Zone Nerfs

[gatrm]

It was bad enough when all heroic content was removed from the Commonlands, then you repeated the sin for Antonica...and Nek Forest- Ok...if the reason for the t2 nerfs is they are nothing more than a scenic path to get from level 10-20, then what's the excuse for Nek Forest?  Just because it is connected to Neriak?   No need for new toons to go through Nek Forest from Neriak, just go through the Commonlands.  If they go through nek...well, it was pretty safe after your last nerfing of the zone.  The heroic content was already near impossible to find, now it's non existent.  What is your goal here? To make it so that no one ever groups or extends themselves? There are already too many level 70s who do not know how to play their classes.  These changes only make it so that you don't have to learn the class.  I can see it now, it won't be long before every outdoor zone has nothing but non aggro single down arrow mobs.  Maybe at that point, SOE will decide the dungeons are too hard, and the heroic content will be removed from there also.  Hmm, maybe instead of playing at all we should just log in and go to an npc for our weekly loot.  And please, don't say that these zones were too difficult.  They weren't.  It has been a long time since any toon really could not go from one end of any of these zones to the other without dying.  Way before zones were nerfed, before KOS, toons who wanted to betray from Freeport to Qeynos, or the other way around, were forced to get past red heroic mobs that saw through invisibility in order to get from one town to another.  This was challenging, but very doable.  Lots of people did it, and it did not take away from the fun of the game, in fact, it added to the fun.  I cannot comprehend anyone who truly thinks that these zone nerfs are a positive thing and I beg the developers to reconsider and put some challenge back into these zones.

[Naglfar]

100% agree on this, even if paragraph would have been welcome

[Nitrous999]

/agree

 Especially about the lvl 70s who have no clue that really pisses me off

[Kizee]

Yep, pretty sad they need to dumb down the game this much to cater to some people.

[Sassinak]

The simple fact is that there arent enough groups at these lower levels for people to utilize the heroic content.  So they are moving to a model where the heroic content is in dungeons and you know exactly where those are.  This is a natural progression of the game as the population average gets to higher levels. Look at it this way:  you used to need groups after level 10 or so - but there were only 50 levels in all.  Now you dont need groups until level 30 or so - but there will be 80 levels in all.  There are still plenty of levels where people will want or need to group, they have just been pushed up a bit.

[Lancaster38]

gatrm wrote:

It was bad enough when all heroic content was removed from the Commonlands, then you repeated the sin for Antonica...and Nek Forest- Ok...if the reason for the t2 nerfs is they are nothing more than a scenic path to get from level 10-20, then what's the excuse for Nek Forest?  Just because it is connected to Neriak?   No need for new toons to go through Nek Forest from Neriak, just go through the Commonlands.  If they go through nek...well, it was pretty safe after your last nerfing of the zone.  The heroic content was already near impossible to find, now it's non existent.  What is your goal here? To make it so that no one ever groups or extends themselves? There are already too many level 70s who do not know how to play their classes.  These changes only make it so that you don't have to learn the class.  I can see it now, it won't be long before every outdoor zone has nothing but non aggro single down arrow mobs.  Maybe at that point, SOE will decide the dungeons are too hard, and the heroic content will be removed from there also.  Hmm, maybe instead of playing at all we should just log in and go to an npc for our weekly loot.  And please, don't say that these zones were too difficult.  They weren't.  It has been a long time since any toon really could not go from one end of any of these zones to the other without dying.  Way before zones were nerfed, before KOS, toons who wanted to betray from Freeport to Qeynos, or the other way around, were forced to get past red heroic mobs that saw through invisibility in order to get from one town to another.  This was challenging, but very doable.  Lots of people did it, and it did not take away from the fun of the game, in fact, it added to the fun.  I cannot comprehend anyone who truly thinks that these zone nerfs are a positive thing and I beg the developers to reconsider and put some challenge back into these zones.

I agree, change sucks. I don't think it matters at all that much of the content in these zones was being ignored, they should have kept it heroic, if just for those few people who need that kind of challenge at level 10. 

[Tae]

As stated, there's practically nobody grouping at that level now. The heroic mobs in Antonica were nothing but a pain as people solo quested in the zone. It was always annoying to walk through the place and keep getting threeshotted by heroic gnolls that would come out of nowhere.

[AbsentmindedMage]

Sassinak wrote:

The simple fact is that there arent enough groups at these lower levels for people to utilize the heroic content.  So they are moving to a model where the heroic content is in dungeons and you know exactly where those are.  This is a natural progression of the game as the population average gets to higher levels. Look at it this way:  you used to need groups after level 10 or so - but there were only 50 levels in all.  Now you dont need groups until level 30 or so - but there will be 80 levels in all.  There are still plenty of levels where people will want or need to group, they have just been pushed up a bit.

I agree with you completely.  As the average level of the player base has increased, it has gotten more and more difficult to find groups to complete lower level things.   It is only natural that the developers would recognize this and change the game world accordingly.

[Skeptycal]

Have to agree the game we started playing was awesome. It has become very watered down since then. My first guardian was a MUCH better experience than my 2nd one on pvp. The quests, mobs, content, access quests, class skills, etc have just been so watered down. You know that even Ogof and Gaer aren't even x2 anymore? Remember when a heritage quest was a challenge at your level? What? You mean I can go to EL unless I do some hard boat ride quest? I have to work a bit to gain something? I have to think a bit to figure something out? I know it's disappointing to players that started playing this game at launch, but they are trying to attract more players. And many of the people that have time for a game like this are little kids. They want to attract those players and to do it the game cant be too hard because those guys cant (or wont) do it. They will go to an easier game and mess around there. I don't know what the answer is, but I see the reasons. They are in this to make a buck. And the bucks come from the kids. Perhaps there could be a throwback server and we can play how it was at, maybe, LU 11? I'd miss some of the great new changes and content, but it was surely more challenging and fun back then.

[The_Real_Ohno]

Who remembers grouping up in Ant for the Scarecrows by TS station?  Good old days.

[Garnaf]

I remember when all solo content just died after you left Ant / CL.  Right up there with when Treasure Chests were the #1 killers of players and the Forge was #2.  (Heck the first time I died was to the chest dropped by my very first kill)

[Sassinak]

Skeptycal wrote:

You know that even Ogof and Gaer aren't even x2 anymore? Remember when a heritage quest was a challenge at your level?

You see the problem, though.  When you did Ogof and Gaer in 2004, there were 3 instances of Commonlands with 100 people each.  Today there is 1 instance with 20 people. How long would it take before you could get 12 people together to kill a x2 mob in CL today?  The answer is you probably never would.  You'd outlevel the quest long before you found enough people to help you. I don't think they are really nerfing, it's more like adapting the game to the changing population.

[gatrm]

Taear@Venekor wrote:

As stated, there's practically nobody grouping at that level now. The heroic mobs in Antonica were nothing but a pain as people solo quested in the zone. It was always annoying to walk through the place and keep getting threeshotted by heroic gnolls that would come out of nowhere.

The vast majority of these mobs had already been toned down, a couple of times- there was already minimum challenge and the heroics that did exist in Antonica before this last update were all soloable. 

GROUPS HAVE NOT BEEN NECESSARY in most of these zones for a really long time anyway.  There NEEDS to be some challenge to these zones.  If you venture out into the wilderness on your own, there should be the chance that you run into a particularly nasty creature if you aren't paying attention.

At least they gave some challenge to those who wanted to try them.  Those who didn't, could easily avoid them.

And yeah, to those who posted about how things were back before lu13, there was SIGNIFICANTLY more challenge in nearly all  the zones, as heroic content, aggro roamers, etc were toned down or removed completly at some point, it may have been 13, but don't remember exactly.

As far as Ogof and Gaer not being epic anymore, I think that was back when they removed all the "false-epics" that were actually heroic in strength and re-labled them as heroic. 

If they HAVE to make stuff solo, why not groups of solo stuff, why does everything have to be individual? Really no point in removing encounters.

Good point about dumbing the game down for the kids, but really, how much easier does it need to get?

(see I'm learning how to post in forums....not so packed together as that first jumbo-paragraph)

[Lasai]

I was just through Nek Forest.. the zonewide nerfs are excessive and really sad to see.

The last softening of Nek was more than enough. This current version is too soft.

All the named I have found have been nerfed to single arrows.  Paddlefoot is a 26^.. they even nerfed Dragoon E'Brona to 27^.. I suppose the newbie arasai couldn't be bothered to learn to avoid even one dangerous mob.

Placeholders for captain Tsanne are also all nerfed, what I saw were single up and no arrow heroics.

Nightfalls are one ups.  Followers of Grelkor are non-heroics.  Grinnen Savages are single, non linked non-heroics.

Quite honestly.. the Ruins are now tougher content.

I did 51 quests, mostly Solo, as an Assassin in the Old, Mean Nek.  It taught me how to play.  I pity the new people coming in, they won't have a clue when they hit something that is a challenge.

[Thay]

In case you are unaware, places like CoB have already been nerfed as well. There are only a couple heroic mobs left there.

[Jayad]

Yeah, scarecrows were great. Very little has been as much fun as the original content back in the day

[Vatec]

Average level on my server is over 40.  There simply isn't enough population at the lower levels to warrant dedicating big chunks of the landscape to group-oriented content.  When the highest level one could reach was 50, and the average level on a server was 20 or less, it might have made sense to have the mid-level zones have large amounts of heroic mobs and heroic groups.  It no longer does. I am 100% thrilled by the changes to Antonica, Commonlands, and Nektulos Forest.  I don't think such a change is really needed for Thundering Steppes because that area is already easy.  Maybe a few more soloable giants (especially Firerock goliaths, which are used in several quests), but that's about it. To reiterate, I think the devs did a great job with Nek Forest.  You can actually find patchwork men, Sullian fairies, and Gul'thex mystics now.

[Vatec]

Jayad wrote:

Yeah, scarecrows were great. Very little has been as much fun as the original content back in the day

Um, standing in a field for hours killing the same exact monsters two at a time was fun?  Takes all kind to make a world, I guess, but the scarecrow fields brought back memories of Dark Age of Camp-a-lot for me.  Fun?  Maybe for you.  I am =much= happier with EQ2 right now than I was in November 2004....

[Vatec]

Skeptycal wrote:

Have to agree the game we started playing was awesome. It has become very watered down since then. My first guardian was a MUCH better experience than my 2nd one on pvp. The quests, mobs, content, access quests, class skills, etc have just been so watered down. You know that even Ogof and Gaer aren't even x2 anymore? Remember when a heritage quest was a challenge at your level? What? You mean I can go to EL unless I do some hard boat ride quest? I have to work a bit to gain something? I have to think a bit to figure something out? I know it's disappointing to players that started playing this game at launch, but they are trying to attract more players. And many of the people that have time for a game like this are little kids. They want to attract those players and to do it the game cant be too hard because those guys cant (or wont) do it. They will go to an easier game and mess around there. I don't know what the answer is, but I see the reasons. They are in this to make a buck. And the bucks come from the kids. Perhaps there could be a throwback server and we can play how it was at, maybe, LU 11? I'd miss some of the great new changes and content, but it was surely more challenging and fun back then.

An equally likely scenario is that they're trying to attract casual adult players.  The kind who have jobs and children and only small amounts of spare time.  These players often solo because they don't want to commit to a two-hour stint with a group and they don't want to inconvenience the group by going afk regularly or leaving abruptly. I've been playing since launch and I do NOT consider these changes disappointing.  Heck, if SOE had seen the light and made some of these changes back in early 2005, they might have presented WoW with a challenge. Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

[ke'la]

The Fact of the matter is that SoE has internal matixies on how people consume content and I am sorry to break it too you, but those Matixies show that even when there is more then enough group content in overland zones people just don't group overland, and consitering they have said repeatedly that EoF is the model for what they plan to do going forward, and all the EoF zones are 95%+ solo, you should have knowen that this was comming. I mean come one when was the last time you accually joined a group to kill nightbloods in EL(other then for HQs) heck when was the last time you where in any group and when asked "where are we going" the answer was ANY overland zone, even in KoS and DoF wich has Plenty of overland Heroics, you don't everyone ALWAYS named a dungon. We are going to CT, We are going to SH, We are going to RE, etc. Heck my very first group ever back a month or so after launch(and my first day or two in game) went to Blackburrow, we didn't hang out at the Crowfields.

[gatrm]

Ok- Using EoF zones as a model- It is easy to find heroic content, both aggro and non-aggro, including names in each and every EoF zone.  I wouldn't mind these changes if it were still possible to find heroic content in Antonica, Commonlands, Nek Forest (and yeah, i have noticed they did the same to CoB). 

The fact is, however, they went too far in simplifying the content.  Make solo stuff available for those who don't want a challenge.  Leave heroic stuff available for those who do. 

Nowhere have I indicated that grouping should be forced on people- Those in favor of these changes seem focused on soloing vs grouping.  My complaint has nothing to do with this. 

I SOLOED the HEROIC content prior to the zone changes, I habitually seek out difficult mobs that pose a challenge, regardless of the toon I am using.  I am willing to bet there are others like me. 

Give us the OPTION of trying to solo heroic stuff- we might die horrible deaths, but it's wickedly fun as opposed to the safe, mind-numbing killing of mobs that offer no challenges.

[Maergoth]

I'd much rather there be heroic content to try and get a group for, than to have a group and not be able to find any of the heroic content in the place you've got a group. Better idea! MAKE MORE LOOT for the lower level heroics, or do a hot-zone thing like EQ1 did. Grouping is and should be a major part of EQ2, if you want solo content.. you can go play Elder Scrolls. Mentoring is set in place for a reason, STOP giving people a reason to ignore other players, that will not lead to the natural selection process of weeding out the bad folks before they get to the stuff that NEEDS cooperation and common sense.

[Lancaster38]

gatrm wrote:

I SOLOED the HEROIC content prior to the zone changes, I habitually seek out difficult mobs that pose a challenge, regardless of the toon I am using.  I am willing to bet there are others like me. 

I doubt there are that many others who would willingly waste time soloing mobs originally designed for groups, unless they had to for a quest. If that's your thing, why not just stay in the dungeons? Solo those mobs in Wailing Caves/FG/BB/SH to your heart's content. The developers wised up to the fact that most reasonable players were skipping the heroic areas in low level zones because it wasn't worth it to try to find a group in a nearly empty zone, and by the time they could solo the heroics, the reward wasn't worth it.

Also, grinding the same heroic mobs does not a good player make, you just end up punching the same buttons as you would going solo. Enough with that silly assertion, you do not learn the ins and outs of your class between 10th-25th level anyway.

[roces9]

Ohnoez@Nagafen wrote:

Who remembers grouping up in Ant for the Scarecrows by TS station?  Good old days.

Lol QFE. I do miss grouping overland zones. I did alot of scarecrow and Giants groups in my day. But on the other hand it is pretty nice to be able to play for 45 minutes in a solo friendly environment. Sure I'm sad that a lot of the zones are much "easier' than they used to be, but seriously, when *WAS* the last time you got a Giants group together in TS? I know I'm not losing much sleep over it. edit: added some stuff.

[Galithdor]

This gets old...this game is challanging just not as challanging as eq1...or any of the other old games because this is a game disigned with CASUAL gamers in mind. It dosnt focus on the hardcore gamer like EQ1 did so deal with it. Most people dont like grouping in overland zones because dungeons are much easier to group in and you get more xp out of it most of the times. If the game is to watered down for you...quit it because whining about it will not change their minds...if SoE likes what they are adding they will continue to add it and ignore the people who complain about how bad the game is getting but dont quit.

/rant off

anyways...have fun

[Arbreth]

I must be a glutton for punishment, I miss shards and the old evil Nek. It took me more than two years to level my main (a mystic) to 70, I know her inside and out. It took me four months to level my swashy to 40, I do not understand her at all, and have been avoiding playing her. Ditto the monk, at 20 she collects dust and will be RoK fodder, perhaps I will do better next time? My baby warlock leapt 8 levels in a few hours of play in Fallen Gate (unmentored), she is 26 now and I HAVE to go solo with her for a few days to figure out what she does with all those new spells... However, this one I will keep, I love a challenge. I like solo stuff, I also like to group and taking a simple stroll like Antonica is one big Disney Park is boring.  They should be looking for ways to bring folk BACK to those zones, not shuffling them through so fast that they have no idea that there is lots of nooks and crannies out there. People want more content, if a player can hit 20 without ever leaving the gate, then what is outside the gate should be tougher and more interesting. You already stated that the population of lower leveled toons (can I assume 25 and less?) is low, so why give them a huge, empty place to never see another soul in? Keep solo content, it is needed (and was for a while at the appropriate levels), but give us something to think about, a reason to look around and pay attention.  Go ahead and plunk a level 60^^^ epic X3 bear in Antonica and have it wander about!

[TantrumX]

Greetings

Not here to rant, but im one of those people who are glad things are the way they are now. I work 5 days a week, sometimes long work days, have a family and help run an active RP guild. I enjoy a challenge, but I can't stand tedious, obvious time sinks(the game period is a time sink hehe). Anything that helps the causual player I'm all for it, in fact the reason I never played EQ1 was because of the horror stories I heard of camping and being too difficult. I play to have fun and relieve stress, with a large fraction of roleplay on the side, and I can't understand why some people miss things that add stress and does nothing to make the game better?

It has already been said that the majority are not in their 20's, they're already well past that((probably even w/alts)), so really what does it matter to you hardcore gamers anyway? Because you had to go through it, everyone else should too? I see nothing but good news. My apologies if I came off as too "kiddie", but that's my opinion and i'm sticking to it. 

Cheers

[Rahatmattata]

Vatec wrote:

Grouping should be a =choice=, not a requirement....

Grouping should be mandatory in a MMO. Guess you guys are lucky I didn't design any MMOs =P

Oh, and my very first group was level 12 heroic gnolls in Antonica, between Archer's Woods and Qeynos. When I got a level or two, I moved to the content and quests in Archer's Woods, then more heroic gnolls/scarecrows. It was actually a while before I ever went to Blackburrow. I miss the feeling I had close to launch when everyone was a noob, grouping up in Antonica but meh... those days are gone.

[Lancaster38]

Arbreth wrote:

I must be a glutton for punishment, I miss shards and the old evil Nek. It took me more than two years to level my main (a mystic) to 70, I know her inside and out. It took me four months to level my swashy to 40, I do not understand her at all, and have been avoiding playing her. Ditto the monk, at 20 she collects dust and will be RoK fodder, perhaps I will do better next time? My baby warlock leapt 8 levels in a few hours of play in Fallen Gate (unmentored), she is 26 now and I HAVE to go solo with her for a few days to figure out what she does with all those new spells... However, this one I will keep, I love a challenge. I like solo stuff, I also like to group and taking a simple stroll like Antonica is one big Disney Park is boring.  They should be looking for ways to bring folk BACK to those zones, not shuffling them through so fast that they have no idea that there is lots of nooks and crannies out there. People want more content, if a player can hit 20 without ever leaving the gate, then what is outside the gate should be tougher and more interesting. You already stated that the population of lower leveled toons (can I assume 25 and less?) is low, so why give them a huge, empty place to never see another soul in? Keep solo content, it is needed (and was for a while at the appropriate levels), but give us something to think about, a reason to look around and pay attention.  Go ahead and plunk a level 60^^^ epic X3 bear in Antonica and have it wander about!

Actually, taking out the heroic mobs allows people to see more of the zone since they dont have to avoid certain areas. And turn off combat XP if you think you're levelling too quickly.

This is the natural progression of big MMO's, the game starts out with a lot of content for the early and mid-levels with little for the high levels, then updates and expansions focus on the high levels once the population starts to skew that way.  The original lowbie zones have to be nerfed or new players will be discouraged from progressing because there just arent that many ppl in those zones anymore.

[Sassinak]

gatrm wrote:

I wouldn't mind these changes if it were still possible to find heroic content in Antonica, Commonlands, Nek Forest (and yeah, i have noticed they did the same to CoB).

Want heroic content in Commonlands?  It's there - just go to Wailing Caves or Fallen Gate or Training Grounds or Eternal Gorge or Gobblerock's Hideout. Want heroic content in Nektulos?  It's there - just go to Nektropos or Witch's Cove or Tombs of Night or Underrot Caves or Dire Hollow. It was never convenient to do heroic content outdoors.  It's too spread out.  Dungeons were always the preferred place to group.  Who cares about the loss of a few outdoor heroic mobs.  We have such better dungeon content today, we don't need outdoor heroics.  And I say this as a person who enjoyed EQ2 at the 2004 launch very much.