting anyone and NOT breaking the rules all because a small percentage of people ARE doing that is just about the lamest thing you can do?

Go after the cheaters yes, but leave the good people alone and let them do what they want.  So frustrating the lack of common sense and plague of knee jerk, sweeping solutions to stupid problems.

[Jehannum]

Jhanos wrote:

Summary of best ideas in thread so far:

 Lvl based shiny gathering (since gathering is capped by highest adventer or crafter lvl this would not harm either side)

 Lvl based access based on highest crafting or adv level (again this would allow the crafters to get in)

Banhammer massacre of the cheaters (I highly endorse this one, but cheaters and plat sellers are like cockroaches, very hard to get them all)

1. Stipulations on level based collecting ability: must be 'free' and acquire 5 points at the start of any given level.  must permit toons within 2-3 tiers of an area to harvest, and allow all 'larger' toons free rein.  Otherwise it unduly punishes legitimate players.  Realistically, if it can be implemented, this is the only reasonable solution I've seen in this thread.

2. Stipulations on level-based access to zone: must be granted to T8 zones as of level 50.  Non-cap zones appear not to be an issue, or we'd see similar problems cropping up in Faydwer.  I just don't like this solution in the first place, tending as it does to resemble the annoying access quests we used to have to endure for the T3-5 zones.

3. Idealism, thy name is (apparently) Jhanos.    Any such ban is bound to take down a number of legit users, and tie up resources dealing with people who'll ultimately cancel their accounts and drive their friends to do the same.  Bet that if Sony hasn't already done this, they have what they consider a pretty good reason for it.  Odds are, the negative repercussions (and yes, that probably does include loss of the 'illegitimate' account subscriptions) are estimated to be greater than any potential gains.  If they can figure out a way to do it without affecting the legit subscriptions, this will be the best path - but as I say, I consider the fact they haven't yet done it to be evidence that they don't currently believe they can.

[Valdaglerion]

Kendricke wrote:

Khamul@Nektulos wrote:

One solution would be to make shiny's the same as other nodes and require skill level to harvest the same as the other nodes for the zone.

I'd be very much in favor of such a change.  Introduce a level to the "collecting" skill.  It only makes sense...

Agreed and QFE. Always wondered why it didnt have a skill level associated with collecting.

[Windowlicker]

Level locking wont' hurt tradeskillers.You can level lock the area's so they require an adventure level of ___ or a tradeskill level of ____.Problem solved.  The only people unhappy about this are likely people that are the sort we're trying to keep out.

[Jhanos]

Jehannum wrote:

Jhanos wrote:

Summary of best ideas in thread so far:

 Lvl based shiny gathering (since gathering is capped by highest adventer or crafter lvl this would not harm either side)

 Lvl based access based on highest crafting or adv level (again this would allow the crafters to get in)

Banhammer massacre of the cheaters (I highly endorse this one, but cheaters and plat sellers are like cockroaches, very hard to get them all)

1. Stipulations on level based collecting ability: must be 'free' and acquire 5 points at the start of any given level.  must permit toons within 2-3 tiers of an area to harvest, and allow all 'larger' toons free rein.  Otherwise it unduly punishes legitimate players.  Realistically, if it can be implemented, this is the only reasonable solution I've seen in this thread.

2. Stipulations on level-based access to zone: must be granted to T8 zones as of level 50.  Non-cap zones appear not to be an issue, or we'd see similar problems cropping up in Faydwer.  I just don't like this solution in the first place, tending as it does to resemble the annoying access quests we used to have to endure for the T3-5 zones.

3. Idealism, thy name is (apparently) Jhanos.  " width="15" height="15" />  Any such ban is bound to take down a number of legit users, and tie up resources dealing with people who'll ultimately cancel their accounts and drive their friends to do the same.  Bet that if Sony hasn't already done this, they have what they consider a pretty good reason for it.  Odds are, the negative repercussions (and yes, that probably does include loss of the 'illegitimate' account subscriptions) are estimated to be greater than any potential gains.  If they can figure out a way to do it without affecting the legit subscriptions, this will be the best path - but as I say, I consider the fact they haven't yet done it to be evidence that they don't currently believe they can.

I said I'd like to see them banned, then I said they are like cockroaches, I.E. if they could have, they would have.  So not a idealist at all.  Thanks for the dripping sarcasm though, grab a towl and mop it up.

[Josgar]

How about we don't become elitest jerks and level lock zones. Everyone should be able to go wherever they want to if they have bought the expansion and they have done any necisarry quests if that zone has an access quest. If your pc gets bad performance turn your graphics down or suggest that kunark makes more instances of itself with less people. OR suggest that the server become more stable. Level Locking zones, although one owuld think there is no "legit" reason to go to higher level zones at low levels, should not be permitted.

Anyone should be entitled to shines. If someone wants to level that way, so be it. Let them risk their lives trying ot harvest shinies in red agressive monsters.

Someone wants to admire scenery? Let em.

Someone wants to walk across all of kunark without a sokakor since they are not a high enough level, then they can do that.

The few people you cut out of a zone most likely would not up your performance that much anyways.

Do level 68 +'s  need access to Greater Faydark? Theres housing in Qeynos, and brokers all over the place... all city amenities can be found other places. Maybe all level 68 +'s should be forced to move to Teren's Grasp. (don't bother pointing out this failed paragraph in your response.) 

[Dragon]

I see no reason for a level 2 adveturer and level 80 crafter to enter KC, Chardok, Sebilis, or any of the other high level dungeons in the game.  If there are any crafting nodes (forges, work tables, looms, etc.) in said places, you need to be of the appropriate level or higher in order to get to that crafting node.  Any other way would be exploiting or hacking the game... that's it.If it is a high level crafting dungeon, where there are no mobs what-so-ever (which doesn't exist that I'm aware of), then add in a level requirement for that based on crafting level.I don't think most people are opposed to the idea of having level 2s running around in mob infested areas like Kylong, Fens, etc. where crafters are required to go (but even so, they need the faction for those in the first place... which has to be gotten through adventuring quests anyway).  Either way you look at it, there is no reason why a level 2 adveturer should be allowed to zone into a level 80 raid or group dungeon.... there is just no point besides hacking or exploiting.

[TaleraRis]

Dragonae@Unrest wrote:

I don't think most people are opposed to the idea of having level 2s running around in mob infested areas like Kylong, Fens, etc. where crafters are required to go (but even so, they need the faction for those in the first place... which has to be gotten through adventuring quests anyway). 

Crafters are NOT required to gain their faction through any sort of adventuring. There is crafter sokokar quest and a line of non-adventuring quests that gives non-KOS status with Bathezid, Riliss and Danak that involves only making your way through the zones. The crafter sokokar quest involves making your way through the zones and doing some crafting. Crafters never have to touch adventuring to gain the faction they need. And I'm in the camp with not limiting exploration. If someone wants to go see the new zone, they should be able to go see the new zone. I think the idea with the most merit is the level-based collecting, but I have some concerns with that. Harvesting having a required level works because that must be skilled up and it is possible for anyone of any adventure level to skill their harvesting up. The collectibles would likewise need some sort of skilling up process, rather than just being level locked, because it violates the concept that is currently present, the concept that if you can survive there, you can gather things there.

[TaleraRis]

A friend of mine just posited a likely solution to the shiny dilemma. He thinks it should be based on gathering. I'd say this is a fair resolution, since facets of new quests have quest items collected using just the gathering skill, and there are more than enough node opportunities to skill it up. Plus it doesn't leave out low levels who can harvest shinies now from being able to do so in the future, if they worked their gathering up, like a strictly level-limited solution would.Of course this still leaves the problem of someone who isn't a high level adventurer or a high level tradeskiller being left out, since max gathering is determined by level, so perhaps a shiny collecting skill would still be needed. That still leaves the issue of how to skill it up, though.

[Gholdmoon]

I have tons of low level adv but high level crafters. My crafters DO NOT need to go into KC, Seb, ETC. Putting a level restriction on these DUNGEONS would not hurt any legitimate player. Ive been in KC. I cannot go any further than the spot i zone into because mobs would kill me, high level or low level. Really it doesnt matter if a dungeon like KC had a level restriction on it like Shard of Fear once had (or still does) ive heard rumors it was changed.

People were not clear earlier in the post that they want the dungeons to be level restricted not all of RoK. Sure you can go to KP, Fens, JW, KJ, etc etc free and clear to run around harvest nodes get shinies, but they want to keep the low level speed hackers out of the dungeons. I dont see a problem with this at all.

To be clear. You have to have a crafting lvl of at least lvl 70 to do the tradeskill quests starting on the dock with the  assistant to work faction to not be kos.  You can legitimately run a low level through KP, JW, Fens, etc etc. You just have to be patient, watch mob movements, and be ready to run if you get aggro. You would be amazed at how well many people do this (even me with a runspeed of 16% on newb swash).

Anyway, any changes they put in this game can be reversed. So if people want a Level restriction on dungeons in RoK , fine put them on until SoE can figure out a way to catch the speed hackers. I heard they use a outside program that may be hard to track/catch. But you know how people are with their theories =) never know what is true. It can be a temporary solution until a permanent one can be put in.

[Thormiel]

This discussion reminds of the discussion last summer about how to combat in-game spam. I remember some people advocating that low level players should not be allowed to send tells to high level players.