interesting decision (open test server)

[nat_lyte]

this is an interesting change, and im interested to see how it works out.

[Kwoung]

Any SOE personage feel like sharing the plan with us? If this works out, is Test a goner? Are we to be deleted / transferred / whatever? It seems to me, if nothing else, you have just successfully stopped pretty much everyone from rolling up a toon on Test, since they can simply copy to Test-PVP now. Which would indicate, that over time, our server will dwindle away to nothing, is that not accurate?

Anyhow, it looks like you are shutting Test down, if not today, soon... any official word on the matter?

[ZeyGnome]

Straight from EQ2flames to your doorstep!  Considering the amount of pull that place has (for god knows what reason) I am really worried now.

[Kwoung]

ZeyGnome wrote:

Straight from EQ2flames to your doorstep!  Considering the amount of pull that place has (for god knows what reason) I am really worried now.

You think they would have learned in SWG, but guess not. Even more worrisome is that Aerilik replied and said not to worry, but now it appears his post was deleted.

[Sunrayn]

After reading the Vanguard forums and seeing that they are copying servers to test, and that thread keth linked, it doesnt look good for us.

Since I absolutely wont go back to playing on a live server, getting rid of test and/or allowing /charcopy would be the end of EQ for me.

How about some support for your loyal, full time testers from the powers-that-be?

[ZeyGnome]

This is what I relied on when deciding wheter or not to play on the Test server:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/....m?topic_id=170

 So now, will this be honored or will it not be?  At this moment I think its time to reiterate what happens to the Test server as it goes foreward.

While I think it will be interesting to see what happens on this clone server, this Test server needs to know where we stand, and it would be nice (extremely nice) if the public was informed as well, since you did basically just freeze any possibly new players.

[Zeral498]

I wouldn't worry about it too much guys. The patch notes did state that they're doing this to test the dual wield changes on a massive scale. I could see them taking this temporary server down once they get the feedback they want. That being said though, I think they should put up a temporary server up every patch from now on to see if they receive quality /bug and /feedback reports similar to those they receive from our Test Server. If they can consistently receive good feedback from the open Test Server, then there is obviously no need to keep our Test Server. EDIT: Woops. I should learn to read. It says dual wield and other future changes on the patch notes.

[Kwoung]

It would be nice if Scott popped in to let us know what the plans are.

[Zeral498]

Sunrayn wrote:

After reading the Vanguard forums and seeing that they are copying servers to test, and that thread keth linked, it doesnt look good for us.

Since I absolutely wont go back to playing on a live server, getting rid of test and/or allowing /charcopy would be the end of EQ for me.

How about some support for your loyal, full time testers from the powers-that-be?

All 50 of us full time testers - yeah. I'm sure many will quit for good, but some will just go play on Live instead (like me). They would lose a negligible amount of subscriptions by replacing Current Test with Open Test. It'll only work if Open Test is just as, or more efficient/successful than Current Test though.

[Calthine]

Zeral498 wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it too much guys. The patch notes did state that they're doing this to test the dual wield changes on a massive scale. I could see them taking this temporary server down once they get the feedback they want.

They also mentioned the PvP Test server at FF in connection with testing the DW changes.

[Kirstie]

Hi All,

Right now we have no plans to change the existing Test server.  

The secondary Test server called "Test PVP" (an unfortunate choice in names now that we're using it as a PvE server) is going to continue to evolve as we have different needs for testing.

Having two test servers not only allows us to do live -> test copies as we are now, but it also allows for testing other server side changes that were impossible with only one live test server.  So I expect that we will continue to run two test servers for the forseeable future.

If any of this changes, I'll be sure to make it public with as much notice as possible.

- K

[ZeyGnome]

That's all fine, but now you've placed a stigma on this Test server.  Who would bother rolling here?  Maybe if the intentions were public, and an actual recognition of the Test server as a viable and useful (and used) tool in the development of the game then it might still be an attractive place for someone to roll on.

As it is right now, your assurances aren't leaving me with fuzzy feelings at all ('if this changes in the future . . ' )  Make a commitment to us now, and tel us what might happen 'if this changes'.  My characters are not throwaways, as per the link I posted.  They are my characters here in this game, and if they might be deemed unworthy in the future, then I want to know where they will end up.  Will we be moved to a Live server (with everything, including guild intact) or will Test be given a name (finally) and made into a Live server.

Right now, I am in limbo because of this, and if you think its only a matter of a few accounts waning until giving up, you are probably mistaken.  One of the main issues I had with SoE in the past (which I overcame when I came to EQ2) was the lack of consideration towards the people who are loyal to their products.  How many more hits can the reputation take?

I'm not wanting to be harsh, so sorry if that sounds that way, but cards on the table, it's time to pony up what is really going on and where we are going, because please don't say there isn't an overall plan here, because I'm not that naive.

[Kirstie]

ZeyGnome wrote

 recognition of the Test server as a viable and useful (and used) tool in the development of the game

The Test server is absolutely a useful and used tool as we develop the game.   I've mentioned a few times that part of my daily routine in the morning is to read all of your /bugs and /feedback from the previous 24 hours.

I'm hoping that people will recognize that setting up a second test server to allow the copies to was also, in part, motivated by a desire not to disrupt the full time players on the existing Test server.

- K

[Terrifier]

 I for one am sorry to see this decision. There is now no incentive to come to test and level a character. This effectively has cut the servers throat from any raid or future growth perspective. There are so many ways you could have dealt with the small minority of hardcore raiders.  All I can say is I am canceling my second account and will watch and see how this affects test. I am sure my small amount of lost revenue is not going to affect SOE but its the only way I can express myself that has any kind of impact. My time is worth more than the few dollars I spend a month to play EQ2. So effectively its up to me to get the most out of my time. If I see a decline in numbers and we lose the ability to achieve new goals it will be time to look at another source of amusement. Sorry to say but this was a plain and simple poor test/marketing decision.

[ZeyGnome]

Kirstie, I know you do, and so do most of the Testers, but they (the public) don't.

Saying things like that in a public forum would go a long way, especially after this.

I'm not wanting ego-stroking, but public recognition would foster a better chance of us getting people. 

[Bre]

I can understand that things change. What I ask is simple. Since SOE had changed this from Moors post..

Wouldn't you get better testing results if you encouraged character copies? We feel that promoting Test as a real server with a unique community will result in more consistent and useful feedback than allowing characters from other servers to be copied over at will. While that would result in more people seeing the latest changes, there are many who would take advantage of such a service for reasons other than helping improve the game. Having the server crowded with less-dedicated players could actually get in the way of receiving quality feedback from the experienced individuals who currently play on Test.

Could we be given the option to move to a live server? Guild and all.

We paid to do a lot of work for you guys, I don't think this is asking too much. My desire to go to live is pretty low honestly, but staying here seems rather futile now. Because what little population increase we did see in the past just had its' throat stepped on. Which means I have 0 chance of seeing the full game now unless I go to live.  

Brega.

[Terrifier]

Heres a paste from Eqflames nastiest person. Hope it says it all about this decision and the way test is going to perceive it. Widem vbmenu_register("postmenu_222149", true); L337 Poster   Character: Widem Guild: Dissolution Server: Nektulos Posts: 1,023 Photos: (8) Re: Test Copy its doesnt matter how great the intentions are when it comes to the current test community. they simply dont have the humanpower, experience, or knowhow to test certain areas. This gives the ability to test things on all levels. The test servers currently don't have much if any of a raiding scene is this is what i consider the stress testing content. If anyone is going to figure out a max or a min its them. I actually would think it would be kewl on this site if we have a test section (not like test server which is more of a community forum) which is broken down by each LU where we can make threads with certan items we have tested and discuss it. I'm am extremely overjoyed with this and can't wait to /testcopy and bring some good info back to the fury section and hopefully some good /feedback to the devs involved. As far as making everyone happy this was a very good PR decision. They took a bad situation (unintended geared toons on PVP test which needed a wipe, people [Removed for Content] they can't do propper high end testing, and the current PVE test server wanting to think they are a real server) and made a very good decision that i think everyone understands and can be very happy with. __________________ Illuminaderrrrrretired. Elanie "Destroyer of Dairy Queen Frozen Blizzard" Calaglin [Removed for Content] in his own cheerios, just to get him hyped up for his daily EQ2Flames posting. "Dextera" Last edited by Widem : 08-16-2007 at 10:06 AM.

[Bre]

And as an add, thanks for not wanting to disrupt us. But in so doing you have taken away any hope of growth. Monday we got a new recruit from live who wanted to join so she could lvl up a toon to raiding lvl and help out. Just how often do you think that is going to happen now?

Brega

[Kethaera]

Brega wrote:

And as an add, thanks for not wanting to disrupt us. But in so doing you have taken away any hope of growth. Monday we got a new recruit from live who wanted to join so she could lvl up a toon to raiding lvl and help out. Just how often do you think that is going to happen now?

Brega

**gets out a big yellow highlighter and highlights this post** I really really really appreciate you guys taking us into consideration and not wanting to ruin everything we've worked for. However, Brega has it absolutely right. Who in their right mind is going to WORK a character up on Test when they can just wait and /testcopy whenever they want? As people leave the game (which they inevitably do), we will have no new population coming in to take their place. So, we want to know: what next for us? When you close the server, which you'll have to eventually since it will be dead, what happens to the characters I've worked so hard on? Do we get transferred to a Live server with our guild intact? Or are we expected to sit there while the server dies? I want to know so I know whether to continue putting any work into my characters, or if I should just quit now. Oh, and those that know me know I am NOT a doom and gloom type poster. I just have such a sick feeling right now...

[Kirstie]

I believe that what moorgard's post said is still true. 

Please remember that allowing copies to the Test PVP server is a temporary thing and we have not stated anywhere that it will be the new standard for testing out game updates (if it is stated anywhere let me know because it shouldn't be).

I am very serious when I say the second test server is an evolving server that we are still working on how best to use.  I appreciate your feedback as with all the feedback I get from the test server and it will be taken into consideration on our next cycle.

- K

[ZeyGnome]

it says 'and any future changes.' which definitely reads as it's staying.

Maybe stating it will be wiped and turned off at go live of GU38 and evaulated for possible future use would make it better.

Edit: and I do appreciate not trying to disrupt the server, though starving it is kind of a disruption too.

We want a larger population, no one on this server I can think of wants otherwise.  Make us real to the players and maybe it could happen.

[Zeral498]

Kirstie wrote:

I believe that what moorgard's post said is still true. 

Please remember that allowing copies to the Test PVP server is a temporary thing and we have not stated anywhere that it will be the new standard for testing out game updates (if it is stated anywhere let me know because it shouldn't be).

I am very serious when I say the second test server is an evolving server that we are still working on how best to use.  I appreciate your feedback as with all the feedback I get from the test server and it will be taken into consideration on our next cycle.

- K

Well, it's quite clear that the Devs want to make Open Test work. Actually at this point they're going to have to make it work. Current Test is already dead. Looks like we're getting replaced for that coffee machine after all Hek. xD

[Kirstie]

ZeyGnome wrote:

it says 'and any future changes.' which definitely reads as it's staying.

 It said 'and future changes'.  I've removed the 'future' from the statement on the test update notes and asked that the Live update notes also be changed to help avoid confusion.  Plans for what to do with the secondary test server after GU38 are not finalized.

 Future in this case meant any future changes as we lead up to the launch of GU38, but as I am sure we are all aware, sometimes exactly what we mean doesn't come accross in what we say (or write).

 As always I appreciate your feedback but I would also appreciate if in this thread you avoided insinuating that I'm lying about my or the other developers intentions and attempt to keep it constructive.

 - K

[Kethaera]

Kirstie wrote:

 As always I appreciate your feedback but I would also appreciate if in this thread you avoided insinuating that I'm lying about my or the other developers intentions and attempt to keep it constructive.

 - K

I don't think anyone meant to insinuate you were lying. The part Zeygnome quoted and certain quotes from Aeralik have indicated to the population at large that the new test server was going to be used in this fashion from hence forth. Over on the flamers site, they've already got big plans and are taking great joy in rubbing salt in our wounds. We few little testers weren't the only ones that misconstrued the text.

[Bre]

I don't know what to say here Kirstie. The game has indeed changed. Arguing with you on this will just get me censored or banned. Which at this point I desire neither. I'll repeat my original question and then bow out. I'll have my answer either way. Heck I'm not sure at this point if I would even move to Live, but I think a change of this magnitude would warrent the offer from SOE.

Could we be given the option to move to a live server, guild and all?

Brega.

edit - ok between me starting to write this and hitting send Kirstie clarified a bit.

Thanks for that.

But please try and understand our concern. It really did appear that the new PvP Test server was a permanent fixture. And thereforer we were obsolete.

Brega

[Purr]

Thanks, Kirstie, for the encouraging words.

Unfort. the two of us are still worried (like many others). Test channel has become a game wide >blah< channel that has nothing to do with any test or testing. How long till somebody up the food chain will think that Test Server is expendable, too? I'm not doubting you or your words, Kirstie, but I have seen >poop< happening within SoE again and again. Things that were said today were claimed as false rumors the next day and what is green today will not only be red tomorrow but will be stated as always having been red.

This board is for testers only while everybody out there only sees that they can now copy to a >Test< server. This puts pretty much a seal on our good old test, saying: outdated and not used anymore, worse: it says: whatever time you put in on this server = lost time. I admit I feel like somebody just pulled the rug from under me.

The only thing that could change that for me (and I'm sure many many others) is a public statement from Scott or Smed in the NEWS section of the EQ2 web page, stating that this copy-test-server is temporary and will be put up for limited times to test special changes or betas etc., and telling us clearly what their plans for our Test Server are and how far they will honor this:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/....m?topic_id=170

and all that rather fast. I know that at the latest in 3 months nobody will care for any copies to this >Test PvP< server anymore except for trying out personal or guild stuff that's "to risky" to do it on the live server right away. I have seen it happening in the past again and again. I just can't believe SoE fell for that >we promise we'll test everything< crap from the EQ2flames page. Do we really need another Test environment disaster like in DAOC or Horizons?

a very disappointed Purr~

Test Server = priceless Especially with us gone ...  and this time from all SoE games, if ...

(Not a thread, just a sign of us being very confused by the last events)

[EtoilePirate]

Kethaera wrote:

Brega wrote:

And as an add, thanks for not wanting to disrupt us. But in so doing you have taken away any hope of growth. Monday we got a new recruit from live who wanted to join so she could lvl up a toon to raiding lvl and help out. Just how often do you think that is going to happen now?

Brega

**gets out a big yellow highlighter and highlights this post** I really really really appreciate you guys taking us into consideration and not wanting to ruin everything we've worked for. However, Brega has it absolutely right. Who in their right mind is going to WORK a character up on Test when they can just wait and /testcopy whenever they want? As people leave the game (which they inevitably do), we will have no new population coming in to take their place. So, we want to know: what next for us? When you close the server, which you'll have to eventually since it will be dead, what happens to the characters I've worked so hard on? Do we get transferred to a Live server with our guild intact? Or are we expected to sit there while the server dies? I want to know so I know whether to continue putting any work into my characters, or if I should just quit now. Oh, and those that know me know I am NOT a doom and gloom type poster. I just have such a sick feeling right now...

**gets big pink highlighter and those little Post-It flags and draws arrows to Keth's post** Without fresh blood... we're totally hosed.  Yes, there have been up and down swings over the last two and a half years, but... well, I'm worried too. I've put two and a half years into my characters.  I care for them just as much as anyone on any Live server would.  I don't have the strength to reroll on a Live server, because I know my guild won't come with me and they're what make the game worth playing. I know that a hundred loyal testers are a paltry percentage of the total EQII accounts but... well, please try not to lose us.   I like it here.

[Aela@Test]

Ryahl and I have been MIA for most of the week due to a move irl.  Personally, we like test a lot.  We played on live before quitting the game and returning to check out LU24 (i think? the crafting one) to see what kinda changes were happening.  We enjoyed test so much, we decided to come here and play full time.  We left most (all?) of our guild behind in the move, and have settled down pretty well with a few new AS folks and now the folks from our raid alligence. 

 That said, we'd not be intrested in playing on a live server again.  If test died, we'd likely go play one of the 3 games we are currently beta testing infrequently. 

Also, had test 2.0 been up during the trade skill patch..we wouldn't be playing on test--or eq2--now.  (is that good or bad?   )  We would have copied over, played on live for awhile..and then likely quit.  We played on live and didn't like it.

However, is there a justicification for keeping test around as a 100 person server?  dunno.  But with the new changes, we'll likely see very little growth in the future, and as others here have said, that equals death for the test server.

[Zeral498]

Brega wrote:

I'll repeat my original question and then bow out. I'll have my answer either way. Heck I'm not sure at this point if I would even move to Live, but I think a change of this magnitude would warrent the offer from SOE.

Could we be given the option to move to a live server, guild and all?

Brega.

I'd like to echo Brega's inquiry. Is it possible for Current Test characters to be transferred to a Live Server? We would really appreciate it if you could answer this question because it would save a lot of people a lot of time.

[Kwoung]

It is a bit soon to be bailing the server, but it would be nice to know if the option will exist if this latest "test" proves to have negative effects on the current Test server. Chances are, I would copy my chars to Mistmoore where my regular guild plays, then cancel my accounts soon after, as I have little interest in playing EQ2 on a live server, been there, done that, was estatic when test came on line and we could start over there.

If someone feels like making a public statement that Test will stick around, be used for everything except the few situations that can not be tested there and it will remain your primary testing platform... among other stuff that may still entice players to roll here, I think that would help a lot. Otherwise, you all have just killed our server I think. Even if you do wipe after the update, everyone will know you will open it again the next time you need testing done, so no point in rolling on reg Test.

BTW, in case you folks at SOE have forgoten how this is going to go over the next 6 months, I can refresh your memory.

This copy will be a huge success, everyone will get to say I told you so, you should have done it a long time ago.

Next month/update, unless it is a huge change, a lot less folks will copy over. Most will only spot check things that affect their character, maybe do a few respecs for fun because even if it costs plats, its no biggy on a disposable character. Many will find bugs/exploits, but not report them in hopes of taking advantage of it on live, some may get reported.

2 months out: Test server begins to dwindle, as no new players are rolling here and many of the old regulars have bailed because they can see how this is going to play out and do not wish to waste any more time here.

3-4 months out:t Not many folks copy over, many are disparaged because the bugs they reportedthe previous time they copied went live anyways and they figure whats the point, you are not paying them to test anyways and they are sure someone else will do it. Regular Test server is becoming a wasteland, the few that do roll there, quickly decide to bail because the broker is once again mostly empty and very few players are online.

6 months out, regular update: a dozen or so players log into Test-PVP to check some stuff out, a couple bugs get repoorted, they go back to live because there is hardly anyone else logged into the server. Regular Test is a done deal, mostly everyone has left for other games or rerolled on live, but they never copy back over to test, unless it is for the same reason the live players do, to quickly check some change to their character.

The state of testing this time next year: Huge patches get a quickly flurry of folks over to Test-PVP to check them out, everything else goes pretty much untested. Crafting bugs, broker bugs, chat bugs, low to mid level zone bugs run rampant, because they never get tested. The game now has more bugs going live than ever before.. but on the plus side, the players can not complain, because SOE gives them the option to help (to bad they bored of helping, they will complain louder than ever about the bugs regardless)

BTW, I did not make the above up, that is what has happened every time SOE or another game publisher has tried this... good luck!