Troub Self Buff Proc Change - DESTROYED TROUBADOUR IN PVP & PVE - Page 2

Acolos · 10-05-2007, 03:07 PM

our mit needs increasing....all healers have more mit than us due to their buffs..let us wear plate like eq1 tbh SMILEY

Guy De Alsace · 10-05-2007, 09:33 PM

Miele wrote:

Guy De Alsace wrote:
I was suprised when I got Infusion for my Fury for instance and it continually got me killed because it doesnt say in the spell that it will hit ANY target in range no matter what it is - aggro or non-aggro. A buff that is a liability again.
It may be out of context, but please, don't judge things when you don't know how extremely good they are.

Good it may be but until I figured out why I constantly kept getting aggroed by non-aggro mobs it was a liability having it up.

Acolos · 10-17-2007, 03:30 PM

test server still showing same bug with troub self buff....

Trabbart · 10-17-2007, 06:53 PM

A develloper did almost immediately react to a post that a piece of fighter equipment broke mezz. Saying that THAT had to be looked into.

We just rolled the wrong class. Three years of being ignored. Its our special feat, some sort of stealth skill. So learn to live with it.

Acolos · 10-19-2007, 12:34 PM

this really needs fixing asap

PaganSaint · 10-19-2007, 05:37 PM

Acoloss4 wrote:

UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix

The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed.

It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.

The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.

missing_peace · 10-19-2007, 06:29 PM

PaganSaint wrote:

Acoloss4 wrote:
UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix
The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed.
It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.
The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.

This is a self-buff. No other class has a self buff that interferes with a primary class ability. Troubadours do not have any given ability to cure any detrimental effects on themselves. The self buff was useful before the change. The self buff is not useful after the change. This is not the same as an item proc interfering with mesmerize. The self buff is supposed to be used for soloing. The self buff is currently not used for soloing because of this issue. It is broken.

I honestly do not know how to explain it in any simpler terms.

Acolos · 10-19-2007, 08:19 PM

PaganSaint wrote:

Acoloss4 wrote:
UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix
The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed.
It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.
The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.

heheso, i cast mez on a mob, i cancel autoattack and any dots within the 1sec or so cast time, and spam cure, everytime i mez a mob or player (in pvp), and hope i don't have more than 1 dot on me?Don't be silly tbh, you're talking noobish, our mez is our lvl50/70 spell, like DECAP etc?tbh, i don't mind as much with the pve problem of it because i don't pve that much, but the PVP affect is major.. it rendors using mez almost useless unless i dont use my self buff (217int, aprox 100agi, + the dmg shield) or if i mez them right away... just put the self buff back to proc'ing only off MELEE .. so easy to change it..

PaganSaint · 10-20-2007, 01:41 AM

Acoloss4 wrote:

PaganSaint wrote:
Acoloss4 wrote:
UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix
The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed.
It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed.
The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.
heheso, i cast mez on a mob, i cancel autoattack and any dots within the 1sec or so cast time, and spam cure, everytime i mez a mob or player (in pvp), and hope i don't have more than 1 dot on me?Don't be silly tbh, you're talking noobish, our mez is our lvl50/70 spell, like DECAP etc?tbh, i don't mind as much with the pve problem of it because i don't pve that much, but the PVP affect is major.. it rendors using mez almost useless unless i dont use my self buff (217int, aprox 100agi, + the dmg shield) or if i mez them right away... just put the self buff back to proc'ing only off MELEE .. so easy to change it..

Do the same thing I have for my mez, make it a macro that cancels auto attack, cure as you are dotted, its not hard, especially if you are kiting like a solo bard does and cancel your dots right before and as you cast.The self buff was changed to be any damage to enhance your solo'ing in PvE and in PvP. Ranged attacks, DD spells and DoT spells were not proc'ing any damage, so basically as a bard was kiting and taking ranged and spell damage they went from just eating the damage to dealing the damage back to their target. You know, increasing your damage output. missing_peace wrote:

This is a self-buff. No other class has a self buff that interferes with a primary class ability. Troubadours do not have any given ability to cure any detrimental effects on themselves. The self buff was useful before the change. The self buff is not useful after the change. This is not the same as an item proc interfering with mesmerize. The self buff is supposed to be used for soloing. The self buff is currently not used for soloing because of this issue. It is broken.
I honestly do not know how to explain it in any simpler terms.

It is not interfering with a primary class ability. You not removing the dots is interfering with your class ability. Swashbucklers don't have any given ability to cure either, thats why I said I use remedy potions. What does troub all the sudden not have the ability to use those? Wait I just checked. They can.The self buff is more useful after the change for those who know how to counter the any damage reactive proc, proc'ing off damage from DoTs. You know, cures.Broken? No. Harder to use effectively against opponents who DoT you? Yes.Saying something is broken is saying that there is a flaw causing the effect to work in a way different than it is worded and other than how the mechanics work.This is working as worded, as the mechanics take action and from both of those, as intended.To use your phrase: I honestly do not know how to explain it in simpler terms.

missing_peace · 10-20-2007, 03:06 PM

PaganSaint wrote:

It is not interfering with a primary class ability. You not removing the dots is interfering with your class ability. Swashbucklers don't have any given ability to cure either, thats why I said I use remedy potions. What does troub all the sudden not have the ability to use those? Wait I just checked. They can.The self buff is more useful after the change for those who know how to counter the any damage reactive proc, proc'ing off damage from DoTs. You know, cures.Broken? No. Harder to use effectively against opponents who DoT you? Yes.Saying something is broken is saying that there is a flaw causing the effect to work in a way different than it is worded and other than how the mechanics work.This is working as worded, as the mechanics take action and from both of those, as intended.To use your phrase: I honestly do not know how to explain it in simpler terms.

If a troubadour had the offensive and defensive capabilities of a swashbuckler then I might agree. However, the two classes play so differently that there is simply no comparison to their abilty to solo effectivly. Without effective mesmerizing a troubadour simply does not solo. A swashbuckler can easily overpower the same encounter through sheer damage capability.

If you want to advocate that troubadours be given the damage and defensive capabilities of a swashbuckler then, sure, keep the buff in it's current state. Otherwise, it just cripples the troubadour class. This is not some occasional issue that requires the use of a potion. This affects every single fight for a troubadour. They would use potions faster than a ranger uses arrows.

If we go by your definition of broken then perhaps that is not the correct phrase to use to describe the change. It still remains, however, a monumentally bad mechanics change that futher hinders the troubadour's already poor ability to solo. If you want to justify this as a good change for troubadours, then perhaps you should not compare them to a swashbuckler.

Jacien · 10-20-2007, 03:16 PM

lolUm, is someone honestly arguing that since we can use cure/remedy potions to help our class defining abilities work as intended, that we're not broken?What other class requires dependency on potions for their class defining abilities to function?This is a mickey-mouse work around. It is not intended. Advocating the required use of potions to help "fix" our class is utterly ridiculous.

PaganSaint · 10-20-2007, 03:46 PM

How so?Mez is by far not the Troub's defining ability, just like it is not the defining ability for Swashbuckler or Bruiser.It is an added utility, a support ability that is used for what it is being used for solo and to a partial fail safe in groups.You may want to read the last five lines of my previous post.When you can prove that the ability is not working as worded, as the mechanics work for other like abilities and items then you can say it is broken.If you want to talk about broken from the standpoint of a class defining ability, look at Coercers and charm.

Jacien · 10-20-2007, 05:48 PM

Let's get away from the whole "It's broken" argument then. Let's change it to, "It's different" instead.Can you name one class that requires potion use for their self-buff to function properly (read: with no ill side effects)?If the answer is no, which I suspect it will be, why has the Troubador class had it's self buff altered to require potion use for it to function properly?

PaganSaint · 10-20-2007, 06:28 PM

Who says it is not functioning properly? It is functioning exactly the same way any other similarly worded ability and piece of equipment does.All this has been is a whine about how without taking measures to play intelligently to get the most out of a troub's buffs and abilities the self buff breaks mezzes.What I find wrong with the situation is how this is only a real problem because of how high the trigger percentage is on the self buff, requiring you to fully cure before use of the Mesmerize ability with little wiggle room due to the near certainty of triggering damage onto the mob if there are multiple DoTs.

Jacien · 10-21-2007, 03:12 AM

Who says it is not working properly? Well, how long has the self-buff ability been associated with bard classes? From their inception? If so, then for the past however long the game has been up and running the self-buff did not break mesmerize. Currently, it does. Therefore, the self-buff is not conforming to established standards of behavior. This is the definition of "Properly".Are you saying the self-buff was broken all these past years...and only recently fixed to function per it's written description? I don't believe the description was rewritten. So, why do you suppose they made the change?Can we agree the change was not reviewed thoroughly enough in testing to catch the inherent problems associated with using the ability in it's current form today?Do you have a suggesting resolution for the issues at hand? Perhaps a change which can remove the requirement of cure/remedy potions.

PaganSaint · 10-21-2007, 03:32 AM

The description was rewritten. It went from proc'ing off of melee only to proc'ing off of when damaged.EDIT:As far as a suggestion to remove the need to cure?No. Why make another aspect of the game take less skill?

Jacien · 10-21-2007, 01:14 PM

PaganSaint wrote:

The description was rewritten. It went from proc'ing off of melee only to proc'ing off of when damaged.EDIT:As far as a suggestion to remove the need to cure?No. Why make another aspect of the game take less skill?

Ok, we're back to the start of your argument for keeping the change. Even though you admit to having "Little wiggle room" with regard to curing DoTs before mesmerizing, you're actually an advocate for this. Because, I assume, you enjoy the challenge this brings.The fact is, however, the change was not intended to make the bards lives more difficult or add any level of challenge to our game play. This is a side effect of a poorly altered ability that was clearly not given appropriate testing time nor thoroughly thought about before the change.You ask, why make another aspect of the game take less skill. I ask, why not? Why are bards the only class who now require the use of potions to effectively utilize their self buff in solo game play?

PaganSaint · 10-21-2007, 04:09 PM

No.Stop either willfully changing what I say, or learn to read more thoroughly.I said I do not want to see the need to cure removed, the proc chance itself needs to be lowered, it is the determining factor of how much wiggle room you have. The added effect of making the buff proc off of any damage was to increase the power of the buff, well guess what you can't exclude one buff from how the mechanics work. You can either have the buff as it is, procing off any damage and breaking mez if you are lazy/stupid and don't cure(working correctly) or you can have the buff proc off of melee attacks for a net gain of much less usefulness but doesn't break mezzes when dotted.~~~As for why not making another aspect take less skill?It is already stupid easy to solo heroic, read group, content in this game. The fact that you want everything, a damage proc that has a high percentage chance to proc, proc's off of any damage taken, doesn't break mez when you are too lazy to cure, and argue for yet easier gameplay shows exactly how pointless it is to argue with you over this.Here's a hint, I can't use a good many of the other classes I play abilities when solo'ing indiscriminately because they will either get me killed or make it exceptionally more difficult.Am I making a spam thread for that? No.Why? It takes more skill to have to swap buffs on the fly, cure, position mobs, root certain mobs, snare others, while mezzing yet others.Skilless play just leads to boredom.

Acolos · 10-22-2007, 01:57 PM

as someone saidthe buff change was to HELP us, but a side affect has made us worse... so, the buff needs to be changed back to melee only proc, or some work has to be done to stop it proccing when dotted...

Asif · 10-22-2007, 02:10 PM

Thats all we ask is put it back to the way it was and problem solved !!!!

Cuz · 10-22-2007, 08:42 PM

PaganSaint wrote:

Blablabla.

Shouldn't you be asking for your swash offensive buff to proc on spell cast on you, instead of how it is now? Personally I don't ever use the buff, but when I want to solo I just hop on my monk who's ridiculously easy to solo with, so meh. It's a bad change, but it's easier to get a monk or swash to T7 than it is to get this "fixed".

Aeralik · 10-24-2007, 06:28 PM

I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs SMILEY

Ballads · 10-24-2007, 07:00 PM

Aeralik wrote:

I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " />

If your not removing the conslot requirement it is still worthless. P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges.

Lornick · 10-24-2007, 07:51 PM

Ballads wrote:

Aeralik wrote:
I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs ">
If your not removing the conslot requirement it is still worthless. P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges.

That's just bad form bro. If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you.

Pitt Hammerfi · 10-24-2007, 08:47 PM

Aeralik wrote:

I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " width="15" height="15" />

Yes because as we all know, troubies and dirges need all the help they can get when it comes to being wanted in groups/raids..

PaganSaint · 10-24-2007, 08:56 PM

Aeralik wrote:

I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " />

Is this going to affect all buffs and debuffs that are worded the same as the Troub/Dirge buffs?

PaganSaint · 10-24-2007, 09:46 PM

PaganSaint wrote:

Aeralik wrote:
I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " />
Is this going to affect all buffs and debuffs that are worded the same as the Troub/Dirge buffs?

Just wanted to clarify this.This has the potential to massively change some fights if it does due to the nature of the uncurable and unstrippable debuffs/buffs they use.If it doesn't this could cause problems with any proc, DoT, or effects changes further down the road making the buffs either completely unusable or making them insanely powerful then nerfed to oblivion.

Trabbart · 10-25-2007, 03:07 AM

Thank you for paying attention

Ikikik

Gungo · 10-25-2007, 10:55 AM

Lornick wrote:

Ballads wrote:
Aeralik wrote:
I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs ">
If your not removing the conslot requirement it is still worthless. P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges.
That's just bad form bro. If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you.

Thats not true if i am drowning i want the person next to me to drown first that way i can use thier corpse as a floatation device.

Slacka · 10-25-2007, 11:21 AM

Aeralik wrote:

Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs

We can only pray that its the long overdue removal of the conc slot requirement on our self buff.. a spell that i dont think i have used in over a year now as theres always something more important to the group that i need to run instead...

10-05-2007, 09:33 PM	#32
Guy De Alsace Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,902	Miele wrote: Guy De Alsace wrote: I was suprised when I got Infusion for my Fury for instance and it continually got me killed because it doesnt say in the spell that it will hit ANY target in range no matter what it is - aggro or non-aggro. A buff that is a liability again. It may be out of context, but please, don't judge things when you don't know how extremely good they are. Good it may be but until I figured out why I constantly kept getting aggroed by non-aggro mobs it was a liability having it up.

10-19-2007, 05:37 PM	#36
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	Acoloss4 wrote: UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed. The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should.

10-19-2007, 06:29 PM	#37
missing_peace Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 90	PaganSaint wrote: Acoloss4 wrote: UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed. The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should. This is a self-buff. No other class has a self buff that interferes with a primary class ability. Troubadours do not have any given ability to cure any detrimental effects on themselves. The self buff was useful before the change. The self buff is not useful after the change. This is not the same as an item proc interfering with mesmerize. The self buff is supposed to be used for soloing. The self buff is currently not used for soloing because of this issue. It is broken. I honestly do not know how to explain it in any simpler terms.

10-19-2007, 08:19 PM	#38
Acolos General Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 46	PaganSaint wrote: Acoloss4 wrote: UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed. The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should. heheso, i cast mez on a mob, i cancel autoattack and any dots within the 1sec or so cast time, and spam cure, everytime i mez a mob or player (in pvp), and hope i don't have more than 1 dot on me?Don't be silly tbh, you're talking noobish, our mez is our lvl50/70 spell, like DECAP etc?tbh, i don't mind as much with the pve problem of it because i don't pve that much, but the PVP affect is major.. it rendors using mez almost useless unless i dont use my self buff (217int, aprox 100agi, + the dmg shield) or if i mez them right away... just put the self buff back to proc'ing only off MELEE .. so easy to change it..

10-20-2007, 01:41 AM	#39
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	Acoloss4 wrote: PaganSaint wrote: Acoloss4 wrote: UPDATED --- Theory was correct SONG BARRIER PROCS WHEN TARGET IS MEZZEDSO -- IF I AM DOTTED , I MEZ SOMEONE -- thers a 20% chance of me breaking mez... this mak es mez useless unless i mez them firstI'm guesssnig this is the same in pveplease fix The troub self buff is a percent based, when damaged proc. It is targetted at the mob that does the damage, hence, the effect of breaking mezzes when you do not cure an effect off of yourself from a mob that you have mezzed. It is not the same as an AE/encounter type proc that should be ignoring any mobs that are mezzed. The tunic of shadowed songs does the same thing on my Swashbuckler, same type of proc, I just tend to carry around remedy potions and cure effects off of myself before the BP has a chance to trigger like anyone who wants to effectively solo should. heheso, i cast mez on a mob, i cancel autoattack and any dots within the 1sec or so cast time, and spam cure, everytime i mez a mob or player (in pvp), and hope i don't have more than 1 dot on me?Don't be silly tbh, you're talking noobish, our mez is our lvl50/70 spell, like DECAP etc?tbh, i don't mind as much with the pve problem of it because i don't pve that much, but the PVP affect is major.. it rendors using mez almost useless unless i dont use my self buff (217int, aprox 100agi, + the dmg shield) or if i mez them right away... just put the self buff back to proc'ing only off MELEE .. so easy to change it.. Do the same thing I have for my mez, make it a macro that cancels auto attack, cure as you are dotted, its not hard, especially if you are kiting like a solo bard does and cancel your dots right before and as you cast.The self buff was changed to be any damage to enhance your solo'ing in PvE and in PvP. Ranged attacks, DD spells and DoT spells were not proc'ing any damage, so basically as a bard was kiting and taking ranged and spell damage they went from just eating the damage to dealing the damage back to their target. You know, increasing your damage output. missing_peace wrote: This is a self-buff. No other class has a self buff that interferes with a primary class ability. Troubadours do not have any given ability to cure any detrimental effects on themselves. The self buff was useful before the change. The self buff is not useful after the change. This is not the same as an item proc interfering with mesmerize. The self buff is supposed to be used for soloing. The self buff is currently not used for soloing because of this issue. It is broken. I honestly do not know how to explain it in any simpler terms. It is not interfering with a primary class ability. You not removing the dots is interfering with your class ability. Swashbucklers don't have any given ability to cure either, thats why I said I use remedy potions. What does troub all the sudden not have the ability to use those? Wait I just checked. They can.The self buff is more useful after the change for those who know how to counter the any damage reactive proc, proc'ing off damage from DoTs. You know, cures.Broken? No. Harder to use effectively against opponents who DoT you? Yes.Saying something is broken is saying that there is a flaw causing the effect to work in a way different than it is worded and other than how the mechanics work.This is working as worded, as the mechanics take action and from both of those, as intended.To use your phrase: I honestly do not know how to explain it in simpler terms.

10-05-2007, 03:07 PM	#31
Acolos General Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 46	our mit needs increasing....all healers have more mit than us due to their buffs..let us wear plate like eq1 tbh

10-17-2007, 03:30 PM	#33
Acolos General Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 46	test server still showing same bug with troub self buff....

10-17-2007, 06:53 PM	#34
Trabbart Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 152	A develloper did almost immediately react to a post that a piece of fighter equipment broke mezz. Saying that THAT had to be looked into. We just rolled the wrong class. Three years of being ignored. Its our special feat, some sort of stealth skill. So learn to live with it.

10-19-2007, 12:34 PM	#35
Acolos General Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 46	this really needs fixing asap

10-20-2007, 03:06 PM	#40
missing_peace Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 90	PaganSaint wrote: It is not interfering with a primary class ability. You not removing the dots is interfering with your class ability. Swashbucklers don't have any given ability to cure either, thats why I said I use remedy potions. What does troub all the sudden not have the ability to use those? Wait I just checked. They can.The self buff is more useful after the change for those who know how to counter the any damage reactive proc, proc'ing off damage from DoTs. You know, cures.Broken? No. Harder to use effectively against opponents who DoT you? Yes.Saying something is broken is saying that there is a flaw causing the effect to work in a way different than it is worded and other than how the mechanics work.This is working as worded, as the mechanics take action and from both of those, as intended.To use your phrase: I honestly do not know how to explain it in simpler terms. If a troubadour had the offensive and defensive capabilities of a swashbuckler then I might agree. However, the two classes play so differently that there is simply no comparison to their abilty to solo effectivly. Without effective mesmerizing a troubadour simply does not solo. A swashbuckler can easily overpower the same encounter through sheer damage capability. If you want to advocate that troubadours be given the damage and defensive capabilities of a swashbuckler then, sure, keep the buff in it's current state. Otherwise, it just cripples the troubadour class. This is not some occasional issue that requires the use of a potion. This affects every single fight for a troubadour. They would use potions faster than a ranger uses arrows. If we go by your definition of broken then perhaps that is not the correct phrase to use to describe the change. It still remains, however, a monumentally bad mechanics change that futher hinders the troubadour's already poor ability to solo. If you want to justify this as a good change for troubadours, then perhaps you should not compare them to a swashbuckler.

10-20-2007, 03:16 PM	#41
Jacien Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 157	lolUm, is someone honestly arguing that since we can use cure/remedy potions to help our class defining abilities work as intended, that we're not broken?What other class requires dependency on potions for their class defining abilities to function?This is a mickey-mouse work around. It is not intended. Advocating the required use of potions to help "fix" our class is utterly ridiculous.

10-20-2007, 03:46 PM	#42
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	How so?Mez is by far not the Troub's defining ability, just like it is not the defining ability for Swashbuckler or Bruiser.It is an added utility, a support ability that is used for what it is being used for solo and to a partial fail safe in groups.You may want to read the last five lines of my previous post.When you can prove that the ability is not working as worded, as the mechanics work for other like abilities and items then you can say it is broken.If you want to talk about broken from the standpoint of a class defining ability, look at Coercers and charm.

10-20-2007, 05:48 PM	#43
Jacien Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 157	Let's get away from the whole "It's broken" argument then. Let's change it to, "It's different" instead.Can you name one class that requires potion use for their self-buff to function properly (read: with no ill side effects)?If the answer is no, which I suspect it will be, why has the Troubador class had it's self buff altered to require potion use for it to function properly?

10-20-2007, 06:28 PM	#44
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	Who says it is not functioning properly? It is functioning exactly the same way any other similarly worded ability and piece of equipment does.All this has been is a whine about how without taking measures to play intelligently to get the most out of a troub's buffs and abilities the self buff breaks mezzes.What I find wrong with the situation is how this is only a real problem because of how high the trigger percentage is on the self buff, requiring you to fully cure before use of the Mesmerize ability with little wiggle room due to the near certainty of triggering damage onto the mob if there are multiple DoTs.

10-21-2007, 03:12 AM	#45
Jacien Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 157	Who says it is not working properly? Well, how long has the self-buff ability been associated with bard classes? From their inception? If so, then for the past however long the game has been up and running the self-buff did not break mesmerize. Currently, it does. Therefore, the self-buff is not conforming to established standards of behavior. This is the definition of "Properly".Are you saying the self-buff was broken all these past years...and only recently fixed to function per it's written description? I don't believe the description was rewritten. So, why do you suppose they made the change?Can we agree the change was not reviewed thoroughly enough in testing to catch the inherent problems associated with using the ability in it's current form today?Do you have a suggesting resolution for the issues at hand? Perhaps a change which can remove the requirement of cure/remedy potions.

10-21-2007, 03:32 AM	#46
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	The description was rewritten. It went from proc'ing off of melee only to proc'ing off of when damaged.EDIT:As far as a suggestion to remove the need to cure?No. Why make another aspect of the game take less skill?

10-21-2007, 01:14 PM	#47
Jacien Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 157	PaganSaint wrote: The description was rewritten. It went from proc'ing off of melee only to proc'ing off of when damaged.EDIT:As far as a suggestion to remove the need to cure?No. Why make another aspect of the game take less skill? Ok, we're back to the start of your argument for keeping the change. Even though you admit to having "Little wiggle room" with regard to curing DoTs before mesmerizing, you're actually an advocate for this. Because, I assume, you enjoy the challenge this brings.The fact is, however, the change was not intended to make the bards lives more difficult or add any level of challenge to our game play. This is a side effect of a poorly altered ability that was clearly not given appropriate testing time nor thoroughly thought about before the change.You ask, why make another aspect of the game take less skill. I ask, why not? Why are bards the only class who now require the use of potions to effectively utilize their self buff in solo game play?

10-21-2007, 04:09 PM	#48
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	No.Stop either willfully changing what I say, or learn to read more thoroughly.I said I do not want to see the need to cure removed, the proc chance itself needs to be lowered, it is the determining factor of how much wiggle room you have. The added effect of making the buff proc off of any damage was to increase the power of the buff, well guess what you can't exclude one buff from how the mechanics work. You can either have the buff as it is, procing off any damage and breaking mez if you are lazy/stupid and don't cure(working correctly) or you can have the buff proc off of melee attacks for a net gain of much less usefulness but doesn't break mezzes when dotted.~~~As for why not making another aspect take less skill?It is already stupid easy to solo heroic, read group, content in this game. The fact that you want everything, a damage proc that has a high percentage chance to proc, proc's off of any damage taken, doesn't break mez when you are too lazy to cure, and argue for yet easier gameplay shows exactly how pointless it is to argue with you over this.Here's a hint, I can't use a good many of the other classes I play abilities when solo'ing indiscriminately because they will either get me killed or make it exceptionally more difficult.Am I making a spam thread for that? No.Why? It takes more skill to have to swap buffs on the fly, cure, position mobs, root certain mobs, snare others, while mezzing yet others.Skilless play just leads to boredom.

10-22-2007, 01:57 PM	#49
Acolos General Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 46	as someone saidthe buff change was to HELP us, but a side affect has made us worse... so, the buff needs to be changed back to melee only proc, or some work has to be done to stop it proccing when dotted...

10-22-2007, 02:10 PM	#50
Asif Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 391	Thats all we ask is put it back to the way it was and problem solved !!!!

10-22-2007, 08:42 PM	#51
Cuz Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 825	PaganSaint wrote: Blablabla. Shouldn't you be asking for your swash offensive buff to proc on spell cast on you, instead of how it is now? Personally I don't ever use the buff, but when I want to solo I just hop on my monk who's ridiculously easy to solo with, so meh. It's a bad change, but it's easier to get a monk or swash to T7 than it is to get this "fixed". __________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ one immature posted ------------------------------------------------------------

10-24-2007, 06:28 PM	#52
Aeralik Developer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 672	I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs

10-24-2007, 07:00 PM	#53
Ballads Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 264	Aeralik wrote: I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " /> If your not removing the conslot requirement it is still worthless. P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges.

10-24-2007, 07:51 PM	#54
Lornick Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 1,114	Ballads wrote: Aeralik wrote: I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs "> If your not removing the conslot requirement it is still worthless. P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges. That's just bad form bro. If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you. __________________

10-24-2007, 08:47 PM	#55
Pitt Hammerfi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts: 710	Aeralik wrote: I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " width="15" height="15" /> Yes because as we all know, troubies and dirges need all the help they can get when it comes to being wanted in groups/raids.. __________________ www.advancedws.com.au

10-24-2007, 08:56 PM	#56
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	Aeralik wrote: I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " /> Is this going to affect all buffs and debuffs that are worded the same as the Troub/Dirge buffs?

10-24-2007, 09:46 PM	#57
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	PaganSaint wrote: Aeralik wrote: I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs " /> Is this going to affect all buffs and debuffs that are worded the same as the Troub/Dirge buffs? Just wanted to clarify this.This has the potential to massively change some fights if it does due to the nature of the uncurable and unstrippable debuffs/buffs they use.If it doesn't this could cause problems with any proc, DoT, or effects changes further down the road making the buffs either completely unusable or making them insanely powerful then nerfed to oblivion.

10-25-2007, 03:07 AM	#58
Trabbart Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 152	Thank you for paying attention Ikikik

10-25-2007, 10:55 AM	#59
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Lornick wrote: Ballads wrote: Aeralik wrote: I just fixed this to only trigger on the initial melee or spell attack only. So it should no longer proc on dot ticks. Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs "> If your not removing the conslot requirement it is still worthless. P.S> Please for the love of god remove the daze from precision of the maestro and it rok upgrade or add a stifle to cob for dirges. That's just bad form bro. If your drowning you ask for a life preserver... you don't ask for someone else to drown with you. Thats not true if i am drowning i want the person next to me to drown first that way i can use thier corpse as a floatation device.

10-25-2007, 11:21 AM	#60
Slacka Server: Runnyeye Guild: Xanadu Rank: Alt / Relic of the Past Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 53	Aeralik wrote: Plus I added an extra little bonus for both the troubador and dirge self buffs We can only pray that its the long overdue removal of the conc slot requirement on our self buff.. a spell that i dont think i have used in over a year now as theres always something more important to the group that i need to run instead... __________________ Slacka - 80 Dirge - Xanadu - Runnyeye Server Overdrive - 74 Brigand - Xanlite - Runnyeye Server Lardy - 70 Guardian - Xanlite - Runnyeye Server Admin of Xanadu Raid Loot Database