Struggling with a decision.....

[Blazzo]

I have been playing EQ2 for about 2 years now very casually.  The last 4 months I started a new job which gave me my evening free.  I had always wanted to raid so I joined a very casual raiding guild.... before that I was instance shopping every night.  Sometimes find a group, sometimes not.  Had done every instance countless times and the game was really starting to get boring.  So raiding comes along and saves me so to speak.  I joined a guild that raided about 3-4 times a week and really could only do KoS zones consistantly.  Now that was fun for awhile but I got the itch to see the EoF zones.  Since I play a class that every raid guild seems to always be seeking I talked to the leader of the top raiding guild on my server.  He told me they raid 6-7 nights a week and i have to be on call for all contested.  I figured I would give it a shot. 

I have been there 2 weeks now and from a gaming perspective it has been incredible.  In one night we cleared FTH, MMIS and Chel Drak without one wipe.  Did EH in under 7 hours on a Saturday.  The loot is incredible, the fights are very challenging and require skill and teamwork.... EVERYTHING I have wanted in the game....but --------  I seriously cannot handle the level of immaturity and the yelling and screaming. 

A few nights ago we did the new zone Throne of New Tunaria.  We wiped quite a few times.  On Ventrillo I heard every cuss word countless times, racist comments, talk about fecal matter, anti-[Removed for Content], drug chat, sexual references etc etc etc etc.  There were honestly 10 seperate YELLING matches that were very personal and hurtful to people.  I have never seen (or heard) anything like it.  A lot of the guild is over 26 too, I was in total shock.

There is no way I can handle any more nights of this yelling and stuff, period... but I don't want to go back to instance shopping after doing what I have done.  THere are 2 other raid guilds that raid a lot but they are almost exactly like this one from what I hear.  Isnt there a hardcore raiding guild that has a policy of respect, civility and calmness?  Do they exist?  I want to raid and want to raid the way this guild does, but cant handle the attitudes.  I just know if I go back to instances I will get bored and possibally quit.

What should I do?!?! 

[Snowdonia]

Only three things you can do. Say something and hope it gets better (small chance of that happening, you never know). Shut up and put up with it. Save your sanity, leave, and take your chances with the boredom. I can't STAND real guilds personally, much less raiding guilds. And this was before voice chat clients. Too much stress and by your accounts, immaturity to boot. I'd take the possibility of boredom and the sanctity of my sanity over phat lewts any day! Anyways, there's always RoK in Nov. And the new Harry Potter book comes out on the 21st for the short term.

[espy]

There tends to be a lot of arrogance around high end guild, it comes with being the best, and ppl start to think they can achieve anything, then get away with anything. You are always going to get immature people (of all ages) in any given guild, the question is the balance, and how mature/tolerant the top guys are.

Obviously you need to quit your guild. Try the other guilds, if for no other reason only to see if there are like minded people there. You spend a substantial amount of time in game, so get to know the mature raiders and try forming your own guild if you have to,

Last resort might be to switch server if you find a suitable guild elsewhere.

[Camibella]

Blazzo wrote:

On Ventrillo I heard every cuss word countless times, racist comments, talk about fecal matter, anti-[Removed for Content], drug chat, sexual references etc etc etc etc.  There were honestly 10 seperate YELLING matches that were very personal and hurtful to people.  I have never seen (or heard) anything like it.  A lot of the guild is over 26 too, I was in total shock.

What should I do?!?! 

Mute and Ignore! Seriously, unless its your officers / raidleader right click on there name, go to user, and select "Mute" =)

If its an officer or a raidleader ask them to lead with a little more tact =)

[SageGaspar]

In my experience it's tough to find 24 competent EQ2 players that you can put together on vent without it turning obnoxious in short order. Adults, kids, doesn't matter. Maybe we oughta pick a server and form up a raid guild of people that don't make you lose faith in humanity But really, if it's that annoying to you it's not worth staying. After that initial novelty of being able to conquer content, you're going to be doing the same thing over and over again for the next couple months until RoK with that same group of people. And if you don't like them, why would you put yourself through that? If you're really bored with the game, there's RoK in a couple months, and personally what's helped a lot for me is trying a class that's a lot different from what I played before. I've been almost entirely a melee fighter/scout player over the last couple years, and I just rolled an illusionist this time. It's really a completely different experience and makes the game a lot more interesting.

[Cathars]

Rather than looking for a hardcore raiding guild, you might want to consider just a raiding guild.  Change your standards and you'll have a ton more options so you can join the guild that fits you better personally.  I promise you there's plenty of guilds out there that run orgainzed raids and have respectful voice chat.  You may not be in the server's top one or two guilds in terms of content, but it'll be much more enjoyable.  And to be honest ... the atmosphere of guild competition isn't what it was in EQ1.  There may be other guilds on my server but I don't notice them or care what they're doing. 

[VizP]

Oddly I have not run into what you have described but I think its because of the way I have found myself in guilds both in this game and others. I tend not to approach guilds but let them approach me - that way I can decide whether we are appropriate for each other. As a healer this is an advantage obviously of the class being needed in raids amd to talk about my current guild, we have managed to achieve a balance of very respectable friendly people, we raid 3 to 4 days a week and are currently working on the EoF zones. I can't even recall if I have ever heard anyone swear on voice and everyone seems to know what they are doing and work wonderfully together. Ours is a Euro-heavy guild though but I think its a case of seeing whether the personalities of the guild match yours as well as the type of guild. Raiding is a lot of fun but depends a LOT on the company you have - not only do they need to be good but they also need to be decent people. The world we are in, high level raiding breeds arrogance and conceited people which are 'not' good company - as suggested above, look around, there 'are' guilds of decent people that can mix high level raiding and tactics with decency. But unlike hardcore loud mouthed raiders, they are a lot more quieter and modest so you would have to look a lot closer within the server.

[Korpo]

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

[Jeger_Wulf]

There are good rading guilds - keep looking. I've had the good fortune to raid with a couple.

[Siclone]

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

yeah it does.  He is right they are wrong.  This is a right and a wrong way.  Foul language and fighting is the wrong way.  people have kids and family members walking by, completely inappropriate to use gutter speak in Vent. fighting is not enjoyable, and ruins the game for the rest of the peeps.  people rubbing you the wrong way is not his complaint. your comments our out of context.  Foul language and people being abusive to each other is his compliant and he is right, thats wrong. Quite the guild.  Allot of the top end guilds are just jerks and loud mouths, realize that before you join.  There are good guilds that do blow though the content, but are very friendly and provide a fun atmosphere.  Look for one of them. 

[Talz]

You are the people you willingly surround yourself with. The fact you came here and asked means that you know it isn't right.  So the choice is to willingly spend your free time with people like that for items in a video game that your old guild can get better than in a few months or not.  It's really that simple. On call in a video game...  Tell them to join a basketball league or something.  Every server has those guilds.  Tell your real life friends about the situation.  If you're too embarrassed to do that then perhaps it's a situation you shouldn't be in. I don't mean to be harsh but asking if spending six or seven nights a week with degenerates for video game loot is a silly question. Edit: typo

[Lancaster38]

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.

[Kendricke]

Lancaster38 wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.

You're confusing personal ethics with successful skillsets.  A "well-run guild" is an incredibly subjective ideal.  Just because we don't allow such tirades in my guild doesn't mean we don't fully understand that other guilds have much looser standards on language than we do.  It certainly doesn't mean the guild isn't "well-run".

If you heard half the locker room talk from top dollar professional athletes who were competing at the absolute top levels of their sport, I imagine you'd find yourself just as shocked by "hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene ... chat".  I'd certainly say that it has little to do with how "well-run" the team is, wouldn't you?

Each guild is different.  So long as the standards are known before joining, there's not really much one can do regarding the guild itself.  Just as I've had a few confrontations with members who joined my own Legion not realizing how strict we locked down chat (they felt we were too restrictive), I can certainly empathize with a guild officer who is suddenly dealing with a new member who feels the chat is too loose. 

We hold our guild membership to some fairly strict standards of speech.  This does not correlate to skill or success, however.  Other guilds have looser standards.  Neither is any more "right" than the other, so long as the officers and members stick to their own standards. 

[Korpo]

Lancaster38 wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.

Of course it does, see the complaint above about the well-run raiding guild that allows hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat. You are confusing your desires for reality.

[dpsman]

Well lets face it, age dosn't really matter. Seriously your surrounding yourself with people that commit their life to raiding 5.6.7 days a week and who knows how many hours each night. Anyone that spends that much time imo is iresponsible as an adult if they are one, I know I used to be there and put an end to it. I really wonder about parental supervision these days, does anyone here honestly think it's ok for a parent to allow a child to spend enough time online to be in a hardocre raiding guild?

I was in one of the top high end guilds out of all servers in EQ1 and people were always treated with respect, any verbal abuse..etc, would most surely get you the boot. If that kind of behaviour is going on then it sounds like you have poor leadership, there is more to leadership than killing an imaginary pixel that hits back.

[Korpo]

Siclone wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

yeah it does.  He is right they are wrong.  This is a right and a wrong way.  Foul language and fighting is the wrong way.  people have kids and family members walking by, completely inappropriate to use gutter speak in Vent. fighting is not enjoyable, and ruins the game for the rest of the peeps.  people rubbing you the wrong way is not his complaint. your comments our out of context.  Foul language and people being abusive to each other is his compliant and he is right, thats wrong. Quite the guild.  Allot of the top end guilds are just jerks and loud mouths, realize that before you join.  There are good guilds that do blow though the content, but are very friendly and provide a fun atmosphere.  Look for one of them. 

If people have kids and family members within earshot of language that they deem offensive, then those people need to make sure their kids and family can't hear the language, either by removing those people, turning off vent, getting headphones, or any of the hundreds of other solutions. If you choose to consume "offensive" content, then you need to take the responsibility to make sure those that might be offended aren't. Asking the content to change based upon your living situation is silly. Do you blame pornographers if you choose to watch pornography around your kids? Do you blame movie makers if you choose to watch a particularly violent movie around your kids? Do you blame Fear Factor if you turn it on during dinner and puke because you see someone eating a rotten horse? Actually, you probably do, we live in a society of victims. In case nobody told you, the internet and internet-based games are not kindergarten, nor are they Mayberry. Further, in case nobody told you, not everybody on the face of the earth holds the same values as you do, and one person's offensive content is another person's normal way of speaking. Obviously that guild isn't for this guy, just like Fear Factor isn't for me. Because I don't walk through life expecting it to change to suit my whims, I don't watch Fear Factor.

[Lancaster38]

Kendricke wrote:

Lancaster38 wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.

You're confusing personal ethics with successful skillsets.  A "well-run guild" is an incredibly subjective ideal.  Just because we don't allow such tirades in my guild doesn't mean we don't fully understand that other guilds have much looser standards on language than we do.  It certainly doesn't mean the guild isn't "well-run".

If you heard half the locker room talk from top dollar professional athletes who were competing at the absolute top levels of their sport, I imagine you'd find yourself just as shocked by "hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene ... chat".  I'd certainly say that it has little to do with how "well-run" the team is, wouldn't you?

Each guild is different.  So long as the standards are known before joining, there's not really much one can do regarding the guild itself.  Just as I've had a few confrontations with members who joined my own Legion not realizing how strict we locked down chat (they felt we were too restrictive), I can certainly empathize with a guild officer who is suddenly dealing with a new member who feels the chat is too loose. 

We hold our guild membership to some fairly strict standards of speech.  This does not correlate to skill or success, however.  Other guilds have looser standards.  Neither is any more "right" than the other, so long as the officers and members stick to their own standards. 

So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. 

I would hope we can agree that there are certain standards in any guild's chat that contribute to a fun gaming experience...hate-fueled, or otherwise obscene talk wouldn't qualify. Just because you believe in some kind of ethical relativity on a guild-by-guild basis doesn''t make it okay. Sony looks down on obscene/harassing language anyway, so it doesnt matter what guild standards are.  Also, MMO's are not analagous to locker rooms, due to the transient nature of the player base, a guild that doesn't keep watch on it's own chat is going to run into problems at some point.

 If I am understanding the OP correctly, there was little turmoil before the guild starting having difficulties and then the ugly language started up. Now the OP is posting here, struggling with the decision to leave the guild...there may be others in the guild who are thinking the same thing, and either they leave or say something to the leadership. Should the leaders not address the complaints, they will most likely lose potentially valuable teammates and the guild falls apart..and so, the tone and language of a guild has nothing to do with its success?

[Korpo]

dpsman wrote:

Well lets face it, age dosn't really matter. Seriously your surrounding yourself with people that commit their life to raiding 5.6.7 days a week and who knows how many hours each night. Anyone that spends that much time imo is iresponsible as an adult if they are one, I know I used to be there and put an end to it. I really wonder about parental supervision these days, does anyone here honestly think it's ok for a parent to allow a child to spend enough time online to be in a hardocre raiding guild?

Most hardcore raid guilds don't allow children. How is a person "iresponsible as an adult" just because they choose to spend their time playing EQ2? My old job allowed me to sit around playing EQ2 all I wanted, as there was no expectation that I'd be at work unless there was work to be done. Somehow my video game playing made me "iresponsible as an adult", even though I used my maaaaaaaassive salary to pay all my bills, put extra away for a rainy day, play with my kid, keep the house clean, and have a social life? That you became "iresponsible as an adult" when you played too much EQ only reflects on you, not everyone that chooses to play video games for entertainment.

[Korpo]

Lancaster38 wrote:

So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. 

I would hope we can agree that there are certain standards in any guild's chat that contribute to a fun gaming experience...hate-fueled, or otherwise obscene talk wouldn't qualify. Just because you believe in some kind of ethical relativity on a guild-by-guild basis doesn''t make it okay. Sony looks down on obscene/harassing language anyway, so it doesnt matter what guild standards are.  Also, MMO's are not analagous to locker rooms, due to the transient nature of the player base, a guild that doesn't keep watch on it's own chat is going to run into problems at some point.

He holds his guildies to speech standards because he wants to. Other guilds don't hold people to speech standards because they don't want to. It's pretty simple. No, we cannot agree that there are certain standards that contribute to a fun experience, because different people have fun in different ways. Would you expect a minister and his family to have a fun experience at a Chris Rock show? Of course not, he'd probably find it crude and not in the least bit funny. Despite what the minister's family thinks, there are millions out there going to Chris Rock shows. Are they wrong? Is the minister? As for Sony, they can look down on all the obscene/harassing language they want. They can buy the Hubble telescope, turn it to the locker room at my high school, and look down on it 24x7. Fortunately, since Sony has nothing to do with guild Vent conversations, it doesn't matter what Sony thinks. Uh oh, I just called my boss on the phone and told him that this guy I play EQ2 with has carnal relations with other men. Sound the alarm!

[Lornick]

Sarynety@Crushbone wrote:

Mute and Ignore! Seriously, unless its your officers / raidleader right click on there name, go to user, and select "Mute" =)

If its an officer or a raidleader ask them to lead with a little more tact =)

I think this is your best bet.  As long as you can hear the raid leaders commands you don't really need to hear the peons ripping into each other.

[Lancaster38]

Korpo wrote:

Lancaster38 wrote:

So, why do you hold your guild membership to any standards, if it does not correlate to success? Let them say the worst things they can think, it's all good. You don't, because it would cause bad feelings, possibly a bad rep for the guild, and, inevitably, the guild disbanding. 

I would hope we can agree that there are certain standards in any guild's chat that contribute to a fun gaming experience...hate-fueled, or otherwise obscene talk wouldn't qualify. Just because you believe in some kind of ethical relativity on a guild-by-guild basis doesn''t make it okay. Sony looks down on obscene/harassing language anyway, so it doesnt matter what guild standards are.  Also, MMO's are not analagous to locker rooms, due to the transient nature of the player base, a guild that doesn't keep watch on it's own chat is going to run into problems at some point.

He holds his guildies to speech standards because he wants to. Other guilds don't hold people to speech standards because they don't want to. It's pretty simple.

Okay, WHY does he WANT speech standards? Must I spell it all out for you? It's not as simple as wanting it or not, there are reasons for guidelines. No, we cannot agree that there are certain standards that contribute to a fun experience, because different people have fun in different ways. Would you expect a minister and his family to have a fun experience at a Chris Rock show? Of course not, he'd probably find it crude and not in the least bit funny. Despite what the minister's family thinks, there are millions out there going to Chris Rock shows. Are they wrong? Is the minister?

And Michael Richards said "Ni**er" during one of his routines and was roundly criticized for it, and what's interesting is he wasn't making a joke, he was lashing out in anger at some hecklers. Do you think either he or the audience can look back on that and say it was fun? Similarly, angry and out of control slur-flinging in guild chat would not be considered fun by any reasonable person. Do you honestly think what happened in this guy's guild chat could be construed as anything other than an uncomfortable and offensive mess? Are you human? As for Sony, they can look down on all the obscene/harassing language they want. They can buy the Hubble telescope, turn it to the locker room at my high school, and look down on it 24x7. Fortunately, since Sony has nothing to do with guild Vent conversations, it doesn't matter what Sony thinks. Uh oh, I just called my boss on the phone and told him that this guy I play EQ2 with has carnal relations with other men. Sound the alarm!

Ah, if this all happened in Vent, then you are correct. Sony has no power over that.

[mellowknees72]

Lancaster38 wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

Wrong. A well-run guild, raiding or casual, does not put up with hurtful, racist, homophobic, and obviously obscene vent chat.

I agree with Lancaster38 - any guild that allows members to abuse one another, verbally or otherwise, is not worth your time.

It's not a matter of someone rubbing another person the wrong way - this comes down to respect for other human beings.

[Jai1]

I think when the expectations of success cause frustration and people become distruptive and out of order, it's a bad atmosphere.  I don't choose to be a part of guild whose drama prevails the communication and individuals see the game as transperent that allows immature behavior to come through.  Not all guilds are like that.  The best raid guilds IMO do not say much in chat and less on vent.  I think my old GL said once that you can yell and scream all you want off the mic but not on it.  One of my guilds did and I've had good luck on Najena although my raiding in on hold atm.  Raid and guild leaders should primarily be talking on vent with information coming back to them from players when asked and not free-for-all VoIP.

Sometimes there is a compromise between tolerable enviroments and successful raiding but that is not always the case.  There are guilds that allow you to have a life and they still conquer the hardest content in the game.  I think it depends on leadership.  Adults running a guild like non-disruptive business unit and not like atheletes in the locker can have just as much success raiding.  I think it boils down to the server and/or the guild's leadership as well as it's culture. 

[Korpo]

Lancaster38 wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Lancaster38 wrote:

He holds his guildies to speech standards because he wants to. Other guilds don't hold people to speech standards because they don't want to. It's pretty simple.

Okay, WHY does he WANT speech standards? Must I spell it all out for you? It's not as simple as wanting it or not, there are reasons for guidelines.

He wants his speech standards because those are the standards he wants. Again, it's simple. You seem to have a problem understanding the fact that other people don't find enjoyment in the exact things you enjoy, or aren't offended at the exact things you are offended with.

Just like some people prefer roast beef to turkey, or prefer blue shirts to red, or prefer brushing their teeth up and down to side to side, people have different preferences in what they want in a guild. Kendricke prefers his guild to be family-friendly, others don't care about that.

If someone that likes roast beef came over to my house, and all I served was turkey, that person may not have a good time. That's fine, that's his choice, he can just not eat at my house anymore. It doesn't mean turkey is wrong and roast beef is right, it just means that his choice in meats is different than mine. No, we cannot agree that there are certain standards that contribute to a fun experience, because different people have fun in different ways. Would you expect a minister and his family to have a fun experience at a Chris Rock show? Of course not, he'd probably find it crude and not in the least bit funny. Despite what the minister's family thinks, there are millions out there going to Chris Rock shows. Are they wrong? Is the minister?

And Michael Richards said "Ni**er" during one of his routines and was roundly criticized for it, and what's interesting is he wasn't making a joke, he was lashing out in anger at some hecklers. Do you think either he or the audience can look back on that and say it was fun? Similarly, angry and out of control slur-flinging in guild chat would not be considered fun by any reasonable person. Do you honestly think what happened in this guy's guild chat could be construed as anything other than an uncomfortable and offensive mess? Are you human?

As I said, Chris Rock sells out venues left and right, plus has 560,345 movies, TV shows, and CDs under his belt. Many people find him offensive, but obviously not everyone. That you do or don't is irrelevant, the fact remains that a (large) segment of society thinks crude and offensive talk is funny. Those that choose to consume this content have every right to, those that choose not to have every right to avoid it. Those that choose not to see Chris Rock do not have the right to tell others they can't see Chris Rock.

As for Sony, they can look down on all the obscene/harassing language they want. They can buy the Hubble telescope, turn it to the locker room at my high school, and look down on it 24x7. Fortunately, since Sony has nothing to do with guild Vent conversations, it doesn't matter what Sony thinks. Uh oh, I just called my boss on the phone and told him that this guy I play EQ2 with has carnal relations with other men. Sound the alarm!

Ah, if this all happened in Vent, then you are correct. Sony has no power over that. That's why we read the original post before we start commenting, it helps prevent us from looking stupid.

[Levatino]

maybe I'm old fashioned but if you think it's wrong then say you think it's wrong.. Tell them to stop there foul language, I hope you are not the only one thinking that, so stand up against it and perhaps you'll find others who think the same way Also if they continue report them.

[Stuge]

Blazzo wrote:

What should I do?!?! 

Start your own. Seriously.

[KBern]

Siclone wrote:

Korpo wrote:

Your opinion of what's appropriate and proper conversation to have over Vent isn't the same as theirs. It doesn't mean theirs is wrong and yours is right any more than the converse. There are always going to be people in the world that rub you the wrong way. Develop a callus or continue to walk through life trying to change the world to your ideal, it's up to you.

yeah it does.  He is right they are wrong.  This is a right and a wrong way.  Foul language and fighting is the wrong way.  people have kids and family members walking by, completely inappropriate to use gutter speak in Vent. fighting is not enjoyable, and ruins the game for the rest of the peeps.  people rubbing you the wrong way is not his complaint. your comments our out of context.  Foul language and people being abusive to each other is his compliant and he is right, thats wrong. Quite the guild.  Allot of the top end guilds are just jerks and loud mouths, realize that before you join.  There are good guilds that do blow though the content, but are very friendly and provide a fun atmosphere.  Look for one of them. 

I agree with most of what you say except for that.

If someone is in an environ where language and adult topics should not be heard by others around their computer, then simply use headphones.

My guild is very mature, the average age is about 30.  However people do curse, off color jokes are bantered around, and people simply speak in a way that other adults would not be insulted by....one of the reasons we do not allow young kids in the guild.

[KBern]

Double Post

[KBern]

Levatino wrote:

maybe I'm old fashioned but if you think it's wrong then say you think it's wrong.. Tell them to stop there foul language, I hope you are not the only one thinking that, so stand up against it and perhaps you'll find others who think the same way Also if they continue report them.

Sorry, you cannot report people to SOE for how they talk in Vent.  The world doesnt work that way.

Korpo has it right...no matter how we each personally agree or disagree with actions or behavior, some thrive in that atmosphere, some detest it.

If the atmosphere you put yourself in does not agree with your personal standards, then leave.  The answer is simple.

[Kardg]

Korpo wrote: "A lot"

I find it somewhat amusing that no one can see the point your making, and a quite valid one at that. I whole heartedly agree with the statements made.

side note* The most funny statement by far goes to the fellow who said "Report them"; Now that is rich.