Shard of Fear : No mobs see invis. - Page 5

Sapphirius · 10-13-2007, 02:28 PM

As interesting as they can be, they truly don't have a place in any thread, and a line is crossed when the "RL Card" is played.

As for the Shard of Fear and see-invis mobs, this discussion is now moot. They now have see-invis mobs present plus a larger aggro radius so there are fewer safe spots in the zone. I think now would be a good time to let the see-invis part of the debate simply drop and move on to better things.

MrWolfie · 10-14-2007, 11:20 AM

Hopefully, some better things:My ideas for traps:1. All scouts (including scout pets) get a new skill: Detect Traps.This skill is always-on. Any scout will automatically see a trap when it is present (scout pets have to be possessed by their master in order to "see" the trap, but the trap would have to be flagged to become visible to the player in their normal form).2. Traps come in many different shapes and sizes, from trip-wires to pressure plates. They show up as a cold blue graphic in whatever shape applies to the trap type.3. Anyone using infra-vision (maybe sonic-vision too) will also be able to see a trap, in the same blue graphic.4. Scouts (and scout pets being possessed) can "flag" a trap, using their Disable Trap skill. An easy skill check will make the trap visible to all group members. There is a small chance that doing this may trigger the trap. There is a chance that the scout will also get a skill-up upon success. 5. Scouts (and scout pets being possessed) can try to disable the trap, using their Disable Trap skill. This skill check is more difficult and based on the trap type, which will be random and unknown to the player. There is a greater chance the trap will trigger. There is also a chance for a skill-up for the scout upon success. I would suggest that scout pets get disable trap at one half the skill of a proper scout of their level, thereby making it a much riskier proposition to have a summoner disable a trap than have a genuine scout do it.Disabling the trap removes it from that instance (or in the case of a contested area, removes it for a set period of time).6. In the absence of a scout (or scout-type pet) the trap can be avoided if no-one touches it (size, shape and placement will dictate how difficult this is). It could be walked around, jumped over, flown over (by fae), levitated over when SOE eventually implement levitaton

. Whatever, just so long as you don't TOUCH IT!

Or it can be triggered on purpose. Any player, charmed mob or pet that comes into contact with the trap ~ or perhaps even destroying the trap using magic damage ~ can trigger the trap. However, the results of triggering the trap will be unknown until the trap is triggered and this time around there's no telling what could happen!!7. People may find that certain classes may have advantages over others when triggering traps, but that is wholly dependant on the trap type, which would be entirely random.8. Trap types could be explosive with a random area of effect; an alarum summoning nearby mobs; magically summoning mob(s); falling ceilings; random group teleport ~ or not so random

~ or other magic effects/stuns/mezzes with random aoe sizes. The random aoe size means that a group could rarely be absolutely sure of being out of range, if sending just one party member to trigger the trap, and even then, it might not be an explosive-type trap! Damage from traps could be deadly once more, with possible reductions for AGI or Mitigation.I think this would spice things up nicely. Giving more opportunities to skill-up the 2nd worse skill to max: disable trap. While applying reasons to use otherwise useless skills/spells: infra-vision (and sonic vision) and possess minion.I'm sure it's all quite rough and ready, and with more input could perhaps integrate with other under-utilised skills.Feel free to twist it into whatever shape you like.

Sapphirius · 10-14-2007, 11:51 AM

You know, I actually like those ideas for traps. Perhaps you could start a new thread to address it?

liveja · 10-14-2007, 02:34 PM

I like Wolfie's trap ideas, too.

Now, could we maybe put them in a thread of their own, rather than burying them in this utterly moot argument about whether or not mobs in SoF can or should see thru stealth/invis? & maybe, while we're at it, lock this particular thread, as it's not especially relevant any more?

Kizee · 10-14-2007, 06:02 PM

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

I like Wolfie's trap ideas, too.
Now, could we maybe put them in a thread of their own, rather than burying them in this utterly moot argument about whether or not mobs in SoF can or should see thru stealth/invis? & maybe, while we're at it, lock this particular thread, as it's not especially relevant any more?

It's not really an idea....EQ1 had traps.As a rogue in EQ1 the traps were not challenging...they were annoying.

Magic · 10-15-2007, 08:56 PM

As for the Shard of Fear zone being easy, none of my toons are high enough to hunt there yet. But being a soloist, I prefer zones where mobs can't detect me when invis or stealthed. So I'd say leave it that way.

On another point already introduced into the thread, I agree with giving us three options (solo, group, or epic) and it should apply to every zone at the time of zoning into it. The loot should be scaled to the zone's chosen difficulty too.

The one thing that I don't want to see is the levels of the mobs scaled to me. Whatever their numeric levels are now should remain the same but the additional tags such as heroic and the number of arrows should scale to the difficulty level chosen for that zone. For example, in the Commonlands is mob named Gustfeather. In the solo version it should be level 25 without arrows. In the group version it should be level 25^ or so. In the epic version it should be level 25^^^ epic x 4 or so.

Note that everyone in the group version of the zone would be looking for a group. That would make grouping much easier, would it not? Maybe in addition SOE should disable the grouping functions while in the solo version of every zone so that everyone remains true to the solo option.

I motion to add this feature to all zones!

Sapphirius · 10-15-2007, 09:25 PM

Magical wrote:

Note that everyone in the group version of the zone would be looking for a group. That would make grouping much easier, would it not? Maybe in addition SOE should disable the grouping functions while in the solo version of every zone so that everyone remains true to the solo option.
I motion to add this feature to all zones!

Heavens no. People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible. Not to mention, this was done in another MMO, and the encounters sucked as far as quality was concerned. I motion this idea die a quick and speedy death.

Most of the overland is solo as it is. Here. Here's a listing of some of the soloable instances in the game. For all that is sacred, SOE, please don't even think about making every single zone in the game scalable like this. The way the zones are now is perfect. Overland is soloable; dungeons groupable; instances a mix of solo, group, and raid.

Killerbee3000 · 10-16-2007, 06:04 AM

the trap idea isnt exactly new... most offline rpg's (nwm for example) have such traps.... but, hey why not? no need to reinvent the wheel

i approve the idea of traps.

Crib92 · 10-16-2007, 12:25 PM

A poster 3 or 4 pages ago hit on a great idea and one that I agree with. ALL mobs should have an opportunity to see invis/stealth. With Scout mobs having a greater opportunity to do so.

This way, you have an opportunity as a Scout to get to where you need to go, but not guaranteed. (Like failure rate on FD)

IMO, if you play a game with no risk then you will quickly become bored. I personally would love to see heroic content scale up considerably, because I'm tired of having to fight mobs 5 levels over me to be challenged. I remember going into POA at 64 cause everything else was too easy... (In treasured/Legendary) The original HOF was perfect, too sad what they did to that zone.

Bozidar · 10-16-2007, 03:29 PM

Why not a disable trap solution similar to crafting? You get 2 or 4 progress bars.. progress and success chance.. you have skills you have to actively use to get past the trap.

Just making it a skill check is boring SMILEY Oh, i have to go grind a few instances to find traps and get my skill up..

vs.. "Wait! Hold up everyone, a trap! Let me get out my tool kit and disarm it.. " *click*click*click*click*click*.. ah crap.. everyone move back, pre heal me!!

*boom*

See.. now THAT sounds like a.. uhm.. blast.. to me SMILEY

Sapphirius · 10-17-2007, 05:53 AM

Bozidar wrote:

"Wait! Hold up everyone, a trap! Let me get out my tool kit and disarm it.. " *click*click*click*click*click*.. ah crap.. everyone move back, pre heal me!!
*boom*
See.. now THAT sounds like a.. uhm.. blast.. to me " width="15" height="15" />

[Removed for Content]!

Dirty Jack Rackham · 10-18-2007, 02:28 PM

MrWolfie wrote:

Hopefully, some better things:My ideas for traps:3. Anyone using infra-vision (maybe sonic-vision too) will also be able to see a trap, in the same blue graphic.

Infra-vision is heat based. Most traps would be at ambient "room" temperature and there for the same temperatue as the surrounding rocks, dirt, grass, walls, ect.

Sonic-vision is "supposedly" motion based. Unless the trap is moving then there should be zero possibility seeing it.

Perhaps ultra-vision?

Magic · 10-18-2007, 06:13 PM

Sapphirius wrote:

... People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible...

What you say doesn't make sense to me, but that's not to say that you're wrong.

However, I'd settle for a separate server for soloists. We have servers for PvP and other variants already.

Magic · 10-18-2007, 06:34 PM

Dirty Jack Rackham wrote:

Infra-vision is heat based. Most traps would be at ambient "room" temperature and there for the same temperatue as the surrounding rocks, dirt, grass, walls, ect.
Sonic-vision is "supposedly" motion based. Unless the trap is moving then there should be zero possibility seeing it.
Perhaps ultra-vision?

I'm not so sure about all of that. Ultravision has to do with light just above visible light in frequency. Unless the trap is giving off ultraviolet light, ultravision won't work. It may be possible for a magically-triggered trap to give off this energy.

A trip wire trap would be visible to sonicvision when a breeze makes the wire vibrate.

A proximity trap might use ultrasonic waves and might be detectable with sonicvision. If it uses magic then ultravision might do it.

A pressure plate trap would be more difficult to detect but not impossible. Since the plate would be suspended apart from the surrounding ground material, temperature changes would occur at a different rate. For example, if a room suddenly were to get warmer or cooler, the pressure plate would reach the new temperature sooner than the surrounding material. Infravision would detect this.

But having said all of this, I'd rather not have traps. Those of us who solo would get mighty ticked off about traps if we aren't the trap-sniffing class. It's bad enough to have our health almost at zero when we manage to run away from a group of mobs. It's quite another to get killed by a trap that we couldn't possibly detect along our route.

Sapphirius · 10-19-2007, 07:30 PM

Magical wrote:

Sapphirius wrote:
... People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible...
What you say doesn't make sense to me, but that's not to say that you're wrong.
However, I'd settle for a separate server for soloists. We have servers for PvP and other variants already.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that it doesn't make sense to you. Having a seperate server just for soloists is as bad an idea as making every single zone scalable to solo, group, and raid.

10-13-2007, 02:28 PM	#121
Sapphirius Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,399	As interesting as they can be, they truly don't have a place in any thread, and a line is crossed when the "RL Card" is played. As for the Shard of Fear and see-invis mobs, this discussion is now moot. They now have see-invis mobs present plus a larger aggro radius so there are fewer safe spots in the zone. I think now would be a good time to let the see-invis part of the debate simply drop and move on to better things. __________________ Decorating is 1% inspiration, 9% work, and 90% tweaking. I've spent many an hour just moving things I've placed an inch or so over "that-a-way."

10-14-2007, 11:20 AM	#122
MrWolfie Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Agent of Chaos Guildhall, North Qeynos, Splitpaw. Posts: 1,239	Hopefully, some better things:My ideas for traps:1. All scouts (including scout pets) get a new skill: Detect Traps.This skill is always-on. Any scout will automatically see a trap when it is present (scout pets have to be possessed by their master in order to "see" the trap, but the trap would have to be flagged to become visible to the player in their normal form).2. Traps come in many different shapes and sizes, from trip-wires to pressure plates. They show up as a cold blue graphic in whatever shape applies to the trap type.3. Anyone using infra-vision (maybe sonic-vision too) will also be able to see a trap, in the same blue graphic.4. Scouts (and scout pets being possessed) can "flag" a trap, using their Disable Trap skill. An easy skill check will make the trap visible to all group members. There is a small chance that doing this may trigger the trap. There is a chance that the scout will also get a skill-up upon success. 5. Scouts (and scout pets being possessed) can try to disable the trap, using their Disable Trap skill. This skill check is more difficult and based on the trap type, which will be random and unknown to the player. There is a greater chance the trap will trigger. There is also a chance for a skill-up for the scout upon success. I would suggest that scout pets get disable trap at one half the skill of a proper scout of their level, thereby making it a much riskier proposition to have a summoner disable a trap than have a genuine scout do it.Disabling the trap removes it from that instance (or in the case of a contested area, removes it for a set period of time).6. In the absence of a scout (or scout-type pet) the trap can be avoided if no-one touches it (size, shape and placement will dictate how difficult this is). It could be walked around, jumped over, flown over (by fae), levitated over when SOE eventually implement levitaton . Whatever, just so long as you don't TOUCH IT! Or it can be triggered on purpose. Any player, charmed mob or pet that comes into contact with the trap ~ or perhaps even destroying the trap using magic damage ~ can trigger the trap. However, the results of triggering the trap will be unknown until the trap is triggered and this time around there's no telling what could happen!!7. People may find that certain classes may have advantages over others when triggering traps, but that is wholly dependant on the trap type, which would be entirely random.8. Trap types could be explosive with a random area of effect; an alarum summoning nearby mobs; magically summoning mob(s); falling ceilings; random group teleport ~ or not so random ~ or other magic effects/stuns/mezzes with random aoe sizes. The random aoe size means that a group could rarely be absolutely sure of being out of range, if sending just one party member to trigger the trap, and even then, it might not be an explosive-type trap! Damage from traps could be deadly once more, with possible reductions for AGI or Mitigation.I think this would spice things up nicely. Giving more opportunities to skill-up the 2nd worse skill to max: disable trap. While applying reasons to use otherwise useless skills/spells: infra-vision (and sonic vision) and possess minion.I'm sure it's all quite rough and ready, and with more input could perhaps integrate with other under-utilised skills.Feel free to twist it into whatever shape you like. __________________

10-14-2007, 11:51 AM	#123
Sapphirius Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,399	You know, I actually like those ideas for traps. Perhaps you could start a new thread to address it? __________________ Decorating is 1% inspiration, 9% work, and 90% tweaking. I've spent many an hour just moving things I've placed an inch or so over "that-a-way."

10-14-2007, 02:34 PM	#124
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	I like Wolfie's trap ideas, too. Now, could we maybe put them in a thread of their own, rather than burying them in this utterly moot argument about whether or not mobs in SoF can or should see thru stealth/invis? & maybe, while we're at it, lock this particular thread, as it's not especially relevant any more? __________________

10-14-2007, 06:02 PM	#125
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Flaye@Mistmoore wrote: I like Wolfie's trap ideas, too. Now, could we maybe put them in a thread of their own, rather than burying them in this utterly moot argument about whether or not mobs in SoF can or should see thru stealth/invis? & maybe, while we're at it, lock this particular thread, as it's not especially relevant any more? It's not really an idea....EQ1 had traps.As a rogue in EQ1 the traps were not challenging...they were annoying.

10-15-2007, 08:56 PM	#126
Magic General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In front of my computer Posts: 359	As for the Shard of Fear zone being easy, none of my toons are high enough to hunt there yet. But being a soloist, I prefer zones where mobs can't detect me when invis or stealthed. So I'd say leave it that way. On another point already introduced into the thread, I agree with giving us three options (solo, group, or epic) and it should apply to every zone at the time of zoning into it. The loot should be scaled to the zone's chosen difficulty too. The one thing that I don't want to see is the levels of the mobs scaled to me. Whatever their numeric levels are now should remain the same but the additional tags such as heroic and the number of arrows should scale to the difficulty level chosen for that zone. For example, in the Commonlands is mob named Gustfeather. In the solo version it should be level 25 without arrows. In the group version it should be level 25^ or so. In the epic version it should be level 25^^^ epic x 4 or so. Note that everyone in the group version of the zone would be looking for a group. That would make grouping much easier, would it not? Maybe in addition SOE should disable the grouping functions while in the solo version of every zone so that everyone remains true to the solo option. I motion to add this feature to all zones! __________________ Soloist addicted to finding fabled gear.

10-15-2007, 09:25 PM	#127
Sapphirius Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,399	Magical wrote: Note that everyone in the group version of the zone would be looking for a group. That would make grouping much easier, would it not? Maybe in addition SOE should disable the grouping functions while in the solo version of every zone so that everyone remains true to the solo option. I motion to add this feature to all zones! Heavens no. People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible. Not to mention, this was done in another MMO, and the encounters sucked as far as quality was concerned. I motion this idea die a quick and speedy death. Most of the overland is solo as it is. Here. Here's a listing of some of the soloable instances in the game. For all that is sacred, SOE, please don't even think about making every single zone in the game scalable like this. The way the zones are now is perfect. Overland is soloable; dungeons groupable; instances a mix of solo, group, and raid. __________________ Decorating is 1% inspiration, 9% work, and 90% tweaking. I've spent many an hour just moving things I've placed an inch or so over "that-a-way."

10-16-2007, 06:04 AM	#128
Killerbee3000 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: right behind you Posts: 1,802	the trap idea isnt exactly new... most offline rpg's (nwm for example) have such traps.... but, hey why not? no need to reinvent the wheel i approve the idea of traps. __________________ Whiskers without loosing Eyes in '08!

10-16-2007, 12:25 PM	#129
Crib92 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Here nor there Posts: 320	A poster 3 or 4 pages ago hit on a great idea and one that I agree with. ALL mobs should have an opportunity to see invis/stealth. With Scout mobs having a greater opportunity to do so. This way, you have an opportunity as a Scout to get to where you need to go, but not guaranteed. (Like failure rate on FD) IMO, if you play a game with no risk then you will quickly become bored. I personally would love to see heroic content scale up considerably, because I'm tired of having to fight mobs 5 levels over me to be challenged. I remember going into POA at 64 cause everything else was too easy... (In treasured/Legendary) The original HOF was perfect, too sad what they did to that zone.

10-16-2007, 03:29 PM	#130
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	Why not a disable trap solution similar to crafting? You get 2 or 4 progress bars.. progress and success chance.. you have skills you have to actively use to get past the trap. Just making it a skill check is boring Oh, i have to go grind a few instances to find traps and get my skill up.. vs.. "Wait! Hold up everyone, a trap! Let me get out my tool kit and disarm it.. " clickclickclickclickclick.. ah crap.. everyone move back, pre heal me!! boom See.. now THAT sounds like a.. uhm.. blast.. to me

10-17-2007, 05:53 AM	#131
Sapphirius Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,399	Bozidar wrote: "Wait! Hold up everyone, a trap! Let me get out my tool kit and disarm it.. " clickclickclickclickclick.. ah crap.. everyone move back, pre heal me!! boom See.. now THAT sounds like a.. uhm.. blast.. to me " width="15" height="15" /> [Removed for Content]! __________________ Decorating is 1% inspiration, 9% work, and 90% tweaking. I've spent many an hour just moving things I've placed an inch or so over "that-a-way."

10-18-2007, 02:28 PM	#132
Dirty Jack Rackham Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 326	MrWolfie wrote: Hopefully, some better things:My ideas for traps:3. Anyone using infra-vision (maybe sonic-vision too) will also be able to see a trap, in the same blue graphic. Infra-vision is heat based. Most traps would be at ambient "room" temperature and there for the same temperatue as the surrounding rocks, dirt, grass, walls, ect. Sonic-vision is "supposedly" motion based. Unless the trap is moving then there should be zero possibility seeing it. Perhaps ultra-vision? __________________ Ranger down... R.I.P. Belara of Lucan D'Lere, beloved avatar of D.J. Rackham Born: Arpil 20, 2005 Died: April 03, 2010 Cause of Death: Years of mishandling and bungled half arsed attempts at "balancing" the Ranger class on the whims of various EQ 2 developers who don't have a clue what we're about and couldn't care less what the Ranger community as a whole has to say. So long and thanks for all the fish.

10-18-2007, 06:13 PM	#133
Magic General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In front of my computer Posts: 359	Sapphirius wrote: ... People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible... What you say doesn't make sense to me, but that's not to say that you're wrong. However, I'd settle for a separate server for soloists. We have servers for PvP and other variants already. __________________ Soloist addicted to finding fabled gear.

10-18-2007, 06:34 PM	#134
Magic General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In front of my computer Posts: 359	Dirty Jack Rackham wrote: Infra-vision is heat based. Most traps would be at ambient "room" temperature and there for the same temperatue as the surrounding rocks, dirt, grass, walls, ect. Sonic-vision is "supposedly" motion based. Unless the trap is moving then there should be zero possibility seeing it. Perhaps ultra-vision? I'm not so sure about all of that. Ultravision has to do with light just above visible light in frequency. Unless the trap is giving off ultraviolet light, ultravision won't work. It may be possible for a magically-triggered trap to give off this energy. A trip wire trap would be visible to sonicvision when a breeze makes the wire vibrate. A proximity trap might use ultrasonic waves and might be detectable with sonicvision. If it uses magic then ultravision might do it. A pressure plate trap would be more difficult to detect but not impossible. Since the plate would be suspended apart from the surrounding ground material, temperature changes would occur at a different rate. For example, if a room suddenly were to get warmer or cooler, the pressure plate would reach the new temperature sooner than the surrounding material. Infravision would detect this. But having said all of this, I'd rather not have traps. Those of us who solo would get mighty ticked off about traps if we aren't the trap-sniffing class. It's bad enough to have our health almost at zero when we manage to run away from a group of mobs. It's quite another to get killed by a trap that we couldn't possibly detect along our route. __________________ Soloist addicted to finding fabled gear.

10-19-2007, 07:30 PM	#135
Sapphirius Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,399	Magical wrote: Sapphirius wrote: ... People would stay in the solo zones all day where they wouldn't be allowed to form groups and then only go to the group zones when they managed to pull a group together. Making every single zone in EQ2 like this would make getting a group nearly impossible... What you say doesn't make sense to me, but that's not to say that you're wrong. However, I'd settle for a separate server for soloists. We have servers for PvP and other variants already. Somehow, I'm not surprised that it doesn't make sense to you. Having a seperate server just for soloists is as bad an idea as making every single zone scalable to solo, group, and raid. __________________ Decorating is 1% inspiration, 9% work, and 90% tweaking. I've spent many an hour just moving things I've placed an inch or so over "that-a-way."