Experimenting with the Predator WIS AA Line - Page 2

kiaotokan · 07-06-2007, 06:59 AM

some intersting information to continue on with.

I use to have the str/ int aa line. I figure I try out the str/sta line. I watch the crit parsing and I noticed that agonizing pain would crit around 1k and flood my screen when I use to be str/int. When I moved to the str/stamina line, I noticed that agonizing rarely crits now and when it hits it only does about 500ish per trigger. thus I always try to hit frontload before I hit malignat mark just to up the trigger of agonizing pain. which I belive grants 10 triggers of the spell and 2 triggers to cast. I have to check into that more. In my thinking which could be incorrect. without spell criticals your giving up crit chances for weapon spell procs, malignant mark crit procs, poison procs (hemo). I personally wouldnt recommend anyone going down the stamina line. I think you loose to much. For the wisdom you do gain less hate and more stealth attack damage with one more addititonal stun that odly enough even affects epics. well we wanted more utility.

one other point is that I am not convinced frontload and bleed are the way to go anymore. I think i am gonna try out repeated stabbing and getaway. Just use getaway as means of one more stealth because that all its really good at. I was really upset when i found out it that the ae avoidance goes away when we attack. I immediately felt it was stupid and got rid of it. I dont parse 4k though on epics like i hear some assasin do. I am also new lvl 70 assasin who just got his claymore sword. Think i give the wisdom line shot when I can and see where it goes. thanks for the info. I really am trying to min max my char but man is it confusing.

Tolwynn · 07-06-2007, 08:28 AM

I re-spec'd to the STR/Wis lines last nite. Our guild hit Lyceum, nice place to test raid wise how well this will work. At first I was miffed, my dps was barely 1k. Then I remembered reading from others how you have to change the way you use your stealths and CA's. BINGO! My DPS went back up to where it always has been. It does take a bit of time and practice to figure out how to change your play, but after you do, the line is well worth it. Decap rarely hit for less than 20k(most were 20-26) and we did not even have a brig on the raid for debuffs. Smokebomb is a life saver! Tank starts getting low on health and pummeled to death, Smoke the mobs to give the healers that xtra second to heal the tank back up. It also gives your mezzers a chance to re-mez anything they need to as well.

Siclone · 07-06-2007, 10:15 AM

kiaotokan wrote:

some intersting information to continue on with.
I use to have the str/ int aa line. I figure I try out the str/sta line. I watch the crit parsing and I noticed that agonizing pain would crit around 1k and flood my screen when I use to be str/int. When I moved to the str/stamina line, I noticed that agonizing rarely crits now and when it hits it only does about 500ish per trigger. thus I always try to hit frontload before I hit malignat mark just to up the trigger of agonizing pain. which I belive grants 10 triggers of the spell and 2 triggers to cast. I have to check into that more. In my thinking which could be incorrect. without spell criticals your giving up crit chances for weapon spell procs, malignant mark crit procs, poison procs (hemo). I personally wouldnt recommend anyone going down the stamina line. I think you loose to much. For the wisdom you do gain less hate and more stealth attack damage with one more addititonal stun that odly enough even affects epics. well we wanted more utility.
one other point is that I am not convinced frontload and bleed are the way to go anymore. I think i am gonna try out repeated stabbing and getaway. Just use getaway as means of one more stealth because that all its really good at. I was really upset when i found out it that the ae avoidance goes away when we attack. I immediately felt it was stupid and got rid of it. I dont parse 4k though on epics like i hear some assasin do. I am also new lvl 70 assasin who just got his claymore sword. Think i give the wisdom line shot when I can and see where it goes. thanks for the info. I really am trying to min max my char but man is it confusing.

I think most relalize you will lose dps with sta/str for some of the reason you say.

I have getaway and RS. In my view they are the best. RS makes game play more fun for spaming.

Getaway adds a little utility with another in combat stealth and the option to have an ae avoid.

Siclone · 07-06-2007, 10:27 AM

Tolwynn wrote:

I re-spec'd to the STR/Wis lines last nite. Our guild hit Lyceum, nice place to test raid wise how well this will work. At first I was miffed, my dps was barely 1k. Then I remembered reading from others how you have to change the way you use your stealths and CA's. BINGO! My DPS went back up to where it always has been. It does take a bit of time and practice to figure out how to change your play, but after you do, the line is well worth it. Decap rarely hit for less than 20k(most were 20-26) and we did not even have a brig on the raid for debuffs. Smokebomb is a life saver! Tank starts getting low on health and pummeled to death, Smoke the mobs to give the healers that xtra second to heal the tank back up. It also gives your mezzers a chance to re-mez anything they need to as well.

Wis line has nothing to do with your CA critting. The fact that you are saying wis caused your decap to hit for over 20 k each time, leads me to think that you really don't have a good crasp on what is going on.

so you went from 1 k,,,,,til you hit your stealth attacks all 2 of them, that had 8 percnet damage to each, and that alone added what 800 dps?

if your decap normally hit for 10 k, it would do 10.8k Thats hardly a huge number or difference.

I tried this personaly so I know that no way does Wis line have the same dps as Int line.

smoke bomb is cool though.

CyriexVTZ · 07-06-2007, 10:34 AM

Thats funny Silicone because a growing number of people have now moved to STR/WIS and 'tried it personally' and found the damage is comparable to STR/INT Those that have managed it all said it took some getting used to and a change in the use of skills such as Stealth and Surveil but I really think you could do with relaxing a little and accept that STR/WIS is working for some people (though clearly not yourself).

Siclone · 07-06-2007, 11:38 AM

Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Thats funny Silicone because a growing number of people have now moved to STR/WIS and 'tried it personally' and found the damage is comparable to STR/INT Those that have managed it all said it took some getting used to and a change in the use of skills such as Stealth and Surveil but I really think you could do with relaxing a little and accept that STR/WIS is working for some people (though clearly not yourself).

yeah thats cool that wis is working for some of ya. I just think when someone posts that wis is making their decap crit all the time and he goes from 1k to good numbers.....what ever that is???,,,,,,cause they remember to hit the stealth a wooping 8 percent for the following CA That should be called out and questioned. I think someone posted here already, unless someone posts some parses that went wis, I not sure how serious most will take it.

kiaotokan · 07-06-2007, 01:36 PM

sin, though i have one question, when you go to rep and getaway, wont you loss some of that dps from the bleed line? i mean like the 20% extra damage to dots etc. I really dont know what the wis line will do to your dps but i mean its seems like you really need a crit to help improve your dps to that of str and int line. Is anyone parsing over 4k on non-ae epics? I have heard some assassin are, i just have no idea how they doing it.

I know I try and do alot of stealth attack during the course of the fight. I go around several of them so I can see the 8% addding up. It might keep up with the dps of str int line but do you think loosing benefits from poisons like stealing power or health along with adornements procs and bonuses to some of our ca's still worth it?

I dont know what your parsing, my best parse is 2300. I have seen swashy do 3900ish. I am new asssassin ofcource and still have alot to master and my gear is good not great. However, I am told assassin can do better than swashy on parse. So i belive its more than just my master and my gear.

I really dont know if the rep or getaway is gonnna improve my dps alot. when i orginally tried them out I was dissapointed in both my dps with them. The bleed lines seem to have better results. However I really didnt do alot of testing cause I thought repetive worked differently. Personally I like to go to the wisdom line. I think the benefit of smoke bomb and a deagro attack sounds very cool.

Are you consistently getting these high parser now or is it your getting couple crits here and there. My crits % right now is 19% melee. that to me means 1/5 ish attacks with my hidden attacks are gonna crit.

if i do the number 8% =.o8, so say i hit for 10k x.08 = 800 extra damage. mostly less cause only hits the high for decap and maybe killing blades and if your lucky finishing blow. However it will go often on your hidden cas though. some real good aprox dps numbers will be helpful here before i make my final decision on what to do. were you doing 3k dpish and when you transfered over your still doing 3kish normally? or its a spurt thing? really looking for your advice here i cant aford to keep respecting SMILEY . later and really thanks for you time and information.

Siclone · 07-06-2007, 02:33 PM

kiaotokan wrote:

sin, though i have one question, when you go to rep and getaway, wont you loss some of that dps from the bleed line? i mean like the 20% extra damage to dots etc. I really dont know what the wis line will do to your dps but i mean its seems like you really need a crit to help improve your dps to that of str and int line. Is anyone parsing over 4k on non-ae epics? I have heard some assassin are, i just have no idea how they doing it.
I know I try and do alot of stealth attack during the course of the fight. I go around several of them so I can see the 8% addding up. It might keep up with the dps of str int line but do you think loosing benefits from poisons like stealing power or health along with adornements procs and bonuses to some of our ca's still worth it?
I dont know what your parsing, my best parse is 2300. I have seen swashy do 3900ish. I am new asssassin ofcource and still have alot to master and my gear is good not great. However, I am told assassin can do better than swashy on parse. So i belive its more than just my master and my gear.
I really dont know if the rep or getaway is gonnna improve my dps alot. when i orginally tried them out I was dissapointed in both my dps with them. The bleed lines seem to have better results. However I really didnt do alot of testing cause I thought repetive worked differently. Personally I like to go to the wisdom line. I think the benefit of smoke bomb and a deagro attack sounds very cool.
Are you consistently getting these high parser now or is it your getting couple crits here and there. My crits % right now is 19% melee. that to me means 1/5 ish attacks with my hidden attacks are gonna crit.
if i do the number 8% =.o8, so say i hit for 10k x.08 = 800 extra damage. mostly less cause only hits the high for decap and maybe killing blades and if your lucky finishing blow. However it will go often on your hidden cas though. some real good aprox dps numbers will be helpful here before i make my final decision on what to do. were you doing 3k dpish and when you transfered over your still doing 3kish normally? or its a spurt thing? really looking for your advice here i cant aford to keep respecting . later and really thanks for you time and information.

allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line...its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,,

The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth.

none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest.

to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not

though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was.

CyriexVTZ · 07-06-2007, 03:04 PM

DUPLICATE POST sorry

CyriexVTZ · 07-06-2007, 03:05 PM

and now for what you've all been waiting for..some solid Zonewide Parses (Sorry about the bad job with the column headings, terrible with photoshop) Lyceum (first night with the STR/WIS line)

Mistmoore's Inner Sanctum

Clockwork Menace Factory

Labs

As you can clearly see, top of 3 and a respectable value of the one that got away (in my defence, I was made to tank the Tacticians Armour) And in Labs I was poorly buffed and half asleep, still think I did well enough SMILEY

So there you have it, some solid STR/WIS parses, Happy now?

kiaotokan · 07-06-2007, 03:51 PM

allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line...

That is incorrect statement- scraping blow, just one of the damage bonuses from the bleed line, you get increase overtime 35% dmg bonus. this does not dissapear you dots do more damage. I have tested this and seen it and shows on act damage output. the bleed at the end of the line where you are correctly stating is hp reducer that will go back as you say if you take the essive bleeding ability will bounce the mobs hitpoints based on what type of mob this is. that part your correct in. there is 4 abilities you can and will improve your dps in within the bleed line. excessive bleeding is what your talking about that has additional side affect of bleeding the mobs which end up really doing nothing to epics.

its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,,

again that only applies to excessive bleeding the end line of the bleed line. your are correct in that it doesnt work that well mainly on epics. most heroics and such you can get them to die before the bleed effect wears off and getting additional damage from it showing on the parser as excesive bleeding.

The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. Yes, but with epic fights you gonnna cast that more than once. its gonna add up little although i agree not enough to give up int line for.

none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest.

ok SMILEY

to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not

i agree here with you on this point. i dont think it does. i think though they getting multiple 8 percents. you well know we cast more than one or two surv and or stealth in fight especially when those timers are reduced inless they real short fights.

though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was.

i know that their are assassin with str int line who can reach over 4k dps so inless wisdom line can do that i am not even gonna bother with it.

kiaotokan · 07-06-2007, 04:30 PM

thanks Cyriex. . looks like your parsing fine with wis str line. thanks for the info its helpful.

Jayad · 07-06-2007, 04:36 PM

It's good to experiment, so let's be open to the people trying new stuff out.

Vydar · 07-06-2007, 04:40 PM

kiaotokan wrote:

allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line...
That is incorrect statement- scraping blow, just one of the damage bonuses from the bleed line, you get increase overtime 35% dmg bonus. this does not dissapear you dots do more damage. I have tested this and seen it and shows on act damage output. the bleed at the end of the line where you are correctly stating is hp reducer that will go back as you say if you take the essive bleeding ability will bounce the mobs hitpoints based on what type of mob this is. that part your correct in. there is 4 abilities you can and will improve your dps in within the bleed line. excessive bleeding is what your talking about that has additional side affect of bleeding the mobs which end up really doing nothing to epics.
its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,,
again that only applies to excessive bleeding the end line of the bleed line. your are correct in that it doesnt work that well mainly on epics. most heroics and such you can get them to die before the bleed effect wears off and getting additional damage from it showing on the parser as excesive bleeding.
The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. Yes, but with epic fights you gonnna cast that more than once. its gonna add up little although i agree not enough to give up int line for.
none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest.
ok
to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not
i agree here with you on this point. i dont think it does. i think though they getting multiple 8 percents. you well know we cast more than one or two surv and or stealth in fight especially when those timers are reduced inless they real short fights.
though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was.
i know that their are assassin with str int line who can reach over 4k dps so inless wisdom line can do that i am not even gonna bother with it.

Not true on the bleed line. Each bleed drops 1% off an epic. Pop all 5 bleeds, that's 5%. That's significant seeing as you did this by popping attacks you would have done anyway. Unless the mob is a self-healing one, the % deducted, even though the Max HP goes back, stays off. Example. 100%-5% max HP= 95% When that 5% goes away, Max HP is back to 100%, but with only 95% of it filled. An extra 5% on an epic is big. Now stack it with another assassin?

-=Hoss=- · 07-07-2007, 02:31 AM

I'm still a little confused on why everyone is assuming str/wis is the better build to test and not int/wis. I mean, when it comes to crit chances, our CAs are treated like spells, are they not? So it seems like everyone is willing to give up a great crit chance for 70% of our damage to keep a lesser crit chance for 30% of it. -h

t0gar · 07-07-2007, 03:11 AM

-=Hoss=- wrote:

I mean, when it comes to crit chances, our CAs are treated like spells, are they not?

Actually, our CA's are considered melee with the exception of malignant mark.

Computer MAn · 07-07-2007, 12:04 PM

What kind of proc gear are the str/wis people using? I know I have quite a few procs so losing the crits on them is a big deal. Possibly the people that are noticing str/wis being comparable are the people with not a lot of proc gear?

-Arctura- · 07-08-2007, 02:02 AM

(( Its my understanding that 8% more damage makes your CAs higher damage values, so they hit harder Crits are based off the regular damage, its roughly 2x more. So if your attack is doing 8% more, then your crit will be substantially larger also. Eg. pretend decap m1 says 9000-15000 dmg (when you hover over it) do the 8% sstealth, now it says 9720-16200 so roughly, it will crit for 9720 x2 - 16200 x2 so about 19440 to 32400 (these are just the values, this does not interpret mitigation, strength of your player, etc etc.

CyriexVTZ · 07-09-2007, 06:54 AM

You're absolutely right Arctura, while your maths are a little off (Crits are a little more complicated than just 2x more), the maths behind Crits take your max damage then add a bonus, so, an 8% higher max hit, will lead to significantly higher crits. Cochy, I posted my Proccing gear earlier on in the thread, in response to your first question on this topic. For completeness, here it is again: *Bladed Fury from Zek Cloak *Mystic Pith's on both weapons (Both of which are due to be replaced by +5 piercing adornments for better accuracy vs EoF raid mobs as soon as I have the cash) *Poisons *and then whatever my very variable group makeup gives me. -PARSE WATCH- I've been on 2 raids since I posted those parses in this thread MMIS - managed to redeem myself and get #1 on the parse this time. extDPS value was higher than my last post, died a few less times though. Deathtoll - #1 on the zonewide, but ignoring extDPS and looking at DPS, I only had a razor thin lead over a superbly played and well buffed swashy - However, the swashy died 5 or 6 times (hence their much lower extDPS), while I died none SMILEY

WIS is doing wonders for my survivability

Jayad · 07-09-2007, 03:53 PM

Huh? An 8% straight increase to a CA with a crit will lead to an 8% higher crit. The max dmg is only going up 8% so a crit would not increase more than this. Crits work as following: ( min max ) * 1.3 OR ( max + 1 ) if roll *1.3 is < max if both min and max are increased by 8%, how could you result in a larger gain than 8%?!

CyriexVTZ · 07-09-2007, 04:09 PM

Jayad..how do you explain a 35k decapitate crit using that formula?

t0gar · 07-09-2007, 04:30 PM

debuffs ftw!

Jayad · 07-09-2007, 05:46 PM

A lot of STR, master decap, and a crapload of debuffs (including dispatch) 8% of 35k is about 2800 btw. I have decapped in the 33k range so if you add 8% to that..

whytakemine · 07-09-2007, 05:54 PM

Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Jayad..how do you explain a 35k decapitate crit using that formula?

I hit a 31k decap last night in EH, and that was with just over 700 STR and no brigand. Give me a bit more str or dispatch and I bet it could have been 32-33k, which is all you'd need to get a 35k decap with the 8% bonus.

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

Vydar · 07-10-2007, 03:12 AM

whytakemine wrote:

Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote:
Jayad..how do you explain a 35k decapitate crit using that formula?
I hit a 31k decap last night in EH, and that was with just over 700 STR and no brigand. Give me a bit more str or dispatch and I bet it could have been 32-33k, which is all you'd need to get a 35k decap with the 8% bonus.
It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

My hardest decap so far was 32,700.

Zemial · 07-11-2007, 06:56 AM

About Smoke Bomb ... do raid loose their targets as well and so raid MT loose aggro on mob ... mobs too? Cyriex have you been testing Smoke Bomb in raid encounters ... how does it affect RAID ... do MT loose its aggro and what happens if raid continued to do damage on mob their primarly targetted?

CyriexVTZ · 07-11-2007, 11:10 AM

Smoke Bomb only effects the MOBS, not the people targeting the MOBS So, every mob it hits suddenly doesn't target anyone, but the raid can carry on wailing away as before. The MT doesn't loose his aggro, so if the mobs were on him before the target wipe, they'll be on him again strait after, assuming no one else gained aggro during the 4seconds of the mobs targeting being locked. Its possible, during those 4 seconds, that someone could gain aggro and wouldn't know until the 4 seconds is up, but that hasn't happened for us yet - I added a /tell to my macro so our MT knows when I'm smoke bombing and he's been treating it as a free few seconds to get some extra taunts in without having to worry about his health.

Jayad · 07-11-2007, 04:17 PM

It's just like Fitzpizzle where you lose your target except they can't re-target for the period. I haven't tried it out yet but I think it's a pretty powerful ability, sort of like an epic stun basically. I can imagine a lot of uses for it. I might try it out just for fun, but I really think I'll lose some dps from the switch.

Siclone · 07-11-2007, 04:27 PM

kiaotokan wrote:

allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line...
That is incorrect statement- scraping blow, just one of the damage bonuses from the bleed line, you get increase overtime 35% dmg bonus. this does not dissapear you dots do more damage. I have tested this and seen it and shows on act damage output. the bleed at the end of the line where you are correctly stating is hp reducer that will go back as you say if you take the essive bleeding ability will bounce the mobs hitpoints based on what type of mob this is. that part your correct in. there is 4 abilities you can and will improve your dps in within the bleed line. excessive bleeding is what your talking about that has additional side affect of bleeding the mobs which end up really doing nothing to epics.
its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,,
again that only applies to excessive bleeding the end line of the bleed line. your are correct in that it doesnt work that well mainly on epics. most heroics and such you can get them to die before the bleed effect wears off and getting additional damage from it showing on the parser as excesive bleeding.
The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. Yes, but with epic fights you gonnna cast that more than once. its gonna add up little although i agree not enough to give up int line for.
none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest.
ok
to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not
i agree here with you on this point. i dont think it does. i think though they getting multiple 8 percents. you well know we cast more than one or two surv and or stealth in fight especially when those timers are reduced inless they real short fights.
though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was.
i know that their are assassin with str int line who can reach over 4k dps so inless wisdom line can do that i am not even gonna bother with it.

I have not been around to watch this thread its a good one, but yea you gain dps from the bleed line, What I ment was it wont show on the parse,,,,you wont gain on the parse,,,,and that was what he and everyone is concerned with. as far as the math for crits,,,,yeah thats a bit funny math,,,just add 8 percent damage,,,so if you did 10k you would do 10.8k. If you had a crit and went for 20 k you would do 21.6k. I dont think its any more complex then that those are good parses with the wis line, congrats on that. It seems to work for you, did your parse with the int line the same? or did you give something up for the smoke bomb. Thats really what we are talking about, here,,,giving up int line for smoke bomb

Kaediin · 07-12-2007, 05:40 PM

Siclone wrote:

I have not been around to watch this thread its a good one, but yea you gain dps from the bleed line, What I ment was it wont show on the parse,,,,you wont gain on the parse,,,,and that was what he and everyone is concerned with.

This isnt technically correct. Your right that you wont get a parse DPS increase from the end skill of the bleeding line but you will from the other ones (except the proc chance on mark). The other skills increase the damage that our main quick reuse dot attacks do, therefore if you do moe damage you will increase in DPS.

07-06-2007, 10:15 AM	#33
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	kiaotokan wrote: some intersting information to continue on with. I use to have the str/ int aa line. I figure I try out the str/sta line. I watch the crit parsing and I noticed that agonizing pain would crit around 1k and flood my screen when I use to be str/int. When I moved to the str/stamina line, I noticed that agonizing rarely crits now and when it hits it only does about 500ish per trigger. thus I always try to hit frontload before I hit malignat mark just to up the trigger of agonizing pain. which I belive grants 10 triggers of the spell and 2 triggers to cast. I have to check into that more. In my thinking which could be incorrect. without spell criticals your giving up crit chances for weapon spell procs, malignant mark crit procs, poison procs (hemo). I personally wouldnt recommend anyone going down the stamina line. I think you loose to much. For the wisdom you do gain less hate and more stealth attack damage with one more addititonal stun that odly enough even affects epics. well we wanted more utility. one other point is that I am not convinced frontload and bleed are the way to go anymore. I think i am gonna try out repeated stabbing and getaway. Just use getaway as means of one more stealth because that all its really good at. I was really upset when i found out it that the ae avoidance goes away when we attack. I immediately felt it was stupid and got rid of it. I dont parse 4k though on epics like i hear some assasin do. I am also new lvl 70 assasin who just got his claymore sword. Think i give the wisdom line shot when I can and see where it goes. thanks for the info. I really am trying to min max my char but man is it confusing. I think most relalize you will lose dps with sta/str for some of the reason you say. I have getaway and RS. In my view they are the best. RS makes game play more fun for spaming. Getaway adds a little utility with another in combat stealth and the option to have an ae avoid.

07-06-2007, 10:27 AM	#34
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	Tolwynn wrote: I re-spec'd to the STR/Wis lines last nite. Our guild hit Lyceum, nice place to test raid wise how well this will work. At first I was miffed, my dps was barely 1k. Then I remembered reading from others how you have to change the way you use your stealths and CA's. BINGO! My DPS went back up to where it always has been. It does take a bit of time and practice to figure out how to change your play, but after you do, the line is well worth it. Decap rarely hit for less than 20k(most were 20-26) and we did not even have a brig on the raid for debuffs. Smokebomb is a life saver! Tank starts getting low on health and pummeled to death, Smoke the mobs to give the healers that xtra second to heal the tank back up. It also gives your mezzers a chance to re-mez anything they need to as well. Wis line has nothing to do with your CA critting. The fact that you are saying wis caused your decap to hit for over 20 k each time, leads me to think that you really don't have a good crasp on what is going on. so you went from 1 k,,,,,til you hit your stealth attacks all 2 of them, that had 8 percnet damage to each, and that alone added what 800 dps? if your decap normally hit for 10 k, it would do 10.8k Thats hardly a huge number or difference. I tried this personaly so I know that no way does Wis line have the same dps as Int line. smoke bomb is cool though.

07-06-2007, 10:34 AM	#35
CyriexVTZ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94	Thats funny Silicone because a growing number of people have now moved to STR/WIS and 'tried it personally' and found the damage is comparable to STR/INT Those that have managed it all said it took some getting used to and a change in the use of skills such as Stealth and Surveil but I really think you could do with relaxing a little and accept that STR/WIS is working for some people (though clearly not yourself). __________________

07-06-2007, 11:38 AM	#36
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote: Thats funny Silicone because a growing number of people have now moved to STR/WIS and 'tried it personally' and found the damage is comparable to STR/INT Those that have managed it all said it took some getting used to and a change in the use of skills such as Stealth and Surveil but I really think you could do with relaxing a little and accept that STR/WIS is working for some people (though clearly not yourself). yeah thats cool that wis is working for some of ya. I just think when someone posts that wis is making their decap crit all the time and he goes from 1k to good numbers.....what ever that is???,,,,,,cause they remember to hit the stealth a wooping 8 percent for the following CA That should be called out and questioned. I think someone posted here already, unless someone posts some parses that went wis, I not sure how serious most will take it.

07-06-2007, 01:36 PM	#37
kiaotokan Lord Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	sin, though i have one question, when you go to rep and getaway, wont you loss some of that dps from the bleed line? i mean like the 20% extra damage to dots etc. I really dont know what the wis line will do to your dps but i mean its seems like you really need a crit to help improve your dps to that of str and int line. Is anyone parsing over 4k on non-ae epics? I have heard some assassin are, i just have no idea how they doing it. I know I try and do alot of stealth attack during the course of the fight. I go around several of them so I can see the 8% addding up. It might keep up with the dps of str int line but do you think loosing benefits from poisons like stealing power or health along with adornements procs and bonuses to some of our ca's still worth it? I dont know what your parsing, my best parse is 2300. I have seen swashy do 3900ish. I am new asssassin ofcource and still have alot to master and my gear is good not great. However, I am told assassin can do better than swashy on parse. So i belive its more than just my master and my gear. I really dont know if the rep or getaway is gonnna improve my dps alot. when i orginally tried them out I was dissapointed in both my dps with them. The bleed lines seem to have better results. However I really didnt do alot of testing cause I thought repetive worked differently. Personally I like to go to the wisdom line. I think the benefit of smoke bomb and a deagro attack sounds very cool. Are you consistently getting these high parser now or is it your getting couple crits here and there. My crits % right now is 19% melee. that to me means 1/5 ish attacks with my hidden attacks are gonna crit. if i do the number 8% =.o8, so say i hit for 10k x.08 = 800 extra damage. mostly less cause only hits the high for decap and maybe killing blades and if your lucky finishing blow. However it will go often on your hidden cas though. some real good aprox dps numbers will be helpful here before i make my final decision on what to do. were you doing 3k dpish and when you transfered over your still doing 3kish normally? or its a spurt thing? really looking for your advice here i cant aford to keep respecting . later and really thanks for you time and information.

07-06-2007, 06:59 AM	#31
kiaotokan Lord Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	some intersting information to continue on with. I use to have the str/ int aa line. I figure I try out the str/sta line. I watch the crit parsing and I noticed that agonizing pain would crit around 1k and flood my screen when I use to be str/int. When I moved to the str/stamina line, I noticed that agonizing rarely crits now and when it hits it only does about 500ish per trigger. thus I always try to hit frontload before I hit malignat mark just to up the trigger of agonizing pain. which I belive grants 10 triggers of the spell and 2 triggers to cast. I have to check into that more. In my thinking which could be incorrect. without spell criticals your giving up crit chances for weapon spell procs, malignant mark crit procs, poison procs (hemo). I personally wouldnt recommend anyone going down the stamina line. I think you loose to much. For the wisdom you do gain less hate and more stealth attack damage with one more addititonal stun that odly enough even affects epics. well we wanted more utility. one other point is that I am not convinced frontload and bleed are the way to go anymore. I think i am gonna try out repeated stabbing and getaway. Just use getaway as means of one more stealth because that all its really good at. I was really upset when i found out it that the ae avoidance goes away when we attack. I immediately felt it was stupid and got rid of it. I dont parse 4k though on epics like i hear some assasin do. I am also new lvl 70 assasin who just got his claymore sword. Think i give the wisdom line shot when I can and see where it goes. thanks for the info. I really am trying to min max my char but man is it confusing.

07-06-2007, 08:28 AM	#32
Tolwynn Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 15	I re-spec'd to the STR/Wis lines last nite. Our guild hit Lyceum, nice place to test raid wise how well this will work. At first I was miffed, my dps was barely 1k. Then I remembered reading from others how you have to change the way you use your stealths and CA's. BINGO! My DPS went back up to where it always has been. It does take a bit of time and practice to figure out how to change your play, but after you do, the line is well worth it. Decap rarely hit for less than 20k(most were 20-26) and we did not even have a brig on the raid for debuffs. Smokebomb is a life saver! Tank starts getting low on health and pummeled to death, Smoke the mobs to give the healers that xtra second to heal the tank back up. It also gives your mezzers a chance to re-mez anything they need to as well.

07-06-2007, 02:33 PM	#38
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	kiaotokan wrote: sin, though i have one question, when you go to rep and getaway, wont you loss some of that dps from the bleed line? i mean like the 20% extra damage to dots etc. I really dont know what the wis line will do to your dps but i mean its seems like you really need a crit to help improve your dps to that of str and int line. Is anyone parsing over 4k on non-ae epics? I have heard some assassin are, i just have no idea how they doing it. I know I try and do alot of stealth attack during the course of the fight. I go around several of them so I can see the 8% addding up. It might keep up with the dps of str int line but do you think loosing benefits from poisons like stealing power or health along with adornements procs and bonuses to some of our ca's still worth it? I dont know what your parsing, my best parse is 2300. I have seen swashy do 3900ish. I am new asssassin ofcource and still have alot to master and my gear is good not great. However, I am told assassin can do better than swashy on parse. So i belive its more than just my master and my gear. I really dont know if the rep or getaway is gonnna improve my dps alot. when i orginally tried them out I was dissapointed in both my dps with them. The bleed lines seem to have better results. However I really didnt do alot of testing cause I thought repetive worked differently. Personally I like to go to the wisdom line. I think the benefit of smoke bomb and a deagro attack sounds very cool. Are you consistently getting these high parser now or is it your getting couple crits here and there. My crits % right now is 19% melee. that to me means 1/5 ish attacks with my hidden attacks are gonna crit. if i do the number 8% =.o8, so say i hit for 10k x.08 = 800 extra damage. mostly less cause only hits the high for decap and maybe killing blades and if your lucky finishing blow. However it will go often on your hidden cas though. some real good aprox dps numbers will be helpful here before i make my final decision on what to do. were you doing 3k dpish and when you transfered over your still doing 3kish normally? or its a spurt thing? really looking for your advice here i cant aford to keep respecting . later and really thanks for you time and information. allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line...its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,, The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest. to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was.

07-06-2007, 03:04 PM	#39
CyriexVTZ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94	DUPLICATE POST sorry __________________

07-06-2007, 03:05 PM	#40
CyriexVTZ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94	and now for what you've all been waiting for..some solid Zonewide Parses (Sorry about the bad job with the column headings, terrible with photoshop) Lyceum (first night with the STR/WIS line) Mistmoore's Inner Sanctum Clockwork Menace Factory Labs As you can clearly see, top of 3 and a respectable value of the one that got away (in my defence, I was made to tank the Tacticians Armour) And in Labs I was poorly buffed and half asleep, still think I did well enough So there you have it, some solid STR/WIS parses, Happy now? __________________

07-06-2007, 03:51 PM	#41
kiaotokan Lord Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line... That is incorrect statement- scraping blow, just one of the damage bonuses from the bleed line, you get increase overtime 35% dmg bonus. this does not dissapear you dots do more damage. I have tested this and seen it and shows on act damage output. the bleed at the end of the line where you are correctly stating is hp reducer that will go back as you say if you take the essive bleeding ability will bounce the mobs hitpoints based on what type of mob this is. that part your correct in. there is 4 abilities you can and will improve your dps in within the bleed line. excessive bleeding is what your talking about that has additional side affect of bleeding the mobs which end up really doing nothing to epics. its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,, again that only applies to excessive bleeding the end line of the bleed line. your are correct in that it doesnt work that well mainly on epics. most heroics and such you can get them to die before the bleed effect wears off and getting additional damage from it showing on the parser as excesive bleeding. The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. Yes, but with epic fights you gonnna cast that more than once. its gonna add up little although i agree not enough to give up int line for. none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest. ok to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not i agree here with you on this point. i dont think it does. i think though they getting multiple 8 percents. you well know we cast more than one or two surv and or stealth in fight especially when those timers are reduced inless they real short fights. though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was. i know that their are assassin with str int line who can reach over 4k dps so inless wisdom line can do that i am not even gonna bother with it.

07-06-2007, 04:30 PM	#42
kiaotokan Lord Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	thanks Cyriex. . looks like your parsing fine with wis str line. thanks for the info its helpful.

07-06-2007, 04:36 PM	#43
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	It's good to experiment, so let's be open to the people trying new stuff out.

07-06-2007, 04:40 PM	#44
Vydar Server: Vox Guild: Crimson Rank: Leader Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 362	kiaotokan wrote: allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line... That is incorrect statement- scraping blow, just one of the damage bonuses from the bleed line, you get increase overtime 35% dmg bonus. this does not dissapear you dots do more damage. I have tested this and seen it and shows on act damage output. the bleed at the end of the line where you are correctly stating is hp reducer that will go back as you say if you take the essive bleeding ability will bounce the mobs hitpoints based on what type of mob this is. that part your correct in. there is 4 abilities you can and will improve your dps in within the bleed line. excessive bleeding is what your talking about that has additional side affect of bleeding the mobs which end up really doing nothing to epics. its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,, again that only applies to excessive bleeding the end line of the bleed line. your are correct in that it doesnt work that well mainly on epics. most heroics and such you can get them to die before the bleed effect wears off and getting additional damage from it showing on the parser as excesive bleeding. The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. Yes, but with epic fights you gonnna cast that more than once. its gonna add up little although i agree not enough to give up int line for. none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest. ok to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not i agree here with you on this point. i dont think it does. i think though they getting multiple 8 percents. you well know we cast more than one or two surv and or stealth in fight especially when those timers are reduced inless they real short fights. though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was. i know that their are assassin with str int line who can reach over 4k dps so inless wisdom line can do that i am not even gonna bother with it. Not true on the bleed line. Each bleed drops 1% off an epic. Pop all 5 bleeds, that's 5%. That's significant seeing as you did this by popping attacks you would have done anyway. Unless the mob is a self-healing one, the % deducted, even though the Max HP goes back, stays off. Example. 100%-5% max HP= 95% When that 5% goes away, Max HP is back to 100%, but with only 95% of it filled. An extra 5% on an epic is big. Now stack it with another assassin?

07-07-2007, 02:31 AM	#45
-=Hoss=- Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 402	I'm still a little confused on why everyone is assuming str/wis is the better build to test and not int/wis. I mean, when it comes to crit chances, our CAs are treated like spells, are they not? So it seems like everyone is willing to give up a great crit chance for 70% of our damage to keep a lesser crit chance for 30% of it. -h

07-07-2007, 03:11 AM	#46
t0gar Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 92	-=Hoss=- wrote: I mean, when it comes to crit chances, our CAs are treated like spells, are they not? Actually, our CA's are considered melee with the exception of malignant mark. __________________ ____________________ Resident of Kithicor. Pawkeo - 70 Assassin - 69 Tailor Jido - 70 Fury

07-07-2007, 12:04 PM	#47
Computer MAn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 258	What kind of proc gear are the str/wis people using? I know I have quite a few procs so losing the crits on them is a big deal. Possibly the people that are noticing str/wis being comparable are the people with not a lot of proc gear?

07-08-2007, 02:02 AM	#48
-Arctura- Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,589	(( Its my understanding that 8% more damage makes your CAs higher damage values, so they hit harder Crits are based off the regular damage, its roughly 2x more. So if your attack is doing 8% more, then your crit will be substantially larger also. Eg. pretend decap m1 says 9000-15000 dmg (when you hover over it) do the 8% sstealth, now it says 9720-16200 so roughly, it will crit for 9720 x2 - 16200 x2 so about 19440 to 32400 (these are just the values, this does not interpret mitigation, strength of your player, etc etc.

07-09-2007, 06:54 AM	#49
CyriexVTZ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94	You're absolutely right Arctura, while your maths are a little off (Crits are a little more complicated than just 2x more), the maths behind Crits take your max damage then add a bonus, so, an 8% higher max hit, will lead to significantly higher crits. Cochy, I posted my Proccing gear earlier on in the thread, in response to your first question on this topic. For completeness, here it is again: Bladed Fury from Zek Cloak Mystic Pith's on both weapons (Both of which are due to be replaced by +5 piercing adornments for better accuracy vs EoF raid mobs as soon as I have the cash) Poisons and then whatever my very variable group makeup gives me. -PARSE WATCH- I've been on 2 raids since I posted those parses in this thread MMIS - managed to redeem myself and get #1 on the parse this time. extDPS value was higher than my last post, died a few less times though. Deathtoll - #1 on the zonewide, but ignoring extDPS and looking at DPS, I only had a razor thin lead over a superbly played and well buffed swashy - However, the swashy died 5 or 6 times (hence their much lower extDPS), while I died none WIS is doing wonders for my survivability __________________

07-09-2007, 03:53 PM	#50
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	Huh? An 8% straight increase to a CA with a crit will lead to an 8% higher crit. The max dmg is only going up 8% so a crit would not increase more than this. Crits work as following: ( min max ) * 1.3 OR ( max + 1 ) if roll *1.3 is < max if both min and max are increased by 8%, how could you result in a larger gain than 8%?!

07-09-2007, 04:09 PM	#51
CyriexVTZ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94	Jayad..how do you explain a 35k decapitate crit using that formula? __________________

07-09-2007, 04:30 PM	#52
t0gar Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 92	debuffs ftw! __________________ ____________________ Resident of Kithicor. Pawkeo - 70 Assassin - 69 Tailor Jido - 70 Fury

07-09-2007, 05:46 PM	#53
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	A lot of STR, master decap, and a crapload of debuffs (including dispatch) 8% of 35k is about 2800 btw. I have decapped in the 33k range so if you add 8% to that..

07-09-2007, 05:54 PM	#54
whytakemine Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 170	Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote: Jayad..how do you explain a 35k decapitate crit using that formula? I hit a 31k decap last night in EH, and that was with just over 700 STR and no brigand. Give me a bit more str or dispatch and I bet it could have been 32-33k, which is all you'd need to get a 35k decap with the 8% bonus. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. __________________ - Carbajal (car' ba hal), 80 assassin ÂÂChitlin, 80 coercer

07-10-2007, 03:12 AM	#55
Vydar Server: Vox Guild: Crimson Rank: Leader Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 362	whytakemine wrote: Cyriex@Antonia Bayle wrote: Jayad..how do you explain a 35k decapitate crit using that formula? I hit a 31k decap last night in EH, and that was with just over 700 STR and no brigand. Give me a bit more str or dispatch and I bet it could have been 32-33k, which is all you'd need to get a 35k decap with the 8% bonus. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. My hardest decap so far was 32,700.

07-11-2007, 06:56 AM	#56
Zemial Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4	About Smoke Bomb ... do raid loose their targets as well and so raid MT loose aggro on mob ... mobs too? Cyriex have you been testing Smoke Bomb in raid encounters ... how does it affect RAID ... do MT loose its aggro and what happens if raid continued to do damage on mob their primarly targetted?

07-11-2007, 11:10 AM	#57
CyriexVTZ Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94	Smoke Bomb only effects the MOBS, not the people targeting the MOBS So, every mob it hits suddenly doesn't target anyone, but the raid can carry on wailing away as before. The MT doesn't loose his aggro, so if the mobs were on him before the target wipe, they'll be on him again strait after, assuming no one else gained aggro during the 4seconds of the mobs targeting being locked. Its possible, during those 4 seconds, that someone could gain aggro and wouldn't know until the 4 seconds is up, but that hasn't happened for us yet - I added a /tell to my macro so our MT knows when I'm smoke bombing and he's been treating it as a free few seconds to get some extra taunts in without having to worry about his health. __________________

07-11-2007, 04:17 PM	#58
Jayad Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Raelyn @ Permafrost Posts: 1,306	It's just like Fitzpizzle where you lose your target except they can't re-target for the period. I haven't tried it out yet but I think it's a pretty powerful ability, sort of like an epic stun basically. I can imagine a lot of uses for it. I might try it out just for fun, but I really think I'll lose some dps from the switch.

07-11-2007, 04:27 PM	#59
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	kiaotokan wrote: allot of points here, first off you dont gain any dps from the bleed line... That is incorrect statement- scraping blow, just one of the damage bonuses from the bleed line, you get increase overtime 35% dmg bonus. this does not dissapear you dots do more damage. I have tested this and seen it and shows on act damage output. the bleed at the end of the line where you are correctly stating is hp reducer that will go back as you say if you take the essive bleeding ability will bounce the mobs hitpoints based on what type of mob this is. that part your correct in. there is 4 abilities you can and will improve your dps in within the bleed line. excessive bleeding is what your talking about that has additional side affect of bleeding the mobs which end up really doing nothing to epics. its a hit point de-buff. it dont show up on the parse...there is a complex post around here somewhere that details it. when the bleed wears they get the hp's back,,,more or less,,,,, again that only applies to excessive bleeding the end line of the bleed line. your are correct in that it doesnt work that well mainly on epics. most heroics and such you can get them to die before the bleed effect wears off and getting additional damage from it showing on the parser as excesive bleeding. The 8 percent you get from wis is only to the CA that follows Surviel and or stealth. Yes, but with epic fights you gonnna cast that more than once. its gonna add up little although i agree not enough to give up int line for. none of your EoF aa will improve your dps "allot", or much at all for that matter. Thats why I choice the two that makes game play easiest. ok to get wis line, you give up int, which is poison and mark crits and intoxiation. I just dont see how 8 percent more damage on the follow up CA would come close to making up for that,,,and in fact when I tried it, it did not i agree here with you on this point. i dont think it does. i think though they getting multiple 8 percents. you well know we cast more than one or two surv and or stealth in fight especially when those timers are reduced inless they real short fights. though some post here that it works for them, they are obviously in a different situation and I dont know why they are not loseing serious dps with wis,,,I sure was. i know that their are assassin with str int line who can reach over 4k dps so inless wisdom line can do that i am not even gonna bother with it. I have not been around to watch this thread its a good one, but yea you gain dps from the bleed line, What I ment was it wont show on the parse,,,,you wont gain on the parse,,,,and that was what he and everyone is concerned with. as far as the math for crits,,,,yeah thats a bit funny math,,,just add 8 percent damage,,,so if you did 10k you would do 10.8k. If you had a crit and went for 20 k you would do 21.6k. I dont think its any more complex then that those are good parses with the wis line, congrats on that. It seems to work for you, did your parse with the int line the same? or did you give something up for the smoke bomb. Thats really what we are talking about, here,,,giving up int line for smoke bomb

07-12-2007, 05:40 PM	#60
Kaediin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 58	Siclone wrote: I have not been around to watch this thread its a good one, but yea you gain dps from the bleed line, What I ment was it wont show on the parse,,,,you wont gain on the parse,,,,and that was what he and everyone is concerned with. This isnt technically correct. Your right that you wont get a parse DPS increase from the end skill of the bleeding line but you will from the other ones (except the proc chance on mark). The other skills increase the damage that our main quick reuse dot attacks do, therefore if you do moe damage you will increase in DPS.