Sony forums vs eq2flames

[Metran]

TaleraRis wrote:

LFG wrote:

You have to ask questions to get a response.  Devs don't publish treatises on game issues, they respond to what they read, and usually only to comments that aren't disrespectful.  Did you post this same question on this site, or are you just reacting to the fact no player asked a similar question on this site?

We do ask the questions here too, though. We had an ongoing thread at one point in the ranger forums about issues that we were trying to make known and give as much information about them as possible. When issues would come up, we would post our opinions about them in constructive ways, with as I said prior, the idea that we were to keep our opinions respectful. But it's always been very hard even when we're respectful to get answers to the questions we pose. When developers only answer the questions on these outside sites and not the same questions when posed here, well, it doesn't give a lot of confidence that they really care or want our opinions.

The underlying assumption in your post suggests that you believe all questions are answered on Eq2flames.  Take a look at the inquisitor forums on both these forums and those of EQ2flames, the number of posts/threads discussing the problems with the EoF AAs.  Specifically, E: Fanatacism and how broken it is.  The posts in both forums have been respectful, trying to get answers as to a time line when the problems with the subclass AAs will actually be addressed.  Unfortunately with 24 classes all having issues, it is difficult to get answers to all the questions or problems that the players seek. 

I believe one of the reasons an answer was brought up on the consolidation issue, is because this is a concept that they are toying with implementing and if they are to follow through with it, would like to get it as right as possible.  The spell consolidation thread that was replied to, is 25 pages long, showing a relative degree of interest on a concept that the devs are looking into short and long term.  Since spell consolidation is on their current development timeline, it is only natural that in a discussion about said topic, that a dev would post on the type of feedback he would like to see.

In an ideal world, every question, with a large degree of interest would be answered, but that would take up a lot of bandwidth of any dev to take the time to answer them and still get around to developping.  When the dev is currently working on something and discussion on said topic coincides, it is much easier to get the answers that are sought out.  There is a reason that Eq2flames also has the dev tracker to this site; simply put, all answers are not to be found on EQ2flames.

[USAFJeeper]

I post on EQ2Flames.  I am not a hardcore raider.  I am a casual raider.  I like quests, dont like tradeskills, and long walks on the beach are a fave.

 On EQ2 Flames we spend 30 pages chewing an issue and eventually come to a sort of agreement on broader concepts there.  The way we arrive at those consensus' would not be allowed here.  And it shouldnt!

I used to read the ranger boards here, no longer.  They do not meet my needs with endless parroting of the same things over and over.  And no I do not want to be a Beastlord, please remove the charm animal AA.

[erin]

I've been reading EQ2Flames for a long time, months at least, but I'm terrified of posting there.  Why? I'm a casual gamer, and the people over there seem to feel that if you don't squeeze every last nuance out of your character you are worthless and shouldn't post.  I'm not just saying that, I've read virtually that statement over there again and again.  Basically I feel that if you aren't a hardcore raider, you aren't welcome over there.  That's ok, I find the information over there often helpful, but yes, very slanted.  Yes raiders do quest, tradeskill, solo etc, but it isn't their passion, and its quite clear that the forums over there are all about raiding, about maxing your character.  Good info when you can get through all the ridiculous flame fests.  Not much different than here really   So I won't ever post over there, I'd get ripped to shreds in seconds, and that holds no enjoyment for me.  That doesn't mean I don't think its a good site, its just very specialized.  Heck I read one guy saying that if you aren't a hardcore raider at the top of your class, you should not only never post in the class forums, you should have your posts deleted, and others agreed with him.  Not someplace I want to be posting, that's for sure, I don't consider myself anywhere near hardcore But as far as devs posting anything over there that they don't also do over here, unless its a purely raid related issue, which this one isn't, they SHOULD double post on both forums.  On 10 forums, whatever.  Get the opinions of a wide variety of people.  This forum tends towards the more casual players, IMHO, eq2flames is clearly raid oriented, there's others that are tradeskill oriented, etc.  Why shouldn't the devs cross post when its a wide issue like changing spells?  It affects the whole community, not just raiders or casuals...

[kevinlunt]

erin wrote:

Heck I read one guy saying that if you aren't a hardcore raider at the top of your class, you should not only never post in the class forums, you should have your posts deleted, and others agreed with him.

I think what you're talking about is someone saying that if you don't bother to read the extensive write ups people have made, and just ask the same questions that have all been answered ...like people do over here... then you should have your posts deleted.  Harsh, yes, but with all the tips already laid our for you, there isn't any reason for them to act any other way.  People over there won't hold your hand.

[BChizzle]

Flames is pretty fun for some of us.  The making fun of stuff blasting people and uncensored flaming that goes on caters to the people who enjoy that sort of humor.  Nobody is forcing you to go there but if you ever feel the need to just get something off your chest it is great for that as well as having a collective that really knows this game well.  Its funny that people complain about getting banned here on these boards or whatever or talk about wow that aren't letting soandso word get through the filter when you have an appropriate place to all out act how you will just clicks away. So if you have the ability not to take words on a forum too seriously, have a issue you just need to get off your chest, shoot on over.  And if you get ripped on when you first get there remember its all in fun and in no time you'll fit right in. I for one really like that our devs take the time to visit fansites.  And lets remember they are people too and if they are on flames is cause they think its fun there too.

[MaxXNos]

Something worth pointing out that no one seems to have thought of: maybe the dev posted on eq2flames because they knew/believed/thought they would get a more relevant response to the issue there?  Maybe the dev knows something about the changes that we don't, and because of this information it possibly makes the changes only or at least more relevant to raiders? And please no one read what I just typed and start claiming that I said the changes are only relevant to raiders.  I didn't say that. Some people on here seem far too ready to jump all over raiders and bash them for not caring about solo/casual gameplay, yet it seems to me those people do exactly the same by focusing entirely on solo/casual and not caring about raiding.  They shouldn't ask others to do something they're not willing to do themselves. If a dev posts on eq2flames, don't get upset about it; if it's the issue you're concerned about, then you got a response.  Maybe not on the forums you wanted it on, but getting upset over that is unreasonable. Getting upset because a dev posted on eq2flames is silly; they don't belong to you, they have every right to post on other websites. Getting upset because a dev actively sought out the un-moderated, un-filtered opinions of raiders is hypocritical.  Yes there are posters on eq2flames who don't give a flip whatsoever about solo/casual, but they don't honestly expect SOE to only seek out their opinions on changes to the game.  That is, however, the attitude I'm seeing from solo/casual players here.  If you honestly care about the game, then understand that the devs are going to cover all aspects of the game, including those you do not partake in. Also, if it's that big a deal about the dev posting on flames, why not ask the dev about it?  Why not ask them why they didn't also post here?  Why the need to bash LFG and flames and raiders?

[L]

erin wrote:

I've been reading EQ2Flames for a long time, months at least, but I'm terrified of posting there.  Why? I'm a casual gamer, and the people over there seem to feel that if you don't squeeze every last nuance out of your character you are worthless and shouldn't post.

I's sincerely sorry you feel that way.  I am the admin of that site but have only been playing part time for months, and only raid twice a week anymore based on employment reasons. I regularly post my own questions there in the form of "seeking an answer to something I know nothing about."  In my experience, it is very rare anyone will be rude to you on EQ2Flames or any other site if you admit what you don't know up front and ask polite questions.  People who are arrogant, rude, or who exaggerate or over state their knowledge or qualifications about an issue are usually the ones who incur the wrath of other posters on forums like EQ2Flames.  Less than "leet" players who are forthright, honest and who don't start with a chip on their shoulder or act more knowledgeable about a subject than they are often post basic questions there, and are more likely to receive a well informed answer than to be flamed in response. It's more about expecting others to treat you as you treat them, not whether you are in a hardcore raiding guild, although I admit that is the main interest of a great number of our users.  Even people like Calthine, who mainly posts in the crafting section on this site, sometimes posts on EQ2Flames, and I rarely see anyone act rudely toward her.

[firza]

to add to what LFG just said, I see more and more "casual" players posting questions on EQ2flames. They exclusively get the correct answers to their questions within a very short time.

I am not a HC raider. I have to ask for info, because I do not have the time to test anything out myself. There are some really good people posting on these boards who could probably give all the info I would need. However when I read the class forums here I often also find people posting information thats either plain incorrect, missing the point, or confusing. This is rather limited on eq2flames.

For me the difference between flames and here is that here I often have to sigh when I read a post. There the sighing is reduced to a bare minimum. (and I am sure I make people sigh both here and there &nbsp

[Lariu]

EQFlames is not exclusive to the hardcore raiders, and for those people who aren't at the top of their class, it's a great place to get information from the people who are. The more aggressive areas of the forum are only something you participate in if you choose to.

As for the raider-v-casual thing, I don't see why there's so much distrust from the casual community. When the person posting is an extremely dedicated player who's been playing for years, every day of the week and has tweaked and examined every area of the class he/she is talking about, don't you think that their point of view is likely to be an enlightened one? Also, with that much dedication, the truely hardcore players really love their class and want to see the right changes being made to make it as fun to play as possible. These are good things for the casuals as well as the raiders.

So basically, to the people who appear to be terrified of flames, why not have a look around the class forums and see the kind of information that's being posted? It's the best players in the world who are posting their opinions/advice, you might just learn some really useful stuff.

[Kenazeer]

Ok. For anyone who wants to post on EQ2Flames, but feels intimidated...Follow these simple rules and you should be ok.

1) If you want answers to questions, be sure to give some effort and search around first (Much like here where people will respond about using the search function). People over there will answer your questions, but they like to see a little individual effort.

2) Know what you don't know, and never be afraid to admit your lack of knowledge. Unless you have earned the right to have an ego through demonstrated knowldedge and/or accomplishments, leave your hubris at the door.

3) Always be careful to differentiate between posting your opinion and facts.

4) Develop an "[I cannot control my vocabulary]" filter and ignore the people who are confrontational for no reason. You need to have a little thicker skin over there, but you will only be offended as much as you let yourself be.

[Lariu]

I've never been spoken to like that on flames, even when I've been making fun of someone I've not received abuse, even from guilds we're in competition with.

I really think the only people who get drawn into the flame fests are the people who look for it. Other than that, flames is where you go for decent info - although some of the best players also answer questions on the official forums too (but you have to sift through loads of stupid answers too on the official forums, unfortunately).

I agree with 1-3, I don't agree with 4 because I dont' believe anyone gets abuse there without deserving it and following 1-3 will avoid the need for 4

[MeridianR]

As stated in the post a couple above mine, if you come to eq2flames with an open mind you are not going to get made fun of, or ridiculed because you might not 'know everything'. If you come to the forum and preach that you KNOW this is the answer, and everyone else is wrong - then people are going to call you on it.  By the same token if you went to say the NGD, or Tradeskill board here you would probably get called out or flamed for posting something either incorrect - or just trolling, etc. Sure some people on eq2flames are more apt to flame then provide knowledge if they think you asked something that you could have easily found by searching - but the same EXACT thing happens here. One of the posters here was against SK changes - well I am the Paladin moderator on Flames, and I can tell you that most people were totally against BOTH crusader 'group/raid buff' - so it just wasn't you. Again I think more often then not people are surprised at the quality of information that you can get on Flames - but if you are afraid to post, then don't post - just do some searching and see if you can find out a little more information.  Granted if you are younger then 18 the site is probably not for you, due to some themes - BUT - those are mainly on the server class forums, and I would definitely stay away from those forums, if that offends you. Send MeridianR a PM over on Flames if you register and need help finding information - while I might post my fair share of BS - I am more then willing to help new registered users of eq2flames out.

[EvilIguana9]

I have an EQ2flames account because it is another place to give and receive information on this game.  It has it's pros and cons.  On the pro side, of course, is that discussion is pretty much completely uninhibited.  On the con side, well I think most of the people who post there because they were banned here truly deserved what they got.  A number of the most vocal EQ2flames posters are just plain [Removed for Content] with no consideration for other people at all.  A lot of prominent EQ2flames posters seem to also have a persecution complex, because I can find no evidence to back up the assertion that the devs here censor gameplay related opinions.  The problem for these people might just be that they lack the ability to levy negative criticism in a constructive manner. I can, however, appreciate EQ2flames for its positives.  We need a place without all the rules we have here.  For one, there has to be a place to blacklist really crappy players.  MMORPGs are social games, and the way you discourage people from being total pr*cks is by making patterns of anti-social behavior known to the rest of the players.  It's also nice to have a place to post where the forum doesn't illogically censor a number of words that are used by NPCs in the game and well covered under the game's T rating.  The funny thing about EQ2flames is that the creator doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want to be associated with such a site.  LFG seems friendly, reasonable, non-judgmental, and not prone to outbursts of profanity or disrespect. 

[Kenazeer]

EvilIguana966 wrote:

A lot of prominent EQ2flames posters seem to also have a persecution complex, because I can find no evidence to back up the assertion that the devs here censor gameplay related opinions.  The problem for these people might just be that they lack the ability to levy negative criticism in a constructive manner.

I don't think people believe the devs here censor gameplay related opinions; I think they believe their opinions tend to get lost in the discussion. The official forums and EQ2flames both have a spread of posters, and while there are "hardcore" raiders who post here, and  "casuals" who post on EQ2Flames, the general audiences tend to lean in different directions. For the most part, people tend to post where they are comfortable and where there are people of like mind. I think it serves the game well to have different outlets where people can discuss things and the devs can get feedback.

Regarding the ability to constructively levy negative criticism, I don't think EQ2flames has a monopoly on that.  

[erin]

Lariuss wrote:

As for the raider-v-casual thing, I don't see why there's so much distrust from the casual community. When the person posting is an extremely dedicated player who's been playing for years, every day of the week and has tweaked and examined every area of the class he/she is talking about, don't you think that their point of view is likely to be an enlightened one? Also, with that much dedication, the truely hardcore players really love their class and want to see the right changes being made to make it as fun to play as possible. These are good things for the casuals as well as the raiders.

Ah but you are missing a crucial point.  The HC raider types are equipped differently than the casual.  So when someone tells me they are soloing a mob or zone that I have difficulty with in a group of casuals (say 3 people), there's 2 possibilities:  1) they are lying 2) they are equipped in full fabled and masters, and can do a lot of things the rest of us can't So while they may have very valid and useful information, some of it is not applicable to what casual (i.e. poorer equipped) players are capable of.  And thus, the HC raider determining which spells can be removed or combined, what encounters should be tweaked (when not talking raid encounters), etc etc, in other words, using only the HC (i.e. very well equipped) perspective on everything is unwise.  As far as the mistrust, I've seen that since I started playing, many eons ago.  Raider v Casual.  PvP v PvE.  Each group wants to protect their playstyle and sometimes the viewpoints are opposed.  The casual player, for example, wants to be able to do most (not all) of the zones in the game, even with their more casual gear.  The raider wants to progress to harder and harder zones/encounters, and feels put out if the casual player can just jump into the fray.  Its all perfectly reasonable when viewed from each side. But never forget the gear differential, it makes a big difference in viewpoint.  So when I see a HC type talking about the "dumbing down" and about how easy the game has become, I take a look at their gear.  Then I wish to myself that they would try that same "easy" or "dumb" activity wearing treasured/mastercrafted with half ad1 and half ad3 spells, and see how they do. I'm not saying their viewpoint isn't valid, it absolutely is from their perspective, but that doesn't mean they won't accidentally destroy my enjoyment of the game, my playstyle, when tweaking the game towards their playstyle.  Does that make sense?

[Kenazeer]

erin wrote:

Lariuss wrote:

I'm not saying their viewpoint isn't valid, it absolutely is from their perspective, but that doesn't mean they won't accidentally destroy my enjoyment of the game, my playstyle, when tweaking the game towards their playstyle.  Does that make sense?

Absolutely makes sense, and that is why it is important to trust the devs to gather input then make the best decisions for the game as a whole.

[PhroZenAssassin]

erin wrote:

But never forget the gear differential, it makes a big difference in viewpoint.  So when I see a HC type talking about the "dumbing down" and about how easy the game has become, I take a look at their gear.  Then I wish to myself that they would try that same "easy" or "dumb" activity wearing treasured/mastercrafted with half ad1 and half ad3 spells, and see how they do.

That isn't the Hardcore Raiders fault though, that they have sub-par gear, they should put a little more time and effort into getting the easily obtainable masters and farm/buy rares for the adept3's. And gear really isn't everything, there is more to raiding than JUST gear, theres the strategy and co-ordination, the hours and hours it took to work and perfect them, to name a few, then content is dulled down to a point where a guild strolls into lets say Emerald Halls and has thier first sight on Wuoshi and within a few hours has thier first kill with pretty much the same if not better gear than the Hardcore raider that done it months ago with only a few pieces of EoF loot. Sure gear helps, but it isn't everything. Anyways, back on topic, Eq2flames is a great resource, sure you have the flame sections of the board but that's what makes flames, flames. I for one rarely posted on the official forums templar and splitpaw/runnyeye forums because quite simply they where dull and uninteresting, the same cannot be said for Eq2flames in my oppinion.

[Lariu]

erin wrote:

Lariuss wrote:

As for the raider-v-casual thing, I don't see why there's so much distrust from the casual community. When the person posting is an extremely dedicated player who's been playing for years, every day of the week and has tweaked and examined every area of the class he/she is talking about, don't you think that their point of view is likely to be an enlightened one? Also, with that much dedication, the truely hardcore players really love their class and want to see the right changes being made to make it as fun to play as possible. These are good things for the casuals as well as the raiders.

Ah but you are missing a crucial point.  The HC raider types are equipped differently than the casual.  So when someone tells me they are soloing a mob or zone that I have difficulty with in a group of casuals (say 3 people), there's 2 possibilities:  1) they are lying 2) they are equipped in full fabled and masters, and can do a lot of things the rest of us can't So while they may have very valid and useful information, some of it is not applicable to what casual (i.e. poorer equipped) players are capable of.  And thus, the HC raider determining which spells can be removed or combined, what encounters should be tweaked (when not talking raid encounters), etc etc, in other words, using only the HC (i.e. very well equipped) perspective on everything is unwise.  As far as the mistrust, I've seen that since I started playing, many eons ago.  Raider v Casual.  PvP v PvE.  Each group wants to protect their playstyle and sometimes the viewpoints are opposed.  The casual player, for example, wants to be able to do most (not all) of the zones in the game, even with their more casual gear.  The raider wants to progress to harder and harder zones/encounters, and feels put out if the casual player can just jump into the fray.  Its all perfectly reasonable when viewed from each side. But never forget the gear differential, it makes a big difference in viewpoint.  So when I see a HC type talking about the "dumbing down" and about how easy the game has become, I take a look at their gear.  Then I wish to myself that they would try that same "easy" or "dumb" activity wearing treasured/mastercrafted with half ad1 and half ad3 spells, and see how they do. I'm not saying their viewpoint isn't valid, it absolutely is from their perspective, but that doesn't mean they won't accidentally destroy my enjoyment of the game, my playstyle, when tweaking the game towards their playstyle.  Does that make sense?

/sigh there's a lot more depth to those arguments than you realise. And seriously, these are people who want to protect the game, not just their own personal enjoyment.

Oh and last point: Skill > gear. Admittedly you wouldn't want to take one Pumpkinhead with mastercrafted, but skill is a much much bigger factor than gear. I don't know why people fixate on gear so much (apart from jealousy), if you're good and your guildies are good, you can achieve a lot more than you might think.

I think back to running through PoA with a Wizard, an Assassin (me) and a Troubadour. No healer, so we have to bounce aggro between me and the wizard to maximise the use of our hp to compensate for that. These are the kinds of things you can learn to do if you're interested enough to be good at the game. Our gear was ok, but at the time we were raiding lab and lyceum and not a lot else.

If you're genuinely interested in the dumbing down argument, have a look on flames at the threads about the upcoming changes.

[slippery]

erin wrote:

But never forget the gear differential, it makes a big difference in viewpoint.  So when I see a HC type talking about the "dumbing down" and about how easy the game has become, I take a look at their gear.  Then I wish to myself that they would try that same "easy" or "dumb" activity wearing treasured/mastercrafted with half ad1 and half ad3 spells, and see how they do.

Just because someone has a raid toon fully fabled, fully mastered, doesn't mean they don't have other 70 alts in lesser gear that they do things with. The better part of raiders out there have multiple level 70 alts geared in a variety of gear. Just because they have a raid toon doesn't mean they can't see the other side, and it doesn't make their opinion any less valid. Knowing what you are doing and how to play your class is 80% of the battle.

[Gargamel]

I don't mind them posting wherever they want or spreading info.

What I don't like AT ALL is hearing comments like "the community" wants this or "the community" wants that... and the devs having other sites than their own in their mind when they say "the community"

Most recently with the spell consolidation... I keep getting told "the community has demanded this for a long time" and "the community has always complained about the button spam and whack-a-mole" stuff.

I searched and searched and searched for this "community" that wanted all this and couldn't find it anywhere around here.

So many players don't even read the forums... when I try to think about the number of players that frequent a 3rd party forums about the game being described as 'the community', it stings.

At least if I read something on here I disagree (or agree) with I can respond... didn't know I had to be on 'guard' on all these 3rd party sites, else I'd be left out of all these decisions by 'the community'

[Kegofbud]

Seriously, the amount of useful information in posts for the class forums is so watered down here compared to EQ2flames. Here, there is a lot of misinformation. The good information is diluted by speculation, repeated asking of the same questions, and made up numbers. It's basically a lot of lazy posting. If you post like that on Flames, you will be called out and corrected, without fear of moderation. I like that, because I try to never speak outside of what I know to be true and I try to obtain as much information as possible before asking on others.

The only reasons people get flamed on EQ2Flames are: A) You are looking for it, or B) You try to pretend you know more then you do.

Bottom line, if you post in a manner where you are up front, respectful, and knowledgeable, you won't be flamed. If you post thinking you know everything and have nothing to base your opinion on, you'll be picked apart. That is the only reason to be scared of posting there. Use facts and not speculation.

Devs don't post all the time on Flames. They chime in here and there on topics to be helpful to a conversation. They are reading many different boards to obtain information and all playstyles have a voice. With the amount of knowledge from players on Flames, why would you not want that to be a part of the big picture? People there know so much about the core mechanics of the game that many people have no desire to ever learn about. Why? Because they have that need to learn everything about something so that they can understand what they are dealing with in every scenario. If you're one of those people, casual or hardcore, Flames is something you really should check out. You don't have to be a hardcore raider to appreciate the posts on EQ2Flames.

[Kegofbud]

Gargamel wrote:

I don't mind them posting wherever they want or spreading info.

What I don't like AT ALL is hearing comments like "the community" wants this or "the community" wants that... and the devs having other sites than their own in their mind when they say "the community"

Most recently with the spell consolidation... I keep getting told "the community has demanded this for a long time" and "the community has always complained about the button spam and whack-a-mole" stuff.

I searched and searched and searched for this "community" that wanted all this and couldn't find it anywhere around here.

So many players don't even read the forums... when I try to think about the number of players that frequent a 3rd party forums about the game being described as 'the community', it stings.

At least if I read something on here I disagree (or agree) with I can respond... didn't know I had to be on 'guard' on all these 3rd party sites, else I'd be left out of all these decisions by 'the community'

I think you have the wrong idea of what "the community" is. The community isn't one third party site as much as it isn't the official forums here. The community is based out of official forums, third party sites, and (most importantly) in game feedback. You are right, not everyone reads forums. They don't need to read froums to give feedback on what they want from the game. That's what the in game option is for.

As far as being on guard on third party sites...why? The only thing you'd have to be on guard for would be if you try to post something that isn't fact. You're speculating that the third party sites are "the community" in your arguement. Every thread on the offical forums has people asking for things and I doubt you've read every post here to back up your statements, yet I would never claim the official forums are "the community."

[Mabes]

Choatley@Mistmoore wrote:

Seriously, the amount of useful information in posts for the class forums is so watered down here compared to EQ2flames. Here, there is a lot of misinformation. The good information is diluted by speculation, repeated asking of the same questions, and made up numbers. It's basically a lot of lazy posting. If you post like that on Flames, you will be called out and corrected, without fear of moderation. I like that, because I try to never speak outside of what I know to be true and I try to obtain as much information as possible before asking on others.

The only reasons people get flamed on EQ2Flames are: A) You are looking for it, or B) You try to pretend you know more then you do.

Bottom line, if you post in a manner where you are up front, respectful, and knowledgeable, you won't be flamed. If you post thinking you know everything and have nothing to base your opinion on, you'll be picked apart. That is the only reason to be scared of posting there. Use facts and not speculation.

Devs don't post all the time on Flames. They chime in here and there on topics to be helpful to a conversation. They are reading many different boards to obtain information and all playstyles have a voice. With the amount of knowledge from players on Flames, why would you not want that to be a part of the big picture? People there know so much about the core mechanics of the game that many people have no desire to ever learn about. Why? Because they have that need to learn everything about something so that they can understand what they are dealing with in every scenario. If you're one of those people, casual or hardcore, Flames is something you really should check out. You don't have to be a hardcore raider to appreciate the posts on EQ2Flames.

QFE, I've spent an enormous amount of time on both forums throughout EQ2's existence, and I'd have to say Choatley's response sums up eq2flames best.  For people who want to fully maximize the potential of their toons, eq2flames class forums are the most useful source if information imo.  I do try and help people out on both sites, but it does get tedious when the same questions are asked over and over again on the class forums here.

[MaxXNos]

erin wrote:

So while they may have very valid and useful information, some of it is not applicable to what casual (i.e. poorer equipped) players are capable of.  And thus, the HC raider determining which spells can be removed or combined, what encounters should be tweaked (when not talking raid encounters), etc etc, in other words, using only the HC (i.e. very well equipped) perspective on everything is unwise. Most of what's discussed isn't applicable to casual gameplay because it involves balance and strategy on a raid level; the closest thing you'll find to a 1-group raid is Nizara or Unrest, and let's be honest, people can do these zones in mastercrafted and adept 3 if they put a little effort into using knowledge and skill in these zones. I'm not saying their viewpoint isn't valid, it absolutely is from their perspective, but that doesn't mean they won't accidentally destroy my enjoyment of the game, my playstyle, when tweaking the game towards their playstyle.  Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense, because hardcore raiders are always worried about the game being tweaked too much towards the casual playstyle and ruining the raiding aspect of the game.  It makes a raider feel like they completely wasted their time when they spent weeks or months working on a strat for an insane fight, finally got it and the rewards for it, only to have SOE come along right after and tone down the encounter so much that anyone can do it.  It utterly destroys the sense of accomplishment, it turns it into a big "whoop-de-do".

Gargamel wrote:

What I don't like AT ALL is hearing comments like "the community" wants this or "the community" wants that... and the devs having other sites than their own in their mind when they say "the community"

If it's in regards to the raiding community, it's entirely valid considering most raiders post on flames rather than here.  And if it bothers you that you're not automatically included in said community, why not put for the effort to become part of that community?

Most recently with the spell consolidation... I keep getting told "the community has demanded this for a long time" and "the community has always complained about the button spam and whack-a-mole" stuff.

Who's telling you this?  There's been very few people on flames who consider this a good idea at all, and even then it's specified that only for certain spells/buffs would be a good idea.  For example, combine priest group buffs into a single, 1-concentration slot buff.  There is zero downside to a change like that, no one can logically disagree with that.  Combine rogue self-buff with their stances--what rogue is going to NOT want that buff up at all times?  On the other hand, most places where any spells could be consolidated is going to be a bad idea; ask Chronomancer enchanters how they would feel if any of their spells were combined--I guarantee you'll get a vehemently negative response to the idea.

As far as whack-a-mole goes, the game is as simple or complex as you make it; don't like constantly hitting those buttons, then don't!  Simple.  But raiders prefer having those various options available to them, having to think about which debuff should go in first, can I throw in this debuff without pulling agro, how many combat arts can a bruiser or swashbuckler get in while their temp buff is up to maximize dps? Consolidating all spells/arts where possible is only going to make EQ2 more like WoW; if we wanted to play WoW, we would...

So many players don't even read the forums... when I try to think about the number of players that frequent a 3rd party forums about the game being described as 'the community', it stings.

As I said above, make an effort to join that community.  If what's discussed there doesn't affect or apply to you, then why should it bother you at all?

At least if I read something on here I disagree (or agree) with I can respond... didn't know I had to be on 'guard' on all these 3rd party sites, else I'd be left out of all these decisions by 'the community'

People disagree all the time on flames; if you think otherwise, you're sadly mistaken.  It's coming across as "only my opinion is valid" or something like that that gets someone bashed on flames.

[Lionidas]

Official vs. Fansite No one complained when another site got an exclusive on the upcoming new furniture. The same could be said when a Dev would give an interview or give information on any one of the other fan sites. Due to the rift between playstyles (raider vs. casual), this would lead to an assumption that one playstyle is receiving special treatment. Of course this is wrong and just another reason to try and further separate those two groups when instead it could be used to bring them closer. I read both forums for specific reasons. I enjoy the tradeskill and lore sections on this site. I believe that the most knowledgeable people in that aspect of the game post here, so this is where I come to read about those specifics. When it comes to testing game mechanics, spells, CAs, items and equipment I find that Flames has the people that put the time and effort into this. Info only for people geared in fabled "Ah but you are missing a crucial point.  The HC raider types are equipped differently than the casual." Only to a certain extent. Read through many of the posts about gear and you will find that some of the best items in the game are obtainable by anyone. Here are a few examples: Pristine Imbued Acrylia Band of Strength Pristine Imbued Acrylia Band of Agility Bone-clasped Girdle Planar Orb of the Wanderer Mystical Orb of the Invoker Mystical Orb of the Healer X'haviz's Gown of Glory Cloak of Unrest V'Ncenzi's Voluminous Cape Mark of the Awakened Intellect Mark of the Awakened Instinct Glowing Mote of Magic Vzee'rist's Sash of Draining Grizzfazzle's Walking Stick Necromantic Orb of the Death Reveler Brock's Thermal Shocker Overflowing Vessel of Fyr'Un Manastone Stein of the Everling Lord Huntmaster's Steelweave Leggings War Mantle of Rallos Zek Sour Song Choker Earring of the League Guardians Signet of the League Guardians Bracelet of the League Guardians Cloak of Flames Et'sipe's Haubergeon of Undeath And the list goes on. Most of these items can be obtained with one group or less. Really the difference is that the "real Hard-Core Raiders" do not care about the item's tag (Fabled, Legendary...) They use what performs the best.

[Kenazeer]

Gargamel wrote:

What I don't like AT ALL is hearing comments like "the community" wants this or "the community" wants that... and the devs having other sites than their own in their mind when they say "the community"

Most recently with the spell consolidation... I keep getting told "the community has demanded this for a long time" and "the community has always complained about the button spam and whack-a-mole" stuff.

I searched and searched and searched for this "community" that wanted all this and couldn't find it anywhere around here.

I think that change in particular is in response to many things. In no particular order...

1) The divergence of the tier system (10 levels) with the spell system (14 levels)

2) Recent exit poll feedback

3) Feedback from other MMO players who have tried the game and found this to be an unsatisfactory facet of gameplay

4) Direct feedback on the boards in some threads

SOE is a gaming business. In the strictest sense the "community" could be considered to be active subscribers, but in reality, the "community" encompasses a whole lot more than that. They would be remiss in recognizing this fact, as would we when we consider the decisions they make.

[L]

Gargamel wrote:

I don't mind them posting wherever they want or spreading info.

What I don't like AT ALL is hearing comments like "the community" wants this or "the community" wants that... and the devs having other sites than their own in their mind when they say "the community"

Most recently with the spell consolidation... I keep getting told "the community has demanded this for a long time" and "the community has always complained about the button spam and whack-a-mole" stuff.

I searched and searched and searched for this "community" that wanted all this and couldn't find it anywhere around here.

So many players don't even read the forums... when I try to think about the number of players that frequent a 3rd party forums about the game being described as 'the community', it stings.

At least if I read something on here I disagree (or agree) with I can respond... didn't know I had to be on 'guard' on all these 3rd party sites, else I'd be left out of all these decisions by 'the community'

Forum sites are commonly described as a "community".  MMOG's at large are also often described as a "community" of players. In this case, EQ2 has a "community" of players.  EQ2Flames and the Official Forums each have their own "community", which are a subset of the larger EQ2 community. So, a reference to "the community" is perfectly appropriate, provided the specific "community" at issue is described or incorporated by reference in the comment.

[Ravella]

Anyone is welcome at EQ2flames. Don't let the name scare you, you will find some genuinely helpful, friendly and funny people there. If you stay away from certain forums (the flame ones, they're clearly labeled) you will not only find a wealth of information, but some downright fun people. The server forums are a great way to get to know people on your server. They are way more lax there about things like nonsense posts (Unrest has a few posts that are nothing but "inflate your post count" threads), inter-guild rivalries, some juicy drama, or just some interesting ideas like an alt-raid alliance for ways to outfit our alts or a Royal Rumble duel contest. Sure, there are times that people get heated or angry or call each other names, but take it from someone who gets hell quite often over there, if you don't act like a dumba$$, you won't get treated like one. Be willing to accept others opinions, even if you disagree. And if you disagree, at least you can call them an idiot in a colorful way and not worry about "the man" hunting you down lol! You shouldn't get jealous or upset that dev's post on our forums. If you took the time to see, the dev response here is generally more prevalent than on eq2flames. You get alot more attention. This post in particular just came about because he saw a thread with good discussion, but was spiraling into too many details specific to each class. Rather than try to filter thru a 25+ page post to find that information, he requested that someone start a new thread in each class forum so the specifics for that class could be addressed without fighting with the rest of the classes to get their voice heard.

[Savanja]

Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Because a substantial and legitimate portion of the playersbase no longer posts here because of the firm restrictions. I've been one of the biggest supporters on the official forums and even I have given up here.

[auk]

TaleraRis wrote:

Lisabethy wrote:

Because at times, it's the answering of a question posed that ends up divulging the information. If someone on Flames thought to question something and did so there because that is where they are comfortable, why not pose the question there? And why not answer there? While a majority of posters at Flames are hard-core raiders, they aren't all hard-core raiders. I've seen posts by some of the casual players that simply question more or want to understand the mechanics of the game as a whole better than what they've found on these forums. Sometimes, a question is posed on Flames that is answered in full by the players. Sometimes, a dev merely wants to clarify something or in fact, question something themselves in order to figure out where further clarifying is needed. There is an openness on Flames that doesn't exist on these forums for the simple fact that you can ask or answer a question without wondering if you posed it in the most politically correct way possible in order to not offend those with "lighter" sensibilities.

But all that is possible here. Have you ever been to the tradeskill forums here? We can get rather vehement with each other, and none of us are afraid to seek out more answers. The only caveat is that we're respectful, and I think that's less to do with being politically correct and more general politeness. If you respect someone's opinion, regardless if you agree or not, then they're more likely to respect yours and more constructive comments can be made. It's long been a standing that we try to uphold on the ranger forums (or did at least when I posted there more often) and no one there was afraid to post even an unpopular opinion, either, or if they were, it wasn't due to the atmosphere of the boards. And those are both official SoE boards. I'm not arguing against the devs posting elsewhere. I just worry that these sort of conversations aren't even attempted here also, where there are highly skilled and knowledgeable players as well.

Not all opinions are created equally. When one opinion is well founded and facts and sound reason, when it can be objectively evaluated to be more correct than another, other opinions that are not as well founded or as soundly reasoned should be called for what they are: wrong. There's no reason to respect a poorly formed opinion. It is a form of political correctness to feel it necessary to give equal weight to all opinions and views on a subject. This is why we have things in real life like the creation vs evolution debate. There is no question that one side is well supported by objective fact and reason while the other is not. The two positions are not equal, but political correctness forces us to respect the incorrect views even though those views deserve no respect. Each side of the argument has their own perspective that leads them to form their views. Neither perspective is better than the other, of course, it is just a different foundation. Unfortunately, two people discussing a topic from completely different foundations (either casual vs hardcore or in real life religious vs scientific) can rarely come to any kind of consensus because the entire process of thought, analysis and argumentation is different between them. Even language has different meanings for different people (for example, the scientific meaning of Theory differs considerably from the lay meaning of the word). People as individuals deserve respect by default, unless and until they prove otherwise. Opinions though are neutral, deserving neither respect nor disrespect, and must earn respect by being well founded and soundly reasoned. This does not mean that two differing opinions can not have the same weight, but both would have to be able to survive the same amount of scrutiny equally well. Opinions that can be dismissed logically or factually should be no matter whose feelings get hurt by doing so.