Lack of tanks starting to disturb anyone?

[Daghammerskold]

I like tanking, even for pick-up groups. Instances are fun. I especially love that I don't feel any pressure to min/max or have great gear.I raid with my main (conj) and I try to make him uber as possible. I see that there are more grps LF tank than tank LFG so I am bringing my 73 guard up in my spare time. I'm not going to waste any money on tank masters or buying any thing more than mastercrafted gear. I might try to get him the guard epic but then again maybe not. I don't feel the need to do every major quest line with every toon I roll...too much bother.I know that the DPSers are almost alway going to be better equipped than my tank (but probably not better than my DPS toon) and they are probably going to have to tone it down to avoid pulling agro. But hey, if they don't like it they can always find another tank, right? Ha!On the Combat Discussion board there is a thread about Treasured etc tanks. My goal for my tank is to be legendary level, no more. If you want to have fun, you'll enjoy the groups I tank for. My guild already has its raid tanks and I have no desire to be one. RoK has great quest and dropped gear. I intend to enjoy myself getting it.

[interstellarmatter]

They need to have a screw up meter that runs during an encounter.   Whoever screws up the most gets a dunce cap put on them after the fight.  That would help ease placing all the blame on the tank.

[Aull]

Kellin wrote:

I play a mystic.  When grouping, if a dps class pulls agro off the tank, they'd better find some way to ditch it, because they aren't my first priority.  Too much agro on someone who isn't the tank = a trip to the mender, because I don't give a ratonga's tail about your dps.  I care about getting through an encounter alive, and the tank is much more key to that than the overnuking warlock.

If the dps is getting all snotty about it, they can go do their dps on their own.  Grouping is about working together, and agro management is everyone's job.  Anyone who doesn't agree needs to go back to soloing, because you'll get no sympathy from me.

Once people start figuring that out, you'll see more people going back to tanking.

Don't get me wrong, I play with several folks who are foaming-at-the-mouth maniacal about blowing things up indiscriminately (one of them, funnily enough, usually plays a tank), but they're well aware that any deaths they accrue are their own [I cannot control my vocabulary] fault.

This is an absolute wonderful post that should be read by all players new and old. I agree totally with you Kellin and very good work here!

[Kizee]

Aull wrote:

Kellin wrote:

I play a mystic.  When grouping, if a dps class pulls agro off the tank, they'd better find some way to ditch it, because they aren't my first priority.  Too much agro on someone who isn't the tank = a trip to the mender, because I don't give a ratonga's tail about your dps.  I care about getting through an encounter alive, and the tank is much more key to that than the overnuking warlock.

If the dps is getting all snotty about it, they can go do their dps on their own.  Grouping is about working together, and agro management is everyone's job.  Anyone who doesn't agree needs to go back to soloing, because you'll get no sympathy from me.

Once people start figuring that out, you'll see more people going back to tanking.

Don't get me wrong, I play with several folks who are foaming-at-the-mouth maniacal about blowing things up indiscriminately (one of them, funnily enough, usually plays a tank), but they're well aware that any deaths they accrue are their own [I cannot control my vocabulary] fault.

This is an absolute wonderful post that should be read by all players new and old. I agree totally with you Kellin and very good work here!

I always tell the group that if you pull agro then it costs less power to rez you than heal you. After a few deaths they stop pulling agro.

[Drewx]

Honestly there are tons of reasons why not many want to tank, Tanks to some extent play a bit of almost eery role, they pull, defend, lead, have to keep an eye out for adds and if no CC is there...control the adds, and lastly they have to hold aggro...but thats a given. Add in the cost fo keeping thir armor and weapons as up to date as possible...it's costly an stressful. I'm probably repeating alot of what has been said but...oh well...I didn't feel like reading every page...

Most of these are my own personal views... 

Main Reasons:1. Perfectionists: People who expect you to be perfect from the very start, even if it is your first time in the zone. They expect you to hold aggro 100% of the time, and get mad if you make 1 bad pull or lose aggro for a second. They expect the impossible.

2. The Blame Game: Whenever something goes wrong...only about 10% of the time do others take the blame. The tank and healers are always strung up first.

3. The Ignorant: This is definately the biggest one I shoulda...made it number 1...Basically this is all the scouts, and casters who unfortunately think the dps is the name of the game. They don't focus on Crowd Control or support...they just open up with a payload and wonder why the tank can't keep them alive.[3.a] Community:Seriously this community has developed some serious issues since the game started. It's fileld with stereotypes and elitists. YES...some of what is said is indeed true, and YES not everyone is a good tank/healer/dps/cc. But Overgeneralization rules.Shadowknights for example seem to be stereotyped as the worse class...they aren't wanted to MT, dps, support, only solo. This is wrong and many SKs do state that SKs can do all the above...but the community has a whoel seems to have this ideal of: "SKs suck until proven otherwise."The Community has grown to believe that dps rules all, that when you see am ob it is to be burned down as fast as possible...battles that surpass a minute are unacceptable if not an epic or heroic encounter.

4. Newbie Cruelty:After reading all the above...put yourself in the hoes of a new player? What if this was your first MMO? I witness so many new players getting berated and insulted for simply being new.How do you think new tanks feel? They are just learning the class yet they are looked on with scorn and spat upon.New healers undergo the same cruelty.Only Scouts, and Mages seem to be left alone.

That's my view on things...it's probably flawed in some aspects but meh.

[Aidyn]

Kizee@Befallen wrote:

Aull wrote:

Kellin wrote:

I play a mystic.  When grouping, if a dps class pulls agro off the tank, they'd better find some way to ditch it, because they aren't my first priority.  Too much agro on someone who isn't the tank = a trip to the mender, because I don't give a ratonga's tail about your dps.  I care about getting through an encounter alive, and the tank is much more key to that than the overnuking warlock.

If the dps is getting all snotty about it, they can go do their dps on their own.  Grouping is about working together, and agro management is everyone's job.  Anyone who doesn't agree needs to go back to soloing, because you'll get no sympathy from me.

Once people start figuring that out, you'll see more people going back to tanking.

Don't get me wrong, I play with several folks who are foaming-at-the-mouth maniacal about blowing things up indiscriminately (one of them, funnily enough, usually plays a tank), but they're well aware that any deaths they accrue are their own [I cannot control my vocabulary] fault.

This is an absolute wonderful post that should be read by all players new and old. I agree totally with you Kellin and very good work here!

I always tell the group that if you pull agro then it costs less power to rez you than heal you. After a few deaths they stop pulling agro.

Absolutely!! I made a post on our guild website that as Healer Officer in our guild I did not want any Healers keeping the 'squishies' alive on a raid if it meant they were not healing the MT

I didnt win any awards with the "squishies" in my guild but we had a MT that stayed alive a lot longer which meant our raid force stayed alive too

As for the original topic of this thread - I agree that tanks are scarce for all the reasons stated previously.  What can we do about it?? Can we nominate a "Be nice to a Tank Day"??

[Ravaan]

Aidyn@Crushbone wrote:

Kizee@Befallen wrote:

Aull wrote:

Kellin wrote:

I play a mystic.  When grouping, if a dps class pulls agro off the tank, they'd better find some way to ditch it, because they aren't my first priority.  Too much agro on someone who isn't the tank = a trip to the mender, because I don't give a ratonga's tail about your dps.  I care about getting through an encounter alive, and the tank is much more key to that than the overnuking warlock.

If the dps is getting all snotty about it, they can go do their dps on their own.  Grouping is about working together, and agro management is everyone's job.  Anyone who doesn't agree needs to go back to soloing, because you'll get no sympathy from me.

Once people start figuring that out, you'll see more people going back to tanking.

Don't get me wrong, I play with several folks who are foaming-at-the-mouth maniacal about blowing things up indiscriminately (one of them, funnily enough, usually plays a tank), but they're well aware that any deaths they accrue are their own [I cannot control my vocabulary] fault.

This is an absolute wonderful post that should be read by all players new and old. I agree totally with you Kellin and very good work here!

I always tell the group that if you pull agro then it costs less power to rez you than heal you. After a few deaths they stop pulling agro.

Absolutely!! I made a post on our guild website that as Healer Officer in our guild I did not want any Healers keeping the 'squishies' alive on a raid if it meant they were not healing the MT

I didnt win any awards with the "squishies" in my guild but we had a MT that stayed alive a lot longer which meant our raid force stayed alive too

As for the original topic of this thread - I agree that tanks are scarce for all the reasons stated previously.  What can we do about it?? Can we nominate a "Be nice to a Tank Day"??

personally i think a good start would give fighters more "utility" so they can make it on raids even if they are not the MT or OT. Maybe give them more skills that they can "switch" to if they aren't the MT of a group. 2 different sets of self buffs or something.

one of the big reasons people don't play tanks is not only the mistreatment of them but because the is little reward at the endgame for them unless of course they are the MT or OT or unless they are in a guild that really doesn't care. Most guilds i see that are successful care 2 tanks (usually 2 guards) on a raid ... and thats it maybe sometimes a monk.

look at how many tanks on this post said they have retired thier tank because they can't get a spot on a raid. that they have had to reroll because of this. I know I am one of them heck for the longest time i kept my healer hidden because i wanted my then shadowknight (now paladin) to be taken on raids. you know what happens? sorry Rav we already have enough fighters on the raid.

I got sick of it and had them invite my healer, and now all i hear is, hey rav want to raid? *hopes up for the pally* "because we could really use your inquisitor".

I think they either need to make more raid wide buffs for tanks and better raid wide buffs or design raids so that more fighters are required to be successful.

[Qandor]

I probably have an odd ball opinion, but I really do think that wide spread use of parsers have led us here. It's no longer that we are just here to beat this instance or get to this name. It's all about the parse on the way there and everyone trying to outdo each other. Everyone is looking for a "quick" run through . That's puts added pressure on the tank as well. Not only is he expected to be flawless but quick as well. It is just not worth it to tank anymore and I have also retired my 80 SK and 80 Zerker. They were actually retired at 70 but did the solo schtick to 80 just for old times sake. Compounding the problem is my age, my reactions are just not what they used to be. So now i play mostly casters and do my best to watch agro and not cause the guy up front any more difficulty if I can help it. Yes, it probably costs me a few points on the almighty parse, but frankly I could care less. We are there for a purpose, not to fan our egos.  

[pandemonium73]

bleap wrote:

I have been saying this for over a year now...the lack of tanks and also healers is killing our ability to make PuGs. Healers are boring...almost to the point of tears to play....heal heal cure heal heal cure....maybe a rez thrown in once in a while....EQ1 went through a phase like this and SOE revamped healers abilities and more people started playing them...maybe it's time for healers, especially chain and plate healers to have their melee skills increased with some other abilities thrown in to make them fun to play...Tanks are a rare spawn too...I don't know if it's because it's all hack slash and taunt or because people don't want to put the work into them...either way there are less and less...I cant tell you how many failed groups I have had in the past year because we couldn't find one or the other...

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If you find healing boring, don't play a healer, but personally I think that those who think healing is boring should try harder content and solo heal it.  I think the real reason that people don't play healers (or tanks) as much, is because they are among the most demanding roles in game.  And no, I do not simply play whack-a-mole with heal bars, tho yes that can be part of the package, but in those situations just tell the tank to pull more, and snap, you have more of a challenge. When I'm solo healing challenging content I'm constantly having to make decisions about what heals and cures are best for each situation (yes we have lots to choose from, and other than our main staple heals and cures they are often situational). I absolutely need to know the cast times on ALL my heals, cures, and rezzes, so I can estimate which ones I can reasonably get off in each situation-- Timing is EVERYTHING. When time is really tight, I need to pay attention to which conditions must be cured NOW, and which I can let slide so I can land some crucial heals instead.  I must decide when to heal and/or rez agro grabbing dps and when I need to just let 'em lie and keep the tank up, and if I choose wrong and the tank goes down, it can mean a total wipe (luckily if there is a rezzing class in group worth their salt and they're not the ones down or the MT, THEY do the rezzing... which does give me more breathing room). I need to keep my one debuff up, and make sure I always have enough mana for an add or two if adds are at all likely. 

And to top off all the quick decisions I make with every fight, I gotta be FAST on the clicky and the tappety tap man-- no slow movers should apply. In fact, in most good groups, I don't even have the option of looking away from my screen-- it only takes a few seconds for a group mate to die if they catch agro and I'm not looking and immediately ready to heal. When the MT and/or puller are really on fire, and I'm not in Vent or TS, I barely have the time to type that I need a second after the next fight to grab a coke or itch my nose or answer the door, because the pulls are nonstop and therefore so are the heals, leaving me no time to type.

But despite all this (and I know tanking is just as difficult a job—I have nothing but admiration for all the great tanks I know, cuz I couldn't do it) we get the same kind of flak for every bad situation that tanks do.  Are there bad healers and tanks? Sure, they can often be easy classes to play, but difficult to master. But I've seen groups talk smack to the healer and/or the tank even after they have proven themselves again and again---then as soon as a bad situation arises, bam suddenly they are Noob idiots who don't know their class. [I cannot control my vocabulary]? Wait a second buddy, who the hell got you thru add after add to get you this deep in the instance to even have a chance to die to tha named?

There is nothing more annoying than being [I cannot control my vocabulary] at for a death, or a wipe and you know those complaining don't have a clue about how frantically your fingers were flying trying to keep their precious behinds alive, or notice that you succeeded for a miraculously long time before finally succumbing. I’m sure tanks feel the same way when they get crap when they’ve been working hard and doing a good a job.

Finally, when the glory IS passed around (at least in pugs), very little of it goes to the healer. When I’m solo healing there is no one to compare my parse to, and folks rarely marvel over my heal parse.  Dps pats itself on the back plenty, and the puller and/or tank get at least one “good job” per dungeon crawl, but if I get any glory it’s when the group as a whole pats itself on the back for a good job.  Occasionally the rare enlightened soul will give me a “great heals” when I pull off a miracle, but I mean I gotta pull off a miracle to get that from a stranger.

Lucky for me the situation is better in a good guild and I’ve been lucky to know good guilds and good people, so I rarely pug.  Good players that know me recognize me as a good healer (and thanks gods they also recognize I’m a human being and allow me the occasional mistake the same as I allow them). Guild groups are less likely to point fingers after deaths/wipes, unless it is well deserved, and are more likely to give praise after good fights, and if one’s guild groups are different, I’d say one is in the wrong guild.

So you want to know where the good tanks and healers are, and the tanks and healers in general? They’re in the good guilds that actually appreciate them-- and that’s who they group with.

(Personally, I don't know how dps doesn't fall asleep in groups mashing the same few buttons over and over-- the only hard decisions they have to make is how long to wait until the tank has established agro and occasionally “hmm, maybe I’ll forgo that one big nuke for now” and they must somehow find the courage to freakin’ stand still when they catch agro instead of running around like chickens with their heads cut off so the tank can actually have a chance to re-establish agro and the healer can have a chance to heal them.—Heh see how it feels to have someone disparage YOUR contribution? Feels like a vast over-simplification of what YOU do, doesn’t it?) (BTW this paragraph is just for rhetorical effect, frankly I admire many of the dps classes, because I could never master the positioning they must do).

Anyway, finally had to get that off my chest… don’t wanna preach, but when people act like what I’m doing is just being a mindless heal bot when I’m working way harder than they can imagine, it kind of ticks me off. 

[Shackleton1]

I have a guardian stuck in the 50s. I perceive several problems with him which are annoying.

1) Lack of solo ability, combined with how tough it is to get groups outside T8

2) Cost. Every tier, he needs a full new set of armour, and he needs it right off the bat. Basically mastercrafted or better. Every tier, he needs to buy adept 3 taunts, and he needs to do it right off the bat. The monetary cost is quite crippling, and combined with inability to solo and not being good enough for groups blah blah. It's annoying.

3) And on a sidenote, a way to see agro would be nice. I don't have too much agro problems really, but I really don't like the lack of information on hate generated.

[Of_mice_and_men]

I think you're right.  There is a wall you hit around the early 50's where groups are really needed to power through to the good late 50's / early 60's content.  It's doable solo but it is tedious and often you see people give up at this point and re-roll which I think is a shame given how much stuff there is to do just around the corner.

My solution to the armour problem was to level armoursmith a whole teir above my adventure level.  It's made easy by me having a few 70+ characters obviously but it solved my armour problem with a bit of tradeskilling investment.  It has also made me money so I can't complain.

I play a healer as my primary class and find it far from dull.  It's far too busy sometimes and grouping can be edge of the seat stuff.  Playing my ranger on the other hand is a social event lol

[Dorkbomb]

I played the MT for my WoW guild for almost two years and got extremely burnt out. 

Like people have mentioned, you have to be on point every second of every fight. Then there is the constant repair costs. The gear dependence. I also couldn't log on for 5 minutes without getting tells to go tank some instance somewhere for guildies. Which, naturally, you do. They're guildies. But it makes it a pain sometimes if you want to do something else.

Then theirs the weird banana measuring between 2 tanks in a pug to decide which one will tank. I remember often being the MT in a pug and having to just step back when the OT did everything in his power to pull aggro off me or take over the roll. I am not ego driven, so I don't worry if I am MT or OT. But a lot of tanks out there just cannot stand taking a backseat to another tank. It's a weird vibe.

I never really minded the weird whining from DPS that pulled aggro off me. They usually died and I usually laughed if they got bent. I mean, we're all supposed to know our roles, right? Learn some aggro management and your repair bills won't keep you broke. They could say I was a bad tank all day, but if they're the only one in the group consistently tasting the floor, who has the problem?

What DID bother me was people who don't listen. Like I said, I am not ego driven, but if I am tanking, I am the leader of that pug. If I say "Stay here" you need to stay there. If I say "Hold the nukes until I say" that's what you should do. But some people have a real tough time following very simple instructions. Especially from a stranger. Especially folks worried about the parse/damage meters. It's like they're standing there doing the peepee dance because they hafta hold their DPS for an extra couple seconds.

But yeah, it's just a very involved roll. With very little reward for all you have to put into it. Not to say it isn't rewarding. I mean, being the MT involved in guild firsts is an amzing feeling. When you just MTed something very difficult for the first time you have a very satisfying sense of accomplishment and feel like a badaspirin. But those times are fairly rare and are spread far apart with a whole lot of tedium in between.

I got burned out. I think a lot of tanks do. I play primarily DPS classes nowadays. Because the difference between the two rolls is night and day. I feel like I am in cruise control when I play a DPS class. If I slip up, what happens? I can fall asleep through half a fight and won't be missed 9 times out of 10.

[Path]

azekah wrote:

NiteWolfe wrote:

 If you cant find a tank class take a swashy or a brigand they tank very well. As a swashy i have tanked every heroic zone in rok and eof with no issues. Agro control via DPS ftw!

Roger that, brigs have excellent aggro control abilities along with their dps...

Sure... they have great aggro control abilities.Problem there is. 95% of the don't know the word CONTROL lol.Oh look-it me... I can't take aggro from the tank, uuuuber... wait [Removed for Content] I DIED?! and then they whine and complain to the tank why they died.  (I tend to rofl at it) Control mean to take a little, and give it back... greedy in an raid/instance situation gets you killed.

[Kain-UK]

I very, very rarely tank in a pickup group now, and I hate tanking for people who I don't know.

Why? Because i've had too many idiots yell at me when they start throwing around high-powered CA's or spells right off the bat. People, i'm a Berserker. I'm WIS specced to get rid of the penalties of my stances, STA specced to get more damage in and STR specced for the melee crits. I have a grand total of 2 taunts, Insolence/Insolent Gibe and a melee attack that adds threat. All of my aggro management comes from DPS. If the mob isn't on me, i'll have a hell of a time getting it back because of the fact I rely heavily on my DPS and being hit to generate hate (Buckler Reversal and another buff I can't remember... but both proc damage).

It would be nice if more people realised that tanking is hard. I've had people yell at me "TAUNT!" and my response has always been "I've used my two taunts, stop DPS'ing and maybe i'll actually get aggro back, or you can die. Pick one." It seems to me that people assume a tank can hold aggro just through taunting, but they don't realise that different tanks have different methods of holding aggro. I know SK's have a DOT taunt, Zerkers use DPS, I think Brawlers and Monks use DPS too... and I think they have a hate leech, not sure on that. Pallies have a hate leech and Guardians have so much stuff that add's threat it's not even funny.

A "be nice to tanks day" would rock... otherwise i'll just stick with grouping up with guildies and friends. I've currently got an SK, 2 wardens and a Conjy in tow... and we tear through stuff. It's nice.

[Levatino]

NiteWolfe wrote:

 If you cant find a tank class take a swashy or a brigand they tank very well. As a swashy i have tanked every heroic zone in rok and eof with no issues. Agro control via DPS ftw!

am i the only one who thinks this ain't ok..  I mean can't find a tank aka can't find a guardian so we take a swashy or a brigand instead of a zerker, SK, Paladin or god forbid a monk or bruiser..On topic, I think the shortage on tanks is more a result of the guilds policy that tanks aren't needed in raids, only one MT and perhaps an OT. so what do you do if you create an alt? Create a warrior or go for the dps classes...Solution? Make it so that more tanks are needed in raids..

[phoenixshard]

Not everyone is interested in actually raiding though, making it so that tanks are more wanted there will not solve the problem of groups looking for tanks. From what I've read in this thread from people who tank, it seems that the issue is lack of cohesion as a group in PUG and insulting the tank if something happens.

[azekah]

Path@Vox wrote:

azekah wrote:

NiteWolfe wrote:

 If you cant find a tank class take a swashy or a brigand they tank very well. As a swashy i have tanked every heroic zone in rok and eof with no issues. Agro control via DPS ftw!

Roger that, brigs have excellent aggro control abilities along with their dps...

Sure... they have great aggro control abilities.Problem there is. 95% of the don't know the word CONTROL lol.Oh look-it me... I can't take aggro from the tank, uuuuber... wait [I cannot control my vocabulary] I DIED?! and then they whine and complain to the tank why they died.  (I tend to rofl at it) " />Control mean to take a little, and give it back... greedy in an raid/instance situation gets you killed.

Also have 3 deaggro spells and 1 deaggro buff...if a brig can't deaggro then he's an idiot...

[Levatino]

phoenixshard wrote:

Not everyone is interested in actually raiding though, making it so that tanks are more wanted there will not solve the problem of groups looking for tanks. From what I've read in this thread from people who tank, it seems that the issue is lack of cohesion as a group in PUG and insulting the tank if something happens.

all of that is true, but still i think I have a valid point. People creating an alt will first create a char that will be needed in end game rather then a char who will rot then..Btw about the insulting, i don't think that's only tank or healer related but more the attitude of some people. It seems nowadays more and more people are egocentric and less social minded. Me myself and I are the three persons who are the most important.edit: spelling mistake

[phoenixshard]

One person's idea of rot is another person's idea of just running around and still doing things or just mentoring. Not everyone is interested in raiding in the end. I could agree with that last statement too to a certain extent, its amazing what the anonymity of the Internet does for some people and lets their true self emerge.

[azekah]

Anyone who has grouped should be able to understand the anonymity some people feel towards tanks when they lose aggro.

 Some people have NO IDEA what their doing when they are attempting to a play a tank. There should be a warning in the character creation screen for players to only play a tank if they have a fairly good knowledge of how this game works and if they are willing to put in the effort to be a good tank, and NEVER to join a group as MT when they are not ready and able to, such as having a good set of gear and upgraded spells, not half asleep and etc…

 The tank is the most important person in the group. I’m sure most will agree, almost every good group you’ve been in is when you have a good tank, and most crapy groups are when you have an ignorant, lazy, slow, or poorly geared tank. Of course there are exceptions, but it’s a pretty good measuring stick.

 I’ve been in groups where the tank didn’t even know what a taunt was. Heck, the first character I created was a zerker. I had no idea [Removed for Content] I was doing when I first played (my first MMO), and I’m sure I made a few lousy groups when I first started.

 Tanks are a HARD class. Not necessarily because of how the class works, but because of the pressure you have, and what your expected to know and do, and rightly so. As a tank you should be the leader of your group. Whenever someone else is leading the group your just asking for trouble.

 With my zerker, I would often wait until I had gone through zones on higher alts so that when I did get there, I knew what I was doing, when to pull, where adds were and such. The more your tank knows, the more likely your group will fair well.

 I don’t mean to demean the role of other group members, of course every member plays it’s part. The healer must heal, and the dps must dps or you will run out of hp/power and then wipe. But, usually you can have half decent healers/dps and still make it through a zone ok. A half decent tank is a not a tank worth grouping with.

[Quda]

Ok, wanting to put in my 2 cents.

My problem with my tank, is the gear!  Having to spend loads of plat, or carry 2 healers with each group, just to get some decent gear.  And then what is it worth???  Nothing!!!!

Example:Our Raid MT, fully fabled, with the best plate gear instances, T1 and T2 raid zones can offer.  Doing a chardok group (in deep) for people to get their updates.  Single healer(fury) was having to spam heals to keep the tank alive, and before you say it, the healer is with her weight in gold, one of the best.

So where does that leave a tank who has just ok gear????  Heroic after Heroic hitting for 4-6k each swing.

The gear is too weak, and the mobs are hitting to hard for a casual tank.

[phoenixshard]

The problem with what you are saying though is that no matter how good the tank is, if you have the heavy hitting DPS'ers starting off big with their most damaging spells/CA's then you're going to lose aggro, and it can take a lot to get it back. That is what the major complaint seems to be with what the tanks who have posted in this thread have been saying. I have limited experience with tanking myself, but do know how to run DPS'ers very well, that is what the majority of my classes are and I found out the hard way, hitting with your major backstab/nuke is going to bring the mob down on you hard and it can be tough for the tank to drag the mob that has suddenly decided it wants to use you for a pinata off of you. Doing something that stupid isn't on the tank, its on the DPS.

[Aull]

Choombatta wrote:

My motto is and always will be : "If you pull it, you tank it!".

I am amazed how quickly the wizards,furies, ect. stop running around like chickens with their head cut off when they realize you are not going to taunt that mob off of them, that they pulled because they just had to look around the corner of the next room.

As for the casters and scouts that like to use their highest damage hits right out of the gate.....again, I wait to start taunting off of them until they either stop casting, or die. Again, I am amazed at how quickly they stop doing those things once they take a death or 2 and you explain to them why they are dying so much.

If they try to lay the blame on me, as a tank, after doing these things, I just tell them they are more then welcome to find another tank, and next time they are begging for a PU tank to help them, do not even bother asking me.

Thankfully, this does not happen often at all to me, but when it does, it really does make you question why you try to help strangers.

I guess I some how over looked this post and find here some very well stated comments to be exact trueths. I was recently given the priviledge to be in a Chaos raid with my bruiser and Choombatta was the MT. I must say that raid had the best disiplined players that I have raided with  and I really appreciate your guild allowing me in on that raid Choombatta. It was a great raid and wish all raids that I have been on in times past (with other guilds) had that kind of focus. Brilliant tanking my friend and you have some great support with you in your guild.

The reason I feel so strongly about his post is that it should be practiced by all who are tanks and the support needs to learn their places and more so timing. So much can be accomplished by a raid force if everyone knows their jobs and listening to the commands of the raid leadership members.

Nothing is worse than trying to tank any content in this game with an egotistical mage/scout nuking or making high damage attacks before the MT makes any move. This isn't as big a problem in everyday norrath content since most mages/scouts can survive the attacks but if it is practiced at that lvl it will for sure leak over into the raid scene where they will not be so lucky.

So if any of you tanks are seeing arrows fly over your head, lightening bolts, or daggers while you are about to taunt a mob just do what Choombatta says "if you pull it, you tank it" method. After some time (if they get close to dieing or they do die) they should get the idea if you don't try and save them.

Thanks.

[Oisin]

I think the biggest problem is just what everyone here is saying.  DPS classes have absolutely no aggro management.  I'm really not sure how that happened here.  In EQ1 that would get you booted from a group very quickly.  Who gets the blame then?  Only the tanks and healers in most situations.  My main is a fury, and I have spent very little time soloing.  So, I know how to heal, and play in a group setting.  Still, I get yelled at in pug's all the time for crap that even a [Removed for Content] chimp could see wasn't my fault.  Tanks put up with this constantly too.  I would love to switch to my dirge full time, but my friends and guildies really wouldn't like that.  So, I think the lack of tanks stems from group members blaming them instead of taking responsibility.

[Araxes]

Antonia Bayle has an overflow of tanks.Not that skilled ones are any easier to come by, but my guild has actually stopped recruiting fighter classes for the end-game./shrug

[Drewx]

The biggest issue with this is not only the extreme pressure tanks undergo...so far everynoe has stated and honestly not to demean any other classes but in terms of importance:1. Tank2. Healer3. Crowd Control (When Available)4. DPS (Melee, Ranged, or Cast)

Tanks as stated: Hold Aggro, get the biggest beatings, pull, grab adds, and normally DIE for the group.Thats alot of pressure and to be honest the game eases you into it. Even I admit...if you are level 50...you should know how tanking works by then.Someone stated earlier about needing new gear every tier...this is yet another tank problem. Basically every tier we must invest in mastercraft till we get the "good stuff" via legendary or fable. Then the second we get our new taunts...we have to make a beeline to the Broker for Adept III...and considering my last taunt cost me 7 plat...it's hard to look forward too. Add in Adept III Stances and well our bills get high.Healers ALSO undego the same stress...Healers seem to be expected to have all their current Heals at Adept III status, and are loved if they have Buffs at Adept III as well. That's not cheap!

The other big issues...and I hear this alot from new tanks...they have Adept III or Master I or II taunts yet can't hold aggro, and they never understand why.I often say it's dps.

Just the other night I actually got a group!!! (There is hope for SKs) Anyways...in it one player ironically the HEALER said: "1 sec let me set-up a parser...." I immediately said..."If you run a parser I'm leaving."Parsers should be called "Contests" if you ask me cause all it does is toss [Removed for Content] into the fan and dps forget about aggro, they forget about the group...they are out to prove they are top dog of dps. Hell I've been in groups when some dps make it a contest not only to top the parser but to peel off the tank!!!Then they get mad when they die. Normally when parser's go into effect. I boldly state..."If you peel off me you will die cause I won't waste my energy fighting you for aggro. Peel and you'll be the top dog in hell."Another big issue...is sometimes it isn't the tank who doesn't know how to the play...it is the DPS!!!I have met LOTS and LOTS of DPS who don't bother putting "Deaggro" abilities on their hotbars. In one group a scout asked why I didn't peel off him...I replied with: "Did you try using your deaggro abilities? My taunts do have recasts you know..." His reply: "What is a deaggro?"I had at one time quit my SK and rolled a Swashbuckler and only get praise as him as I never take aggro...mainly due to my deaggro abilities.So I explained to the scout what they are...and he replies with: "Woah...I thought those were dumbfire spells so I can contribute to Heroic Oppertunities." I almost fell out of my chair and for a second withed I could Runious Touch him on the spot.

In another group as my swashie we got an add on the healer...I instantly targeted the add taunted it off the healer...then used Swashie Mez on it. How many swashies reading this know they have a legit MEZ? A few I bet...now how many of you...actually USE it?Swashbucklers are the jack of all trades melee imo. They can taunt, ranged attack, backstab, deaggro, and Crowd Control...but most swashies just dps mindlessly. When I rolled my swashie I remembered what scouts do when I'm a tank and as a result I knew how to perform to keep a group going without making the tank wish and inflict death upon me.[Removed for Content] a SK off enough with petty insults when you open with your strongest dps abilities once a mob is in range just so you can top parser and don't be surprised if they FD on you and seee if you can tank.

Hell now adays I see Swash & Brigs being wanted to tank over TANKING classes?! Why? "We kill faster" *shrug* back in the day when tanks did outstanding dps ontop of their taunts...scouts were [Removed for Content] all overthemselves about not being able to out dps certain tank classes...now everyone is upset about a lack of tanks...and a vast majority believe dps tank better because they have high dps ontop their taunts.|But then when I'm in a group and the brig chooses to take aggro every battle and insult me with a: "You should learn to tank...i can hold aggro better than you ever could." Then I say: "Ok...you be MT...I'll just dps or leave group since I am utterly useless." Then they go all: "uh...no you don't have to do that..." I reply: "Well hell I'll admit...you've had aggro every battle and we're still alive. It would beb etter if we switch roles...that way the healer only has one person to heal...or you can use my slot for another dps...cc...whatever. Choose now before I leave." Long story short...they kept me as DPS...and the brig had to equip a sheild and get to work.

Maybe SOE should move SK, Monk, and Bruiser to Scout and Swashbuckler, Brigand to Fighter?SK's be the only non-stealthing scouts...but they are also the only plate scouts.Brigands and Swashbucklers would be the only Chain Tanks.Monks and Bruisers seem to be biased and forced into scout roles anyways...even though I've seen both MT just as well as evry other tank...the fact they wear leather seems mean they aren't tanks.Seriously...generalization hurts. If it's plate...it must be tank...no other role is possible, if it's chain or lower...it MUST be dps nothing else. If they aren't in legendary then their is no point in having them MT...even if the reason the tank wants to come is to get his legendary armor...oh man the conundrum!!!

I'm done venting.... *faints*

[azekah]

Drewx wrote:

Hell I've been in groups when some dps make it a contest not only to top the parser but to peel off the tank!!!Then they get mad when they die.

I find that slightly hard to believe. If they are playing a peel of the tank game then they should be expected to die. If they said even one word to me (If I was tanking) I would immediately kick them, or leave the group.

[Drewx]

azekah wrote:

Drewx wrote:

Hell I've been in groups when some dps make it a contest not only to top the parser but to peel off the tank!!!Then they get mad when they die.

I find that slightly hard to believe. If they are playing a peel of the tank game then they should be expected to die. If they said even one word to me (If I was tanking) I would immediately kick them, or leave the group.

*Stands up*Not every tank is group leader. And you forget maybe it's just the my server's bias but SKs are expendable so if anyone would get kicked it'd be me. And believe it or not it happens. I just let them die as I stated. I'm positive other tanks have/had and still encounter this as well.

*Faints again...and vents off steam*

[Aull]

azekah wrote:

Drewx wrote:

Hell I've been in groups when some dps make it a contest not only to top the parser but to peel off the tank!!!Then they get mad when they die.

I find that slightly hard to believe. If they are playing a peel of the tank game then they should be expected to die. If they said even one word to me (If I was tanking) I would immediately kick them, or leave the group.

I believe this happens more than it should and the reason it continues is there are some great healers that by nature see someones health going down and do everything they can to keep them alive even if it is the ego dps'ers contesting the tanks ability to hold aggro.

I think before a raid or any content begins the healer should make the statement "if dps continues to rip aggro I will not heal you and rez you after the battle". I feel that should get some people to play their toon with some effort instead of mindlessly trying to impress everyone with their parse!

Also I read about the parses and I agree everything goes out the window when a parse is being used. I advise that a parse should only be used with disiplined players and not your average egomaniac dps'ers.

[pandemonium73]

Aull wrote:

azekah wrote:

Drewx wrote:

Hell I've been in groups when some dps make it a contest not only to top the parser but to peel off the tank!!!Then they get mad when they die.

I find that slightly hard to believe. If they are playing a peel of the tank game then they should be expected to die. If they said even one word to me (If I was tanking) I would immediately kick them, or leave the group.

I believe this happens more than it should and the reason it continues is there are some great healers that by nature see someones health going down and do everything they can to keep them alive even if it is the ego dps'ers contesting the tanks ability to hold aggro.

I think before a raid or any content begins the healer should make the statement "if dps continues to rip aggro I will not heal you and rez you after the battle". I feel that should get some people to play their toon with some effort instead of mindlessly trying to impress everyone with their parse!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I can be accused of the above in yellow. I'm a good healer and can often keep all but the worst dps agro rippers alive, especially if I've got a good tank in group as well, which I almost always do.  It's hard for me NOT to heal, I practically would have to shove my hands in my pockets to purposely let someone die, as watching a bar go in the red makes me twitch.  For me the challenge of keeping the group alive despite a few not so good players in the group is a challenge I can get into, but now that you point out that this keeps them from learning anything about agro management, I might have to deal with the twitches I get when I see someone going down,  and just let errant dpsr's die more often.