Raids: Why use a mage pet?

Woetohice · 11-15-2007, 10:15 PM

While I'm fully aware that the consensus is to use a mage pet in raids, I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment and ask: why not use a scout? Here's the argument for scout:

* Scouts are better vs. single target mobs (perhaps this is opinion, but it seems that way to me)

* My raid experiece (albeit not very extensive in t7) is that half to 2/3 of the encounters in raids are single mob

* If you complete the agi aa line, not only do you get a 'free' 350-ish damage spell with zero cast time (shadowstep), but Reanimate means you NEVER have a dead pet. This is a big one to me...not recasting a pet means you're doing damage 100% of the time.

* I wonder if most of the testing on scout spec was done with an ad3 scout, since the scout m1 is rather hard to come by. With an M1 scout, perhaps the outcome of a test would be different?

As for me, so far I've yet to be beaten in a raid zw parse with my (M1) scout spec. I do plan on maxing the int line once the dual spec is available, but still, I wonder.... So, enlighten me all you conjy experts out there...are there hard numbers to support the argument for the mage?

....let the flames begin!

Vilnius, lvl 70 Conj

Venekor

Squall Leonhea · 11-15-2007, 11:39 PM

Because you yourself are a mage. Scout pet would need melee buffs, dirge in group etc. Buffs that mean nothing for you. As a mage you should be in a group with troubi, furie etc. These buffs would enhance the scout pet very little. So if you use scout pet it's way harder to get good buffs to you and the pet, 200+ dps alone from troubi procs.And pet shouldn't die (if you know the mobs). There are 1-2 Mobs in EH where it's difficult to do that (don't know about contested) other than that it can survive the whole raid. If your scout pet dies and gets reanimated it looses all buffs right?Don't have numbers to support that but back than people tested it and mage even won on single targets (depending on group (Troubi)).

DobyMT · 11-16-2007, 12:02 AM

Troub Wizard Warlock Illusionist Fury(not as much) These are classes that buff the crap outta mages. Anything else These guys buff melee. Added on to that, the mage pet spells land for more than scout CAs, and there is more, but its too in depth. To use the scout is removing your reason to be in said group, therefore removing your reason to be on the raids. Squall also said this.

littleman17 · 11-16-2007, 12:56 AM

Just a note, reanimation is USELESS! It revives your scout pet as an app1 quality pet... If they were to give the agi a good endline skill, maybe, JUST MAYBE, the scout pet would be a viable option, but only if you aren't in the mage group.

If it were to get this skill, the scout pet would be the superior pet to use in grouping however. With shadow step, your scout pet starts attacking instantly without having to run in, allowing it to unload quicker.

Both the necro and conjie scout pets suffer from the same malady, button mashing. They have no ai, so they are constantly mashing their arts, so they get minimal use out of any double attack/dps/haste buffs. If soe were to give us control over when and how our pet uses their arts, it would be a lot better than it is. I am hoping that with the next aa revamp (this may only be rumor) that they will amp up the agi line to make the scout pets really shine.

Skua · 11-16-2007, 05:03 AM

littleman17 wrote:

If soe were to give us control over when and how our pet uses their arts, it would be a lot better than it is. I am hoping that with the next aa revamp (this may only be rumor) that they will amp up the agi line to make the scout pets really shine.

i proposed that loooooooooong time ago .....and its doable with easy ......just add the buttons from posses minion to the pet window, toggleable and clickable....

Woetohice · 11-16-2007, 05:04 AM

Excellent point on the buffs...you're right, that alone is a great argument for a mage pet. Our guild is a little light on mage support classes, so it hasn't impacted me much one way or the other very often.

Note to littleman17: actually, the reanimated pet's CA's do 2% more damage than the regular casted pet. The other day someone said the same thing to me that you are, so I possesed my pet as a casted pet and as a reanimated pet, and wrote down all the damage ranges. Here's an example:

Casted pet's Thunderous Attack: 383-639 with an interrupt

Reanimated Pet's Thunderous Attack: 391-652 with an interrupt

All the rest of them were the same...slightly higher range on all the reanimated pet's CA's. I guess I don't know about their melee attack though.

One other question...what do you think about the last skill in the int line? Worth the 2 points? It seemed so to me...

hellfire · 11-19-2007, 11:02 AM

Woetohice wrote:

While I'm fully aware that the consensus is to use a mage pet in raids, I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment and ask: why not use a scout? Here's the argument for scout:
* Scouts are better vs. single target mobs (perhaps this is opinion, but it seems that way to me
Nope hasnt been this way since T5
* My raid experiece (albeit not very extensive in t7) is that half to 2/3 of the encounters in raids are single mob
Doesnt matter....even on single target mage blows away scout pet
* If you complete the agi aa line, not only do you get a 'free' 350-ish damage spell with zero cast time (shadowstep), but Reanimate means you NEVER have a dead pet. This is a big one to me...not recasting a pet means you're doing damage 100% of the time.
Hello dont be [Removed for Content] unless it was changed you will have to recast all offensive buffs back onto pet ....so saying you have no downtime is damm false.As far as keeping him more alive its actually more of a hinderence because scout pet is alway in melee range away from you.Mage pet is next to you wanna cast intervention guess what need to call scout pet back or run in same goes for veahment.Now on trash fights or a couple boss fights it wont matter cause your in there meleeing the mobs but when it really counts its more baby sitting then the mage pet.
Mage pet in not crippled by close damage AEs/dispell AEs and doesnt take the risk of repost damage as well as close control AEs.
Mage pet will generally be in range always for Grp cures/wards/reactive from group priest or cure/heal from your self......if didnt know these spells are 10-20 meter range unlike our damage spells with range from 20-30 meters.
Melee types get dominated by brawler type mobs becasue the whole brawler arch type is all about deflect/ and avoidence and pretty much limits the scout pets melee to laughable status.
* I wonder if most of the testing on scout spec was done with an ad3 scout, since the scout m1 is rather hard to come by. With an M1 scout, perhaps the outcome of a test would be different?
Have had both scout/ mage masters for years........
As for me, so far I've yet to be beaten in a raid zw parse with my (M1) scout spec. I do plan on maxing the int line once the dual spec is available, but still, I wonder.... So, enlighten me all you conjy experts out there...are there hard numbers to support the argument for the mage?
Tell rest of the raid stop slacking.
....let the flames begin!
You know damm well any flames start spreading here on main forums will be put out by the mods.Want to come get enlightened and ripped apart by me id be glad to......Go to eq2flames.
Vilnius, lvl 70 Conj
Venekor
Thanks for driveing through

hellfire · 11-19-2007, 11:07 AM

SkuaII wrote:

littleman17 wrote:
If soe were to give us control over when and how our pet uses their arts, it would be a lot better than it is. I am hoping that with the next aa revamp (this may only be rumor) that they will amp up the agi line to make the scout pets really shine.
i proposed that loooooooooong time ago .....and its doable with easy ......just add the buttons from posses minion to the pet window, toggleable and clickable....

what exactually would this do?Lower our over all dps to cast scout CA buttons instead of spamming our own..........

Woetohice · 11-19-2007, 12:34 PM

Hellfire,

Thanks for the post. Questions:

How do you know the mage pet does better vs. single target? I've tried to parse on similar single mobs with both, and as far as I can tell, scout pet wins. But it's not very scientific. Have you done parse testing or know of someone that did? Not trying to be difficult, just want to see the evidence.

True I have to re-cast offensive stance and conjuror's brand (pyreshield and ember seed I keep on other people in group/raid), but they cast pretty fast compared to re-casting a mage pet.

I haven't checked the range on intervention or vehement gem, but I'd have to be within cast range of the mob for other spells anyway, so unless the range on those two is very short I don't see this as an issue. I'll check that when servers are back up.

Glad you've had the scout M1 - it seems most people don't which is why I put that in there.

Darkenskale · 11-20-2007, 11:32 AM

IMO the scout pet still has it's place and it's advantages. For quite a long time I was specced for the mage pet as it was the standard accepted best practice of a conjy. I run ACT because the folks I usually group with like to see the parses. I group primarily with a group of the same 4-6 people more often than not (and I can't speak for raids because I'm just not a fan so I will make no claims in regard to raids).I have to admit I did do the best dps with my mage best. I have never parsed higher than when my mage pet and I were fully pre-pull buffed for a linked group of 3 or more mobs.This, however, is the list of classes I consistently group with(as I said, I group with the same folks all the time give or take a pugged player here or there to fill the group): Guardian, Inquisitor(sometimes plays Wizard alt), Monk, Fury, Brigand, Warden. And please, no flames about group makeup. The point here is not uber class makeup as these are my friends and I play with them for that reason... not to be uber.Our standard group makeup(the folks who are there most often) is: Guardian, Inquisitor, Monk, Warden, Conjy(me) and a pugged group member. That's not exactly optimal buffage for the mage pet...Anywho, our Guardian is insanely fond of pet pulling bosses. Pre expansion any time we were in Oob or MMC I would expect to be asked to pet pull(excessively in MMC). this means I would have to ditch my mage pet, summon a scout pet and then resummon a scout pet after the pull as it died in the process abour 50% of the time. Pain in the [Removed for Content] rear!So I decided to give the scout pet a try and ho boy was I happy with that spec. My parses didn't ever seem to get quite as high as that prime linked group with a fully pre-buffed mage pet but I did more consistent dps instead of spiking up and down like I was used to with the mage pet. And on a pet pull I could have my pet back up and fully buffed before the boss arrived to boot!So that is the difference from my experience. I've only raided a few times but from that experience I'd have to say the mage pet definitely wins out in that arena, but for my playstyle and what kind of things I consistently do in game the scout pet just fits me better.

netglen · 11-20-2007, 11:40 AM

Darkenskale wrote:

Anywho, our Guardian is insanely fond of pet pulling bosses. Pre expansion any time we were in Oob or MMC I would expect to be asked to pet pull(excessively in MMC). this means I would have to ditch my mage pet, summon a scout pet and then resummon a scout pet after the pull as it died in the process abour 50% of the time. Pain in the [Removed for Content] rear!

Why let your scout pet die like that? Why not instantly summon it back once it engages combat with the boss? I would never let my pet have to run all the way back like that. SMILEY

Banditman · 11-20-2007, 01:26 PM

Use the wall at the Tabernacle of Pain if you really want to test it. One of the tests there has you killing a wall that has a really ludicrous number of hit points - and it doesn't attack back. Hey, it is a wall after all right?Anyway, it's a great place to do a controlled test if you want to do it.I suppose the real problem you run into is that it's not a raid situation, and you have to play it smart in those situations. It's really a question of buffs.You see, there are tons and tons of group buffs that can help your Mage pet - especially with a Troubador in group. Procs from Aria and PoM are huge, and they work for your Mage pet - but not the Scout!One the other hand, there really aren't all that many buffs that help your Scout pet. What that pet needs simply isn't generally provided.The other consideration is AE effects.Whether we're talking about a Frontal or full 360 AE, your Scout pet is going to be in harm's way. One single death of your Scout pet and you've already given up any advantage you might think you had. Too many "bad" things happen at point blank range. An Assassin gets crazy on the DPS and the mob turns to eat him, in the process, the mob fires off his frontal AE and kills your pet. Or even if the mob doesn't fire that frontal AE, he ripostes your pet. Dead pet = 0 DPS.There are just too many drawbacks to a Scout pet in raid situations.

hellfire · 11-21-2007, 02:21 AM

Woetohice wrote:

Hellfire,
Thanks for the post. Questions:
How do you know the mage pet does better vs. single target? I've tried to parse on similar single mobs with both, and as far as I can tell, scout pet wins. But it's not very scientific. Have you done parse testing or know of someone that did? Not trying to be difficult, just want to see the evidence.
Cause ive been in this game and class since game has been release and have done hundreds of tests.
True I have to re-cast offensive stance and conjuror's brand (pyreshield and ember seed I keep on other people in group/raid), but they cast pretty fast compared to re-casting a mage pet.
I haven't checked the range on intervention or vehement gem, but I'd have to be within cast range of the mob for other spells anyway, so unless the range on those two is very short I don't see this as an issue. I'll check that when servers are back up.
Intervention is 20 meters veahament gem is 10.Your nuke spell range is 25-35 also BA is short range.
Glad you've had the scout M1 - it seems most people don't which is why I put that in there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well im 80 now and have scout and mage both at adept 3 so will do another round of tests.Will be out of town till sunday nite o nothing befor then from me.
Hopefully can get it stickied so this silly subject doesnt come up again.

Supernova17 · 11-21-2007, 03:34 AM

Mage is still dominating... Too many mobs already with barrages and local AOE's, a few have damage shields. This is all solo/group, haven't played with the raid mobs yet.

netglen · 11-21-2007, 09:31 AM

Banditman wrote:

Use the wall at the Tabernacle of Pain if you really want to test it. One of the tests there has you killing a wall that has a really ludicrous number of hit points - and it doesn't attack back. Hey, it is a wall after all right?

It's a fun and long fight but it would be the perfect encounter if we can some how make it drop our Master-I books. SMILEY

Woetohice · 11-21-2007, 12:38 PM

Where is the Tabernacle of Pain?

Banditman · 11-21-2007, 01:48 PM

Kunzar Jungle.

hellfire · 11-25-2007, 04:28 AM

Came back from vacation last night logged in looked on broker and there is master mage pet.So wont be any comprative T8 tests from me till get scout master.

istedgademanden · 12-04-2007, 10:38 AM

was using mage mostly on t7 but fallen in love with scout here at t8 often in mage group theres a fury that dont have any place to put Agitate ( not sure whats its called in t SMILEY

that can add on quite a bit dps for the scoutpet. not sure if any of the other toons in a typical caster group have melee buffs they dont have a toon to put on but going to stick with scout for a bit and test it outbad things i can imagine can cause trouble for scout = aoe, and also no anti hate like that skill from firepet aa line

Supp · 12-04-2007, 02:07 PM

littleman17 wrote:

Both the necro and conjie scout pets suffer from the same malady, button mashing. They have no ai, so they are constantly mashing their arts, so they get minimal use out of any double attack/dps/haste buffs.

That is a really good point against using the scout pet in raids. As a bruiser also, I know exactly what you mean. But I will say that several people claim that autoattacks trigger regardless of button mashing because of the .5 second cooldown attached to every CA. Perhaps the scout pet's CA's dont have this .5 second cooldown.

Several of my fellow necros are claiming that the mage pet barely upgraded at all from T7 and that the scout pet is parsing higher in raid. That may not be so with the conjuror mage pet, and I will point out that I havent tested it myself. Just the thought of casting that pansy aristocratic MMC vampire repels me!

Supernova17 · 12-05-2007, 01:28 AM

It doesn't list it on the Scout pet possession, but the Mage pet has Instant Reuse speed (even though it is given AA for it) which was given to it in part to stop it from trying to run up and auto-attack during the cool down period in-between spell casts before /pet ranged came along. Scout may have instant reuse too, never bothered checking it.

11-16-2007, 12:56 AM	#4
littleman17 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 675	Just a note, reanimation is USELESS! It revives your scout pet as an app1 quality pet... If they were to give the agi a good endline skill, maybe, JUST MAYBE, the scout pet would be a viable option, but only if you aren't in the mage group. If it were to get this skill, the scout pet would be the superior pet to use in grouping however. With shadow step, your scout pet starts attacking instantly without having to run in, allowing it to unload quicker. Both the necro and conjie scout pets suffer from the same malady, button mashing. They have no ai, so they are constantly mashing their arts, so they get minimal use out of any double attack/dps/haste buffs. If soe were to give us control over when and how our pet uses their arts, it would be a lot better than it is. I am hoping that with the next aa revamp (this may only be rumor) that they will amp up the agi line to make the scout pets really shine. __________________ Faynar: Level 71 Ranger Daynar: Level 57 Bruiser Tulnar: Level 61 Necromancer Kulnar: Level 50 Templar Bronar: Level 43 Paladin Vronar: Level 40 Defiler Everfrost FTW!

11-16-2007, 05:03 AM	#5
Skua General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 660	littleman17 wrote: If soe were to give us control over when and how our pet uses their arts, it would be a lot better than it is. I am hoping that with the next aa revamp (this may only be rumor) that they will amp up the agi line to make the scout pets really shine. i proposed that loooooooooong time ago .....and its doable with easy ......just add the buttons from posses minion to the pet window, toggleable and clickable.... __________________ English isnt my 1 language !!!! My spelling sux i know

11-19-2007, 11:02 AM	#7
hellfire Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NY Posts: 1,842	Woetohice wrote: While I'm fully aware that the consensus is to use a mage pet in raids, I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment and ask: why not use a scout? Here's the argument for scout: * Scouts are better vs. single target mobs (perhaps this is opinion, but it seems that way to me Nope hasnt been this way since T5 * My raid experiece (albeit not very extensive in t7) is that half to 2/3 of the encounters in raids are single mob Doesnt matter....even on single target mage blows away scout pet * If you complete the agi aa line, not only do you get a 'free' 350-ish damage spell with zero cast time (shadowstep), but Reanimate means you NEVER have a dead pet. This is a big one to me...not recasting a pet means you're doing damage 100% of the time. Hello dont be [Removed for Content] unless it was changed you will have to recast all offensive buffs back onto pet ....so saying you have no downtime is damm false.As far as keeping him more alive its actually more of a hinderence because scout pet is alway in melee range away from you.Mage pet is next to you wanna cast intervention guess what need to call scout pet back or run in same goes for veahment.Now on trash fights or a couple boss fights it wont matter cause your in there meleeing the mobs but when it really counts its more baby sitting then the mage pet. Mage pet in not crippled by close damage AEs/dispell AEs and doesnt take the risk of repost damage as well as close control AEs. Mage pet will generally be in range always for Grp cures/wards/reactive from group priest or cure/heal from your self......if didnt know these spells are 10-20 meter range unlike our damage spells with range from 20-30 meters. Melee types get dominated by brawler type mobs becasue the whole brawler arch type is all about deflect/ and avoidence and pretty much limits the scout pets melee to laughable status. * I wonder if most of the testing on scout spec was done with an ad3 scout, since the scout m1 is rather hard to come by. With an M1 scout, perhaps the outcome of a test would be different? Have had both scout/ mage masters for years........ As for me, so far I've yet to be beaten in a raid zw parse with my (M1) scout spec. I do plan on maxing the int line once the dual spec is available, but still, I wonder.... So, enlighten me all you conjy experts out there...are there hard numbers to support the argument for the mage? Tell rest of the raid stop slacking. ....let the flames begin! You know damm well any flames start spreading here on main forums will be put out by the mods.Want to come get enlightened and ripped apart by me id be glad to......Go to eq2flames. Vilnius, lvl 70 Conj Venekor Thanks for driveing through __________________ Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class. SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST! FIX SUMMONERS IN 08! FIX SUMMONERS IN 09! FIX SUMMONERS IN 10! 2011 and Finally we are Fixed! /Rides off into the sunset

11-19-2007, 11:07 AM	#8
hellfire Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NY Posts: 1,842	SkuaII wrote: littleman17 wrote: If soe were to give us control over when and how our pet uses their arts, it would be a lot better than it is. I am hoping that with the next aa revamp (this may only be rumor) that they will amp up the agi line to make the scout pets really shine. i proposed that loooooooooong time ago .....and its doable with easy ......just add the buttons from posses minion to the pet window, toggleable and clickable.... what exactually would this do?Lower our over all dps to cast scout CA buttons instead of spamming our own.......... __________________ Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class. SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST! FIX SUMMONERS IN 08! FIX SUMMONERS IN 09! FIX SUMMONERS IN 10! 2011 and Finally we are Fixed! /Rides off into the sunset

11-20-2007, 11:40 AM	#11
netglen Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 371	Darkenskale wrote: Anywho, our Guardian is insanely fond of pet pulling bosses. Pre expansion any time we were in Oob or MMC I would expect to be asked to pet pull(excessively in MMC). this means I would have to ditch my mage pet, summon a scout pet and then resummon a scout pet after the pull as it died in the process abour 50% of the time. Pain in the [Removed for Content] rear! Why let your scout pet die like that? Why not instantly summon it back once it engages combat with the boss? I would never let my pet have to run all the way back like that.

11-15-2007, 10:15 PM	#1
Woetohice Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 51	While I'm fully aware that the consensus is to use a mage pet in raids, I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment and ask: why not use a scout? Here's the argument for scout: * Scouts are better vs. single target mobs (perhaps this is opinion, but it seems that way to me) * My raid experiece (albeit not very extensive in t7) is that half to 2/3 of the encounters in raids are single mob * If you complete the agi aa line, not only do you get a 'free' 350-ish damage spell with zero cast time (shadowstep), but Reanimate means you NEVER have a dead pet. This is a big one to me...not recasting a pet means you're doing damage 100% of the time. * I wonder if most of the testing on scout spec was done with an ad3 scout, since the scout m1 is rather hard to come by. With an M1 scout, perhaps the outcome of a test would be different? As for me, so far I've yet to be beaten in a raid zw parse with my (M1) scout spec. I do plan on maxing the int line once the dual spec is available, but still, I wonder.... So, enlighten me all you conjy experts out there...are there hard numbers to support the argument for the mage? ....let the flames begin! Vilnius, lvl 70 Conj Venekor

11-15-2007, 11:39 PM	#2
Squall Leonhea General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 130	Because you yourself are a mage. Scout pet would need melee buffs, dirge in group etc. Buffs that mean nothing for you. As a mage you should be in a group with troubi, furie etc. These buffs would enhance the scout pet very little. So if you use scout pet it's way harder to get good buffs to you and the pet, 200+ dps alone from troubi procs.And pet shouldn't die (if you know the mobs). There are 1-2 Mobs in EH where it's difficult to do that (don't know about contested) other than that it can survive the whole raid. If your scout pet dies and gets reanimated it looses all buffs right?Don't have numbers to support that but back than people tested it and mage even won on single targets (depending on group (Troubi)).

11-16-2007, 12:02 AM	#3
DobyMT Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 568	Troub Wizard Warlock Illusionist Fury(not as much) These are classes that buff the crap outta mages. Anything else These guys buff melee. Added on to that, the mage pet spells land for more than scout CAs, and there is more, but its too in depth. To use the scout is removing your reason to be in said group, therefore removing your reason to be on the raids. Squall also said this.

11-16-2007, 05:04 AM	#6
Woetohice Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 51	Excellent point on the buffs...you're right, that alone is a great argument for a mage pet. Our guild is a little light on mage support classes, so it hasn't impacted me much one way or the other very often. Note to littleman17: actually, the reanimated pet's CA's do 2% more damage than the regular casted pet. The other day someone said the same thing to me that you are, so I possesed my pet as a casted pet and as a reanimated pet, and wrote down all the damage ranges. Here's an example: Casted pet's Thunderous Attack: 383-639 with an interrupt Reanimated Pet's Thunderous Attack: 391-652 with an interrupt All the rest of them were the same...slightly higher range on all the reanimated pet's CA's. I guess I don't know about their melee attack though. One other question...what do you think about the last skill in the int line? Worth the 2 points? It seemed so to me...

11-19-2007, 12:34 PM	#9
Woetohice Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 51	Hellfire, Thanks for the post. Questions: How do you know the mage pet does better vs. single target? I've tried to parse on similar single mobs with both, and as far as I can tell, scout pet wins. But it's not very scientific. Have you done parse testing or know of someone that did? Not trying to be difficult, just want to see the evidence. True I have to re-cast offensive stance and conjuror's brand (pyreshield and ember seed I keep on other people in group/raid), but they cast pretty fast compared to re-casting a mage pet. I haven't checked the range on intervention or vehement gem, but I'd have to be within cast range of the mob for other spells anyway, so unless the range on those two is very short I don't see this as an issue. I'll check that when servers are back up. Glad you've had the scout M1 - it seems most people don't which is why I put that in there.

11-20-2007, 11:32 AM	#10
Darkenskale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	IMO the scout pet still has it's place and it's advantages. For quite a long time I was specced for the mage pet as it was the standard accepted best practice of a conjy. I run ACT because the folks I usually group with like to see the parses. I group primarily with a group of the same 4-6 people more often than not (and I can't speak for raids because I'm just not a fan so I will make no claims in regard to raids).I have to admit I did do the best dps with my mage best. I have never parsed higher than when my mage pet and I were fully pre-pull buffed for a linked group of 3 or more mobs.This, however, is the list of classes I consistently group with(as I said, I group with the same folks all the time give or take a pugged player here or there to fill the group): Guardian, Inquisitor(sometimes plays Wizard alt), Monk, Fury, Brigand, Warden. And please, no flames about group makeup. The point here is not uber class makeup as these are my friends and I play with them for that reason... not to be uber.Our standard group makeup(the folks who are there most often) is: Guardian, Inquisitor, Monk, Warden, Conjy(me) and a pugged group member. That's not exactly optimal buffage for the mage pet...Anywho, our Guardian is insanely fond of pet pulling bosses. Pre expansion any time we were in Oob or MMC I would expect to be asked to pet pull(excessively in MMC). this means I would have to ditch my mage pet, summon a scout pet and then resummon a scout pet after the pull as it died in the process abour 50% of the time. Pain in the [Removed for Content] rear!So I decided to give the scout pet a try and ho boy was I happy with that spec. My parses didn't ever seem to get quite as high as that prime linked group with a fully pre-buffed mage pet but I did more consistent dps instead of spiking up and down like I was used to with the mage pet. And on a pet pull I could have my pet back up and fully buffed before the boss arrived to boot!So that is the difference from my experience. I've only raided a few times but from that experience I'd have to say the mage pet definitely wins out in that arena, but for my playstyle and what kind of things I consistently do in game the scout pet just fits me better.

11-20-2007, 01:26 PM	#12
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	Use the wall at the Tabernacle of Pain if you really want to test it. One of the tests there has you killing a wall that has a really ludicrous number of hit points - and it doesn't attack back. Hey, it is a wall after all right?Anyway, it's a great place to do a controlled test if you want to do it.I suppose the real problem you run into is that it's not a raid situation, and you have to play it smart in those situations. It's really a question of buffs.You see, there are tons and tons of group buffs that can help your Mage pet - especially with a Troubador in group. Procs from Aria and PoM are huge, and they work for your Mage pet - but not the Scout!One the other hand, there really aren't all that many buffs that help your Scout pet. What that pet needs simply isn't generally provided.The other consideration is AE effects.Whether we're talking about a Frontal or full 360 AE, your Scout pet is going to be in harm's way. One single death of your Scout pet and you've already given up any advantage you might think you had. Too many "bad" things happen at point blank range. An Assassin gets crazy on the DPS and the mob turns to eat him, in the process, the mob fires off his frontal AE and kills your pet. Or even if the mob doesn't fire that frontal AE, he ripostes your pet. Dead pet = 0 DPS.There are just too many drawbacks to a Scout pet in raid situations. __________________

11-21-2007, 02:21 AM	#13
hellfire Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NY Posts: 1,842	Woetohice wrote: Hellfire, Thanks for the post. Questions: How do you know the mage pet does better vs. single target? I've tried to parse on similar single mobs with both, and as far as I can tell, scout pet wins. But it's not very scientific. Have you done parse testing or know of someone that did? Not trying to be difficult, just want to see the evidence. Cause ive been in this game and class since game has been release and have done hundreds of tests. True I have to re-cast offensive stance and conjuror's brand (pyreshield and ember seed I keep on other people in group/raid), but they cast pretty fast compared to re-casting a mage pet. I haven't checked the range on intervention or vehement gem, but I'd have to be within cast range of the mob for other spells anyway, so unless the range on those two is very short I don't see this as an issue. I'll check that when servers are back up. Intervention is 20 meters veahament gem is 10.Your nuke spell range is 25-35 also BA is short range. Glad you've had the scout M1 - it seems most people don't which is why I put that in there. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well im 80 now and have scout and mage both at adept 3 so will do another round of tests.Will be out of town till sunday nite o nothing befor then from me. Hopefully can get it stickied so this silly subject doesnt come up again. __________________ Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class. SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST! FIX SUMMONERS IN 08! FIX SUMMONERS IN 09! FIX SUMMONERS IN 10! 2011 and Finally we are Fixed! /Rides off into the sunset

11-21-2007, 03:34 AM	#14
Supernova17 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,317	Mage is still dominating... Too many mobs already with barrages and local AOE's, a few have damage shields. This is all solo/group, haven't played with the raid mobs yet.

11-21-2007, 09:31 AM	#15
netglen Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 371	Banditman wrote: Use the wall at the Tabernacle of Pain if you really want to test it. One of the tests there has you killing a wall that has a really ludicrous number of hit points - and it doesn't attack back. Hey, it is a wall after all right? It's a fun and long fight but it would be the perfect encounter if we can some how make it drop our Master-I books.

11-21-2007, 12:38 PM	#16
Woetohice Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 51	Where is the Tabernacle of Pain?

11-21-2007, 01:48 PM	#17
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	Kunzar Jungle. __________________

11-25-2007, 04:28 AM	#18
hellfire Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NY Posts: 1,842	Came back from vacation last night logged in looked on broker and there is master mage pet.So wont be any comprative T8 tests from me till get scout master. __________________ Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class. SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST! FIX SUMMONERS IN 08! FIX SUMMONERS IN 09! FIX SUMMONERS IN 10! 2011 and Finally we are Fixed! /Rides off into the sunset

12-04-2007, 10:38 AM	#19
istedgademanden Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 4	was using mage mostly on t7 but fallen in love with scout here at t8 often in mage group theres a fury that dont have any place to put Agitate ( not sure whats its called in t that can add on quite a bit dps for the scoutpet. not sure if any of the other toons in a typical caster group have melee buffs they dont have a toon to put on but going to stick with scout for a bit and test it outbad things i can imagine can cause trouble for scout = aoe, and also no anti hate like that skill from firepet aa line

12-04-2007, 02:07 PM	#20
Supp General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 687	littleman17 wrote: Both the necro and conjie scout pets suffer from the same malady, button mashing. They have no ai, so they are constantly mashing their arts, so they get minimal use out of any double attack/dps/haste buffs. That is a really good point against using the scout pet in raids. As a bruiser also, I know exactly what you mean. But I will say that several people claim that autoattacks trigger regardless of button mashing because of the .5 second cooldown attached to every CA. Perhaps the scout pet's CA's dont have this .5 second cooldown. Several of my fellow necros are claiming that the mage pet barely upgraded at all from T7 and that the scout pet is parsing higher in raid. That may not be so with the conjuror mage pet, and I will point out that I havent tested it myself. Just the thought of casting that pansy aristocratic MMC vampire repels me! __________________ 80 Barbarian Necromancer \| 139 AA \| 380 Tinkerer of Antonia Bayle 80 Fae Warlock \| 135 AA \| 400 Tinkerer of Antonia Bayle 80 Teir'Dal Bruiser \| 132 AA \| 76 Carpenter \| 350 Tinkerer of Antonia Bayle 80 Arasai Mystic \| 132 AA \| 370 Tinkerer of Antonia Bayle 71 Barbarian Guardian \| 108 AA \| 350 Muter of Antonia Bayle 70 Teir'Dal Fury \| 81 AA \| 80 Sage \| 400 Transmuter of Antonia Bayle 61 Sarnak Ranger \| 75 AA of Antonia Bayle Betrayals: Bruiser (2) \| Fury (1) \| Warlock (2) \| Mystic (1) \| Guardian (1) \| Ranger (1) \| Others (3)

12-05-2007, 01:28 AM	#21
Supernova17 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,317	It doesn't list it on the Scout pet possession, but the Mage pet has Instant Reuse speed (even though it is given AA for it) which was given to it in part to stop it from trying to run up and auto-attack during the cool down period in-between spell casts before /pet ranged came along. Scout may have instant reuse too, never bothered checking it.