The Crafting System

[Condar Tarsonia]

VladisSar wrote:

a1will  hit it right on the head.

The crafted item do not stand the competition. And higher you go the worst it becomes. Specialy in case of armorer and weaponsmith. Some peopel may have started crafting "to relax" cuase they like the very process of crafting, but I was under impression that there should be more reward than just "the process"

Back when we had sub-combines, Master crafted was on par with legendary. Of course once craftign become so easy (in terms of makign final items) the mastercrafted was heavily nerfed...

Hello SOE- can I have my crafting dificulty back so mastercrafted actualy worth a while to someone other than low level twink?

Same goes for handcrafted items- we had a short time of market spiek when trasnmutign went life and Tresured prices skyrocketed - now its all gone - handcrafted can barely compite with quested and droped items. Yes they are cheap substitute, but only cuase SOE choose to make them this way. I liked them much better when they were less numerious but worthy!

My Sage is lev 35 - havent yet made a single 30+ recepy, not ever made any item twice. My armorer is 28 - and my bank is filled with dozens of armor sets.

I so do not want to do any writs just to level up.

I want to spend 1 hour making ONE item, but when it comes out I want 15 people standing outside beging me to be the one I choose to sell it to

And therein lies the problem.  First, I seriously doubt the majority of players want to spend one hour making one item - I don't go adventuring/traveling for one hour to slay one mob, so I sure as heck don't want to have to waste that amount of time crafting.  I also liked subcombines (to an extent), but again, they really serve no purpose now except to make things more complex in the sense you have to know what items to make before you can get to what you actually want.  It didn't make crafting any harder (although interdependency is another issue), as every recipe requires the exact same amount of effort.  So increasing the number of steps isn't going to make your stuff any more desirable - nor will bringing back subcombines.  Instead it's only going to make fewer people enjoy crafting, which will lead to fewer items on the market, and while you may think that means people will flock to you for your products - they're still inferior.  More on that shortly.Secondly, after one hour you want 15 people begging you for the item?  That just sounds greedy... and that would also imply the item would have to be of incredible quality to have such desirability.  If that's the case, than you're going to have a lot of crafters choose that trade to make said piece, and you'll return to the same problem of an overabundance of goods.Also, I don't see the argument/point you're trying to make about your Sage versus the Armorer.  Are you implying you've sold all of those handcrafted, Apprentice IV spells on the broker?  If so, I call shenanigans - I've had Apprentice IV's up there for MONTHS that don't sell, and I have them at the lowest possible prices (to make the same amount I would selling to the vendors) - I haven't taken them down solely because I have nothing else to put there.  If you're just implying that it's "easy to level-up" this is an undisputed fact, and really has little point - Domino has acknowledged the fact that some classes have few recipes, while others have tons of less desirable quality.  She has noted she hopes to fix that (reference: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...58&#4089673).What do you have against writs by the way?  If you choose to pass up free experience, fine, but can you explain why you would do so or what is so bad about them?  If the argument is you "shouldn't have to do them" the same argument could be made about adventuring - I shouldn't have to do quests (in a game called EverQuest), but I choose to because of the bonus experience and reward.  Otherwise, I would spend time killing the same stuff over and over with no purpose.  The same can be said for crafting.Finally, as noted, I agree that a lot of crafted items are extremely inferior to quested/dropped items.  Do I agree with this choice?  No - I think Mastercrafted should easily surpass Treasured gear, and be on par or just a bit lower from Legendary.  As it stands, this is most certainly not the case in later tiers (particularly T6 and T7).  But again, I don't see adding subcombines changing gear progression at all - that's an entirely different design decision.  The way it's currently handled appears to be crafted gear as being your 'introductory' gear for a tier to help you get started, and then finding much better gear afterwards.  This seems quite dumb to me, and I also hope Domino can make crafted items more desirable, especially in the later tiers.I'd also like to point out what Domino has said in the past about subcombines here - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...2&#4176827.In short, bringing back subcombines in and of itself does not make crafting any more difficult, nor more enjoyable (to me anyway), and also does not necessarily mean an improvement in the stuff you are making.  I also seriously doubt we will see them again in their original form as evidenced by the post above.  Instead, I think people should focus their efforts on improving their classes with the systems we have in place or what could be added in addition to what is already there.  An example of this is Daine's recent ideas for armorers, which I think were great ideas.  Spending time on coming up with ideas to improve what we have is much better spent than lamenting about what has changed, and most likely what we'll never have again.(Edit: Minor spelling correction, added an additional thought and link)

[VladisSar]

Condar Tarsonia , i see your logic and your words are wise.

I just wish that something could be done so some classes don't have to flood the broker with items no one need, just to level up. I wish that every crafted item has value and purpose and be wanted by others. Otherwise - what are we crafting for, besides personal enjoyment?

In regards to my Sage and Armorer - Honestly - I don't want more recepies - I want my products to be desireable - then i won't have a problem making more of the same thing. My sage is not any happier than my armorer - all the Apr4 I am making most of them time go to the vendor - so LOTS of recepies not realy a solution to anything. Desireability is.

Speaking of armor and weapon cretaion - I offered this long ago. Let crafter create a BASIC item, and then using additional recepies to "augment" it with specific stats.

For example I will craft a Fayiron Bresplate (no stats). Then I can use some combination of gems/metals/whatever to add SPECIFIC stats to it. I don't want predesigned +4 str +4 wis armor,  want +8 sta one. Same can be done with weapons

[Condar Tarsonia]

VladisSar wrote:

Condar Tarsonia , i see your logic and your words are wise.

I just wish that something could be done so some classes don't have to flood the broker with items no one need, just to level up. I wish that every crafted item has value and purpose and be wanted by others. Otherwise - what are we crafting for, besides personal enjoyment?

In regards to my Sage and Armorer - Honestly - I don't want more recepies - I want my products to be desireable - then i won't have a problem making more of the same thing. My sage is not any happier than my armorer - all the Apr4 I am making most of them time go to the vendor - so LOTS of recepies not realy a solution to anything. Desireability is.

Speaking of armor and weapon cretaion - I offered this long ago. Let crafter create a BASIC item, and then using additional recepies to "augment" it with specific stats.

For example I will craft a Fayiron Bresplate (no stats). Then I can use some combination of gems/metals/whatever to add SPECIFIC stats to it. I don't want predesigned +4 str +4 wis armor,  want +8 sta one. Same can be done with weapons

I had recommended a similar suggestion way back in the day about augmenting items with gems and the like.  Then they implemented transmuting, so I don't know if we'll ever see anything like that.  I think it's a great suggestion though, and maybe sometime we could work on fleshing out a proposal - who knows, Domino may agree and it might help out some.  I wholeheartedly agree with a more 'free' system allowing you to customize pieces, but I'm not sure if the code is 'free' enough to allow for such an extensive change.  I figure some of the groundwork has been laid, with the Relic gear (collecting stones and a mold and whatnot, then having it 'made' at the forge in Sol Eye... although there isn't any crafting involved, the premise would be similar).These are the types of suggestions I think we need more of though - so keep them coming Edit: I agree with the point we need more desirable items in general, as opposed to a large number as well.  The problem that Domino pointed out is how to make items desirable enough to make tradeskills viable without making dropped/quested items no longer an option - or at least that's how I interpreted it in her previous posts, I don't want to put words in her mouth!

[Terron]

Condar Tarsonia wrote:

To reiterate, I seriously doubt we'll ever see subcombines again, Subcombines in then sense of combines you have to do to make ingredients for the final combine still exist in at least 2 ways - imbued items need a normal item as a sub combine and the Wyrmslayer HQ is done in several steps.  Since starting my Woodworker, I have done nothing but tradeskill writs to level up, aside from the first pristine of each new recipe and an occasional session of making arrows and totems for some friends and profit. Which do you find more interesting? For me making stuff for sale or use is much better. Which is more profitable? For my woodworker (level 50) making arrows and totems is more profitable than doing writs, and I don't have to wait long for them to sell. But subcombines aren't the answer - it's great to reminisce about the 'old days' and I miss it a bit too (it felt more rewarding finishing a product after making some straps, strips of leather, buckles... etc), but again I seriously doubt it'll go back to that ever again. That feeling is why I think the old system was better. Most of that feeling could have been kept whilst reducing the number of subcomines greatly, but it is too late now. But it is worth noting what was good about subcombines so as to try to bring that goodness back to some extent.   As others have suggested, every tradeskill class needs a desirable consumable (or two or three) in every tier. A desirable product, but not necessarily consumable. The better bloodlines spells did work for scholars. Classes with fewer recipes need more, so the endless "Sages can reach level 70 sooooo fast it's not fair *cry whine sob*" posts will cease. More recipes yes - but the posts would just be replaced by other whines Alternative XP sources should be introduced... but honestly, with the tradeskill writs, I don't really see how you could introduce 'new' quests - they're all going to ask you to craft, generally, the exact same thing. More quests would add more variety. The main problem with writs is how repetative they are.

[Condar Tarsonia]

Terron@Splitpaw wrote:

Condar Tarsonia wrote:

To reiterate, I seriously doubt we'll ever see subcombines again, Subcombines in then sense of combines you have to do to make ingredients for the final combine still exist in at least 2 ways - imbued items need a normal item as a sub combine and the Wyrmslayer HQ is done in several steps.I wouldn't consider imbued weapons a source of subcombines though, but I guess it depends on how you're defining subcombines.  When I think back to what they were, a subcombine was an item that had no use other than to make a final product.  Making imbued items was sort of tacked on, so it used a final product in addition to something else to make it better.  This is similar to the idea VladisSar posted, in that other items could be used to improve an item further through crafting.  I would much rather have seen a system like this than the current adornment system, but it's too late for that I suppose.As to the Wurmslayer HQ, I haven't done it, so I'll give you that one  Since starting my Woodworker, I have done nothing but tradeskill writs to level up, aside from the first pristine of each new recipe and an occasional session of making arrows and totems for some friends and profit. Which do you find more interesting? For me making stuff for sale or use is much better. Which is more profitable? For my woodworker (level 50) making arrows and totems is more profitable than doing writs, and I don't have to wait long for them to sell.I don't necessarily find either form of leveling more 'interesting' as I'm still doing the same thing/process.  I agree, my arrows and totems sell like hotcakes (although it may have something to do with me pricing them very low), but it's no more interesting to me - I still make a profit doing writs.  I agree making arrows and totems would be easily more profitable than doing writs, but I'm one of those people who likes to level quickly to make 'high-end' stuff.  Is this the best way?  No, but it's what *I* like to do - others like to take their time and make more profit along the way.  But by doing writs I can pretty much guarantee I'll level up faster, which is what I personally want.  So complaining that there is a flood of items on the market and no way to make a profit/good experience is poor, because writs are an easy solution to that problem (although I agree it's not the best, but you have to make do with what you have).I also want to point out that this is really only true for certain classes as you noted, like Woodworkers and Provisioners.  Think of classes like a Weaponsmith or Armorer (which I believe is what the OP was) - they have far fewer recipes, none of which (to my knowledge) is consumable.  Seeing as not everyone needs the items they make, the market gets flooded with their items they're making, and their options are to either (1) sell at little to no profit on the broker or (2) sell the item to the vendor for no profit, but instant coin back.  That's why I pointed out writs as a viable alternative.  Is it the best solution?  No - they definitely need more desirable items, and some form of consumables, but we wont be seeing that until at least RoK I'm sure. But subcombines aren't the answer - it's great to reminisce about the 'old days' and I miss it a bit too (it felt more rewarding finishing a product after making some straps, strips of leather, buckles... etc), but again I seriously doubt it'll go back to that ever again. That feeling is why I think the old system was better. Most of that feeling could have been kept whilst reducing the number of subcomines greatly, but it is too late now. But it is worth noting what was good about subcombines so as to try to bring that goodness back to some extent.Agreed - I think the change was pretty drastic as well, but we wont see the old system again.  Consequently, I'm not sure how you could add that same feeling back in without subcombines.   As others have suggested, every tradeskill class needs a desirable consumable (or two or three) in every tier. A desirable product, but not necessarily consumable. The better bloodlines spells did work for scholars. I have to disagree - I think each class needs products that are both desirable and consumable.  Provisioners are a perfect example - they have the market cornered.  You have very few alternatives to player-crafted food and drink (with the exception of some quests, and some 'rewards' like the Vodka and Cake if you /claim).  Players always need food and drink, unless they make some terrible game breaking decision in the future, so Provisioners will always have a market.Now look at Weaponsmiths.  Every character needs a weapon or two every tier.  Seeing as any weapons that are 'broken' don't need to be replaced because they can be repaired, a character will never need more than a few weapons in a particular tier (and I'll even ignore the fact that in the end-game, dropped/quested stuff is much better and then they don't need any).  So even if you made a non-consumable, uber-desirable weapon recipe for Weaponsmiths in every tier, you'll still have the same problem.  People will still only need that weapon for a particular tier, meaning 1 sale per character per tier.  And seeing as Legendary/Fabled stuff will always be better (as it should be, and no I'm not a hardcore raider by any means - check my toons equipment ), sales will continue to be lower.So until everyone has desirable consumables, some classes will just be less viable as others - subcombines or no. Classes with fewer recipes need more, so the endless "Sages can reach level 70 sooooo fast it's not fair *cry whine sob*" posts will cease. More recipes yes - but the posts would just be replaced by other whinesAgreed, lol Alternative XP sources should be introduced... but honestly, with the tradeskill writs, I don't really see how you could introduce 'new' quests - they're all going to ask you to craft, generally, the exact same thing. More quests would add more variety. The main problem with writs is how repetative they are.I agree.  My point is how can you make any 'new' quests?  Looking at non-scholars, you have a handful of recipes every level.  Whatever quests are implemented will have to utilize these recipes.  So after a certain point, the quests are going to start 'repeating'... One quest-giver asks you to make them X swords-of-uberness to help outfit the town milita.  Out in the field, a nomad asks you to make them X swords-of-uberness so they can better defend themselves.  It's the exact same quest, just a different location/name.  I honestly don't see how that would be any more fun or less repetitive - in fact, I think it would be more annoying as I'd have to actually travel back and forth from the crafting instance.  Writs may be repetitive, but they're convenient, and add as much variety as I can really see being added.The only other option I can see is doing more things like the Live Events when crafters were needed to help rebuild the Ulteran Spires (and I think we had to help with the Griffon Towers, I can't remember anymore).  But that leads to another problem - you'd need to add new recipes just for those events, that have no real use outside of the event itself.  Another option I'd seen presented a while back as I noted before was 'group' crafting, working to complete mini-events/scenarios, but again I'd see it running into a similar problem as the previous one.If you have suggestion though for your ideas of how to make writs less repetitive, and add more variety, throw them out there though!

[JackCrichton]

As someone who enjoys doing writs {rush writs and lots of them} here is my suggestion for a minor improvement that could be made to them.

Make the amount of guild status (and/or even the XP earned)  variable according to the time left when the writ is completed, as it stands now I rarely run out of time when doing even the most difficult writs {in my chosen trade}, by introducing a variable "reward" of GSP or XP there is a clear incentive to be had from working quickly.

No doubt this idea will be shot down by any number of people with clever arguments, but hey, it's just a suggestion.

Peace out and happy crafting. 

[LadyEternity]

I respect the OP opinion. They have a right to feel the way they do. However, I do not share the same feelings.

I've casually played this game on and off sense launch. All my character's craft. My first character got to level 30 sage the old way. It was a tedious grind. I hated every minute of it. It was like a chore....like doing dishes or cleaning my house. And it was sooooo boring. There were times when I actually had to have a wet cold washcloth by my keyboard to wipe my face with to stop from falling asleep. It just took so darn long to make a single scroll...nevermind level.

My armorsmith got to level 24 the old way. It was so uninspired, so unfun, so completely hohum. I had to work for hours just to create usable armor. It was a huge pain. And if ANYONE asked me to craft for them I pratically wanted to scream....and rip all my hair out. Hahaha. When anyone asked for any type of craftable I had to reaaaaaaalllyy like them to say yes :p It was like a job. And I don't know about you...but I pay to play to have a goodtime, not do chores.

I respect that alot of people enjoy having the 'work' in a game. Maybe they don't have enough to manage in real life, or maybe they just enjoy doing those kinds of things. I love crafting, I like making things. It's fun. However...I got no joy out of crafting sub's. First make the alchemy junk (1-2 hours), then process the wood into paper (1 hour), make the inks(1-2 hours), make the quills( 1 hour)....now you can finally make some scrolls. I'd really rather it not go back to that. Tradeskilling is one of the main reason I play really, and the revamp brought me back. If it went back to the way it was I would probably leave.

Blacksabath

[Branelan]

LadyEternity wrote:

I respect the OP opinion. They have a right to feel the way they do. However, I do not share the same feelings.

I've casually played this game on and off sense launch. All my character's craft. My first character got to level 30 sage the old way. It was a tedious grind. I hated every minute of it. It was like a chore....like doing dishes or cleaning my house. And it was sooooo boring. There were times when I actually had to have a wet cold washcloth by my keyboard to wipe my face with to stop from falling asleep. It just took so darn long to make a single scroll...nevermind level.

My armorsmith got to level 24 the old way. It was so uninspired, so unfun, so completely hohum. I had to work for hours just to create usable armor. It was a huge pain. And if ANYONE asked me to craft for them I pratically wanted to scream....and rip all my hair out. Hahaha. When anyone asked for any type of craftable I had to reaaaaaaalllyy like them to say yes :p It was like a job. And I don't know about you...but I pay to play to have a goodtime, not do chores.

I respect that alot of people enjoy having the 'work' in a game. Maybe they don't have enough to manage in real life, or maybe they just enjoy doing those kinds of things. I love crafting, I like making things. It's fun. However...I got no joy out of crafting sub's. First make the alchemy junk (1-2 hours), then process the wood into paper (1 hour), make the inks(1-2 hours), make the quills( 1 hour)....now you can finally make some scrolls. I'd really rather it not go back to that. Tradeskilling is one of the main reason I play really, and the revamp brought me back. If it went back to the way it was I would probably leave.

Blacksabath

QFE

[ke'la]

zaneluke wrote:

Homebrewer wrote:

Forgive me but I'm still a little bitter.  I refer to the crafting changes that made everything a single combine.  Back in the day you had to craft all these intermediate components to make the final item.  Sure it was more tedious and sometimes a PITA but it worked and made sense.  It was clear that the people developing the crafting system had put a lot of thought into this.  It also meant that there was much less competition and that you got good compensation for the time you spent crafting.  Now days with single combines and tradeskill XP for doing writs (which is an insane amount) everybody and their brother has a crafter.  It used to mean something if you were maxed out as a crafter, now it means nothing. 

Hey DEVS, are you listening?  Fix the crafting system so it's not so [I cannot control my vocabulary] easy.  Bring back the system of multiple combines.  Make crafting mean something once again.  Sure I spend less time crafting and more time adventuring but so what?  I want crafting to mean something, not just something you can level up on over a weekend.

Thanks for listening.

Just in case in your anger you did not notice.The game is dying. From when the gamed launched to now they have tried hard to make it like WOW. Ok im sorry for all of you that just got angry. Its true and you know it. From the little "fetahers and books" over the quest people, to the simple craft system. LON anyone? Server merge? Look, this is a game people want to have fun, you are a small small small minority that wants a hard game.  Truth be told, people play these games to relax.The game was made easy.And with more crafters = less need for obscene amounts of plat = less farmers.Simple math

A) the game is not dieing infact while its currently very slowly(mainly because there is an expaintion in a few weeks) growing

B) once again ANYTHING you point to and say it makes it "Like WoW" I can point to another game, many made by SoE, in wich it was done first.

C) How does adding in a differant form of /gems in LoN prove anything about the game going down hill.

D) Um Server Merge? the last time there was a server merge(other then ONE PvP server in Europe that never took off) was nearly 2 years ago.

[ke'la]

VladisSar wrote:

Condar Tarsonia , i see your logic and your words are wise.

I just wish that something could be done so some classes don't have to flood the broker with items no one need, just to level up. I wish that every crafted item has value and purpose and be wanted by others. Otherwise - what are we crafting for, besides personal enjoyment?

In regards to my Sage and Armorer - Honestly - I don't want more recepies - I want my products to be desireable - then i won't have a problem making more of the same thing. My sage is not any happier than my armorer - all the Apr4 I am making most of them time go to the vendor - so LOTS of recepies not realy a solution to anything. Desireability is.

Speaking of armor and weapon cretaion - I offered this long ago. Let crafter create a BASIC item, and then using additional recepies to "augment" it with specific stats.

For example I will craft a Fayiron Bresplate (no stats). Then I can use some combination of gems/metals/whatever to add SPECIFIC stats to it. I don't want predesigned +4 str +4 wis armor,  want +8 sta one. Same can be done with weapons

You really should take a look at SWGs crafting system(atleast pre-NGE don't know how it is now), but personally I think a version of that would be really good for EQ2. It had sub-combines but you could batch them(in a factory), and most of them altered the base product in some way, not only that but your Skills in Experimentation had a direct effect on how good a partcular iteam was, it accually made it so that you could tell the good crafters from the bad ones. Granted they could not do a system as complex as that with out a HUGE revamp of more or less the entire game, but adding in the ablity to augment the base stats of an iteam(and having those augmentations cost the quality of the iteam in some other area) would be good and I would suport that, but just making a Preliminary iteam in order to make  a Preliminary iteam of a Preliminary iteam to a sub-combine of a final product was just tidius and IMO basicly the same thing as standing at Twin Tears in SS and killing one dynamic spawn point of lizzardmen over and over.

[Spyderbite]

VladisSar wrote:

And playing game to relax - is nonesence. We playing to entertain ourself. And defeating a chalange - thats where the MOST entertaiment is. Its same like in sports - you get the most satisfaction when you beat realy strong opposition.

Untrue. If this were true of the player base, we'd all be elbow to elbow in my trade skill instance on Venekor and the PvE servers would have whithered up and vanished.Today's new generation of gamers want instant gratification with little or no risk/effort. Unfortunately, those of us who enjoy a challenge feel the trickle down as games are modified over the years to accommodate the entire player base.I enjoy the TS system the way it is now because I've found other ways to challenge myself instead. Come join me during prime time while I harvest in popular zones on a PvP server if you're not sure what I mean.

[Vonotar]

1. No return to subcombines etc!If you want to return to cross-dependancy, level a few tradeskillers (including a transmuter and a tinkerer) and start making gear with adornments2. Tradeskill and Adventure Loot are balanced!Please remember that the highest level of tradeskilled clothing that can be created are level 62 mastercrafted.Naturally these will not compare with level 68+ legendary or fabled.This is end game, if you could tradeskill compariable stuff there would be nobody in raid instances!Wait for RoK to come out and you'll see everybody clammering for 72 mastercrafted (at least those not full fabled).

[Terron]

Condar Tarsonia wrote:

Terron@Splitpaw wrote:

Condar Tarsonia wrote:

To reiterate, I seriously doubt we'll ever see subcombines again, Subcombines in then sense of combines you have to do to make ingredients for the final combine still exist in at least 2 ways - imbued items need a normal item as a sub combine and the Wyrmslayer HQ is done in several steps.I wouldn't consider imbued weapons a source of subcombines though, but I guess it depends on how you're defining subcombines.  When I think back to what they were, a subcombine was an item that had no use other than to make a final product. When my jeweler makes a ring the only purpose I have for it is to imbue it.   Making imbued items was sort of tacked on, so it used a final product in addition to something else to make it better.   This is similar to the idea VladisSar posted, in that other items could be used to improve an item further through crafting.  I would much rather have seen a system like this than the current adornment system, but it's too late for that I suppose.As to the Wurmslayer HQ, I haven't done it, so I'll give you that one I am leaving the final combine till after the RoK release as my guild is currently maxed. The point is that multi-step crafting still exists in the creation of high quality items and thus could be expanded on. [snip]I don't necessarily find either form of leveling more 'interesting' as I'm still doing the same thing/process.  I agree, my arrows and totems sell like hotcakes (although it may have something to do with me pricing them very low), but it's no more interesting to me - I still make a profit doing writs.  I agree making arrows and totems would be easily more profitable than doing writs, but I'm one of those people who likes to level quickly to make 'high-end' stuff.  Is this the best way?  No, but it's what *I* like to do - others like to take their time and make more profit along the way.  But by doing writs I can pretty much guarantee I'll level up faster, which is what I personally want.  So complaining that there is a flood of items on the market and no way to make a profit/good experience is poor, because writs are an easy solution to that problem (although I agree it's not the best, but you have to make do with what you have). Yes writs are the quickest way to level up whilst making a small profit, and work for some people.I also want to point out that this is really only true for certain classes as you noted, like Woodworkers and Provisioners.  Think of classes like a Weaponsmith or Armorer (which I believe is what the OP was) - they have far fewer recipes, none of which (to my knowledge) is consumable. That is not correct. According to Domino the outfitter classes have more recipes than craftsmen. Though they do lack consumables.   Seeing as not everyone needs the items they make, the market gets flooded with their items they're making, and their options are to either (1) sell at little to no profit on the broker or (2) sell the item to the vendor for no profit, but instant coin back.  That's why I pointed out writs as a viable alternative.  Is it the best solution?  No - they definitely need more desirable items, and some form of consumables, but we wont be seeing that until at least RoK I'm sure. [snip] That feeling is why I think the old system was better. Most of that feeling could have been kept whilst reducing the number of subcomines greatly, but it is too late now. But it is worth noting what was good about subcombines so as to try to bring that goodness back to some extent.Agreed - I think the change was pretty drastic as well, but we wont see the old system again.  Consequently, I'm not sure how you could add that same feeling back in without subcombines. The use of multi-step crafting for high quaility items would be one way.   As others have suggested, every tradeskill class needs a desirable consumable (or two or three) in every tier. A desirable product, but not necessarily consumable. The better bloodlines spells did work for scholars. I have to disagree - I think each class needs products that are both desirable and consumable.  Provisioners are a perfect example - they have the market cornered.  You have very few alternatives to player-crafted food and drink (with the exception of some quests, and some 'rewards' like the Vodka and Cake if you /claim).  Players always need food and drink, unless they make some terrible game breaking decision in the future, so Provisioners will always have a market. An example does not prove a generality, but a counter-example can disprove one. Jewelers do not need a consumable. They have desirable products, some of which sell in sufficient quantity to provide a decent income. Specifically, for some classes imbued strength rings are about the best in the game. Also many toons when they get near 70 buy a set of common resistance jewelry (15 pieces) to be ready to start raiding. Now look at Weaponsmiths.  Every character needs a weapon or two every tier.  Seeing as any weapons that are 'broken' don't need to be replaced because they can be repaired, a character will never need more than a few weapons in a particular tier (and I'll even ignore the fact that in the end-game, dropped/quested stuff is much better and then they don't need any).  So even if you made a non-consumable, uber-desirable weapon recipe for Weaponsmiths in every tier, you'll still have the same problem.  People will still only need that weapon for a particular tier, meaning 1 sale per character per tier.  And seeing as Legendary/Fabled stuff will always be better (as it should be, and no I'm not a hardcore raider by any means - check my toons equipment ), sales will continue to be lower. Removing all legendary and fabled weapons would make weaponsmiths viable without giving them a consumable. That would be very bad of course, and they should get throwing weapons back from woodworkers, or at least share them which seemed to be Domino's preference. [snip] Alternative XP sources should be introduced... but honestly, with the tradeskill writs, I don't really see how you could introduce 'new' quests - they're all going to ask you to craft, generally, the exact same thing. More quests would add more variety. The main problem with writs is how repetative they are.I agree.  My point is how can you make any 'new' quests?  Looking at non-scholars, you have a handful of recipes every level.  Whatever quests are implemented will have to utilize these recipes.  So after a certain point, the quests are going to start 'repeating'... One quest-giver asks you to make them X swords-of-uberness to help outfit the town milita.  Out in the field, a nomad asks you to make them X swords-of-uberness so they can better defend themselves.  It's the exact same quest, just a different location/name.  I honestly don't see how that would be any more fun or less repetitive - in fact, I think it would be more annoying as I'd have to actually travel back and forth from the crafting instance.  Writs may be repetitive, but they're convenient, and add as much variety as I can really see being added. Maybe less convenient but certainly more fun. Do you think adventuring writs are too inconvenient because you have to travel to do them. The only other option I can see is doing more things like the Live Events when crafters were needed to help rebuild the Ulteran Spires (and I think we had to help with the Griffon Towers, I can't remember anymore). We did. The spires would have been good if the quests had awarded extra crafting xp (like writs do now), required a significant level of crafting skill, and not given the main rewards to the raiders who turned up after the hard slog was over. (Though my guild both mainly built one spire and killed the dragon, so sometimes the right people were rewarded). I was dissappointed that we did not get to build the BB griffin towers. But that leads to another problem - you'd need to add new recipes just for those events, that have no real use outside of the event itself. I don't see that as a significant problem.   Another option I'd seen presented a while back as I noted before was 'group' crafting, working to complete mini-events/scenarios, but again I'd see it running into a similar problem as the previous one. If you have suggestion though for your ideas of how to make writs less repetitive, and add more variety, throw them out there though! Writs - no, crafting quests  -  already done in several threads,  

Some crafting quests ideas:

• Go harvest a bunch of stuff and then make something and get a recipe book as a reward - already in the game.
• Go harvest some special items,and maybe craft something and get some useful items in return - already in the game.
• Go crafted some items and then deliver them - already in the game as and adventuring quest.
• Speak to a master about crafting something, make up the recipe provided at a special location, return to master and be given the recipe for the next stage. gather ingredients and repeat - already in the game as an adventuring quest (with raids required to get some ingredients).
• Go prove yourself to a master perhaps by something like a timed writ, or crafting a master crafted item, and be taught their secret recipes in return.

[Calthine]

Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote:

1. No return to subcombines etc!If you want to return to cross-dependancy, level a few tradeskillers (including a transmuter and a tinkerer) and start making gear with adornments2. Tradeskill and Adventure Loot are balanced!Please remember that the highest level of tradeskilled clothing that can be created are level 62 mastercrafted.

Without disagreeing with your point, you're wrong about that lvl 62 mastercrafted part.  Linky.

[Deson]

Calthine wrote:

Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote:

1. No return to subcombines etc!If you want to return to cross-dependancy, level a few tradeskillers (including a transmuter and a tinkerer) and start making gear with adornments2. Tradeskill and Adventure Loot are balanced!Please remember that the highest level of tradeskilled clothing that can be created are level 62 mastercrafted.

Without disagreeing with your point, you're wrong about that lvl 62 mastercrafted part.  Linky.

I'll partially disagree with his second point but not only have we beaten it to death in almost 2 years, there is a new dev, a new dev team philosophy and RoK launches in less than a month so the point is about to be moot (at least I hope so).

[Terron]

Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote:

2. Tradeskill and Adventure Loot are balanced! Not all of it is. Please remember that the highest level of tradeskilled clothing that can be created are level 62 mastercrafted.Naturally these will not compare with level 68+ legendary or fabled. Level 60 legendary armour is better than level 62 mastercrafted, though often harder to obtain. This is end game, if you could tradeskill compariable stuff there would be nobody in raid instances! There would still be those of us who raid to get quests done, rather than for loot. Wait for RoK to come out and you'll see everybody clammering for 72 mastercrafted (at least those not full fabled).That  will help armourers quite a lot for a while, but probably not weaponsmiths since it is so easy to get a T7 legendary or fabled weapon which going by past tiers will be better than any T8 mastercrafted weapon. I have doubts whether it will be better than the level 67/68 legendary I have in a couple of slots.

[Kenazeer]

I liked the old system better from a satisfaction standpoint, but I understand why they made the changes they did.

The new system served two main purposes in my mind. It made crafting more accessible and also eased the development requirements. This change resulted in more player hours per unit of dev time. As I said I like the old system better, but if the changes were required to keep crafting "vital," then so be it.

I still enjoy crafting by the way, even though I don't get as much "satisfaction" from it.

[Gorhauth]

a1will wrote:

Provisioner, alchemist, sage, and jeweler is by far the easiest classes. You get plenty of recipes per lvl.

I think you missed the posts saying Provs have one of the fewest recipes... Domino stated it was less than half of what Woodworkers get.

[zaneluke]

ke'la wrote:

zaneluke wrote:

Just in case in your anger you did not notice.The game is dying. From when the gamed launched to now they have tried hard to make it like WOW. Ok im sorry for all of you that just got angry. Its true and you know it. From the little "fetahers and books" over the quest people, to the simple craft system. LON anyone? Server merge? Look, this is a game people want to have fun, you are a small small small minority that wants a hard game.  Truth be told, people play these games to relax.The game was made easy.And with more crafters = less need for obscene amounts of plat = less farmers.Simple math

A) the game is not dieing infact while its currently very slowly(mainly because there is an expaintion in a few weeks) growing

B) once again ANYTHING you point to and say it makes it "Like WoW" I can point to another game, many made by SoE, in wich it was done first.

C) How does adding in a differant form of /gems in LoN prove anything about the game going down hill.

D) Um Server Merge? the last time there was a server merge(other then ONE PvP server in Europe that never took off) was nearly 2 years ago.

A) The game will see an increase in player base when the expansion comes out. I agree. But when you log into the game and there are less than 10 people in any given zone during prime time you have low population issues. SOE has to do something to up the player base, or this game will just turn into another EQ1. A very exclusive game with a small die hard fan base. B) I played two tons to max level in EQ2 , went to WOW and did the same there. Came back to EQ2 and was blown away. Quest indicators,removed access quests,revamped broker,revamped crafting.... the game was made simpler just    like   wow. Do you not think SOE had people trying to catch what was attracting 10x as many people to wow????? please. I bet there were and still are focus groups trying to figure out why wow has 10x the player base. C) If you can not see right away what the huge issue is with putting a card game smack dab in the middle of an RPG.........D) Ill bet ya some plat that before end 2008 you have either #1 a HUGE resurgence of players or another server merge.

[Jushara]

Please! bring back sub-combines. after stumbling on an old tradeskilling guide. I am appalled by the new system! i came here "to eq2" from World of Warcraft, because i sought complexity. WoW is far too simple and shallow for me, and that was EQ2's appeal. Complexity!after reading about the old crafting system. i have a  deep craving, to see it returned to the game. the idea of a more deep and rewarding, system makes me almost giddy. here are some of the advantages i see in bringing back the old crafting system. Advantages 1."depth'  the sub-combine system is deep and requires lots of thought. unlike the super simple. and IMO boring current system2. "value"it would bring some normalcy to the game economy, right now, even decent items sell for MUCH less than the sum of their parts. as much a 75% less then the mats that are used in their creation.3."uniqueness" no other game, except maybe vanguard. has a Really complex crafting system. if you can even count the laggy grind fest that is vanguard, as a game. adding a complex crafting system, will further set EQ2 away from the pack, becoming truly unique, and fun. making the game simpler or more like anything else is the WORST idea possible. think coke making their soda more like Pepsi, Pepsi was popular. but coke was unique. right now, its time to go back to coke classic " /> , however. that applys ONLY to crafting at this point, the combat system should not be restored to its original form. its fun now. it wasn't at release. the opposite of crafting, which was fun at release. and boring now4. "sanity" their are SO many inconsistencys in the crafting system, it feels cheap, and wrong. it feels like someone who had NO idea of how blacksmithing works designed the system. for one, bronze is an alloy of tin and copper. it SHOULD be that way in the game. steel is a compound. incredibly rarely found naturally, and is made by adding carbon to iron. im not saying make the game, super realistic, its a game, and it should feel that way. but why punish those who know something about each trade? making a bronze sword out of Tin and copper, makes sense. mining bronze. dosent. for example.now, warcraft is a boring game in general, compared to EQ2. BUT, the feeling of making a Bronze chest plate, by first combining tin and copper into a bronze bar, though it was an extra step, it made sense. infact, you could guess the ingredents of a recipe if you read a chemistry text-book with a metal alloy section.5."reward" with more complexity, items could be added that where more advanced, perhaps even fabled quility? right now. crafting feels tacked on, for good measure. the actual crafting part feels right. but the fact that EVERY item uses almost the same components. feels cheap and broken.  right now. really powerful recipes Can't be added to the game, because its just too simple to make them. special recipes. for components And final items are needed. making crafting a REAL part of the game. now, im not saying make it its own class! like SWG, but make it worth while.6. "Fun" while a complex crafting isnt right for everyone, nither is the current system. ive seen level 70 with level 1 artisan. dont simplify the crafting the try to appeal to the non-crafter. because you will make the crafters angry, and still probly wont convince the non-crafter DisadvantagesYes.unfortunately, every rose has its thorns.1. "not for everyone" its true, crafting isnt for everyone, but still. dont try to convert non-crafters by destroying a near perfect system. make the system more fun, not watered down. make it more appealing to non crafters by making it fun, and intriguing. not simple and boring2. "time" a sub-combine system makes crafting a uber set of armor in 10 miniuts almost impossable. and many people use crafting as an escape from the grinding, but right now. crafting is a grind in its self. with no really cool elements. nothing that makes me say WOW! i want to keep crafting, because this is cool.3. "revolt" right now, people are getting used to the new system, IMO thats not a good thing. changing it back may make some angry with a new system, but have people get used to a good system, and if you dont like it, go back to warcraft. and i guarantee you. more people will convert, because they want a more complex game then, warcraft, or others. have to offer, than leave because you made the crafting system more complected. right now. almost noone is here because EQ2 has a great crafting system. and i will bet that almost noone will leave if it changes, as long as it gets BETTER! i will bet,many more people will leave if it becomes simpler than, will leave if it becomes more complex..Over all, if you agree that it should be more complex, do what VladisSar intelligently did, put it in you signature " />it will be in mine till the system is fixed, thank you for you time, any new content i add will be in {} spelling fixes, will be hidden, :pPeople say, "how can you be bitter about something that changed over a year ago, in LU24" I say "Im bitter about it and i wasnt here before lu24" :pSave Crafting/trade skilling: bring back the sub-combines, and complexity!

[VladisSar]

zaneluke wrote:

B) I played two tons to max level in EQ2 , went to WOW and did the same there. Came back to EQ2 and was blown away. Quest indicators,removed access quests,revamped broker,revamped crafting.... the game was made simpler just    like   wow. Do you not think SOE had people trying to catch what was attracting 10x as many people to wow????? please. I bet there were and still are focus groups trying to figure out why wow has 10x the player base.

on a subject of WoW uberness:

My good RL friend fi a die-hard WoW fan, from day one.

I spend 2 years tryign to convice him to join eq2 (we played eq1 together) - but stil with WoW.

What is most funy, that the this die-hard wow fan only log in TWICE a week for about 2 hours to raid with his guild...

He never logs in otherwise. There is absolutly NOTHING in game to keep him playing "just for fun", not solo, not grouping. He don't even won't to start an alt - cuase he seen everythign, been everywhere.

And this hasnt happened just now - this been going on for last years

Now speaking of actual numbers:

The US/Europe player base of WoW is 1.7 million vs eq2 450k - thats hardly 10x times dffirence.

The WoW which is run in Asia, wher most players play of "shards" - non official (free) servers is about 6 mln.

But gues what - Eq2 is not avaiable in asia at all - and mayby it woudl have player base of 50millions if it would be avilable.

So we arriving at is that legit WoW population in equaly covered area is only 4 times bigger that eq2.

Given highly limited WoW play content - i simply feel sorry for those kids

[VladisSar]

A very good observation Minoru!

The original crafting was prety close to that of a raiding - people with dedication and effort to learn all the tricks and perks- were highly rewarded (and unlike raiding you did not had the penalty of forcefuly staying in lace for hours till raid ends- you can amke 1 item and go something else). Those who could not put together why raw ore convets into iron bar - went on their way farming plat wihotu ever lookign back.

When devs decided that "OMG! So many people can't craft! Lets make it easy!" - they effectivly ruined it for thsoe people who COULD craft. Why I liked old style crafting? Cause it was smular to raiding - raiding is not for everyone, neither was crafting - and IMHO - it was good.

So fine - you made crafting for EVERYONE - hurray! - now where 5% of players used to craft and had huge benefit to themselves, now 99% of the people can craft - with almost no benefit at all for ANYONE.

Crafted armor and weapons are nothing but a filler.

3 days ago i started a new alt- a brigand. When she hit 10 I gave her full suit of iron chain and weapons.

Guess how long they served me? 2 hours after I went playing - both my weapons and half of the armor were replaced by far superior quest reward gear. And those are NEWBEE quests!

By lev 14 - my entire crafted was gone comlitly.

I wonder why I even bothered preparing that set for my alt which become obsolite 4 hours later

Here is a Mastercrafted sme will say!!! yes there is!.. And chances of geting mastercrafted for free (mining yourself) are FAR WORSE than geting 3-4 people together and going after a heroic named. And gues what - the Legendary still better.

On a point of carbon+iron=steel...

/sigh I been saing that since day one

the reply i got was "this a magical world!!! Bronze is a naturaly occuring metal!"

[Condar Tarsonia]

Subcombines in then sense of combines you have to do to make ingredients for the final combine still exist in at least 2 ways - imbued items need a normal item as a sub combine and the Wyrmslayer HQ is done in several steps.I wouldn't consider imbued weapons a source of subcombines though, but I guess it depends on how you're defining subcombines.  When I think back to what they were, a subcombine was an item that had no use other than to make a final product. When my jeweler makes a ring the only purpose I have for it is to imbue it.That still doesn't make it a true subcombine as they were in their original form, which was my point.  Before it's imbued, the ring is still a 'final product' and does not require it be imbued to be used.  Is it useful in its unimbued state?  Maybe to some... but that still doesn't make it a subcombine as I defined it, which is how subcombines that people are referring to were.  I think we can agree on that point?   Making imbued items was sort of tacked on, so it used a final product in addition to something else to make it better.   This is similar to the idea VladisSar posted, in that other items could be used to improve an item further through crafting.  I would much rather have seen a system like this than the current adornment system, but it's too late for that I suppose.As to the Wurmslayer HQ, I haven't done it, so I'll give you that one I am leaving the final combine till after the RoK release as my guild is currently maxed. The point is that multi-step crafting still exists in the creation of high quality items and thus could be expanded on. I agree in the sense that multi-step crafting still exists - thinking on it, when I last did PGT HQ, you had to craft a dull tomahawk at one point.  There still was no subcombine process though.  It seems you are talking about a different process for Wurmslayer, though, in which it still uses 'subcombines' in some form.  If that's the case, sure, I wouldn't mind a few recipes that have a higher quality that require more steps.  But for general crafting, the subcombine process was tedious, complicated, and cumbersome for presumably the majority of the player-base which is why it was presumably changed in the first place. [snip]I don't necessarily find either form of leveling more 'interesting' as I'm still doing the same thing/process.  I agree, my arrows and totems sell like hotcakes (although it may have something to do with me pricing them very low), but it's no more interesting to me - I still make a profit doing writs.  I agree making arrows and totems would be easily more profitable than doing writs, but I'm one of those people who likes to level quickly to make 'high-end' stuff.  Is this the best way?  No, but it's what *I* like to do - others like to take their time and make more profit along the way.  But by doing writs I can pretty much guarantee I'll level up faster, which is what I personally want.  So complaining that there is a flood of items on the market and no way to make a profit/good experience is poor, because writs are an easy solution to that problem (although I agree it's not the best, but you have to make do with what you have). Yes writs are the quickest way to level up whilst making a small profit, and work for some people.I also want to point out that this is really only true for certain classes as you noted, like Woodworkers and Provisioners.  Think of classes like a Weaponsmith or Armorer (which I believe is what the OP was) - they have far fewer recipes, none of which (to my knowledge) is consumable. That is not correct. According to Domino the outfitter classes have more recipes than craftsmen. Though they do lack consumables. Looking back at a chart I made up recently that lists the number of raws in every common recipe for every class in T3, I tallied the number of recipes for each of the outfitter and craftsmen classes.  Outfitter came out with 111, Craftsmen came out with 108, so technically you are correct.  To break it down further:Tailor = 52Armorer = 34Weapon = 25Carpenter = 50Provisioner = 34Woodworker = 24But, with a lot of recent love to the carpenters, the numbers may be equal or Craftsmen may be higher.   Either way, it actually appears  that the classes are all relatively equal in terms of number of recipes, so my initial assumption and assertion was incorrect (except the consumable part).  Point given   Seeing as not everyone needs the items they make, the market gets flooded with their items they're making, and their options are to either (1) sell at little to no profit on the broker or (2) sell the item to the vendor for no profit, but instant coin back.  That's why I pointed out writs as a viable alternative.  Is it the best solution?  No - they definitely need more desirable items, and some form of consumables, but we wont be seeing that until at least RoK I'm sure. [snip]That feeling is why I think the old system was better. Most of that feeling could have been kept whilst reducing the number of subcomines greatly, but it is too late now. But it is worth noting what was good about subcombines so as to try to bring that goodness back to some extent.Agreed - I think the change was pretty drastic as well, but we wont see the old system again.  Consequently, I'm not sure how you could add that same feeling back in without subcombines. The use of multi-step crafting for high quaility items would be one way. Can you explain what you mean by the difference between "multi-step crafting" and subcombines?  Earlier in your post, you noted, "When my jeweler makes a ring the only purpose I have for it is to imbue it" as an example of that being a subcombine, which as also noted previously, I do not agree with.  If instead this is what you mean by multi-step crafting, I don't agree that this brings back the same 'feeling' we were talking about - do you feel like you have accomplished any more after imbuing a particular ring than when you first made the ring itself?   As others have suggested, every tradeskill class needs a desirable consumable (or two or three) in every tier.A desirable product, but not necessarily consumable. The better bloodlines spells did work for scholars. I have to disagree - I think each class needs products that are both desirable and consumable.  Provisioners are a perfect example - they have the market cornered.  You have very few alternatives to player-crafted food and drink (with the exception of some quests, and some 'rewards' like the Vodka and Cake if you /claim).  Players always need food and drink, unless they make some terrible game breaking decision in the future, so Provisioners will always have a market. An example does not prove a generality, but a counter-example can disprove one. Jewelers do not need a consumable. They have desirable products, some of which sell in sufficient quantity to provide a decent income. Specifically, for some classes imbued strength rings are about the best in the game. Also many toons when they get near 70 buy a set of common resistance jewelry (15 pieces) to be ready to start raiding. Agreed - but in reference to the bloodlines spells note, didn't you use an example to attempt to prove the general point you were trying to make? Regardless, I stand firm on the point that every class needs a desirable consumable.  I think of it like this - if you can make some permanent gear for people, eventually you run out of people who need that gear, as everyone already has the item(s) in question, or better.  With a consumable, the item is always needed, and cannot be replaced with something better (or if it can, not permanently).  Consequently, those with consumables always have a market - even if it means less profit per item.  Of course, I'll concede the point that new players or alternate characters are being raised and will need those permanent items as well, so a market is still there, but you have to admit it will be smaller.If you still wont concede the 'generality' then you must agree that most classes need some form of consumable - look at Sages.  They have undeniably the most recipes in the game, and can hit level 70 with ease.  At the same time, they have really no market (in my opinion) - Apprentice 4's do not sell, except in some of the lower tiers because transmuters are gobbling up the Adept 1's, and because they're so easy to level, many people seem to have Sages.  If someone doesn't, they most likely know several - I have a 70 Sage, and can name 5 others on my server that I know personally that would make me Adept 3's at nothing more than fuel costs.  So while Adept 3's are desirable, there are so many that are able to make them, no money can be made off of them.  Adding in a consumable of some sort would give them something to make that gives them a constant market.So while it's only an example (or a counter-example), similar arguments can be made for every tradeskill class lacking a desirable consumable - it would simply take way too much time and space to list every one of them.Now look at Weaponsmiths.  Every character needs a weapon or two every tier.  Seeing as any weapons that are 'broken' don't need to be replaced because they can be repaired, a character will never need more than a few weapons in a particular tier (and I'll even ignore the fact that in the end-game, dropped/quested stuff is much better and then they don't need any).  So even if you made a non-consumable, uber-desirable weapon recipe for Weaponsmiths in every tier, you'll still have the same problem.  People will still only need that weapon for a particular tier, meaning 1 sale per character per tier.  And seeing as Legendary/Fabled stuff will always be better (as it should be, and no I'm not a hardcore raider by any means - check my toons equipment ), sales will continue to be lower. Removing all legendary and fabled weapons would make weaponsmiths viable without giving them a consumable. That would be very bad of course, and they should get throwing weapons back from woodworkers, or at least share them which seemed to be Domino's preference. You're right - removing all dropped/quested gear and items would make all tradeskill classes viable without giving them consumables, but I didn't feel the need to point out possibilities that will never happen.  I feel at this point you're just being argumentative.In regards to giving back throwing weapons to weaponsmiths, I think that's a fine suggestion - but then don't you need to make up for the recipes you just took away?  Although I wouldn't be sad to see them go, as they're not very big sellers, but that's basically an entire levels worth of recipes.[snip] Alternative XP sources should be introduced... but honestly, with the tradeskill writs, I don't really see how you could introduce 'new' quests - they're all going to ask you to craft, generally, the exact same thing.More quests would add more variety. The main problem with writs is how repetative they are.I agree.  My point is how can you make any 'new' quests?  Looking at non-scholars, you have a handful of recipes every level.  Whatever quests are implemented will have to utilize these recipes.  So after a certain point, the quests are going to start 'repeating'... One quest-giver asks you to make them X swords-of-uberness to help outfit the town milita.  Out in the field, a nomad asks you to make them X swords-of-uberness so they can better defend themselves.  It's the exact same quest, just a different location/name.  I honestly don't see how that would be any more fun or less repetitive - in fact, I think it would be more annoying as I'd have to actually travel back and forth from the crafting instance.  Writs may be repetitive, but they're convenient, and add as much variety as I can really see being added. Maybe less convenient but certainly more fun. Do you think adventuring writs are too inconvenient because you have to travel to do them. No, because adventuring and crafting are inherently different.  I expect to have to travel and see new places as an "adventurer" - it's in the job description.  When the game was first being advertised (and I suppose even now), it was noted that tradeskillers would be able to level up from 1-70 without having to be an adventurer.  So sure, add in quests that require a crafter to delve into the depths of a dungeon or an extremely hostile area - but then you're essentially forcing them to be an adventurer.Irregardless, that does not explain how it makes the quests any more 'fun' - you are still making the exact same objects for different people.  The only way you can compare this to adventuring is if every quest giver asked you to kill the exact same mob throughout a particular tier/level.  Since they don't (although some quests may ask you to kill some of the same mobs in different steps), I fail to see the point. The only other option I can see is doing more things like the Live Events when crafters were needed to help rebuild the Ulteran Spires (and I think we had to help with the Griffon Towers, I can't remember anymore). We did. The spires would have been good if the quests had awarded extra crafting xp (like writs do now), required a significant level of crafting skill, and not given the main rewards to the raiders who turned up after the hard slog was over. (Though my guild both mainly built one spire and killed the dragon, so sometimes the right people were rewarded). I was dissappointed that we did not get to build the BB griffin towers. I agree that a better reward should have been given to tradeskillers, and also would love to see more events like this done, aside from the problems noted previously - which will also be addressed in the next point. But that leads to another problem - you'd need to add new recipes just for those events, that have no real use outside of the event itself. I don't see that as a significant problem. It's not a problem in the user's sense - more recipes for the win!  The problem, which has been noted in the past (and part of the reason we're losing non-pristine products) is that the extra recipes take up space in the database.  It's a lot of extra work and wasted space for stuff that only has a single use in the lifetime of the game.  Now instead what I could see being done is make these extra recipes very generic, so that they can be reused in future events, such as Woodworkers or Carpenters making 'lumbered' wood for a particular tier, support struts, what-have-you.  That way only a few recipes per tier would need to be added, and they could be reused through many live events.  In addition, a lot of the items that I could come up with were originally the subcombines we miss, and would be a way to bring them back in a different form.   Another option I'd seen presented a while back as I noted before was 'group' crafting, working to complete mini-events/scenarios, but again I'd see it running into a similar problem as the previous one.If you have suggestion though for your ideas of how to make writs less repetitive, and add more variety, throw them out there though! Writs - no, crafting quests  -  already done in several threads,I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Are you simply pointing out my wrong choice of words - writ instead of "crafting quest"?(Second post coming... sorry, stupid limits and I TRIED removing formatting... but color makes the world go round.)Edit: Ok that was TOO much color - changed all the old blue/yellow quotes from previous posts (me and Terron) to black to get rid of the seizure-inducing changes...

[Condar Tarsonia]

Some crafting quests ideas:

• Go harvest a bunch of stuff and then make something and get a recipe book as a reward - already in the game.  And it helped a very large problem with price gouging on some of those 28/29 books that were unobtainable by some otherwise.  I'd love to see more quests like this.
• Go harvest some special items,and maybe craft something and get some useful items in return - already in the game.  Example?  Do you mean like PGT?
• Go crafted some items and then deliver them - already in the game as and adventuring quest.  I assume you mean like the EL "fund raiser" quests?  The only one I ever see used is Hopple's Apple Pie, but still would be a worthwhile addition/type of quest in the future.
• Speak to a master about crafting something, make up the recipe provided at a special location, return to master and be given the recipe for the next stage. gather ingredients and repeat - already in the game as an adventuring quest (with raids required to get some ingredients).
• Go prove yourself to a master perhaps by something like a timed writ, or crafting a master crafted item, and be taught their secret recipes in return.  I like this one, but the problem I see with it is it would then be a 'required' quest for those crafters.  And then everyone is still making the same items.  But building off of this, why not instead offer a choice of recipes and not make the quest repeatable (unlike the ones in Nest of the Great Egg)?  Then each crafter has their own 'unique' recipes for some particular 'type' of items.  As an example, weaponsmiths would have a choice between recipes for slashing weapons, piercing weapons, and crushing weapons.  They could choose only one, and thus be a 'specialist' with a particular type of weapon, having 'secret' recipes of a higher quality for that particular weapon type.  Other tradeskill classes would have similar choices.  If you wanted, you could even further specialize the recipes - instead of all slashing weapons, make it 'just swords' or 'just axes.' It could add some uniqueness/variety to crafters.

Finally, to end ( and in no way related to Terron), can we not derail the thread with "OmgZ this game has changed to be so much like WOW" posts?  I, for one, could care nothing about what WoW is like, what they've done similar to EQ2 and vice-versa, and it has no relevance anyway.  ALL games borrow from other games in some form or another, just like literature, movies, music... you get the idea.  I remember the very first MMORPG I played - The Realm (http://www.realmserver.com/).  Guess what?  It had a simple crafting system where you gathered items, used a tool, and made an item.  OMG - Sierra (or Codemasters, or whoever owns it now) should TOTALLY be all over Blizzard for stealing their ideas/concepts from the 90s!!!111!!!!eleventyone!!!... so with that done, do you see how ridiculous those posts sound?  Ok, thanks!   Back to the topic at hand.

[VladisSar]

"In regards to giving back throwing weapons to weaponsmiths, I think that's a fine suggestion - but then don't you need to make up for the recipes you just took away?  Although I wouldn't be sad to see them go, as they're not very big sellers, but that's basically an entire levels worth of recipes."

 Combine Woodworkers with Carpenter =)

a while ago I gave up ability to make Boxes - hell one of the MOST profiteable cafted items, to make my own bow and arrows.... What a fool I was... My ranger only need 1 Bow each 10 levels, and arrows are as cheap as 1 copper....

[Condar Tarsonia]

Minoru@Permafrost wrote:

Please! bring back sub-combines. after stumbling on an old tradeskilling guide. I am appalled by the new system! i came here "to eq2" from World of Warcraft, because i sought complexity. WoW is far too simple and shallow for me, and that was EQ2's appeal. Complexity!after reading about the old crafting system. i have a  deep craving, to see it returned to the game. the idea of a more deep and rewarding, system makes me almost giddy. here are some of the advantages i see in bringing back the old crafting system.As noted previously in a link to one of Domino's posts, it is highly doubtful we will ever see the old system again.  So while changes to add in some similarities to the old system may be worthwhile arguing for, trying to get the 'old system' back is most likely not going to happen.  Please look back to the post I'm referencing for details of Domino's explanation. Advantages 1."depth'  the sub-combine system is deep and requires lots of thought. unlike the super simple. and IMO boring current systemIt was deep in the sense that it took an inordinate amount of steps to make an item.  I don't understand why people believe this makes crafting 'more fun' - you're going through the exact same motions to make worthless products, which is just a timesink, to eventually make something worthwhile.  If that's fun to you, more power to you - but it does not seem to be fun for the majority (which is presumably one of the reasons it was changed previously).2. "value"it would bring some normalcy to the game economy, right now, even decent items sell for MUCH less than the sum of their parts. as much a 75% less then the mats that are used in their creation.I don't see much of anything bringing 'normalcy' to the economy.  Handcrafted items?  Yep, they sell for nothing (in most cases, except consumables).  Mastercrafted items?  They still make some profit, depending on the item.  What I feel a lot of people fail to see is that just because you bring back the 'old system' that is more time-consuming (not necessarily difficult), does NOT mean the items will be reconfigured to be any better than they are now - the items could easily be changed to be better without making them any more of a timesink.3."uniqueness" no other game, except maybe vanguard. has a Really complex crafting system. if you can even count the laggy grind fest that is vanguard, as a game. adding a complex crafting system, will further set EQ2 away from the pack, becoming truly unique, and fun. making the game simpler or more like anything else is the WORST idea possible. think coke making their soda more like Pepsi, Pepsi was popular. but coke was unique. right now, its time to go back to coke classic " /> , however. that applys ONLY to crafting at this point, the combat system should not be restored to its original form. its fun now. it wasn't at release. the opposite of crafting, which was fun at release. and boring nowVery few games, especially in this genre, have any truly unique qualities.  Nearly everything is borrowed and tweaked.And your whole second portion of this point explains the huge problem with this whole debate - some people may have liked the old combat system.  I'm sure they're a minority.  But those who would just love to see the old subcombine system are also a minority.  So what may be 'boring' to you is fun and enjoyable to others, and presumably those others are the majority.Also I want to point out I feel for you - I did like the subcombine system, to an extent.  In fact, I was writing a program that would break down final products into the exact number of raws you needed and which subcombines you would need.  The only reason I liked the system was because you had to plan what you were doing, and after all of that work, it felt rewarding.  But as I've noted, adding more steps to making an item will not guarantee they make the items any more useful - so now you'll simply have fewer worthless items on the market.  That's why I'm against changing the system back.4. "sanity" their are SO many inconsistencys in the crafting system, it feels cheap, and wrong. it feels like someone who had NO idea of how blacksmithing works designed the system. for one, bronze is an alloy of tin and copper. it SHOULD be that way in the game. steel is a compound. incredibly rarely found naturally, and is made by adding carbon to iron. im not saying make the game, super realistic, its a game, and it should feel that way. but why punish those who know something about each trade? making a bronze sword out of Tin and copper, makes sense. mining bronze. dosent. for example.now, warcraft is a boring game in general, compared to EQ2. BUT, the feeling of making a Bronze chest plate, by first combining tin and copper into a bronze bar, though it was an extra step, it made sense. infact, you could guess the ingredents of a recipe if you read a chemistry text-book with a metal alloy section.I understand some people want 'realism' but it's a game.  I know I couldn't go swimming in an ocean in full plate armor (or in cloth armor and somehow keep it in perfect shape around my body), run up a mountainside, and kill some heroic creature up there without breaking stride.  I understand you know something about alloys, but the subcombine system didn't address that problem in the first place.  If your problem is that every recipe uses roots, or carpets require metal, or those types of issues - well, that has to do with the change from the subcombine system.  It would be nice to fix those inconsistencies, but as Domino has noted - she could do MUCH more important or worthwhile things instead of such minor changes that are really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.  So I vote for her to keep to her current philosophy and do just that.5."reward" with more complexity, items could be added that where more advanced, perhaps even fabled quility? right now. crafting feels tacked on, for good measure. the actual crafting part feels right. but the fact that EVERY item uses almost the same components. feels cheap and broken.  right now. really powerful recipes Can't be added to the game, because its just too simple to make them. special recipes. for components And final items are needed. making crafting a REAL part of the game. now, im not saying make it its own class! like SWG, but make it worth while.If I remember correctly, fabled crafting existed at one point and time.  And no, adding more steps to the process, as I have noted repeatedly now, does not mean the items will be any better.  I still don't understand why some feel crafted items should be of the best quality.  The risk vs reward of crafting versus raiding is much different (and I'll state again I am not a hardcore raider - I've been on fewer than 10 raids since I started playing this game).  If you made it so crafters were making the best stuff in the game, there's less incentive for people to hit the end-game content because there's a smaller chance they'll find anything worthwhile.  Consequently you lose that part of your games population.  I'll say it again though, I think the item tiers should be:Treasured < Handcrafted < Mastercrafted <= Legendary < Fabled6. "Fun" while a complex crafting isnt right for everyone, nither is the current system. ive seen level 70 with level 1 artisan. dont simplify the crafting the try to appeal to the non-crafter. because you will make the crafters angry, and still probly wont convince the non-crafterExcept there are far more crafters now than before, and the people asking to bring the old system back are clearly a minority.  And while you've seen level 70 adventures with level 1 artisans, that does not imply they don't enjoy the crafting element.  I've seen low level adventurers with level 70 crafters.  Also some people may choose to only focus on one craft but several adventurers.  Basically you're just skewing your statistics/points to fit your argument  DisadvantagesYes.unfortunately, every rose has its thorns.1. "not for everyone" its true, crafting isnt for everyone, but still. dont try to convert non-crafters by destroying a near perfect system. make the system more fun, not watered down. make it more appealing to non crafters by making it fun, and intriguing. not simple and boringI wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done to make the system more engaging.  Make it harder to hit pristine, for example, as it's entirely too easy in my opinion.  But again, that's just my opinion - some people have problems with it.2. "time" a sub-combine system makes crafting a uber set of armor in 10 miniuts almost impossable. and many people use crafting as an escape from the grinding, but right now. crafting is a grind in its self. with no really cool elements. nothing that makes me say WOW! i want to keep crafting, because this is cool.I enjoy crafting because I make money out of it - usually in the classes I initially thought wouldn't make so much.  Is it a grind? Yep.  But so is nearly everything about this MMO, and most MMOs in general.  I must say the grind is much better than in most games though, and I still feel rewarded for my time and efforts.3. "revolt" right now, people are getting used to the new system, IMO thats not a good thing. changing it back may make some angry with a new system, but have people get used to a good system, and if you dont like it, go back to warcraft. and i guarantee you. more people will convert, because they want a more complex game then, warcraft, or others. have to offer, than leave because you made the crafting system more complected. right now. almost noone is here because EQ2 has a great crafting system. and i will bet that almost noone will leave if it changes, as long as it gets BETTER! i will bet,many more people will leave if it becomes simpler than, will leave if it becomes more complex..Eh, your opinion.  I must say the crafting system in EQ2 is much better than really any other game, so in comparison - it's fantastic.  It is, at the very least, more engaging than any other game I've played in regards to crafting.  Can it be improved?  Yes.  Do I think subcombines will make it "teh uber"?  Absolutely not.Also, I mean no offense, but what makes you an expert on how many more players going back to the "old way" will convert?  It seems to me the game is doing better than it initially did 'back in the day.'  Nearly everyone I've asked has said the game, on the whole, has improved since launch.  Is it easier?  Yes.  Does this appeal to a more 'casual' crowd?  Yes.  Was Vanguard an attempt to 'make a more complex game'?  Yes.  It failed miserably btw, so I don't think that helps your argument much.SOE, for everything people say about them, is a business.  Consequently everything ends up being a business decision.  They will attempt to attract the largest crowd.  A larger crowd means more money.  Making things overly complicated and complex will not help them reach that goal.  Finally, as you said, crafting is probably not the biggest draw in the game for the majority of players.  So leaving it in it's 'simplistic' form is not going to drive too many away, I'll bet.  At the same time, changing it back to a more complex form will also most likely not drive too many away - but I seriously doubt it will be what draws more players.It's a natural phenomenon that people estimate statistics higher than they actually are, based on their own personal beliefs and those around them - but that's because most people associate with people like them.  So your opinion that it will draw a larger crowd is based on all very similar reasons, and while I've noted I agree to an extend the subcombine system had its advantages, SOE changed it to what it is now, and they've kept it like that.  Clearly it's working out for them, and thus as a business decision it succeeded as it has more people crafting, and most likely didn't drive many (if any) away.Over all, if you agree that it should be more complex, do what VladisSar intelligently did, put it in you signature " />it will be in mine till the system is fixed, thank you for you time, any new content i add will be in {} spelling fixes, will be hidden, :pPeople say, "how can you be bitter about something that changed over a year ago, in LU24" I say "Im bitter about it and i wasnt here before lu24" :pSave Crafting/trade skilling: bring back the sub-combines, and complexity!

[Asif]

OMG please dont go back to the way crafting use to be it was like pulling teeth for me.

There are some good idea,s here but going back to subcombines would be the end of crafting for me .

[Gorhauth]

The best part about not having the God-forsaken subcombines is that I can now do what I made crafters to do... make stuff for people who need it.  I use to turn down work all the time on my alchemist in T5, because it wasn't worth the amount of time to make spells/poisons/potions unless I had the stuff all ready for combines (inks ready to go).  If somebody wanted something from a previous tier, they were out of luck.  You had to be a really good friend for me to make anything that I didn't have ready to go.Now, I don't mind making anything, even for folks I never met before.  It isn't unheard of for me to make a couple items for complete strangers if I start to head to a raid early.  The last time that happened, somebody wanted a pair of level 50 Adept IIIs, one wizard and one warlock.  Whip them up as I head out to the raid, drop them off in SS and then hop into the portal.  That was impossible with subcombines, unless you had the stuff from EVERY tier premade and taking up space in your inventory/bank/vault.Screw that.  I'd much rather be able to service my customers than dealing with that crap and turning people away again.

[Asteroid]

Gorhauth wrote:

a1will wrote:

Provisioner, alchemist, sage, and jeweler is by far the easiest classes. You get plenty of recipes per lvl.

I think you missed the posts saying Provs have one of the fewest recipes... Domino stated it was less than half of what Woodworkers get.

This is the amount of recipes from the essential volumes for all professions in T3:Sage – 178 recipesAlchemist – 118 recipesJeweler – 116 recipesTailor – 62 recipesCarpenter – 51 recipesWeaponsmith – 50 recipesArmorer – 40 recipesWoodworker – 38 recipesProvisioner – 37 recipes

[Gorhauth]

Shadowfire wrote:

This is the amount of recipes from the essential volumes for all professions in T3:Woodworker – 38 recipesProvisioner – 37 recipes

This is the amount of recipes from the advanced volumes for woodworker and provisioner in T3:Woodworker - 26 recipesProvisioner - 0 recipesTotal recipes in T3:Woodworker - 64Provisioner - 37Edit:  And that still doesn't explain what drugs the poster was on when he stated that Provisioners were up there with Jewelers, Alchemists and Sages in ease of leveling due to the number of recipes.