Welcome to the Jungle: EQ2 PvP

[Firam]

Editor's Note: The first thing I did before leaving PVE and restarting on Nagafen was sift through the PvP forums.  I remember very clearly one of the stickied posts in the old forums, as it laid out the "feel" of EQ2 PvP very poignantly for me even before I got to the server in the first place.  Sadly, the post was lost when the forums were changed, but today I saw someone who had it archived post it again, and I think it needs to be brought back as a sticky.  I do not remember the name of the original poster, so if someone has that info I'll edit this thread to give them full credit as deserved.  I do remember them only having a handful (5? 8?) total posts and I thought that it was pretty swank to see someone who's not a forum regular express themselves so clearly.  And remember, this was posted a *long* time ago.  In light of the changes in the works for PvP, and the generally escalating whinefests over the last year here, I think this needs to be re-read by all of us, so without further ado: ------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: This is going to be long, opinionated, and blunt, but I've been reading a few too many threads from people who don't seem to understand what it is that they got themselves into, and are clamoring for SOE to run to the rescue and change everything about the game to suit their particular idea of just what "PvP" is. This is coming from a long-time EQ and EQ2 player, but by no means am I claiming to be an expert on EQ or PvP. I'm just a player who understands what game it is I'm playing. Now then, who I am: I played EQ1 on Rallos Zek back when it was the only "red" server there was. I played on Tallon Zek when it opened, was a long-time player there during the glory days of large-scale good vs. evil battles, daily raids between Nektulos and West Freeport, and moved on to Sullon Zek when it opened, and played on the good (read: suicidal) team. I was mediocre at best, hardly a feared PKer, but I learned to survive and enjoyed what I played, no matter if I was outmatched or not. I understood what I was playing. Now that EQ2 has opened PvP servers, I couldn't help but join in. But I've noticed that there are large numbers of "bluebies" who came to these servers not understanding the nature of PvP in EQ games. This is evident in the incredible number of threads on this board where people are crying for everything to be changed to support what they thought it is. So let's get this started with the fundamental laws of the jungle. Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die. There's no getting out of it. You did not come here to be safe. You were safe before. Now, those strawberry fields of treasure and experience are crawling with cutthroats who know where you used to go, what you used to do, what you used to seek there, and how to use this knowledge to catch you and inflict death on you. They aren't going to wait for you to get ready. They aren't going to play fair. They aren't going to care if a particular spell or tactic is too devastating if they catch you with it. Your only way around it is to learn them- learn where they are, learn what they're after, learn what they're going to do, and prepare yourself ahead of time. And no matter how well-prepared you are for what's out there- you are still going to die. There is no way out of Law #1. Whether it's at the hands of someone at the top of your attack range picking you off just because you're there, whether it's a group of players lower than you who gang up and tear you apart, whether it's an even-con, similar class who just happens to get that last shot in before you, whether it's some punk who sucker-punches you right after a tough fight, or whether it's someone whom you thought had no chance in hell who happens to get lucky, you're going to be killed. If this bothers you, you made a mistake. Law of the Jungle #2: This isn't your mother's RPG You can't play the same EQ2 you played when they weren't after you. The gear that was excellent enough to live in because of its effectiveness against the mindless MOBs isn't worth squat- you have to outfit yourself with your most dreaded foes in mind. Resists are king, the stats you used to drool over are just going to have to take the bench. You can't just trot over to your favorite hunting grounds to knock out that writ or exploration quest anymore. They know that those spots attract people who still think that they're playing the same game, and they will be waiting for you. (See Law #1) You have to forget everything you learned on the blue servers, and be prepared to learn it all over again. There are new rules for how to get a level. There are new rules for where to hunt, and there are new rules for which routes to take through the lands. If it's something that many people used to do or where many people used to go, it is now bait that will lead many people to their deaths. If you thought that you were going to play the same route you played before to get to level 60-whatever except that you can kill people now, you made a mistake. Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed All classes have advantages in certain situations. If you find yourself in one of these situations and you aren't the class in question, see Law #1. So, such-and-such a class can take you down solo if they get the jump on you, if all they do is X and Y? Well, yes. That's what they do, and you were there. The essence of EQ2 is that all classes have advantages and weaknesses, and the way we overcome our weaknesses isn't telling the game developer to take them away, or give you someone else's advantage. The way you overcome these weaknesses is by grouping with someone who can complement them. You're not here to run around solo and have a fair, balanced even 1v1 match against everyone you meet. That's not PvP, that's dueling. Running around alone isn't something you have the right to do. Not all classes were meant to solo in PvE as well as others, what makes you think this is any different? And if your class can't do what so-and-so does, they shouldn't. Everyone has "certain classes" who flat-out have them beat. Everyone has classes that can't hold a candle to them. This is not, nor should it be, a game where you always stand a fair chance. There's more to PvP that who has what nuke or how many hitpoints or what dps rate is. PvP is about knowing everything you can do and how it works, not just what numbers scrolled up when you fought mobs before. If you can't fight them, learn how to. If you can't learn and expect SOE to change everything around to suit you, you made a mistake. Crying that you can't beat X class and they need to be nerfed doesn't mean you're right, it means you're an unskilled player who doesn't understand how to play his class. You also have to understand the other classes and what their weaknesses are. Learn, Adapt, and Grow; if you can't do that then you're not cut out for this. Law of the Jungle #4: Success is measured by survival Any idiot can rack up a high number of kills, that doesn't make them skilled. Your skill isn't determined by how many people of what level you can take on. And the little punk who ran away, or zoned, or avoided you altogether, he's not a coward, he's smart. Just because you engage someone doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. You have to earn that kill. If they get away, they survived. If they fight back too hard and you're outmatched, sticking around and letting them have you isn't brave or honorable, it's stupid. Make them earn it! If you can get away, you deserved to. If you can't out-damage them because you're in offensive stance and they're in defensive stance, it's not unfair- they're just thinking ahead of you. Don't lower your defenses just because you think that extra bit of dps that you used to get against mobs is going to turn the tide- because you're thinking in terms of a kill you haven't earned yet and not thinking with survival in mind. If all those nasty roots and spells and whatever are eating you up, stock up on items that take care of them: potions, resist gear, etc. If it isn't a piece of gear with surviving an attack in its design, you made a mistake. It takes time, patience, and smarts to figure out all the little tricks, tactics, and items that help you survive in this world. It's not about killing- it's about depriving your enemy of the kill. If this isn't your primary thought when planning every last detail your character from skills to selections to gear to hotkeys to camera angle to system options, see Law #1. You aren't a good PvPer because of who you fight and which fights you win, you are a good PvPer depending on your overall level of preparation and how many times you can count that that preparation saves your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god Too many of you have had that time when you have those cute little adolescent fantasies about being a powerful, unstoppable killing machine with the title of Overlord while wielding the shiniest, largest and most phallic weapon in Norrath and laying out every single foe you happen to encounter through sheer invincibility. It ain't gonna happen- ever. (See Law #1) PvP isn't for people who like to play single-player games in godmode, spanky. You didn't come here to be godlike, you came here to embrace mortality. You aren't just here to kill other players- you came here to give them permission to kill you, to utilize advatages over you, to take advantage of your weaknesses, to leave you broken and bleeding while they /dance on your corpse and count their money. If you came here planning on becoming the all-powerful king of the hill that no one can topple, you made a mistake. Even as the server ages, everyone's going to bunch up in the higher levels and guilds and players are going to be after you more than ever. You will never be safe again. The safe servers are still where you left them.l Law of the Jungle #6: It's still just a game Playing on a PvP server doesn't take cojones. It doesn't take an iron will, or an asbestos stomach. It doesn't make you a man. You're still an EQ2 geek just like the rest of us, it's just a lot more difficult. If it's too hard, too frustrating, too unfair, too immature, too cutthroat, too inconvenient, or if you're just not that good at it or if you think that so-and-so shouldn't be doing such-and-such because it "ruins" your fun, then it's not for you. You're here if you enjoy what you're playing. If you are here because you want to enjoy it, but you're not, don't expect SOE to get rid of everything you don't like about it. It is what it is. It's MEAN. And if  someone one-shots you, or takes your plat that you were just on your way to bank, or whatever else it may be that spoiled your plans, well, you either suck it up and keep playing or you're on the wrong server. It's only "griefing" if you let it give you grief. If you can't laugh it off, you're the problem. If you're not having fun, you made a mistake. This ugly duckling isn't going to grow up into a swan, you just have to love it unconditionally and understand that yes, it's always going to look like that. There's no shame in playing on the blue servers if that's more your cup of tea, we're all here to play games, and the game you play isn't a reflection on your status as a human being. But PvP is a different game. If you could go live in a beachhouse with central air and plasma-screen TV's for the same price, why would you move into a shack with no plumbing or power and complain about the leak in the roof? You have to want to live in this shack. Don't expect SOE to turn it into a resort, they've already built those for you. All of these factors lead me to one final point. Filling up boards with complaints that "X class can do this and I can't and so-and-so ganked me when I was fighting and I was 10 levels lower than him and I can't go anywhere without being bind-camped  and SOE needs to FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY" doesn't help anyone- it only buries legitimate issues like bugs and exploits under mountains of whining by people who can't seem to understand that they are just not that good at the game. There's only one thing that should be on your mind when you think about all the problems with PvP and the PvP servers. The final, and truest Law of the Jungle: LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.

[Greeen-_-Ranger]

Please re-sticky this thread, because it's as accurate today as ever, maybe put this after the start video in game so that people understand they are going to get the crap beat out of them when they first start, but that it WILL get better.   

[Mournblades]

Thank you.  This is EXACTLY what I have been talking about.

The CAREBEARS that have joined us and are reponsible for all the recent nonsense need to understand PVP is not meant to be nice and 'fair'.  You are going to die and a lot to superior opponents, be that gear/ca's/aa's ect.  Notice I mentioned anything about 'skill'.  I hesitate to call any online game skill because to me it is just pushing a few buttons.  That may be 10 buttons or 50 buttons it realy makes little difference and if you disagree that is fine.  It just proves my point.  You are one of the players that dies a lot and will always die a lot.  Learn to accept that or accept the fact PVP is NOT for you!

Please do not take this as you are good for nothing.  You are just not good at pvp.  EQ2 has plenty safe places to level and you can go to the arena to fight people whenever you feel like it remember?  All this can be found on a pve server.  So please stop trying to screw around with something you are just not meant for.

Michael Jordan was one of the best at basketball and when he tried to diversify his athletics to baseball look what happened?  He sucked!  He simply did not belong there...

[Rastaah]

When I had a guild, I put this on the website.

This should be in the eq2 pvp manual, not sure why it got unstickied...an overzealous mod perhaps.

[Image_Vain]

LAW OF THE JUNGLE #7: THIS GAME DOESN'T TAKE SKILL.

[Broccoliswo]

If that was true, you'd be good at it too and not crying on the other board about how you think nerfing is fair and needed.

[Greeen-_-Ranger]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

If that was true, you'd be good at it too and not crying on the other board about how you think nerfing is fair and needed.

/agree.

[KannaWhoopass]

The reduction of PvP levels in zones

and level locking low levels made this post Obsolete

Law of the Jungle #3: Nobody needs to be nerfed

Not true ..

Law of the Jungle #5: You are never going to be a god

not true of too many scout classes which is why #3 no longer applied if the pvp ranges were still 6 or 8 levels perhaps it wouldnt be so bad level locked twinks are gods rule is void

Law of the Jungle #1: You are going to die.

Look at the leader boards , top 100 players 70% are under level 25 . kill ratios of 40:1 , rule #1 doesnt seem to be in effect for those who rule #5 doesnt apply.

I always thought the welcome to the jungle was a pretentious garbage post .. let it die

[Image_Vain]

Ugh, nerf this, nerf that, stop nerfing stuff and let us play the game lol, but they do need to add PVE zones in PVP servers.

[silentpsycho]

Read this because it is the truth.  Please sticky this.

[Rhannnn]

Broccolisword@Nagafen wrote:

If that was true, you'd be good at it too and not crying on the other board about how you think nerfing is fair and needed.

Totally Agree.

 Every second post I see is one from Image Vain.

I've got a tip: less posting here .. more actuall playing time ... more experience in how to pvp

result: happier while playing EQ2 !

Rhan

lvl70 Ranger

[Drager]

this post has inspired me i think they should drop it in leaflets through the streets. i always got tierd of my friends complaining about how they lost thier title when i could never get one and saying how they were going to quite when me and my wizard would always die first. this post has inspired me to find my enemys weakness and hunt him relentlessly thank you

[Netzoko]

Very motivating, thank you.

[D-DevilK]

The core message of "Welcome to the Jungle", is -- Adopt, Adapt, Improve. There are minor flaws in the logic, but the on the whole the smarter thing to do is stop moaning and deal with it.

[Image_Vain]

Well I PVP, read the forums, and post all at the same time

[Ther]

I saw this post back in the day. It was a great post and I agreed with it 100%, then.

Now, things have changed. Level locking is killing the community because new players are not having fun. Reading this post isn't going to help that. Nerfing level locks HARD, however, will.

The point of a game is that you pick it up and enjoy yourself, as opposed to, as those who support the status quo suggest, you make the game a full time suck-fest job for weeks or months playing catch-up, then have fun.

[Image_Vain]

Dazzinian@Venekor wrote:

I saw this post back in the day. It was a great post and I agreed with it 100%, then.

Now, things have changed. Level locking is killing the community because new players are not having fun. Reading this post isn't going to help that. Nerfing level locks HARD, however, will.

The point of a game is that you pick it up and enjoy yourself, as opposed to, as those who support the status quo suggest, you make the game a full time suck-fest job for weeks or months playing catch-up, then have fun.

Most probably the most intelligent post ever made, besides mine.

[Luxun]

You see the part about survival ?

How can we survive now ? its crazy that we can no longer live .....they really need to re-open some kind of escape path for small groups that are pvpign and suddenly have a raid roll over them.

[Image_Vain]

Luxun wrote:

You see the part about survival ?

How can we survive now ? its crazy that we can no longer live .....they really need to re-open some kind of escape path for small groups that are pvpign and suddenly have a raid roll over them.

Wow you joined exactly when I did! Well actually I played back in the day so... Anyway, no, I think if your trying to kill other players, then you deserve to be run other by an X4 pvp raid party [Removed for Content].

[Ikuri]

.

[Luxun]

Image_Vain wrote:

Luxun wrote:

You see the part about survival ?

How can we survive now ? its crazy that we can no longer live .....they really need to re-open some kind of escape path for small groups that are pvpign and suddenly have a raid roll over them.

Wow you joined exactly when I did! Well actually I played back in the day so... Anyway, no, I think if your trying to kill other players, then you deserve to be run other by an X4 pvp raid party [Removed for Content].

I have played pvp games before and in no game did ,my speed ever droppedi n pvp and all escape paths blocked. It makes no sense. Half of a battle is survival and ability to retreat from a losing fight. Its nmot just kill kill kill kill any mindless 5 year old could manage that kind of pvp.

Just because certain players are too lazy to put their minds to work to try to earn a kill ...are now being awarded with cheap kills. Get in a x4 and roll over t7 zones and kill peopel that are locked in pvp encounters with each other.

Also this is my alt account not the main account.

[Mournblades]

Dazzinian@Venekor wrote:

I saw this post back in the day. It was a great post and I agreed with it 100%, then.

Now, things have changed. Level locking is killing the community because new players are not having fun. Reading this post isn't going to help that. Nerfing level locks HARD, however, will.

The point of a game is that you pick it up and enjoy yourself, as opposed to, as those who support the status quo suggest, you make the game a full time suck-fest job for weeks or months playing catch-up, then have fun.

Yeah that's smart.  [Removed for Content] off the people who worked for their [I cannot control my vocabulary] and cater to the new clientel!  Why can't you CAREBEARS get it through your thick skull there is a place for this, but it aint PVP.  It's called PVE.

The OP applies NOW just as much as then!  Nothing has changed.  When I 1st started with 2 friends who have been playing EQ2 since launch we had nothing!  We died and we died lots.  Not once did any of us cry foul including my friends wife who had ZERO PVP experience.

We learned to survive and survive well.  This is the pvp experience/fun and people like you need to realize this before you run the game into another lifeless pve+ CAREBEAR game.

Really why are you here?  You can get the same satisfaction from a blue server.  PVP is not for the meek and not for people who can't handle being dominated.  And before anyone spews more garbage: NO I do not think griefing new players is fun, but it is part of the game.  We need 550+ faction kills to get the 1st pvp item.  If you really want to address the issue make lowbie zones which are pvp free, but do not mess with locking/twinking what-have-you.  Oh wait... that sounds a hell of a lot like a pve server. 

Are you getting the hint yet??

[Image_Vain]

Stashe wrote:

couple people on this thread need to [I cannot control my vocabulary] and go back to the RP server. Image Vain, not only am i looking in your general direction, but i'm mentioning your name specifically and in particular.

I dont roleplay.............

[Tricit2]

I think the nerf on Rangers was a tad too much. Perhaps the rogues got too much nerfed, as well. That doesn't mean that they will not be great classes anymore. One tracks invisible people while the other tracks stealthed people. Tracking will always be useful for hunting in the jungle.

[Luxun]

Tricit2 wrote:

I think the nerf on Rangers was a tad too much. Perhaps the rogues got too much nerfed, as well. That doesn't mean that they will not be great classes anymore. One tracks invisible people while the other tracks stealthed people. Tracking will always be useful for hunting in the jungle.

Honestly i fought a lot of rangers in T7 ..they are just NOT overpowered. Though it may have seemed like thay weren't to a SK, but this nerf is really harsh. They really need their snares and roots, besides those roots and snares break so often once theystart hitting you, you can use potions to removethem ect. To nerf their damage, their speed, their movement control stuff AND their dps makes no sense at all.  Only 2 classes that needed nerfs were Swashies and Brigands ...so rouges and rouges only.

What I don't understand is when eof went live and rangers could bring their sprint speed to 80%+ ...didn't it ring any DEV's bell that it was ogign to cause problems in pvp ? I mean this wasn;t something someone culd overlook, it wasn't rocket science, who in the blue hell thought such a addition to their arsenal would not cause issues in pvp  ? but nooo they ignore the player base's feedback, they even ignore their own common sense. Now they come and totally cripple the ranger class while in all honestly it didn't need to be toned down too much.

SOE DEVs need to stop being to extreme, its either north or south to them ..but whatthey don't realize is, its the balance of north and south that keeps the world together and stable.  They give a class 90% sprint ..then they come i nand take it all away, nerf their nsares and roots, hen nerf their dps too ....BALANCE DEvs...BALANCE. 

[silentpsycho]

I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...

[dr4gonUK]

silentpsycho wrote:

I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...

QFE.

Totally agree. The people who complain about the game non stop should not be playing pvp. They are not capable of rising to the challenge imo and should go back to WoW or Kittys Island adventure or whatever the heck noob game they were playing before they hitup eq2.

[silentpsycho]

Herne@Nagafen wrote:

silentpsycho wrote:

I find it completely ironic that people post complete and utter crap whining about the way they want the servers changed to suite their ability (or, more accurately, lack thereof) and playstyle.  Don't sticky this thread, it's been turned into an embarasment.  I'm ashamed of the whines posted on an otherwise totally inspiring thread that should remind people why they roll on a pvp server in the first place.  But, if you happen to find the original thread, or can remove everything after the first post or two, sticky that...

QFE.

Totally agree. The people who complain about the game non stop should not be playing pvp. They are not capable of rising to the challenge imo and should go back to WoW or Kittys Island adventure or whatever the heck noob game they were playing before they hitup eq2.

The problem, of course, is the fact that, as demonstrated on the test server, the devs are catering to the carebears instead of the sort of players that appreciate the original spirit of this thread.  The folks whining about nerf this and nerf that and that locking is ruining such and such should put a stick in it and just log into a blue server where everyone *does* get a fair shake. 

[Rastaah]

Im all for hardcore pvp but the level locking is utterly dumb. I like free for all pvp and I like NO level limits.  The level locking just makes it so people can sit in Darklight all day picking off newb players for kicks .  I have no doubt some of you guys level lock with intentions of just improving your character and experiencing content, and thats fine. What I think is stupid is the lack of risk the people who sit in places like Darklight encounter.   These twinks sit there with utterly NO risk for the most part.  I want to be able to go kick ther cowardly arses with my higher level and protect my lands. 

Honestly, don't take out level locking, take out level limits /evil grin.

[silentpsycho]

Rastaah wrote:

Im all for hardcore pvp but the level locking is utterly dumb. I like free for all pvp and I like NO level limits.  The level locking just makes it so people can sit in Darklight all day picking off newb players for kicks .  I have no doubt some of you guys level lock with intentions of just improving your character and experiencing content, and thats fine. What I think is stupid is the lack of risk the people who sit in places like Darklight encounter.   These twinks sit there with utterly NO risk for the most part.  I want to be able to go kick ther cowardly arses with my higher level and protect my lands. 

Honestly, don't take out level locking, take out level limits /evil grin.

First, from what you said, it's not level locking you have a problem with, it's twinked out level 14's slaughtering the treasured gear clad 10's.  But, this happens in every tier, with ever increasing level and gear disparity as you go all the way up to T7 - where the folks that have been raiding for 2+ years love to sit around and slaughter brand new level 60's and cloud hop all day with their x4 raid forces...  Ya, loads of fun and skilled pvp there...  Anyway, if the thought is that allowing a level 70 to squash level 10's would start us policing our own, that is an interesting thought.  It happend on some EQ1 PVP servers (SZ FTW), but I fear that the average prepubescent level 70 would form up an x4 raid and go camp DL Wood, Ruins, Caves, GfFay, etc. just to get free faction and "pwn u 100ze7!!1!" (whatever the heck that means).

What locking does is gives those folks getting ganked day in and day out a chance to get even by bettering their character.  Without logging into www.platzus.com and buying 200 plat if they are willing to work on it.  Hard.  For a long, non-trivial amount of time.

And, evidently, improving your character by investing time and/or experiencing content that frankly I didn't even know existed *IS NOT* fine, because it is being removed from the game.  I, for one, smell a conspiricy brewing here involving plat farmers/sellers trying to drive up demand for their (supposedly illegal, but largely ignored) products.