Troubador DPS

[Mildavyn]

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is what happens when you take the damage from your spell procs off the mages in your group, and add it to your personal DPS. This post ignores such trivial matters as a brigand with dispatch, and how the numbers are based on the number of spells your group casts. The more non-casters in your group, the less DPS those procs add. Anyhow, don't reply saying "Yeah, but what about the who is making you look better by doing ". Because it doesnt matter. That person would still be doing that if I wasn't there and the changes would be almost un-noticeable.

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is for all the nay-sayers who say troubs' DPS is too low. From Freethinkers, one of the groups of 3 vampires (yellow con, think it was lvl 73). Was running Dove song, Raxxyls, Bria's, Alin's, Aria. AA spec: AGI/INT (Yup thats right, no DKtM or Allegro to help the mages in this fight, Dove song was boosted to 46/93 though)

Troubador 862 DPS.

Necromancer (Mage pet) 2184 DPS. 25% from my procs =  < 1638 DPS without me. +546 DPS

Illusionist (No pet) 2508 DPS. 20% from my procs = < 2007 DPS without me +501 DPS

Warlock 3160 DPS. 12% from my procs = < 2781 DPS without me +379 DPS

Fury 915 DPS. 21% from my procs = < 723 DPS without me +192 DPS

Conjuror (Mage pet) 3463 DPS. 20% from my procs = < 2771 DPS without me +692 DPS

Total added from Troubador procs: 2310 DPS. Add personal DPS (ignoring the <3% from other people's procs on me) = 3172 DPS. (Using this as my DPS number, I was 1st on the parse. Not bad for someone in mostly EoF legendary, with a few KoS jewelery peices.)

3172 DPS added by putting a troubador in that group. 2310 is the damage added from my procs alone. That's not including the extra damage done by debuffing the mobs' resists. Also not showing that I had jester's cap on one of those mages all fight (Conj, then Necro). Thats also not taking into account that without Alin's, every mage in that group would have wiped from pulling agro.

[Spider]

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is what happens when you take the damage from your spell procs off the mages in your group, and add it to your personal DPS. This post ignores such trivial matters as a brigand with dispatch, and how the numbers are based on the number of spells your group casts. The more non-casters in your group, the less DPS those procs add. Anyhow, don't reply saying "Yeah, but what about the who is making you look better by doing ". Because it doesnt matter. That person would still be doing that if I wasn't there and the changes would be almost un-noticeable.

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is for all the nay-sayers who say troubs' DPS is too low. From Freethinkers, one of the groups of 3 vampires (yellow con, think it was lvl 73). Was running Dove song, Raxxyls, Bria's, Alin's, Aria. AA spec: AGI/INT (Yup thats right, no DKtM or Allegro to help the mages in this fight, Dove song was boosted to 46/93 though)

Troubador 862 DPS.

Necromancer (Mage pet) 2184 DPS. 25% from my procs =  < 1638 DPS without me. +546 DPS

Illusionist (No pet) 2508 DPS. 20% from my procs = < 2007 DPS without me +501 DPS

Warlock 3160 DPS. 12% from my procs = < 2781 DPS without me +379 DPS

Fury 915 DPS. 21% from my procs = < 723 DPS without me +192 DPS

Conjuror (Mage pet) 3463 DPS. 20% from my procs = < 2771 DPS without me +692 DPS

Total added from Troubador procs: 2310 DPS. Add personal DPS (ignoring the <3% from other people's procs on me) = 3172 DPS. (Using this as my DPS number, I was 2nd on the parse. Not bad for someone in mostly EoF legendary, with a few KoS jewelery peices.)

3172 DPS added by putting a troubador in that group. 2310 is the damage added from my procs alone. That's not including the extra damage done by debuffing the mobs' resists. Also not showing that I had jester's cap on one of those mages all fight (Conj, then Necro). Thats also not taking into account that without Alin's, every mage in that group would have wiped from pulling agro.

/cheer

[missing_peace]

People are arguing that personal DPS is too low, not raid DPS.  Hasn't this already been covered?  Is anyone still trying to argue that bards are somehow unwanted in raids? No, they are not.

Players are more concerned with solo and group DPS.  That's where you spend 95% of your playtime.

[Mildavyn]

How is that not personal? Is it not generated by having my person in the group? People just want to see their name high on the parse. (Or want to be able to solo better)

[Life777form]

He's saying the only time you'll see that is in a raid.  Not everyone raids, and people who raid aren't always raiding.

[missing_peace]

Life777form wrote:

He's saying the only time you'll see that is in a raid.  Not everyone raids, and people who raid aren't always raiding.

Thank you.

[Mildavyn]

Life777form wrote:

He's saying the only time you'll see that is in a raid.  Not everyone raids, and people who raid aren't always raiding.

Thats true. You will also see increases like this is heroic groups though. Any mage in your group will get major boosts to damage just by being near you. The damage increase is caused by landing spells, it doesnt matter if the spell does 10 damage or 10 thousand. It still procs the same.

[missing_peace]

Are you seriously arguing against enhancing troubadours?  Do you seriously see no flaws?  Are you so disconnected form the average player that you cannot understand why the troubadour is the least played class in the game?

I would expect even an elite player to understand that the lack of troubadours at the end game is directly caused by the 70 levels of solo and small group play that one must go through first.

There are numerous issues with the class.  These issues have been outlined, discussed, argued over, chewed up, spat out and recycled more times than I can count.  Unfortunately, the same issues still exist today as they did over a year ago.  The average player can see the problems and they deam it not worth the trouble.  Why are there no troubadours but enough furies to fill a bottomless pit?  Because troubadours are weak and furies are not.

Raiding is a small portion of the game that most players will barely experience.  What the class needs are enhancements to solo and group play.

[Life777form]

Strangely I like how the troub is set up in raids, I can sit and get drunk and still contribute.  I would have to find something else for raids if i actually had to press buttons.

[Mildavyn]

The only place where troubs suck right now is in solo. We've all heard the complaints, we all know them by heart now. This wasnt trying to say that those complaints aren't valid. This is just saying "Hey, we're actually doing damned well in raiding." Yes, Troubs can be boring on raids if all you do is /follow /afk. Try actually playing the class on raids and you'll see that it's more fun.

Yes, raiding is only a small part of the game, but in full groups we're useful as well. It's only when you're doing easy zones and your group is so ubah that they'd be better with another DPS. There is no such thing as a group that isnt going to be made better by having a troubador.

Yes, we have problems, but we're not broke.

[Pogopuschel]

Grats Paikis on completely failing to see the point of each and every complaint on these subforums once more. I'm not gonna run through this again, since you brought the evidence yourself - the Troub is mostly a measly buff-bot. What did you have to do to make this group's dps shine? That's right, you had to be there and cast PotM on inc. Bravo. Yes, you did a good buff cycling there. Would the group still have shone without it? Of course it wo uld. Oh and I have to add one more, because your math is so obviously flawed that it makes my eyes bleed:

Add personal DPS (ignoring the <3% from other people's procs on me) = 3172 DPS. (Using this as my DPS number, I was 1st on the parse

Where in that comparison is what other classes bring to the group or the raid? Synergism. Illusory Arm. Time Compression (good luck on quantifying that one). Even more, you'll notice that your so-called "personal dps" will go down a lot if the classes in your group suck/idle. Is that good math, and if it is (which I highly doubt) is that a well-designed class?

[Galim]

I am missing something I think.  I have to admit I dont sit and study parses as much as I should, but I am sure that I have never hit anywhere near 40% of my dps in Precise Note.  Umm, am I being a bit thick? 

As for solo troub, I have no complaints.  I made a troub at a time when we had too many rangers (my original main is a ranger) and I knew we needed a troub.  I had an idea what being a troub was all about, and I loved it.  I loved soloing - I found it easy and satisfying, and I love grouping and raiding.  I cant see what all the complaints are about.  I think that everyone has a class they are most suited to.  For me its troub.  I have a ranger, fury, templar, warlock and pally also.  Ive played nearly all classes up to at least lvl 25 at one time or another, and troub is stil my favourite.

[Pogopuschel]

All our debuffs count as spells, so they have a chance to proc Aria and PotM (if you want to call 100% on PotM a chance ) so what you can do on group encounters is: - Fire up PoM - Fire Kian's - Fire Alin's Then we have 3 group debuffs with short recast timers: Zander, Processional, Discante. Possible o rder is: Upbeat: - Fire Zander Chorus: - Fire Processional - Cancel Zander - Fire Discante - Cancel Processional - Fire Zander - Cancel Discante Intermission: - Alin's Start with Upbeat, Repeat Chorus until PotM expires, do Intermission whenever Alin's is up . So what you do is you always cast one, then cancel another one that is already running (preferably the one you cast before the one you just cast). That way you have a smooth clicking order, and can pump out a lot of dps on group encounters . Too confusing? Say you have this on your hotbar: 1 = Processional 2 = Zander 3 = Discante So you do 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, ... Getting 2000 dps (procs only!!) on e.g. the ring event with the statues in Poet's Palace is definately possible . The more mobs there are in the encounter, the merrier.

[Lariu]

The Fury was slacking! Should be getting over 1.1k on FTH trash with that setup.

Troub dps is a great challenge. I've not been a troub for very long so I'm still learning and fine tuning, but it's fun to dps and to sort of orchestrate a group's dps. I take a certain amount of pride in helping my mages top the parse.

The problem I have is big groups of trash - ripe for potm and spamming greens - are dead just too damned fast for me to really take advantage! lol.

[Mildavyn]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:

Grats Paikis on completely failing to see the point of each and every complaint on these subforums once more. I'm not gonna run through this again, since you brought the evidence yourself - the Troub is mostly a measly buff-bot. What did you have to do to make this group's dps shine? That's right, you had to be there and cast PotM on inc. Bravo. Yes, you did a good buff cycling there. Would the group still have shone without it? Of course it wo uld. Oh and I have to add one more, because your math is so obviously flawed that it makes my eyes bleed:

Add personal DPS (ignoring the <3% from other people's procs on me) = 3172 DPS. (Using this as my DPS number, I was 1st on the parse

Where in that comparison is what other classes bring to the group or the raid? Synergism. Illusory Arm. Time Compression (good luck on quantifying that one). Even more, you'll notice that your so-called "personal dps" will go down a lot if the classes in your group suck/idle. Is that good math, and if it is (which I highly doubt) is that a well-designed class?

Grats on completely missing the point of the post, and completely not reading the big glowing DISCLAIMER at the top of the post

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is what happens when you take the damage from your spell procs off the mages in your group, and add it to your personal DPS. This post ignores such trivial matters as a brigand with dispatch, and how the numbers are based on the number of spells your group casts. The more non-casters in your group, the less DPS those procs add. Anyhow, don't reply saying "Yeah, but what about the who is making you look better by doing ". Because it doesnt matter. That person would still be doing that if I wasn't there and the changes would be almost un-noticeable.

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

Yes, a brigand with dispatch increases raid DPS significantly. Completely not the point. The reason (IMO) that there are so few Troubadors is because they come here and see so much complaining about how little our DPS is. Well guess what? Just taking the proc damage (I'm not even counting Jester's cap, allegro, DKtM, extra damage caused by debuffing resists etc) and adding it to my own personal damage, I topped the parse. If we want more people to play troubadors, then we need to stop complaining (although there are valid complaints) and show some of the GOOD side of the troubs. This was an attemt to show that the glory is rightfully ours, not those mages with their names at the top of the parse. Those names are only there because WE PUT THEM THERE.  

[Mildavyn]

Galimir wrote:

I am missing something I think.  I have to admit I dont sit and study parses as much as I should, but I am sure that I have never hit anywhere near 40% of my dps in Precise Note.  Umm, am I being a bit thick? 

That fight was almost entirely done while i had PotM active. Thats why my melee stuff was such a low %age. Actually if you include Dissonant note, 60% of my damage was from procs. An above poster explained how it happened. I would like to add though, that using mighty below is good, as it's insta-cast. Also, i usually put Zander's up before using alins and Kians on the first cycle.

[Galim]

Yes, I realized about an hour after posting about the PotM and fast casting debuff thing.  I think i read it a couple of months ago.  I have tried to do it myself, but havent had much luck in upping my dps that way.  I find that if im positioned correctly I can hit higher dps with PotM up just casting DD spells and meleeing.

I have mentioned in another post regarding dps.  Im going to play around with haste variations/CAs vs autoattack + Haste over a few raids and see if I can learn anything.

[Zeral498]

Paikis@Ven

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Yes, a brigand with dispatch increases raid DPS significantly. Completely not the point. The reason (IMO) that there are so few Troubadors is because they come here and see so much complaining about how little our DPS is. Well guess what? Just taking the proc damage (I'm not even counting Jester's cap, allegro, DKtM, extra damage caused by debuffing resists etc) and adding it to my own personal damage, I topped the parse. If we want more people to play troubadors, then we need to stop complaining (although there are valid complaints) and show some of the GOOD side of the troubs. This was an attemt to show that the glory is rightfully ours, not those mages with their names at the top of the parse. Those names are only there because WE PUT THEM THERE.  

Raiders are QUITE well aware that Troubadors help others deal massive DPS. There are so few Troubadors because all you have to do as a Troubador is click PoTM and you're basically done. In that fight of yours, let's say you didn't attack, at ALL. By your calculations you still would've dealt in the neighborhood of 2.3k DPS. While doing nothing. If you use all your spells/CA's, you deal another 800 DPS. Woopty doo. All that work and you only add 800. Or you can just click a button, go grab a drink, come back and know that you dealt 2.3k DPS. Now, when I raid, I DPS my heart out. And I'm sure every raider who plays a Troub as their main does the same. But the point is, is that we are without the doubt the most effective, passive class, ever created. Fire up our buffs, click PoTM, and done. Wonderful buff-bot, and amazing 2-box character. And that my friends, is the Troubador class in a nut shell. What's the difference between a good Troubador and bad Troubador on a raid? NOTHING, because you can't F*** up playing our class. Get the right buffs up, click PoTM and you're 85% done. In a group where the Troubador is the only crowd controller, you can tell a difference between a good/bad Troub. We need more active buffs, like JC/PoTM. We have a lot of rather useless to semi-useless buffs (Quiron, Requiem, Balletic, etc) that can be empowered into fun, MEANINGFUL, active buffs. Then, our class may be slightly more interesting to play. Bottom line: 1) Get rid of root/daze in PoTM for obvious reasons. 2) Give us a couple more active buffs to make the class have a more active role. 3) Give us poison to help us solo better and give us a slight boost in overall DPS. 4) Self-buff should not take conc slot for obvious reasons. 5) We want instruments for crying out loud.   If even TWO of those are done, we will be the happiest m-fookas in the game, hands down.

[Pogopuschel]

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is what happens when you take the damage from your spell procs off the mages in your group, and add it to your personal DPS. This post ignores such trivial matters as a brigand with dispatch, and how the numbers are based on the number of spells your group casts. The more non-casters in your group, the less DPS those procs add. Anyhow, don't reply saying "Yeah, but what about the who is making you look better by doing ". Because it doesnt matter. That person would still be doing that if I wasn't there and the changes would be almost un-noticeable.

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

Yes, a brigand with dispatch increases raid DPS significantly. Completely not the point. The reason (IMO) that there are so few Troubadors is because they come here and see so much complaining about how little our DPS is. Well guess what? Just taking the proc damage (I'm not even counting Jester's cap, allegro, DKtM, extra damage caused by debuffing resists etc) and adding it to my own personal damage, I topped the parse. If we want more people to play troubadors, then we need to stop complaining (although there are valid complaints) and show some of the GOOD side of the troubs. This was an attemt to show that the glory is rightfully ours, not those mages with their names at the top of the parse. Those names are only there because WE PUT THEM THERE. 

It is this very disclaimer that is wrong in the first place. You w ill not find a single posting on these forums in the past months that states that Troubadours have nothing to offer to a group or raid. It is the lack of an active role that people complain about to achieve what we can do! If you like being passive, go watch a movie. Have you never wondered why Troubs are so concerned with personal dps? Because there's nothing else to do once you figured out the best people to use JC on and when PotM suits you best. The perfect example is right there, again! The Brigand has to DO stuff to play the main part of his role, we don't.

[Dendro]

So by your calculations, troubs in a raid are not purely afk buffbots...rather they are only 2310/3172= 73% afk buffbot and 27% active dps. Oh, how reassuring! Thanks!!! Now I know all of our problems are solved! /sarcasm The fact that you spec AGI/INT means you are maximizing your solo melee dps rather than your contribution to the raid.  Therefore, if you specced to be a raiding troub (STR/WIS of course) you would actually be even more buffbot than you already are, all other things being equal. Why did you bother with Dove Song?  Even if you consider +skills useful due to the mobs being 3 levels above you, you had a warlock in your group who presumably already had up his group +casting skills buff...which is effectively free, since sorcerors in a mage group have little to spend their con points on. On a side note, I was in a pick-up raid not long ago (with my necro, not my troub), and I pointed out that the troub should be in the mage group...to which the clueless troub argued, "naw, dove song sucks"...grr...I couldn't give a ratonga's tail about dove song, I want raxxyl's and the sorcerors want alin's and we all want DKtM, bria's, aria, JC, and PotM.

[Spider]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is what happens when you take the damage from your spell procs off the mages in your group, and add it to your personal DPS. This post ignores such trivial matters as a brigand with dispatch, and how the numbers are based on the number of spells your group casts. The more non-casters in your group, the less DPS those procs add. Anyhow, don't reply saying "Yeah, but what about the who is making you look better by doing ". Because it doesnt matter. That person would still be doing that if I wasn't there and the changes would be almost un-noticeable.

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

Yes, a brigand with dispatch increases raid DPS significantly. Completely not the point. The reason (IMO) that there are so few Troubadors is because they come here and see so much complaining about how little our DPS is. Well guess what? Just taking the proc damage (I'm not even counting Jester's cap, allegro, DKtM, extra damage caused by debuffing resists etc) and adding it to my own personal damage, I topped the parse. If we want more people to play troubadors, then we need to stop complaining (although there are valid complaints) and show some of the GOOD side of the troubs. This was an attemt to show that the glory is rightfully ours, not those mages with their names at the top of the parse. Those names are only there because WE PUT THEM THERE. 

It is this very disclaimer that is wrong in the first place. You w ill not find a single posting on these forums in the past months that states that Troubadours have nothing to offer to a group or raid. It is the lack of an active role that people complain about to achieve what we can do! If you like being passive, go watch a movie. Have you never wondered why Troubs are so concerned with personal dps? Because there's nothing else to do once you figured out the best people to use JC on and when PotM suits you best. The perfect example is right there, again! The Brigand has to DO stuff to play the main part of his role, we don't.

yes a brig has to do stuff

like click di9spatch , cycle thtough ca's , hit evade , wash rinse repeat

i dont care what class you play on a raid its the same stuff over and over and over again unless your the tank or themt healer when the tanks getting realy smashed

[Rogotop]

the parse graphs you posted, were those zw, or 1 fight? please for the love of god tell me that 40% of your damage zone wide was not from PoTM. edit: disregard this post it was 1 encounter - reading skills am fundamental.

[darco]

missing_peace wrote:

Are you seriously arguing against enhancing troubadours?  Do you seriously see no flaws?  Are you so disconnected form the average player that you cannot understand why the troubadour is the least played class in the game?

I would expect even an elite player to understand that the lack of troubadours at the end game is directly caused by the 70 levels of solo and small group play that one must go through first.

There are numerous issues with the class.  These issues have been outlined, discussed, argued over, chewed up, spat out and recycled more times than I can count.  Unfortunately, the same issues still exist today as they did over a year ago.  The average player can see the problems and they deam it not worth the trouble.  Why are there no troubadours but enough furies to fill a bottomless pit?  Because troubadours are weak and furies are not.

Raiding is a small portion of the game that most players will barely experience.  What the class needs are enhancements to solo and group play.

Are peeps stupid or wht??? cant fokkin belive wht i read here! ofcourse Troubas need more dps any one saying otherwise are just fokkin stupid!!! IMO! i play on pvp server and IMO its the only way of playing otherwise i could play zelda.... ;P ........ U HAVE TO B ABLE TO SURVIVE IN SOLO PVP !! thats IT! to at least stand a decent chance seems soe forgott about ungimping the trouba!...but hell wht do i know im just a noob right??.....LMFAO!!thaught they where gonna even things out ...but ...well [Removed for Content] ...we forgot the trouba....hey nm they are so few anyways let em be and save some cash on reprogramming the class.....xD . I aint got nothing but love 4 u guys and i REALLY hope soe sort ur dps out! gl ! PEEEAAACEE!!

[Spider]

missing_peace wrote:

Are you seriously arguing against enhancing troubadours?  Do you seriously see no flaws?  Are you so disconnected form the average player that you cannot understand why the troubadour is the least played class in the game?

No one is arguing that we dont need enhancement . EVERY class could use enhancemetn in some way or another . but as for he least played class well tbh it has just as much to do with the attitude of posters on these boards as it does with anythgin else

I would expect even an elite player to understand that the lack of troubadours at the end game is directly caused by the 70 levels of solo and small group play that one must go through first.

The 70 levels of solo and group play are perfectly fine i had an infinatly easier time solo and small group leveling troubs than i ever did with my inquis , you just have to do a lot more than standing there  attacking the mob , learn the tricks to successfull soloing on a troub and parley then into group and raid situations as you can

There are numerous issues with the class.  These issues have been outlined, discussed, argued over, chewed up, spat out and recycled more times than I can count.  Unfortunately, the same issues still exist today as they did over a year ago.  The average player can see the problems and they deam it not worth the trouble.  Why are there no troubadours but enough furies to fill a bottomless pit?  Because troubadours are weak and furies are not.

furries are probaly one of the most balanced classes in teh game  ( although im sure if u ask one they will say they suck and have a million issues etc. so its all a matter of perspective) thats not to say we dotn have issues the buff and debuff scaling definatly needs work  the scaling of damage output on some of our spells and skills as well but at the same time were still very functional and effective w could smiply be a lto more so if things were fixed

Raiding is a small portion of the game that most players will barely experience.  What the class needs are enhancements to solo and group play.

Both raiding and pvp are minorites but 90 % of the complains about troubs tem from these 3 things  however as for group and solo play as ive stated b4  if you learn how to master the class in those aspects  its not nearly as difficult as you might think. most people on here power leveled here troubs for t7 raiding but ive had to play each level to the core  mostly solo , occasionaly duo or trio and ive been amazed and astounded at what the troub is capable of in the right situations . thats not to say were perfect or dont need work  but with a bit of practice and a bit of timing we can pull off some amazing stuff

[Zeral498]

You mention the 70 levels of solo and group play are perfectly fine yet your Troubador is only level 47. Now, I do agree with you in this case - we're okay in groups, and we're okay in soloing (although throwing us a bone would be nice), but let's not make claims without actually living through it okay?

[Pogopuschel]

Spider wrote:

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

This is what happens when you take the damage from your spell procs off the mages in your group, and add it to your personal DPS. This post ignores such trivial matters as a brigand with dispatch, and how the numbers are based on the number of spells your group casts. The more non-casters in your group, the less DPS those procs add. Anyhow, don't reply saying "Yeah, but what about the who is making you look better by doing ". Because it doesnt matter. That person would still be doing that if I wasn't there and the changes would be almost un-noticeable.

*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****

Yes, a brigand with dispatch increases raid DPS significantly. Completely not the point. The reason (IMO) that there are so few Troubadors is because they come here and see so much complaining about how little our DPS is. Well guess what? Just taking the proc damage (I'm not even counting Jester's cap, allegro, DKtM, extra damage caused by debuffing resists etc) and adding it to my own personal damage, I topped the parse. If we want more people to play troubadors, then we need to stop complaining (although there are valid complaints) and show some of the GOOD side of the troubs. This was an attemt to show that the glory is rightfully ours, not those mages with their names at the top of the parse. Those names are only there because WE PUT THEM THERE. 

It is this very disclaimer that is wrong in the first place. You w ill not find a single posting on these forums in the past months that states that Troubadours have nothing to offer to a group or raid. It is the lack of an active role that people complain about to achieve what we can do! If you like being passive, go watch a movie. Have you never wondered why Troubs are so concerned with personal dps? Because there's nothing else to do once you figured out the best people to use JC on and when PotM suits you best. The perfect example is right there, again! The Brigand has to DO stuff to play the main part of his role, we don't.

yes a brig has to do stuff

like click di9spatch , cycle thtough ca's , hit evade , wash rinse repeat

i dont care what class you play on a raid its the same stuff over and over and over again unless your the tank or themt healer when the tanks getting realy smashed

You didn't read correctly, or I put the emphasis wrong. What I meant to say is: Unless the Brigand (or many other classes) don't smash buttons like crazy, maintain their debuffs they will not be desired on a raid. When a Troubadour idles or is on auto-attack, people will go like "Yeah well, at least we get the buffs - good enough". While some may like that, I hate it with a passion. It's hard to be so crappy as a Troub to not be desired on a raid, believe me. Any other class does not have this luxury.

[RanmaBoyType]

You mention the 70 levels of solo and group play are perfectly fine yet your Troubador is only level 47. Now, I do agree with you in this case - we're okay in groups, and we're okay in soloing (although throwing us a bone would be nice), but let's not make claims without actually living through it okay?

i have a 70 troubador and had no issues with group play all the way through the ranks.

In all the posts i have read from people i still do not understand what it is exactly that the troubador community as a whole wants.  It seems you want better soloability, better personal raid DPS, and better interactivity during raiding.  But what does this really mean?  Do you want to go back to twisting songs like in eq1?  Do you want better personal DPS but then nerf what we offer to groups? (we know that no one can deny what we add to a raid group, so if we increase what we do personally, something has to take a hit.  what do you want to lose?)  Lets play lutes and mandolins, but then what? are we going to beat the mobs with them, or can we magically wield both a lute and 2 daggers, and play the lute while stabbing?  Do you want to drop the weapons and just play songs and pretend to be a mage?  I personally enjoy the melee side of my trouby as much as the caster side.

everyone wants to be better.  are we really "that" bad?  granted there are some things that could be tweaked and i agree perhaps some buffs and aa's really need to be looked at, i still agree that we are not as bad as everyone claims.

[Jeger_Wulf]

> EVERY class could use enhancemetn in some way or another . but as for he least played class well > tbh it has just as much to do with the attitude of posters on these boards as it does with anythgin > else

 I totally disagree. I have a 70 troub and have pretty much shelved him simply because he isn't as much fun as the other classes I play. The attitude on the boards is due to the state of the troubadour, not vice versa.

Frankly, I think the few optimists on this board that jump all over anyone who complains about the troub are driving away a lot of the old-timers who have moved onto different classes or different games, but who would otherwise still work for troubadour improvements.

> everyone wants to be better.  are we really "that" bad? 

How bad is "that" bad? If "that" bad means bad enough to be the least-played class in the game despite being highly desired in raids, then "Yes, we are 'that' bad."

[roces9]

First off, Spider should not get to comment about Troubador soloability at T7. My troub soloed just fine at level 47 too. Second, he should not get to post about kiting because..... he's 47 and doesn't have Lullaby. People really need to stop taking what he says about end game seriously. He has a good attitude and know the all the right things to say, but he doesn't raid, he doesn't run high end instances (Unrest, CoV, HoF) and he definately never couldn't solo a green ^ in this 60s (okay I had really bad gear, so what). Also, I don't know who said otherwise, but I think our role in small groups is just fine. Especially in zones with a lot of single ^^^ adds. Like in CoV with JC on (don't have full duration mez, only 3AAs atm) I can keep 2 different mobs locked down for a good long time. And if I have trouble with people breaking my mezzes, I can just charm it so they will know not to attack. PoTM and Jester's for when the stuff hits the fan, aggro song, mana song, proc song, haste, doves song... the list goes on and on. And (granted with the full Agi line and aggro song off) I've been able to pull aggro from a Tank that isn't expecting it. In a guild group with a Guard, Assas, Swash, Troub(me) and a Fury(Pick up) the Guard almost put his aggro debuff on me. Okay that's not that great of an example because if he had put it on the Assas or Swash it would screw up their aggro trasnfer. But my point is, in a 6 person group, we can be a formidable force that can buff almost any group setup. Raiding, as I've said several times before, is another story... In another thread on this board, some one points out that if you could the groupwide damage done from Aria's procs that we do well over 3k dps. The interesting thing about that, as some one else pointed out, is that if you spam your hearts out and make 1kdps, 2/3s of your contribution to the group(Aria) is passive. Lame. Give us more songs like JC, PoTM. And if we had instruments that increased certian songs potency (Drums for haste, Lute for mana etc) people would have the choice of Duel Weilding or sacrificing some DPS for better buffs, which is what our class is about. Fix runspeed. Remove Root/Daze from Precision, give us more Active Utility. Mezzing Epics again anyone?

[missing_peace]

roces9 wrote:

Also, I don't know who said otherwise, but I think our role in small groups is just fine. Especially in zones with a lot of single ^^^ adds. Like in CoV with JC on (don't have full duration mez, only 3AAs atm) I can keep 2 different mobs locked down for a good long time. And if I have trouble with people breaking my mezzes, I can just charm it so they will know not to attack. PoTM and Jester's for when the stuff hits the fan, aggro song, mana song, proc song, haste, doves song... the list goes on and on. And (granted with the full Agi line and aggro song off) I've been able to pull aggro from a Tank that isn't expecting it. In a guild group with a Guard, Assas, Swash, Troub(me) and a Fury(Pick up) the Guard almost put his aggro debuff on me. Okay that's not that great of an example because if he had put it on the Assas or Swash it would screw up their aggro trasnfer. But my point is, in a 6 person group, we can be a formidable force that can buff almost any group setup.

It was I who originally brought up the subject of small group play.  First, I want to clear something up.  A Small group is a duo or trio.  You are specifically using a full group as an example here.  I do not think that the two situations are the same.

The buffing ability of the troubadour is such that the more group members there are, the better it all scales.  This is why raid groups and full heroic groups are usually fine with a troubadour as everyone in the group will typically gain some benefit.  This, of course, still does not justify the low personal DPS (at least in my opinion.)  However, you must think of those who will usually play primarily with their spouse or a family member of maybe their best buddies.  With only two or three group members, the troubadours buffs do not help near as much.

My biggest problem is the fact that a troubadour cannot hold aggro from a healer (of any kind) due to low DPS.  A troubadour has no taunts, no stances and no effective way to increase DPS.  Since healers can now out DPS a troubadour solo this can cause major problems.

A troubadour self buffed should be just as powerful and effective as any other class self buffed.  I see no reason why this should not be made true.