Bulk Prov Idea - Reborn

[Cadori Seraphim]

I have been given permission by one of the devs to repost this, as my previous post was unfortunately derailed.What I have done here is taken all of the ideas from the previous thread and put them all together (and separated) so that we may discuss each and hopefully combine or add or come up with a brand new idea that would possibly work!My original idea was to take our current recipes (all of them) and multiply them by 5-8 (5 min for = raws and fuel, 7-8 for more cost so that it would have a down fall to using the recipes) as well as adding the *material* to the recipe. I believe this would not only make a market for the numerous *materials* but be good for the selling provisioners.Here is an example:1 material- normal raws x 5-8- normal fuels x 5-8Output = 3/5/7/10I also suggested no exp gain in my original suggestion. This, however, was not an idea many liked.**************************Building to my idea Rijacki suggested *master crafting* for provisioners using a rare as the catalyst for the recipe. Her examples:-antonican coffee (not sure this exists exactly, but for an example) - -regular recipe, max yield 2-normal common harvests-some amount of fuelperkulated antonican coffee - mastercrafted version, max yield 10 (or even max yield 20)-a rare harvest (like wood or even a pelt -- wood would make the fire -hotter, pelt could be the.. umm.. filter *impish grin*)-normal common harvests for antonican coffee-double normal fuel**************************Kaisha had some good input and it was so in depth that I am pasting her post here:This is something we obviously have been asking for a long time, and the answer from the majority of people is that they don't see a problem and that we would then be able to create in 1 combine something that would last over 50 hours.Sooo .. I'm wondering if not only could the "bulk" combines also require some extra item AND use the proper amount of ingredients, per outcome, but maybe also limit the ability to only the 1-2 hour food/drinks.  And, not the 5 hour drinks.ie:     * T4 Land Shark.  Lasts 2h 15 min  Yeilds 2.    *          Requires: 1 shark fin + 1 wild apple + 1 supple loam + 1 tussah root + 6 fuels.    * The recipe:  High Grade Land Shark.  Lasts 2h 15 min  Yeilds 10.    *     Requires: 1 Glimmering "stuff" + 5 shark fins + 5 wild apples + 5 supple loam + 5 tussah roots + 30 fuels.Heck, even if it required 36 fuels (+6) .. I'd still be tempted to use the recipe when doing stock on my provisioner.Output to stay the same as a regular recipe, though:  fuel / fuel / 5 / 10.   That way you still want to work at getting pristine.I'd stay away from using a "real" rare, unless the item would also be a [house item].  Otherwise, we would just be creating more of the "vendor box" situation.  Where the product is sold for way less than the rare and barely over the fuel cost. Would be a good time for Domino to go through the current set up of Food / Drink timers to switch a few items to 2 hours and even add a couple more, per tier.I'd say standard MC bonus exp is fine.  ----- Actually, as much as I hesitate to give Domino more work, I would LOVE a complete overhaul on the existing Food / Drink Stats & timers.  Remove the No Stat items and add more Alternative Stat items (ie:  STR drink / WIS Food as well as +resists)  And, introduce a line of "Crafter's Choice" No Stat drinks and possibly food that gives bonuses to skill or success.   Bring in more 2 hour drinks/food and give us the option of questing for the High Grade versions.  (add them to the Mastery books.)**************************Terron had some good questions and concerns.. and his suggestion is as follows:It costs the same in fuel to make 2 five hour foods as to make 2 forty minute ones that give no extra bonus, the ingredient costs is insignificant, and it takes the same amount of work.Making stuff for yourself only 5 hours makes sense, but it is a lot more complicated when making stuff for sale, since longer durations mean fewer sales.I would like to see greater numbers created per combine of the shorter duration products, so that the shorter duration items could be sold more cheaply but still for a reasonable profit per combine.For example:Up to 3 items per combine for 3 hour products.Up to 4 items per combine for 2 hour productsup to 10 items per combine for 40 minute products.(Those are all numbers which have already been used for products).So you can produce a tray of cookies at once, but they are not as nourishing individually as a cassorole.Adding the ability to specify a minimum duration when searching, and making the ability to search for a stat on an item work with foods would also be very useful.**************************Lasai had a really cool and unique idea that I think could also be useful to the trade, but as a separate thing altogether, but I wanted to post it here as it does have relevance:I think rare items should be durable.  It would take coding, but I think Provies should make containers, Canteens and Lunchboxes if you will, that fit in the food slot, hold 20 items, and give a % boost on regen and stats.  NOT duration, that would hurt sales lol.  Rare containers for each tier.Imbue materials I think should imbue a recipe with a third stat.  Given the consumable nature of Provisions, I would suggest the ability to imbue a stack of 10 with appropriate fuel costs.  I would not suggest what they did for WS with imbue mats, T8 recipes with t8 fuel costs and minimal duration, too high a cost per duration isn't going to be attractive on any consumable. 

[Meirril]

Out of all of the ideas above, I like Kaisha's idea the best. It leaves room for people to hand craft the 5 hour food/drink and charge more for it so that people that want "just the best" pay more. Or you'll have people running around with 2 hour stacks for bulk rates.

I honestly wouldn't mind if the only bulk recipe drink/food was no-stat. This would give another edge to the people grinding out the regular recipes instead of doing bulk combines. I think I'd be in the minority on this point.

I've got some reservations on the whole lunchbox idea. Food and drink are stated right now with no real bonuses possible. The only things that effect how the food works now is racial abilities. All of the racial abilities are focused on duration. Raising the effectiveness of the food and drink based on a container might lead to food and drink being (in the long term) reduced in effectiveness to compensate for the container's effect.

(IMO halflings eating and drinking less than all the other races makes zero sense. For a race known to enjoy good drink and good food...why do they eat less than gnomes!)

[Jenarie]

Reposting a slightly edited version of what I posted in last thread since it got lost in the arguments and never saw it adressed... 

I think it is a bad idea although if it were to use a rarish (like the imbue material) item I could live with it.I'm skilling up my provisioner at the moment... she's about to hit 66 [now 70].  During the previous tier, I got bored with writs and decided to make some stuff to sell.  I put up a stack each of about 5 different types of food/drink - the good ones 5hr with stats etc.  I made sure to check the broker first and only picked items that were either not on the broker or were on the broker at extremely high prices.  A few sold right away but I'll have the rest for a very long time because someone came along behind me and made several hundred of each item and placed it up at less then I'm willing to sell.  I'd be totally ok with it if someone had come along behind me and placed another stack or three but several hundred to me means most likely botter mass producing.Since botters don't care about xp, I think tying xp or faction to it would be the worst possible downside... since it doesn't at all affect the people who are already mass producing items.  The only way this would work in my opinion is if the stack cost more to make then making it 2 at a time does now.  Botters wouldn't be interested in that but people making food/drink for themselves and friends might feel that the extra was worth the time saved.I'd still prefer it not be changed at all but if it does change really think it needs to be higher cost. 

[Meirril]

Jenarie wrote:

Reposting a slightly edited version of what I posted in last thread since it got lost in the arguments and never saw it adressed... 

I think it is a bad idea although if it were to use a rarish (like the imbue material) item I could live with it.I'm skilling up my provisioner at the moment... she's about to hit 66 [now 70].  During the previous tier, I got bored with writs and decided to make some stuff to sell.  I put up a stack each of about 5 different types of food/drink - the good ones 5hr with stats etc.  I made sure to check the broker first and only picked items that were either not on the broker or were on the broker at extremely high prices.  A few sold right away but I'll have the rest for a very long time because someone came along behind me and made several hundred of each item and placed it up at less then I'm willing to sell.  I'd be totally ok with it if someone had come along behind me and placed another stack or three but several hundred to me means most likely botter mass producing.Since botters don't care about xp, I think tying xp or faction to it would be the worst possible downside... since it doesn't at all affect the people who are already mass producing items.  The only way this would work in my opinion is if the stack cost more to make then making it 2 at a time does now.  Botters wouldn't be interested in that but people making food/drink for themselves and friends might feel that the extra was worth the time saved.I'd still prefer it not be changed at all but if it does change really think it needs to be higher cost. 

Bulk recipes would help fight botters. If real people can fill the demand in less time, botters won't sell as much. Either they'll drop the prices so low that nobody makes any money making food or they'll move on to more proffitable persuits. I think both would happen.

[Oh]

I hate to ask this but seriously what is broke with provisioning? Yes there are a few things i would like revamped for the foods to make them more consistant but really that is trivial. Personally i would rather have a better search engin for all tradeskill folks so that you can search on more then just one word partials and search for a component and have it bring up a list. Heck i miss back in wow when i could link a recipie to someone and they could see the end result and also what components it took so they knew if they had what they needed or not.

I will say yes it is kind of anoying having to mass produce food normally when i do it, i do them in batches of 100 at a time of usually only the 5 hour stuff and usually a mix of stat food and also no stat food. Generally thou the no stat food ends up selling for less so i don't bother with that as much unless i have a bunch of mats from that tier's farming i don't mind unloading.

SO back to the original post. What is broke? First state the problem, then we (as in the comunity) can help offer ideas and suggestions that may or maynot happen.

[nighthunter]

There are some good ideas here, I like Kaishas' but would it to include the 5hr stuff also. I hate how long it takes to make full stacks of food/drink and I only make items for my couple toons and my guild. Personally I would be happy if all food/drink had the same totals as "Halasian Whiskey" giving a total of 5 if you make it to the end. For me 8 combines for 2 full stacks of food/drink is 100% better then the 20 combines it currently is at (though I think I have everyone in my guild trained to put in orders at least 2 days before they need it so I have time)

[Jesdyr]

I just want to say I do not support "bulk" at all. This would only hurt the market more than it would do good. If you dont want to spend xx time making the item, then buy it off the broker.

[BigChiefJJ]

I think we actually have two schools of thought here from what I remember from the previous thread.  One provisioner is that I mainly make stuff for my self and friends, barely put stuff on the market so I want to spend the lest amount of time crafting as possible so I can adventure.  The other is I'm a crafter to make money and the more I can make the more I can sell.

I think mass production would help the first crafter and adventurer but hurt the second crafter due to influx of goods to the market and more people selling stuff at bare minimal profits.

I will ask the same as one of the previous posters - Is something broken and what are we trying to fix/accomplish?  Currently a crafter, after he/she is able to create 5 hour food, can go through 20 combines (10 food 10 drink) and create enough food and drink to last one person over 6000 minutes of game time.  Assuming it takes one minute to produce each combine that is 300 minutes (5 hours) of game play per minute you spend crafting - if we switch that to 8 combines to create 2 full stacks you would get 12.5 hours of food/drink per minute you spent crafting.  I wish one minute of making arrows would last my ranger anywhere near that long.  

I do like the idea of the rare item combine placed in your food/drink slot holding a stack of food and drink for you and increasing its stat or bonus feature by a percentage or just a flat amount per tier but I do think that this is probably something that can wait until weapons and  jewelry have been given the same love that the armor sets got post RoK.

[Plagee]

I honestly think the bulk provisioning idea would be a good thing an either version.  As a prov, it takes me 10 combines to make a stack of food or drink no matter the duration.  Keeping in mind, my Woodworker makes Arrows in stacks of 100 and only takes 1 combine to make a stack.  My Alchemist makes both potions and poisons in stacks of 10 in 1 combine and a stack of 20 with 2 combines completing the "stack".  Instead of raising the amount a Provisioner can make, lets see how many arrows/poisons/potions would be sold if the Alchmist and Woodworker could only make those items 2 at a time.  Granted my statement here will upset those classes, but then they are the ones getting upset about letting the poor "Cooks" make items in mass quantities like they do.

Edited for poison stack amount.

[Mariss]

Lueen wrote:

I honestly think the bulk provisioning idea would be a good thing an either version.  As a prov, it takes me 10 combines to make a stack of food or drink no matter the duration.  Keeping in mind, my Woodworker makes Arrows in stacks of 100 and only takes 1 combine to make a stack.  My Alchemist makes both potions and poisons in stacks of 10 in 1 combine and a stack of 20 with 2 combines completing the "stack".  Instead of raising the amount a Provisioner can make, lets see how many arrows/poisons/potions would be sold if the Alchmist and Woodworker could only make those items 2 at a time.  Granted my statement here will upset those classes, but then they are the ones getting upset about letting the poor "Cooks" make items in mass quantities like they do.

I have a provisioner, and I actually support not allowing the bulk idea.  Sure woodworkers and alchemists create larger stacks, however their consumables are exhausted at a much faster rate than food/drink.  Rangers (and most scouts in general) plink off arrows at a very high rate.  Potions maybe not as fast, but definately much faster than food is consumed.Any of my toons, on a normal outing, will consume maybe 2 food and 2 drink whereas they'll have gone through stacks of arrows and pots.As it stands now with provisioners (and alchemists to a lesser extent with the duration of poisons), food and drink are not being consumed fast enough to provide any reliable sales on the broker.  The broker is already obscenely overstuffed with food and drink.  Lets not stuff it even more.I'd more prefer seeing food and drink durations shortened to 30/60/90/120 min durations.

[Plagee]

Last time I looked, which was today, all the poisons my Alchy can make last for 12 hours.  I might be new at math but dosen't 12x20 last a little while longer than 5x20.  If the poisons are not selling then the scouts are not using them.  Arrows/thrown weapons will go fast I agree.  My Berserker tends to walk around with a 18 slot quiver that I do have to re-fill from time to time.  Conviently for me, my Alchy is a Swashy, but he still goes thru more food and drink than he does poisons.

[LadyAnnaAnna]

Out of the ideas the OP listed at the top, I have to say that I like Lasai's best - the one about containers to hold food and drink.  Forget a boost to stats - just the fact that you can hold 20 stacks of food/drink at a time and not have to worry about it is awesome enough for me.  I say this as an adventurer, not a provisioner.Secondly,  I don't think provisioning is broken at all.  That said, things do not have to be broken for people to wish to improve them.  There is a wide range of statuses when looking at a skill or process.  There is not simply perfect and broken.  Even with all that though, I doubt any of these ideas will be considered or implemented by the dev's soon, because there are more pressing issues that need to be addressed than improving a not bad system.

[Mariss]

Lueen wrote:

I might be new at math but dosen't 12x20 last a little while longer than 5x20.  If the poisons are not selling then the scouts are not using them.  Arrows/thrown weapons will go fast I agree. 

Note that I did point out the exception for poisons to a lesser extent on the Alchy when compared to arrows.  However poisons are not the only product Alchies produce, they have a lot of instant consumables.  Furthermore, I have yet to see poison last 12 hours.  At most, when I'm actively adventuring, I'll burn all 100 procs of the poison in less than an hour.

[Cadori Seraphim]

I dont believe Provisioner is broken   And I am fully aware of the fact that all classes would want food and drink, compared to poisons..Though, in that respect I still think food and drink are optional. Just like potions and totems. Sure, people wont be caught without them.. but that is in the end their choice. Much like my food and drink, I am not caught without totems or potions. I use all of these when I am grouping or raiding. The idea, I believe has merit.. but not because I feel the trade is broken.

[KerowynnKaotic]

Lasai wrote:

*snipped*

Comparing food to a class specific item neglects market reality.  Food sells to everyone, Poison sells to 4 scout professions.

Instead of false comparisons to other consumables, try convincing a dev me that Provies NEED bulk production to be viable as a profession, and show a dev me a reason beyond convienience of production. 

After that, convince a dev me that the market won't saturate and profit margins become coppers.

Which you have been doing as well, by the way.   Comparing Arrows to Food/Drink.  Arrows only sell to Some Fighters & Some Scouts & are used for DPS.  Food/Drink is a convience not a requirement .. unless you really need those extra few stats

Of 'course Bulk provisioning is about Convienience.  What the heck do you think it's about?

As far as profits go .. /shrug.   There will ALWAYS be [censored] who will undercut and flood the market.  You even admitting to being one. 

If the profit margin goes into the coppers .. simply put .. people will stop making them for sale and only use them for personal use, till the value goes up and the whole thing is started over again.

That's "life" in a MMO market.   

But, it is one of the reasons why I suggested that only CERTAIN Drinks/Foods be allowed to be done in bulk. 

Bulk provisioning could use 1x more Fuel & Supplies than would be normally used in the production of [X] amount.

Using my original example:

• T4 Land Shark.  Lasts 2h 15 min  Yeilds 2.
•      Requires: 1 shark fin + 1 wild apple + 1 supple loam + 1 tussah root + 6 fuels.
• Suggestion#1:  High Grade Land Shark.  Lasts 2h 15 min  Yeilds 10.
•      Requires: 1 Glimmering "stuff" + 5 shark fins + 5 wild apples + 5 supple loam + 5 tussah roots + 30 fuels.
• Suggestion #2:  Baker's Dozen Land Shark.  Lasts 2h 15 min.  Yeilds 13.
•      Requires: 1 Glimmering "stuff" + 7 shark fins + 7 wild apples + 7 supple loam + 7 tussah roots +  42 fuels
• (I just really love the "Baker's Dozen" idea)

I don't suggest allowing every single provisioner recipe to be changed to a bulk combine.  Originally, way back when, I just wanted to be able to make 4 on every Pristine combine (with doubled supplies, of course) but I understand that people are worried about their precious profits on their 5 hour drinks going way down.

That's why I think it would be good if we could just have a few select .. "standard stock", if you will, recipes that can be done quickly and efficiently, these recipes would be most likely be used to supply personal needs and/or for Guildies that don't want to commission the better stuff. 

Get in .. bake up a few things and then get out of the kitchen!  

How many people really play a provisioner to actually stand in front of the Stove for a full 5 hour gaming session?   Maybe, for parties, sure .. but for the whole game?  I don't think so.   As a provo, I like to throw some stock on the broker, make some stuff for personal use, do a few TS writs and then still be able do something else with my gaming time.  

Of 'course lately my provo has been stuck in Danak shipyard and will be there for another 45 writs but at least I have Broker & Bank use now .. lol ..  ... and my pantry is near empty .. haven't had time to throw up any stock for sale 

[Jenarie]

I have a provisioner that I've been leveling with the full intention of supplying my guild with food so that we don't have to pay market price.  I'll be charging them fuel only.  So you would think that I'd love this idea.  Part of me does... it would take me a lot less time to get everyone what he/she needs if I can do more qty per combine.

But I still think it is a very bad idea for the market in general.  Nothing is wrong with the way things are now. 

[Jesdyr]

Jenarie wrote:

So you would think that I'd love this idea. 

The things is ... if your goal is to save your guildmates money, then you would often be better off just farming gold and giving it to them. You could make more in the time it takes to grind up the trade than you would be saving them. This almost true at this time on most servers. If you could make things in bulk, then the margin would be even lower and it really would not be worth your time. edit to give some idea what I am talking about lets say it take 18hrs or work to grind up Prov to 80 (harvesting/tsing)I am going to pretend you can make 1p an hour adventuring (so 18p you could have made)lets say you are suppling 12 people (including you) with 5hr food and drink that would have a markup of 1g each on the broker. That means you could supply each person with 375 hrs (15.6 days) worth of food if they paid for "fuel"   18p / 12 people = 150g 150g / 2g ( 1gold markup for each food and drink) = 75 units of food+drink75 * 5hrs = 375hrs

[BigChiefJJ]

The comparison of provisions to other classes that can make multi batch consumables are unfortunately not the same.  In order to get my Ranger ready for a weekend of raiding/adventuring my Alchemist has to make a minimum of 9 combines (1 damage poison, 2 debuff, 2 utility, 2 tactics potions, and 2 single use cures- maybe more of these) and I'd basically double the poisons if I get a dirge in my group.  My ranger has to craft about 20 combines to make the arrows that I'm going to use, and the provisioner has to make 2 combines (1 food 1 drink) to make the food and drink that I use. 

Woodworkers can make totems that suffice for regen (but not stat boost) that last for 7.5 hours per combine, but the items take up 3 inventory slots vs the provisioner one for 10 hours taking up 1/10 of an inventory slot.

The other way to look at it with provisioners requesting more products per combine is the combine from the 5 hour drink produces 6 times the items as the 40 minute drink, 5 times the items as the 1 hour drink etc.  Honestly as long as the stats are the same I will usually use the longest duration food I can for adventuring since I don't wont to worry about restocking that often, this is probably why the 5 hour stuff is sought after (20 hours of food drink per stack vs 100 hours).

One recipe producing 5/10/15/20 items of the lower timed food per tier starting at about T4 that required a quest / faction to get/buy the recipes probably would not be bad.  Having it produce no-trade food/drink would actually be even better as it would be only useful for provies crafting food for themselves or their guild mates (by commission) and would not flood the market or benefit the ‘bots', but this would prevent someone for making food for one of their alts.  

[Meirril]

The main thrust for bulk recipes is that you don't want to spend all of your time making food and drink instead of something more entertaining. Instead of spending 2 hours making 5 stacks of food and 5 stacks of drink you could be done in 10 minutes and have more time to enjoy the company of other people. As a tailor, I don't spend 5 hours doing anything. As an alchemist, I spend about 15-20 min to make 10 stacks of poison. Why do provisioners need to spend so much time chained to a stove to fill even just their own demands, much less for an entire market's demand?

While I understand that a few live crafters would be effected, the crafters that would really be hurt by bulk combines for provisioners are the ones that are willing to break the EULA and use 3rd party programs to craft food. They don't care if a script works for 5 hours to produce the food they are selling. After all, they are probably doing something other than watching their compter. Even if they are at the keyboard they can at least chat the entire time without worrying about the combines.

Unless we can start making food "in the field" with something that isn't a temporary tinkered item, I see this as the best means to even up the disparity in time crafting for use vs other crafters.

[BigChiefJJ]

Meirril wrote:

The main thrust for bulk recipes is that you don't want to spend all of your time making food and drink instead of something more entertaining. Instead of spending 2 hours making 5 stacks of food and 5 stacks of drink you could be done in 10 minutes and have more time to enjoy the company of other people. As a tailor, I don't spend 5 hours doing anything. As an alchemist, I spend about 15-20 min to make 10 stacks of poison. Why do provisioners need to spend so much time chained to a stove to fill even just their own demands, much less for an entire market's demand?

Unless we can start making food "in the field" with something that isn't a temporary tinkered item, I see this as the best means to even up the disparity in time crafting for use vs other crafters.

5 stacks of food and 5 stacks of drink (100 combines) is enough to last 500 hours of play or 20.8 days of continusous 24 hour play with autoconsume on - so you are saying that you want to be able to generate the food and drink for that amount of time in 15-20 minutes?

If you play 10 hours a day you need to do 2 combines a day to supply yourself with food/dring - if you provide your group with food drink - that is 12 combines (10 minutes) each day crafting food and drink - not 2 hours.

[Oh]

I really hate to say this but seriously WHY should they make more food per combine. IF your too LAZY (yes i said lazy that is the right word) to make the food yourself then PLEASE buy from those of us that are making it and putting it up on broker. As was stated before you can earn more then enough PP to easily pay for your weeks worth of consumption within an hour. This like all things is back to supply and demand. ATM the supply is such that there is a very small margin per item /shrug. IF we increase the supply that can be easily made then that profit goes even smaller. So why is this a good idea to allow provisioners to make more food per combine cause frankly i just don't see one other then a few lazy folks just want to minimize the time they take to make their own food.

[Cadori Seraphim]

Ohiv wrote:

I really hate to say this but seriously WHY should they make more food per combine. IF your too LAZY (yes i said lazy that is the right word) to make the food yourself then PLEASE buy from those of us that are making it and putting it up on broker. As was stated before you can earn more then enough PP to easily pay for your weeks worth of consumption within an hour. This like all things is back to supply and demand. ATM the supply is such that there is a very small margin per item /shrug. IF we increase the supply that can be easily made then that profit goes even smaller. So why is this a good idea to allow provisioners to make more food per combine cause frankly i just don't see one other then a few lazy folks just want to minimize the time they take to make their own food.

Please keep this constructive. Calling people lazy is an insult and not only is it way off base but its not welcome in the discussion.No one here that I have seen so far is saying they wish to have an easy button. As a matter of fact, there are downfalls that each of us have mentioned in our suggestions that would make the *bulk* idea not something people would do on a whim. (far more ingredients as well as a rare type). What I want is people to actually read the suggestions and then comment on why its not right.. and perhaps suggest a better way to make it work. Again, I am not saying Provisioner is broken, nor am I saying I want to make 500 hours worth of food in a few minutes with no added cost or negative side effects.What I am saying is I think there can be a way to add the bulk idea to the game.. for Provisioners to utilize.. (where they would either pay extra, use a rare.. etc)Meirril wrote:

The main thrust for bulk recipes is that you don't want to spend all of your time making food and drink instead of something more entertaining. Instead of spending 2 hours making 5 stacks of food and 5 stacks of drink you could be done in 10 minutes and have more time to enjoy the company of other people. As a tailor, I don't spend 5 hours doing anything. As an alchemist, I spend about 15-20 min to make 10 stacks of poison. Why do provisioners need to spend so much time chained to a stove to fill even just their own demands, much less for an entire market's demand?

Meirril shares the same initial feelings that I have as a Provisioner. In comparison to other classes.. we do indeed spend more time making our product to put up for sale. Perhaps, as someone suggested, only allowing the lower duration drinks for the bulk would be a better idea?

[Oh]

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Ohiv wrote:

I really hate to say this but seriously WHY should they make more food per combine. IF your too LAZY (yes i said lazy that is the right word) to make the food yourself then PLEASE buy from those of us that are making it and putting it up on broker. As was stated before you can earn more then enough PP to easily pay for your weeks worth of consumption within an hour. This like all things is back to supply and demand. ATM the supply is such that there is a very small margin per item /shrug. IF we increase the supply that can be easily made then that profit goes even smaller. So why is this a good idea to allow provisioners to make more food per combine cause frankly i just don't see one other then a few lazy folks just want to minimize the time they take to make their own food.

Please keep this constructive. Calling people lazy is an insult and not only is it way off base but its not welcome in the discussion.No one here that I have seen so far is saying they wish to have an easy button. As a matter of fact, there are downfalls that each of us have mentioned in our suggestions that would make the *bulk* idea not something people would do on a whim. (far more ingredients as well as a rare type). What I want is people to actually read the suggestions and then comment on why its not right.. and perhaps suggest a better way to make it work. Again, I am not saying Provisioner is broken, nor am I saying I want to make 500 hours worth of food in a few minutes with no added cost or negative side effects.What I am saying is I think there can be a way to add the bulk idea to the game.. for Provisioners to utilize.. (where they would either pay extra, use a rare.. etc)Meirril wrote:

The main thrust for bulk recipes is that you don't want to spend all of your time making food and drink instead of something more entertaining. Instead of spending 2 hours making 5 stacks of food and 5 stacks of drink you could be done in 10 minutes and have more time to enjoy the company of other people. As a tailor, I don't spend 5 hours doing anything. As an alchemist, I spend about 15-20 min to make 10 stacks of poison. Why do provisioners need to spend so much time chained to a stove to fill even just their own demands, much less for an entire market's demand?

Meirril shares the same initial feelings that I have as a Provisioner. In comparison to other classes.. we do indeed spend more time making our product to put up for sale. Perhaps, as someone suggested, only allowing the lower duration drinks for the bulk would be a better idea?

Then please answer my first post where i asked what is broken with it currently that these solutions are trying to resolve? (taking developer time to change something means that something is broken that it needs to be fixed hense the word broke) All i see is folks wanting to get a way to make more for less work, to me that is lazy. I am sorry you don't like the word but it is what it is. I understand you want to give "drawbacks" penalities etc, but again it comes back to why not just buy the food/drink off the broker and be done with it? The system that is in place is fine. There are other things I PERSONALLY would rather have our one tradeskill dev work on that would benifit all of the tradeskills not just provisioners. As it is now it takes about 1 minuite to make 2 food or drink. That food or drink lasts 5 hours. There are more then enough provisioners on every server that this is not an issue. As noted several times over the "profit" margin on food is really slim to none. SOOO back to the original question what is broke?

[quote]Calling people lazy is an insult and not only is it way off base but its not welcome in the discussion.[quote]

Might I please ask you refrain from being a forum moderator which you are not, and please actually read what i have said. Lazy is a very valid word and is descriptive of the mentality i am trying to iterate. I am sorry you decided to take it personally it was not ment to you specifically, personally or anyone on this thread. It was simply ment as a descriptor of those that can't seem to be bothered to take the time that is neccessarly to craft enough food for themselves or others on a daily or weekly basis, yet insist that this already simple game needs to be made even simpler. (SOrry very bad case of runon sentance there). I go back to my original stance of first and formost explain in plain english what is broken? The argument of it takes too much time is simply just not holding water considering the current state of the market. IF ANYTHING i would argue we should only get 1 as in ONE food or drink per combine.

man sorry 3rd edit.

Also i am very sorry that i have a different point of view from you. MIGHT i suggest that you take some time and try and see it from the other side of the coin? Maybe the way it is now is actually a good thing?

[Cadori Seraphim]

Ohiv wrote:

Then please answer my first post where i asked what is broken with it currently that these solutions are trying to resolve? (taking developer time to change something means that something is broken that it needs to be fixed hense the word broke) All i see is folks wanting to get a way to make more for less work, to me that is lazy. I am sorry you don't like the word but it is what it is. I understand you want to give "drawbacks" penalities etc, but again it comes back to why not just buy the food/drink off the broker and be done with it? The system that is in place is fine. There are other things I PERSONALLY would rather have our one tradeskill dev work on that would benifit all of the tradeskills not just provisioners. As it is now it takes about 1 minuite to make 2 food or drink. That food or drink lasts 5 hours. There are more then enough provisioners on every server that this is not an issue. As noted several times over the "profit" margin on food is really slim to none. SOOO back to the original question what is broke?

Actually no, you are wrong here. Asking for something, for the future, does not mean anything is broken. What it does mean is that its an option I would like to see considered in the future for Provisioners to have.Do I think other trades can use work before any of this is considered? Heck yes. I would hope for them to work on other important issues before this idea. And to answer your question, again, nothing is *broken*. You edited and I didnt see that lol.To reply to your edit, I am taking into consideration other peoples point of views.. This is why I am asking people to alter the suggestion. Come up with other ideas.. What I dont wish to see continue are insults. So I do ask that we all keep an open mind

[KerowynnKaotic]

Lasai wrote:

*snipped for size scroll around if you are really that interested*

Excuse me, IF you are going to quote me, don't snip and change what I said.  I meant exactly what I typed.

Regarding you accusing me of undercutting, Please, look up HYPOTHETICAL as I stated in my example regarding arrows.  I did NOT compare the two except as a hypothetical example.  I don't undercut.  Period.

And stop with the poor poor provie rhetoric.  Look at my items crafted, I'm certainly no stranger to standing in front of a craft table.  It IS WHAT CRAFTERS DO if they choose to be serious about it.  As with any other aspect of the game, time spent = success gained, whether by adventuring or crafting.

Every crafter sells identical products made from an unexhaustable source of raw materials, on a broker system accessable to everyone, everywhere.  TIME SINK spent producing goods is the SOLE control we have on production.    It is the reason we have button mash single combines, and not MechaMagical Gnomish Baking Ovens that you shove stacks of raws in and leave running.  Convienience is not enough reason to allow bulk production to get a toehold in game.

There should be caution removing controls from the game.  In the bad old days crafting tables killed people who didn't counter.  It was "inconvenient".  However, it was the absolute best control of afk macrobotting.  Its gone, and we have botters and third party programs cranking out goods.  One thing I am positive about from my MMO experience is, if something CAN be done, it WILL be done.  Without built in controls, people will abuse anything, no matter how well intentioned the original idea was.

Finally, I assumed this is a discussion between tradeskillers.  Your "corrections" imply differently.  If indeed a "DEV" is all that matters, please, take this crusade up privately with them and leave it off the board. 

And, I mean exactly what I type as well.  Go US!!   And, fine.  You admit to being a Hypothetical one.  It's not like several of the suggestions haven't already thought of that factor but it's an MMO.  As I said, it is filled with people that will do that regardless of whether or not it has an "easy button" attached to it or not.  Point of fact, there are already plenty who do it with a macro and make it hard for the players who do it the hard way.  

And, I am no stranger to standing in front of a crafting table, either .. choose an account.  I have 4 of them.  All with various crafters on them.   One, of which, is also a Woodworker, so at least there is a "fair" allotment of crafted items on her.   Actually, I went to go look, cause I have never looked before but my lvl 70 WW has done 146,663 items.  If I was actually a Crafter that actually Crafted purely to earn money I suppose she would be even further along but I seldom actually fill up her vendor boxes and don't really need arrows.   You realize that items crafted by a WW really doesn't reflect .. squat, right?   100 items a pop.  Big Freaking deal!  I'd be more impressed by a Armorer who makes over 100,000 without resorting to arrows.

Doesn't mean I want to be tied to the crafting table, forever.   

Time SINKs do NOT equal Success.  They are called TIME SINKS for a reason.  They are there only to provide time delay, not to improve on anything and they generally degrade things.  

And, for the record .. I am all for bringing back the Deadly Forges.   Crafting is rather mindless in it's current implementation.  Push a button or don't push a button usually winds up with the same result after @ lvl 40, where success is pretty much guarenteed.   I can do 2 rush writs  .. 1 on either computer and still have time left over.   That's sad.   However, the Deadly Forges did NOT do that much to stop Macro'g.  They might have delayed some but they didn't completely stop it.  

And, my corrections were correct but not meant to be mean.  We don't have to convince you.  It really doesn't matter if YOU or I or Joesmoe likes or dislikes an idea, it only matters what the Devs think as far as that goes.  We have to convice THEM.  Not you.  You & I are 1 of "an undisclosed number".    And, if this was a board owned by anyone other than SOE, I'd agree with you that it would be a discussion between players but this is the Tradeskill Forum on the official SOE boards and Domino does read these posts and takes what we have to say into consideration.  For good or for bad.  And, posts are geared towards making suggestions to HER and as well as the rest of the Developers.   Not to the players.  Other than getting people excited or upset about an idea ..what would you do with a good/bad suggestion?  How would YOU go about implementing it?  

You said you didn't like it.  You made that clear.  Several posts ago.    This will be my last post directed to you, regarding you, personally.  If you wish to argue with me, as many other seem to like to do, you have my permission to PM me.  If you have something NEW to add to the thread in regards to the good or bad, I'll reply or not reply accordingly to my attention span. 

[bks6721]

I would make some "bulk" combines that used the imbueing material and gave no exp at all, once in a while.here's why.I'm the only high level Provi in my guild.  We have at least 20 people that are 70+ adventure level.  When they come to me with raws to make them food/drink I would like to be able to do so without it taking up all my personal play time.  It makes me feel bad to turn them down, especially if they have offered the raws.I would even support food/drink made in bulk be unable to be placed on the broker for sale.My guildies all offer to make my stuff like armor, jewelry, spells ect.. I'd like to be able to reciprocate in a timely manner.  Thats all.

[KerowynnKaotic]

Ohiv wrote:

I really hate to say this but seriously WHY should they make more food per combine. IF your too LAZY (yes i said lazy that is the right word) to make the food yourself then PLEASE buy from those of us that are making it and putting it up on broker. As was stated before you can earn more then enough PP to easily pay for your weeks worth of consumption within an hour. This like all things is back to supply and demand. ATM the supply is such that there is a very small margin per item /shrug. IF we increase the supply that can be easily made then that profit goes even smaller. So why is this a good idea to allow provisioners to make more food per combine cause frankly i just don't see one other then a few lazy folks just want to minimize the time they take to make their own food.

OH, I totally admit to being lazy ..

I have a 80 Alchemist/Transmuter,  79 Provisioner, 70 Sage, 70 Tailor & 70 WW/Tinker.  I harvest ALL my supplies for all my crafters as well as my hubby's (he has WS, Armorer, Carp & Jeweler).  I generally fill up my vendor boxes on my Provisioner, Tailor & WW every other month.  I am actually working on my hubby's Jeweler because I think he's taking too long and I need new rings, darn it!  I sell vendor boxes full of extra harvests on one of my alts. My Tailor is over 40k faction with the Ironforge Estates, My Provo is over 40K faction with the Coalition of Tradeskill folke.  My Main is Warmly with all the RoK Craft-able Factions and the Provo is on the way ..

Wait ?!  What's the definition of Lazy, again?

You know I could afford to buy the stuff.  I probably do have somewhere around 200p running around on my characters, even my farmers have petty cash of a couple plat on them, but .. that would just be .. i unno .. lazy ..

[Oh]

KerowynnKaotic, I by normal defination would not call you lazy, just simply because you "choose" to have one of nearly every profession. I must congradulate you on your effort and perserverance. I am leveling both a provisioner and a sage at the same time and also gathering the mats to do both. I have ideas for my next 2 characters i will level professions on (still working it out).

Anways I am sidetracking here. What is being asked for is simply put a way to make more quanity with less time spent. Getting something for less time involved to me seems lazy, but lets run with this a bit more. Now whom are the folks asking for this and why I guess should be the valid next questions. I can for any and every profession agree that there is alot of time spent infront of a crafting station making product X. I could say that for a sage that time is somewhat limited cause i make a 1 use item and that person won't come back for that same spell but will come back for a different one. That statement is true for alot of professions, unlike with posions, arrows, and food, totems, etc (the consumables). Now it doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else for that matter likes standing infront of a crafting table to make product X if the developers don't see a problem. To "ME" i don't see a problem, and hense maybe if you can convince me then the true arguement for why this should be done would be enough to sway a developer (assuming that they even read this). Like was stated you spend about 1 minuite give or take to make 2 food or drink. That food or drink will last for 5 hours. There is balance in that granted might not like that balance but there is balance. I could say somewhat similar to arrows and posions but i truely don't understand or know the true consumption rate to equate that balance in perspective.

So back to my questions Why are folks asking for this, cause they percieve that they spend too much time infront of a crafting table as is to make something that is demed a "must" have item. Here is where i say let the free market rule, and mostlikely so are the dev's considering one of the goals is to ensure there is a market to keep the flow of coin flowing. Let others spend that time if you feel your time is to precious to spend making this and would rather make something else with some other character or do something else with some other character. Back to my point of nothing is broken so nothing to fix. WHile i understand that it might feel weird to have someone else make something that you have more then enough skill in to make, that really comes down to a personal choice. Do you feel it's worth your time as it is now to make said food? if not then buy it, if so then make it. As you stated you take blocks of time to "stock" up your pantry for selling. Why not just do that a bit more and make more for yourself in one run?  I keep a personal pantry and a sales pantry (yes I'm ocd about some stuff)

On to the other question, Who is asking for this. Well obviously some of the folks that are crafting too much(this is a person's defination there is no quantative measurement I or anyone can give), but for others i really can't say. What i can say is that if something is implemented that you can make more with equal increments of mats that it would kill the provisioning market even more then it is now, which would be a bad thing and hopefully others can agree on that point.

NOW IF I was to go into a world where I was a developer (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA sorry had to laugh) I would want to create some balance, IF i was to give you the ability to make more i would give it at a steep cost. For example maybe allow you to create 3 items for Tripple the cost across the board (fuel and parts), 4 times the items for sixtimes the cost, so on and so forth. Sure in one combine you could make up to 10 items but it's going to take a TON of mats to do that one combine! To me that would be "giving" in to your wanting to make more in one pass, but also still leaving the current market as is and also adding a detrement to doing the "mass" quantity making. So that those that are trying to still sell on the broker are still going to be doing the original combines, it's just those that are too bothered or lazy doing all of those combines will just do the faster methd and not care. Although even with what i suggested i still think your local broker would be cheaper which is really where the point i'm driving is.

Oh and kerowynnkaotic I don't mean to make this personal you just happened to respond so i am responding back. Please i am not trying to attack you or anything just trying to give more insite and comments.

Edit (sorry) but i didn't want to make 2 seporate posts

[quote]Actually no, you are wrong here. Asking for something, for the future, does not mean anything is broken. What it does mean is that its an option I would like to see considered in the future for Provisioners to have.Do I think other trades can use work before any of this is considered? Heck yes. I would hope for them to work on other important issues before this idea. And to answer your question, again, nothing is *broken*. You edited and I didnt see that lol.To reply to your edit, I am taking into consideration other peoples point of views.. This is why I am asking people to alter the suggestion. Come up with other ideas.. What I dont wish to see continue are insults. So I do ask that we all keep an open mind [quote]

I soo miss the other boards i could just use the quote tags. Oh well I am being lazy not figuring it out myself.

Thanks for that clarification about it wanting to be a "future" wish list item. I think that helps the context more, unfortunatly even that sort of thing I personally would rather see other recipies put in then "wish" for this sort of thing. That is me thou, and well not everyone is the same. (OH MY AM i happy about that). Also I am "assuming" that the dev resources are divvied up like they were where i worked before. Meaning basically the hotest burining fire that needs the work is what gets addressed first, and then on down that list. Truely thou i don't know how SoE runs things, so it is just my conjecture.

[Terron]

Lueen wrote:

Last time I looked, which was today, all the poisons my Alchy can make last for 12 hours.  I might be new at math but dosen't 12x20 last a little while longer than 5x20.

Actually it doesn't, because poisons last 12 hours or a certain number of uses.It takes my swashie less than a hour of adventuring before she has to replace her poisons normally.

[Jehannum]

I agree mostly with what I recall Lasai having posted, before he (assuming) decided to take his ball and go home (or at least remove his past several posts).

As a troubadour, I almost never eat or drink anything I make; perhaps that skews my perceptions or priorities, since I craft primarily for sale (writs or broker) and for guildies - but regardless, I have no problem keeping up my own needs, those of my closer friends, and still being able to manipulate the market somewhat if I believe particular items are overpriced.  Even so, there are people with hundreds of After Darks and Drachnid Bliss who undercut to near cost; I'd rather not see the whole of provisioning reduced to the same state, or even worse.

I should also point out that Ohiv didn't actually call anyone at all lazy; he merely made an assertion about those who are; if that particular shoe fits, it's not his (assuming) fault.