Wow, Paladin help please, aggro,mt,ot, overwhelmed

[NANEEJE]

Hey, thanks for replying in advance, I am having a blast, so much fun infact it's getting scary. I'm addicted.

I read sooooo much about how paladins need to have dps and take aggro and everything, and i can understand that, so i geared up, got adept 3 , master 1 of some, and a 18.9 rating 1hs, (1hs with adept 3 bash is nice). But holy cow, I got in a group last night, there was 6 of us, 2 tanks, 2 healers a wizzie and myself, I applied all my stuff like i was told to take aggro, now keep in mind, i am a 21 and I am grouped with 23-24 people, i am the lowest. So every time i did anything, the mob came after me, everytime. i even stopped using intervene and that, and i still got nailed. I have the least amount of power and health than anyone im sure, so what can i do to stop taking  a beating and dying, which i dont mind by the way, but why should the 21 be dying,(healers did their best i think, my bar just went from green to yellow to red to dead instantly.) How do you take aggro off is one question, and I would lovvve to get a little more advice on which spells really do work the best, we get such a variety that it is painful to try to figure out which one to use, i layed hands twice on the healer, and it just doesnt seem usual, is it possible that the tanks were really just leveling? not really good equipment and such.? What i mean by spells, is there an order that they should be applied to take aggro, right now i am using a macro for

assisting tank/ intervene/divine wrath/ prayer of mending, and then i start using crying of conviction and others, and as soon as i hit intervene, wow does it work, also when i solo, i use this macro

righteous blow, crying of conviction, paladins aid, then throw in the heroics with those spells. lots of fun, but is that the right choice?

ok, so help me figure out the differencein gear for a mt, ot, what do you gear up to be a main tank, and if you are supposed to be an off tank, what do you gear down?

if your role is to be dps, should i equip my 1hs with bash when i am main tanking and off tanking?

IF my role is to be a healer, I read on other posts that i need to have my wisdom up, so I have a great wisdom addition for my ranged slot, I am getting close to figuring this out, just need some extra input. Thanks guys.

 Also a little help from non paladins on what they expect to see, I am progressing nicely, i just want to be that guy that the groups say, "hey Najeene is here, we want him!" I must be doing ok cause i get tells often to go to sh and group up in bb and such. what do you want to see out of a paladin?

[Hamervelder]

The most important thing to remember, is that you can't do it all.  It would be nigh impossible, especially this early in the game, for you to carry around enough gear, or have enough AA's, to be able to fulfill a myriad of roles to a high degree of proficiency.  I'd recommend picking one major role and do whatever you can to get better at it.  For example, when my SK was a paladin, I focused on being primarily a healer.  Yes, I could tank, of course, but all of my heals and wards were at least Master I, and that's what I did most of the time.  I  usually duoed with a wizard, so my ability to heal was paramount.  I found that simply focusing on that particular style of play made it easier to do it well, rather than try to master several different styles.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

[Wyrmypops]

First up, I dunno if you're aware, but there's specific class forums so you might get some more directed help in the Paladin forum.

I got one. A Paladin that is, and it does play differently to my Zerker and Monk. What I've found is that the Paladin is the easiest to tank with. The slapping of a buff onto a DPS character to leech their agro is so useful. If the group has no healers then the Paladin can merely concentrate on healing themselves which generates enough agro too. If there's a priest in the group then the Paladin can do the other kind of healing, if the priest os a warder then the Paladin can be ready with a spot heal to address a damage spike, or if the healer is a direct healer then the Paladin can help by applying their ward.

It's considered that of the stances, the best one is situational. Defensive is best when tanking a powerful mob. Whereas Offensive can be beneficial even when tanking for the extra agro the increased DPS would provide. Of course there's little reason off-tanking in defensive.

When off tanking in an attempt at a DPS mode, that ability to siphon hate may or may not be useful. It could be unneccesary, or detrimental. Many of the DPS classes have their own agro management tools, as could the tank - already re-directing agro to whoever is tanking. And party members may have buffs slapped on the tank that benefit them in other aspects of the tanking role making it inefficient for anyone to get agro even if they could survive a few slaps. Then again, if one particular dpser or healer is consistently getting agro and getting offed then it might be prudent to slap your agro siphoning ability on them.

Oh, one helpful thing you can do when not tanking is start up that Heroic Opportunity. At its simplest it gives the tank an extra reason to taunt, closing down that fighter only HO - but often the tank won't have time to think about starting the chain, and the extra buffs and damage generated by a cross-archetype HO chain can be fantastic.

I wouldn't torture yourself though (unless you're a zealot or flagellant kind of paladin ). Group dynamics and agro management are the whole groups concern, not just the tank. There's a truism that if the healers die its the tanks fault, if the tank dies it the healers fault, and if the dps die its their own silly fault.

[knightofround]

Guys, NAJEENE is looking for ways to lose aggro...not gain it...Unfortunately, no plate tanking class has a good way to drop aggro. As long as you have the hate-suck on the beefiest dps in the group (which at lower levels is not always the highest level person), you will be getting aggro, whether you like it or not. If you're trying to offtank, keep the hate-suck up, but simply refrain from casting any AE spells. It's possible for tanks to out-aggro paladins on single target, but there's no way any tank can pull AE aggro off of a paladin.Generally, if you are in a group with another tank, you should be tanking, unless there's a 5+ level gap. (even if you have a lesser amount of HP/mitigate) Mostly because other tanks can go into DPS mode and chug out much more dps...whereas when you enter dps mode, you actually put out LESS dps because you have to stop casting AEs.

[xandez]

sounds like the MT is poor at keeping aggro... you dont have amends (or what ever the name was in the lower lvls, the hate transfer anyway) on, havent you? wards + heals generate lots of aggro too... also, you shield bash generates hate towards you, so avoid using it. And also the taunts, dont even use em to close HO's, just let em pass and switch to defensive stance when you get aggro and take off autoattack for a few secs, just stand there doing nothing (if this helps you getting killed that is) and how the #¤%&&/ couldnt those healers keep you alive?? [Removed for Content]!?  I mean REALLY... what mobs were you doing, any healer should be able to solo heal a tank in this game... a competent healer that is ++Xan

[Hamervelder]

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

I completely disagree with this post.  Holding agro as a crusader, especially as a paladin, is not about dps.  Especially at lower levels when a paladin only has 3 or 4 offensive spells.  Taunts and wards are more effective, and should be the mainstay of a paladin's arsenal.  I never had problems tanking as a paladin.  Ever.  And I didn't do it through DPS.  If you have to go balls-to-the-wall dps to try to hold agro as a crusader, you don't know your class.

[Rast]

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

I completely disagree with this post.  Holding agro as a crusader, especially as a paladin, is not about dps.  Especially at lower levels when a paladin only has 3 or 4 offensive spells.  Taunts and wards are more effective, and should be the mainstay of a paladin's arsenal.  I never had problems tanking as a paladin.  Ever.  And I didn't do it through DPS.  If you have to go balls-to-the-wall dps to try to hold agro as a crusader, you don't know your class.

at lower levels, this is correct.  Once you start running with lvl 70s who are mastered out and the dps differences of the classes are really showing, you are wrong.  DPS IS the end all, be all of agro generation.  DPS will generate more hate than your taunts, more hate than your amends target and more hate than any hate increase buff you have.

If you want proof of that, please follow this example.  At level 70, with Ad3 Clarion Cry, M1 Valorous Dash and M2 Righteousness.  You will generate (assuming NO resists) only around 380 hate per second.  At 2000 dps, your amends target will only generate you 820 hate per second.  With just your amends target and your taunts, you will only generate (leaving out your hate buffs at this point) 1200 hate per second, this will barely be enough to hold hate off of your transfer (who is sitting at 1180 with the transfer), and won't be close to holding what you need to hold agro off of that 2k dpsing ranger in group 3.  And assuming that (which isn't exceedingly high dps btw), you would need to generate another 800 hate, just to stay above them.  Where do you think that hate comes from?  Casting your heals?  Sigil?  No, it comes from your DPS and you'd hae to dps at least 800 to hold agro in that situation (and probably more given ranger spikes).  And that doesn't even count in the amount of times you'll get resisted on your taunts.

As further example of this, on a labs run I MTed just sunday, I could tell you when my dps was up or down by the agro during the fight.  On the ones where I had NO problems, I found I was dpsing in the 800-900 range, on those where I had problems, I was (for some unknown reason) down in the 400-500 range.  Mind you, I still have to tank in defensive due to gear, so I take some serious hits to my ability to hit...

I can tell you from experience, DPS is the ultimate in holding agro.  1 pt of damage = 1 hate.  nothing out there will give that kind of return, in that volume.

[Hamervelder]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

I completely disagree with this post.  Holding agro as a crusader, especially as a paladin, is not about dps.  Especially at lower levels when a paladin only has 3 or 4 offensive spells.  Taunts and wards are more effective, and should be the mainstay of a paladin's arsenal.  I never had problems tanking as a paladin.  Ever.  And I didn't do it through DPS.  If you have to go balls-to-the-wall dps to try to hold agro as a crusader, you don't know your class.

at lower levels, this is correct.  Once you start running with lvl 70s who are mastered out and the dps differences of the classes are really showing, you are wrong.  DPS IS the end all, be all of agro generation.  DPS will generate more hate than your taunts, more hate than your amends target and more hate than any hate increase buff you have.

If you want proof of that, please follow this example.  At level 70, with Ad3 Clarion Cry, M1 Valorous Dash and M2 Righteousness.  You will generate (assuming NO resists) only around 380 hate per second.  At 2000 dps, your amends target will only generate you 820 hate per second.  With just your amends target and your taunts, you will only generate (leaving out your hate buffs at this point) 1200 hate per second, this will barely be enough to hold hate off of your transfer (who is sitting at 1180 with the transfer), and won't be close to holding what you need to hold agro off of that 2k dpsing ranger in group 3.  And assuming that (which isn't exceedingly high dps btw), you would need to generate another 800 hate, just to stay above them.  Where do you think that hate comes from?  Casting your heals?  Sigil?  No, it comes from your DPS and you'd hae to dps at least 800 to hold agro in that situation (and probably more given ranger spikes).  And that doesn't even count in the amount of times you'll get resisted on your taunts.

As further example of this, on a labs run I MTed just sunday, I could tell you when my dps was up or down by the agro during the fight.  On the ones where I had NO problems, I found I was dpsing in the 800-900 range, on those where I had problems, I was (for some unknown reason) down in the 400-500 range.  Mind you, I still have to tank in defensive due to gear, so I take some serious hits to my ability to hit...

I can tell you from experience, DPS is the ultimate in holding agro.  1 pt of damage = 1 hate.  nothing out there will give that kind of return, in that volume.

There's no way you're going to dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes.  Ever.  It may help, and it would be silly not to use your offensive spells, but dps isn't the be all, end all, of holding agro.

[Rast]

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

I completely disagree with this post.  Holding agro as a crusader, especially as a paladin, is not about dps.  Especially at lower levels when a paladin only has 3 or 4 offensive spells.  Taunts and wards are more effective, and should be the mainstay of a paladin's arsenal.  I never had problems tanking as a paladin.  Ever.  And I didn't do it through DPS.  If you have to go balls-to-the-wall dps to try to hold agro as a crusader, you don't know your class.

at lower levels, this is correct.  Once you start running with lvl 70s who are mastered out and the dps differences of the classes are really showing, you are wrong.  DPS IS the end all, be all of agro generation.  DPS will generate more hate than your taunts, more hate than your amends target and more hate than any hate increase buff you have.

If you want proof of that, please follow this example.  At level 70, with Ad3 Clarion Cry, M1 Valorous Dash and M2 Righteousness.  You will generate (assuming NO resists) only around 380 hate per second.  At 2000 dps, your amends target will only generate you 820 hate per second.  With just your amends target and your taunts, you will only generate (leaving out your hate buffs at this point) 1200 hate per second, this will barely be enough to hold hate off of your transfer (who is sitting at 1180 with the transfer), and won't be close to holding what you need to hold agro off of that 2k dpsing ranger in group 3.  And assuming that (which isn't exceedingly high dps btw), you would need to generate another 800 hate, just to stay above them.  Where do you think that hate comes from?  Casting your heals?  Sigil?  No, it comes from your DPS and you'd hae to dps at least 800 to hold agro in that situation (and probably more given ranger spikes).  And that doesn't even count in the amount of times you'll get resisted on your taunts.

As further example of this, on a labs run I MTed just sunday, I could tell you when my dps was up or down by the agro during the fight.  On the ones where I had NO problems, I found I was dpsing in the 800-900 range, on those where I had problems, I was (for some unknown reason) down in the 400-500 range.  Mind you, I still have to tank in defensive due to gear, so I take some serious hits to my ability to hit...

I can tell you from experience, DPS is the ultimate in holding agro.  1 pt of damage = 1 hate.  nothing out there will give that kind of return, in that volume.

There's no way you're going to dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes.  Ever.  It may help, and it would be silly not to use your offensive spells, but dps isn't the be all, end all, of holding agro.

Wrong, it IS the end all be all.  And yes, you can dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes and you can do it without giving up on your tanking ability.  In most raid situations, your dps WILL be your highest agro generating ability, especially coupled with your hate buffs from a dirge.

The big difference is, you can improve your DPS without crimping your tanking, you can do absolutely nothing about your taunts, they are what they are and they are rather low in their effectiveness given the bigger picture of dps numbers.  When the raid is hitting for the 28k+ range, you better hope your tank is doing 1.5 - 1.8k dps himself or there will be no raid to hold agro from (as they will all be taking dirt naps)

[Hamervelder]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

I completely disagree with this post.  Holding agro as a crusader, especially as a paladin, is not about dps.  Especially at lower levels when a paladin only has 3 or 4 offensive spells.  Taunts and wards are more effective, and should be the mainstay of a paladin's arsenal.  I never had problems tanking as a paladin.  Ever.  And I didn't do it through DPS.  If you have to go balls-to-the-wall dps to try to hold agro as a crusader, you don't know your class.

at lower levels, this is correct.  Once you start running with lvl 70s who are mastered out and the dps differences of the classes are really showing, you are wrong.  DPS IS the end all, be all of agro generation.  DPS will generate more hate than your taunts, more hate than your amends target and more hate than any hate increase buff you have.

If you want proof of that, please follow this example.  At level 70, with Ad3 Clarion Cry, M1 Valorous Dash and M2 Righteousness.  You will generate (assuming NO resists) only around 380 hate per second.  At 2000 dps, your amends target will only generate you 820 hate per second.  With just your amends target and your taunts, you will only generate (leaving out your hate buffs at this point) 1200 hate per second, this will barely be enough to hold hate off of your transfer (who is sitting at 1180 with the transfer), and won't be close to holding what you need to hold agro off of that 2k dpsing ranger in group 3.  And assuming that (which isn't exceedingly high dps btw), you would need to generate another 800 hate, just to stay above them.  Where do you think that hate comes from?  Casting your heals?  Sigil?  No, it comes from your DPS and you'd hae to dps at least 800 to hold agro in that situation (and probably more given ranger spikes).  And that doesn't even count in the amount of times you'll get resisted on your taunts.

As further example of this, on a labs run I MTed just sunday, I could tell you when my dps was up or down by the agro during the fight.  On the ones where I had NO problems, I found I was dpsing in the 800-900 range, on those where I had problems, I was (for some unknown reason) down in the 400-500 range.  Mind you, I still have to tank in defensive due to gear, so I take some serious hits to my ability to hit...

I can tell you from experience, DPS is the ultimate in holding agro.  1 pt of damage = 1 hate.  nothing out there will give that kind of return, in that volume.

There's no way you're going to dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes.  Ever.  It may help, and it would be silly not to use your offensive spells, but dps isn't the be all, end all, of holding agro.

Wrong, it IS the end all be all.  And yes, you can dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes and you can do it without giving up on your tanking ability.  In most raid situations, your dps WILL be your highest agro generating ability, especially coupled with your hate buffs from a dirge.

The big difference is, you can improve your DPS without crimping your tanking, you can do absolutely nothing about your taunts, they are what they are and they are rather low in their effectiveness given the bigger picture of dps numbers.  When the raid is hitting for the 28k+ range, you better hope your tank is doing 1.5 - 1.8k dps himself or there will be no raid to hold agro from (as they will all be taking dirt naps)

Whatever you say.  You obviously know it all.  /bows out.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

You realize you are giving endgame raid advice to a level 20.  Context, people. " />If you are level 20, and taking agro from higher level players, that's promising from a damage perspective, but you don't want to get more agro than you can handle.  Dying is not good.  The healers are going to be especially slow to heal you in a low level pickup group when you are not the main tank.  In this case, I suggest 1H + shield in offensive, and keep yourself alive with a ward and heal.  If you're still in danger of dying, back off the damage.You might want to make sure you know which abilities add to your hate.  Be careful of AE'ing additional enemies that the group is not fighting.Watch out for gray con mobs with a red outline.  They will still attack you, but not the rest of the group.

[Demoley]

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote:

Atelos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Focus on doing as much damage as you can to start with.

If you can't dps, you can't hold aggro, and if you can't hold aggro, you can't tank.

Plus at lower levels, it's all about fast killing for exp.

I completely disagree with this post.  Holding agro as a crusader, especially as a paladin, is not about dps.  Especially at lower levels when a paladin only has 3 or 4 offensive spells.  Taunts and wards are more effective, and should be the mainstay of a paladin's arsenal.  I never had problems tanking as a paladin.  Ever.  And I didn't do it through DPS.  If you have to go balls-to-the-wall dps to try to hold agro as a crusader, you don't know your class.

at lower levels, this is correct.  Once you start running with lvl 70s who are mastered out and the dps differences of the classes are really showing, you are wrong.  DPS IS the end all, be all of agro generation.  DPS will generate more hate than your taunts, more hate than your amends target and more hate than any hate increase buff you have.

If you want proof of that, please follow this example.  At level 70, with Ad3 Clarion Cry, M1 Valorous Dash and M2 Righteousness.  You will generate (assuming NO resists) only around 380 hate per second.  At 2000 dps, your amends target will only generate you 820 hate per second.  With just your amends target and your taunts, you will only generate (leaving out your hate buffs at this point) 1200 hate per second, this will barely be enough to hold hate off of your transfer (who is sitting at 1180 with the transfer), and won't be close to holding what you need to hold agro off of that 2k dpsing ranger in group 3.  And assuming that (which isn't exceedingly high dps btw), you would need to generate another 800 hate, just to stay above them.  Where do you think that hate comes from?  Casting your heals?  Sigil?  No, it comes from your DPS and you'd hae to dps at least 800 to hold agro in that situation (and probably more given ranger spikes).  And that doesn't even count in the amount of times you'll get resisted on your taunts.

As further example of this, on a labs run I MTed just sunday, I could tell you when my dps was up or down by the agro during the fight.  On the ones where I had NO problems, I found I was dpsing in the 800-900 range, on those where I had problems, I was (for some unknown reason) down in the 400-500 range.  Mind you, I still have to tank in defensive due to gear, so I take some serious hits to my ability to hit...

I can tell you from experience, DPS is the ultimate in holding agro.  1 pt of damage = 1 hate.  nothing out there will give that kind of return, in that volume.

There's no way you're going to dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes.  Ever.  It may help, and it would be silly not to use your offensive spells, but dps isn't the be all, end all, of holding agro.

Wrong, it IS the end all be all.  And yes, you can dps hard enough to hold agro against DPS classes and you can do it without giving up on your tanking ability.  In most raid situations, your dps WILL be your highest agro generating ability, especially coupled with your hate buffs from a dirge.

The big difference is, you can improve your DPS without crimping your tanking, you can do absolutely nothing about your taunts, they are what they are and they are rather low in their effectiveness given the bigger picture of dps numbers.  When the raid is hitting for the 28k+ range, you better hope your tank is doing 1.5 - 1.8k dps himself or there will be no raid to hold agro from (as they will all be taking dirt naps)

Whatever you say.  You obviously know it all.  /bows out.

you ever tried holding aggro with 50k raid dps while not dpsing? its not possible, you have to to go balls to the wall otherwise you will be laughed at

[Rocksthemic]

Dps will help a lot, but as they said it is high end. Also... the ratio of aggro gained from taunts is more than 1/1 ratio like dps is. It numerically HAS to be that way, because even with a tank (talking at lvl 70 here) doing 2k dps, having amends on someone who is doing 3k dps, you're not gonna keep aggro without taunting. Auto attack won't do it alone.

[Buzzing]

Ward

pull mob and taunt as he gets to you

mash him with all you combat arts until you get him into place

cast your spells

ward

mash some more along side your spells and taunt (yes all of them) until dead

rinse wash repeat

[Willian]

Ok, I have a question. I've took 4months off and I want to  roll a new toon, but Im not sure which one I want a Paladin or a Zerker. Can someone please tell me which will do more DPS in both PVP & PVE. THank you in advance.

[Buzzing]

if all you are looking for is dps then the zerker is much higher

[Willian]

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

if all you are looking for is dps then the zerker is much higher

Ok, thank you. How does the Paladin fair in PvP against other tanks?

[xandez]

Willian wrote:

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

if all you are looking for is dps then the zerker is much higher

Ok, thank you. How does the Paladin fair in PvP against other tanks?

well, how do you think?tank vs tank... oh wait, paladins have wards + heals (ok so have SK:s and monks have heal too)but i still think tank vs tank, the paladin & SK are kings++Xan

[Erithorn]

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Ward

pull mob and taunt as he gets to you

mash him with all you combat arts until you get him into place

cast your spells

ward

mash some more along side your spells and taunt (yes all of them) until dead

rinse wash repeat

 

EXACTLY!   Nuff said....

Asarum