Raid Monks are now Extinct - Page 2

Wildfury77 · 08-02-2007, 10:42 PM

Xanthar@Unrest wrote:

Yes, this is all good news. My interest was peaked when I read the patch notes.
However, the raid now sees the vastly larger benefit the Dirge is to the raid and considers it my main now. Even with my Monk uber-geared and my Dirge with partly Treasured stuff still, he still contributes far more. Unless the Monk is TRULY fixed, and can offer something the raid will druel over (like CoB or Stoneskin), mine will stay a group/solo Monk at best.
I'm kinda thinking it's a bit too late, unless they make the Monk REALLY needed... not just "nice to have."
Sometimes, when they don't listen long enough, it becomes too late.
I'd like to see Chi's timer reduced to say, 5 minutes, so I can use it more than 8 or 9 times in a 2 hour raid. 12 minute recast (with cast speed buffs) is a bit too long IMO. I mean, get real, even with Chi, it's not like we'll blow everyone else away. I can't get better than 3rd or 4th on the DPS parse even when I drop Chi. It's not too much to ask to shorten the timer.
As far as Altruism, yeah it's real nice. However, we can go some entire raids and never use it. Monks need something tangible; something uber. Feign Death WAS unique, but now every class, and their grandmas, can use it.
I don't know. I wish they'd do something to fix it now before they get so far removed no one will even take a chance on them anymore. I don't want tanking skills... if I wanted a tank I'd have rolled one. I'd like to get decent DPS, even on every 5th fight. Along with the proposed changes, a Chi reduced timer would sure be nice. Just not sure it even all that is enough. I'm not after everything, just enough to be really wanted.
While you're at it, free up the weapon restriction in the STR line.
It's funny, the entire time I played my Monk I was never recruited by another guild, and the only time I ever got a "I'm glad you're in my group" is when I used Fall of the Phoenix (group feign). I've been playing my Dirge 1/4 of the time that I've been playing my Monk and I've been recruited by 3 other guilds, and a SINGLE raid night does not go by where I don't get a tell, group message, raid message, or guild message saying how much they love me being there.
That wreaks of imbalance.

Boggles......I rolled a Monk as a Tank that can DPS.....last time i checked we arre meant to tanks. PLEASE be aware that there are LOADS of monks that would like our tanking skills improved SMILEY

Xanthar · 08-04-2007, 04:02 PM

Well, of course Monks *can* raid. But, before this latest round of changes, I couldn't, in good faith, tell my raid leader that I was *needed* more than other classes. When we're fighting tough mobs and need certain things, my Monk offerED nothing. Just about any other class can bring something NEEDFUL. Now, with the new updates, a Monk has an argument to be in raid. So, there's no need to get sarcastic and say you better tell your wife she can't raid, please understand my point. Before these aggro changes and casting speed changes, a Monk had very liitle to offer a raid that any other class couldn't do better.

As far as tanking, I didn't say I didn't want better mitigation, avoidance, or defense. What I'm saying is that if you're using a Monk as a tank on raids, you're seriously hurting. A Monk can not be your guild's main tank. So, yeah, a little tanking here and there, sure. But, no one makes a Monk to be a guild tank. That was my point. If you want a guild tank you'll make a plate tank.

Please don't assume I'm stupid and think I said Monks can't raid or tank, period. Obviouly there was more to my words than simply that. I thought I explained myself enough to get past that. And, obviously, they *can* raid and they *can* tank. Please look for context.

Wolphin · 08-04-2007, 07:49 PM

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:

Bladewind wrote:
We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide. It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing. Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide.
I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it

ok, am I missing something? Where is this raidwide buff everyone keeps talking about?

Our buff that increases attack and now casting speed is group only.

Our avoidance buff we can now cast on one raid ally rather then one group ally.

Is this something that hasn't been put in yet?

Xanthar · 08-04-2007, 11:33 PM

This raidwide deaggro seems to just be a gimmick. It deaggros the entire raid (less fighters) for about 850 to just over 1,000 every 20 seconds (17.8 on my Monk). So, if you use the total number you're getting approximately 20,000 *uniits* of deaggro total (give or take how many fighters you have in your raid.) every 18-20 seconds. That's sounds wonderful. But, let's look at it realistically...

In the "real" EQ world there will only be a few key people who would ever steal aggro from the tank anyway. The 1,000/20 second deaggro to those people who generate 3,000 DPS is pretty insignificant. I admit I don't know the formula for figuring hate gain per DPS generated, but it seems insignificant to me.

What you need to do is what I suggested on a different thread a while back. This deaggro needs to be for a group, and tripled in number. So, we can put the top 3 or 4 DPSers (generally the ones who steal aggro) in that group and it would function much better. So, we could then deaggro for 3,000/18 seconds. That's still borderline for being effective, considering you'll have the highest hate gainers in the group. Most people on the raid really have no need for this deaggro.

Wolphin · 08-05-2007, 12:17 AM

are you referring to one of the final AAs on the EoF tree? the Evade Check? That isn't what the folks in the topic are talking about when they are talking about the raidwide dps inrease is it?

It will only deagro the entire raid if everyone is within 15m of the mob. Doesn't the description say that you have to be within 10 meters of the mob your casting it on and then it only affects people within 15m of the mob? That isn't going to affect alot of the casters and ranged melee, if they are at max range to avoid AoEs and things, so they won't have their agro reduced. About the only people it will affect are non-bow scout classes and maybe some pets if they are included.

Xanthar · 08-05-2007, 11:19 AM

You are correct. They are speaking about 2 different things.

The increase in raid DPS they are speaking about is the new casting speed buff that Monks get for their group. Even though it only affects their group, it will raise overall raid DPS. They aren't saying it buffs the entire raid, but that it buffs the DPS the entire raid can do. I can see where it's confusing at first glance.

And, you are correct about range. I hadn't considered that yet as I was just looking at max possible gain for deaggro to the raid. Even at max (assuming it hit everyone), it's not near enough to be effective since it deaggros everyone equally and doesn't deaggro those that really need it near enough.

Since the raidwide deaggro and the group casting speed buff both have ranges, it's very possible, even likely, that some will be OoR and lower their overall effectiveness.

Bladewind · 08-05-2007, 02:08 PM

Wolphin wrote:

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:
Bladewind wrote:
We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide. It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing. Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide.
I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it
ok, am I missing something? Where is this raidwide buff everyone keeps talking about?
Our buff that increases attack and now casting speed is group only.
Our avoidance buff we can now cast on one raid ally rather then one group ally.
Is this something that hasn't been put in yet?

Our group buff (melee haste +casting speed) is going raidwide along with other unknown fighter changes next LU. That is what everyone is talking about.

Evade check is group only, not raidwide. There have been no published plans to change this (it was just changed from self to group in this last LU).

Xanthar · 08-05-2007, 04:45 PM

Bladewind wrote:

Evade check is group only, not raidwide. There have been no published plans to change this (it was just changed from self to group in this last LU).

Evade Check in my Monk AA tree says "all allies..."

So, it depends on what they mean by "allies." It is deaggro on the encounter that affects all allies. I read that as all in your group or raid. My opinion is Evade Check is a raid wide deaggro.

Nokrahs · 08-05-2007, 07:37 PM

just played four Raids since latest GU with my new EoF Spec (Evade Check / Monkey Stance / Taunts) and noticed a huge difference in agro for myself while dealing dmg. raid parsed me 1300ish average zonewide after the raids and 1700 top on some encountes with a "ok" group (dirge/inqui with me), Gear is KoS Fabled standards with the usual adornments. KoS Build is WIS/INT (both end skill and maxed crits/crane flock) so I used to hit higher numbers on group encouters of course. however, the problem is to actually parse the portion of deagro coming from EvadeCheck for the group (can only rely on numbers which is 18k average deagro on a full group per Minute without fighters in it and myself in monkey stance) since I don't get any numbers in the combat logs (same goes for taunt of course). at least I feel a little more important mashing that EvadeCheck Button soon as it pops and telling the group about the expected effects. the new upgraded group buff is great and everyone with long spells loves that. so after crying a river behind my keyboard for no upgrades regarding monk tanking abilities I feel at least improved in usefulness to a point now. is it wrong hoping for more in the future?

08-02-2007, 10:42 PM	#31
Wildfury77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 683	Xanthar@Unrest wrote: Yes, this is all good news. My interest was peaked when I read the patch notes. However, the raid now sees the vastly larger benefit the Dirge is to the raid and considers it my main now. Even with my Monk uber-geared and my Dirge with partly Treasured stuff still, he still contributes far more. Unless the Monk is TRULY fixed, and can offer something the raid will druel over (like CoB or Stoneskin), mine will stay a group/solo Monk at best. I'm kinda thinking it's a bit too late, unless they make the Monk REALLY needed... not just "nice to have." Sometimes, when they don't listen long enough, it becomes too late. I'd like to see Chi's timer reduced to say, 5 minutes, so I can use it more than 8 or 9 times in a 2 hour raid. 12 minute recast (with cast speed buffs) is a bit too long IMO. I mean, get real, even with Chi, it's not like we'll blow everyone else away. I can't get better than 3rd or 4th on the DPS parse even when I drop Chi. It's not too much to ask to shorten the timer. As far as Altruism, yeah it's real nice. However, we can go some entire raids and never use it. Monks need something tangible; something uber. Feign Death WAS unique, but now every class, and their grandmas, can use it. I don't know. I wish they'd do something to fix it now before they get so far removed no one will even take a chance on them anymore. I don't want tanking skills... if I wanted a tank I'd have rolled one. I'd like to get decent DPS, even on every 5th fight. Along with the proposed changes, a Chi reduced timer would sure be nice. Just not sure it even all that is enough. I'm not after everything, just enough to be really wanted. While you're at it, free up the weapon restriction in the STR line. It's funny, the entire time I played my Monk I was never recruited by another guild, and the only time I ever got a "I'm glad you're in my group" is when I used Fall of the Phoenix (group feign). I've been playing my Dirge 1/4 of the time that I've been playing my Monk and I've been recruited by 3 other guilds, and a SINGLE raid night does not go by where I don't get a tell, group message, raid message, or guild message saying how much they love me being there. That wreaks of imbalance. Boggles......I rolled a Monk as a Tank that can DPS.....last time i checked we arre meant to tanks. PLEASE be aware that there are LOADS of monks that would like our tanking skills improved

08-04-2007, 07:49 PM	#33
Wolphin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 235	CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: Bladewind wrote: We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide. It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing. Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide. I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it ok, am I missing something? Where is this raidwide buff everyone keeps talking about? Our buff that increases attack and now casting speed is group only. Our avoidance buff we can now cast on one raid ally rather then one group ally. Is this something that hasn't been put in yet? __________________

08-05-2007, 12:17 AM	#35
Wolphin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 235	are you referring to one of the final AAs on the EoF tree? the Evade Check? That isn't what the folks in the topic are talking about when they are talking about the raidwide dps inrease is it? It will only deagro the entire raid if everyone is within 15m of the mob. Doesn't the description say that you have to be within 10 meters of the mob your casting it on and then it only affects people within 15m of the mob? That isn't going to affect alot of the casters and ranged melee, if they are at max range to avoid AoEs and things, so they won't have their agro reduced. About the only people it will affect are non-bow scout classes and maybe some pets if they are included. __________________

08-05-2007, 02:08 PM	#37
Bladewind Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 783	Wolphin wrote: CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: Bladewind wrote: We will also give +15% casting speed bonus raidwide. It does not effect monks too much (small dps boost due to less displaced auto attacks), but it is a very nice bonus for long-casting classes like mages and healers - this will increase caster dps and healing. Raidwide haste will increase melee dps raidwide. I can't wait to see what effect the changes have on the Raid DPS totals actually. Looking forward to it ok, am I missing something? Where is this raidwide buff everyone keeps talking about? Our buff that increases attack and now casting speed is group only. Our avoidance buff we can now cast on one raid ally rather then one group ally. Is this something that hasn't been put in yet? Our group buff (melee haste +casting speed) is going raidwide along with other unknown fighter changes next LU. That is what everyone is talking about. Evade check is group only, not raidwide. There have been no published plans to change this (it was just changed from self to group in this last LU). __________________

08-05-2007, 04:45 PM	#38
Xanthar Server: Unrest Guild: Enlightened Dark Rank: Raid alts & bots Defender Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 27	Bladewind wrote: Evade check is group only, not raidwide. There have been no published plans to change this (it was just changed from self to group in this last LU). Evade Check in my Monk AA tree says "all allies..." So, it depends on what they mean by "allies." It is deaggro on the encounter that affects all allies. I read that as all in your group or raid. My opinion is Evade Check is a raid wide deaggro.

08-04-2007, 04:02 PM	#32
Xanthar Server: Unrest Guild: Enlightened Dark Rank: Raid alts & bots Defender Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 27	Well, of course Monks can raid. But, before this latest round of changes, I couldn't, in good faith, tell my raid leader that I was needed more than other classes. When we're fighting tough mobs and need certain things, my Monk offerED nothing. Just about any other class can bring something NEEDFUL. Now, with the new updates, a Monk has an argument to be in raid. So, there's no need to get sarcastic and say you better tell your wife she can't raid, please understand my point. Before these aggro changes and casting speed changes, a Monk had very liitle to offer a raid that any other class couldn't do better. As far as tanking, I didn't say I didn't want better mitigation, avoidance, or defense. What I'm saying is that if you're using a Monk as a tank on raids, you're seriously hurting. A Monk can not be your guild's main tank. So, yeah, a little tanking here and there, sure. But, no one makes a Monk to be a guild tank. That was my point. If you want a guild tank you'll make a plate tank. Please don't assume I'm stupid and think I said Monks can't raid or tank, period. Obviouly there was more to my words than simply that. I thought I explained myself enough to get past that. And, obviously, they can raid and they can tank. Please look for context.

08-04-2007, 11:33 PM	#34
Xanthar Server: Unrest Guild: Enlightened Dark Rank: Raid alts & bots Defender Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 27	This raidwide deaggro seems to just be a gimmick. It deaggros the entire raid (less fighters) for about 850 to just over 1,000 every 20 seconds (17.8 on my Monk). So, if you use the total number you're getting approximately 20,000 uniits of deaggro total (give or take how many fighters you have in your raid.) every 18-20 seconds. That's sounds wonderful. But, let's look at it realistically... In the "real" EQ world there will only be a few key people who would ever steal aggro from the tank anyway. The 1,000/20 second deaggro to those people who generate 3,000 DPS is pretty insignificant. I admit I don't know the formula for figuring hate gain per DPS generated, but it seems insignificant to me. What you need to do is what I suggested on a different thread a while back. This deaggro needs to be for a group, and tripled in number. So, we can put the top 3 or 4 DPSers (generally the ones who steal aggro) in that group and it would function much better. So, we could then deaggro for 3,000/18 seconds. That's still borderline for being effective, considering you'll have the highest hate gainers in the group. Most people on the raid really have no need for this deaggro.

08-05-2007, 11:19 AM	#36
Xanthar Server: Unrest Guild: Enlightened Dark Rank: Raid alts & bots Defender Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 27	You are correct. They are speaking about 2 different things. The increase in raid DPS they are speaking about is the new casting speed buff that Monks get for their group. Even though it only affects their group, it will raise overall raid DPS. They aren't saying it buffs the entire raid, but that it buffs the DPS the entire raid can do. I can see where it's confusing at first glance. And, you are correct about range. I hadn't considered that yet as I was just looking at max possible gain for deaggro to the raid. Even at max (assuming it hit everyone), it's not near enough to be effective since it deaggros everyone equally and doesn't deaggro those that really need it near enough. Since the raidwide deaggro and the group casting speed buff both have ranges, it's very possible, even likely, that some will be OoR and lower their overall effectiveness.

08-05-2007, 07:37 PM	#39
Nokrahs Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 70	just played four Raids since latest GU with my new EoF Spec (Evade Check / Monkey Stance / Taunts) and noticed a huge difference in agro for myself while dealing dmg. raid parsed me 1300ish average zonewide after the raids and 1700 top on some encountes with a "ok" group (dirge/inqui with me), Gear is KoS Fabled standards with the usual adornments. KoS Build is WIS/INT (both end skill and maxed crits/crane flock) so I used to hit higher numbers on group encouters of course. however, the problem is to actually parse the portion of deagro coming from EvadeCheck for the group (can only rely on numbers which is 18k average deagro on a full group per Minute without fighters in it and myself in monkey stance) since I don't get any numbers in the combat logs (same goes for taunt of course). at least I feel a little more important mashing that EvadeCheck Button soon as it pops and telling the group about the expected effects. the new upgraded group buff is great and everyone with long spells loves that. so after crying a river behind my keyboard for no upgrades regarding monk tanking abilities I feel at least improved in usefulness to a point now. is it wrong hoping for more in the future?