Attn: Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, SOE

Ackron · 06-15-2007, 06:01 PM

haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes.

The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this:

Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP).

Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T.

I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions.

Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS.

Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level.

Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70.

The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server.

In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill.

PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE.

Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon.

sprogn · 06-15-2007, 06:22 PM

Very well written. Completely agree with you.

Unfortunately it ends up as almost a parallel game. You have the level locker twinks who want nothing else than to fight new players for easy ganks. Then you have the anti-level locker lockers, who lock 3-4 levels higher than the usual lockers to beat the lockers at their own game....

I actually like the open game idea more. Enlarge the "safe zones" around the cities and L10-20 zones. (All zones up to but EXCLUDING Antonica and Commonlands). After that, make PVP open season, tweak the fame system so a fame hit is given for killing greys who are not already engaged in PVP combat.

/zips up in flame retardent suit...

Zexxii · 06-15-2007, 06:22 PM

what would fix the twink problem, would be a con system that took into account gear and spells, but i'm sure that's nearly impossible to implement.... SMILEY

Hon · 06-15-2007, 06:53 PM

Well written and it is true that the level lockers are hindering new players from joining the PvP servers. However, I've found that there is no perfect PvP system. If you take away the ability to disable combat XP, then people level too quickly and miss content.

Right now GU 36 is trying to address your concern by limiting the number of AA people can get per level and by removing the XP debt. While I think the limited AA is okay, the removal of the XP debt is over kill. Why? Well people only suicide on the guards repeatedly so the level slower, and give more time to get AA's. With a cap on the number of AA per level, there won't be a need for guard suicide.

Will GU 36 have an impact on the number of griefers?

No.

People grief because.... they can. Its human nature to be mean and selfish. Unlike in real life where the risk of prison is real, computer generated worlds have no consequences. Even if you opened up the level range, then you'd just have level 70's killing level 10's. I came from a PvP server on WoW, and that was the way it is.

I'm sorry, but there is no easy way to stop this from happening. This game wasn't designed with PvP in mind.

Amphibia · 06-15-2007, 07:35 PM

sprognak wrote:

I actually like the open game idea more. Enlarge the "safe zones" around the cities and L10-20 zones. (All zones up to but EXCLUDING Antonica and Commonlands). After that, make PVP open season, tweak the fame system so a fame hit is given for killing greys who are not already engaged in PVP combat.
/zips up in flame retardent suit...

I think every solution to this problem will have lots of side effects. If lowbies were to lose fame to red cons, they would be camped and ganked to no end. This would kill low level PvP and effectively force everyone to get to 70 in a hurry. That may sound awesome for high level people who are sick and tired of standing at WW waiting for that bot to swing by.... but many subscriptions might get lost in the process. Personally I like the idea of open PvP, but rather without any fame loss for greys if they don't attack first. Let the level 70 player gain faction only, then the lowbie won't really lose anything by dying. Maybe also increase both XP and AA gain a little on PvP servers to make it easier for people to level up - combine this with no XP debt and maybe open PvP wouldn't be so bad. And then perhaps also add some more fun stuff in tier 7 that would make it much more desirable to level up than just staying locked in lower tiers. (PvP gear for level 70 only was actually a good idea in this regard.) The lack of interest in getting to 70 seems to be mainly a PvP server thing, btw. I never saw that on my old blue server...

Magius789 · 06-15-2007, 08:42 PM

Ackron once again very nice post and well worded, I only hope SOMEONE at SOE pays attention to it.

Does anybody else think that the more expansions that come out and the higher our lvl cap gets the bigger these problems will become? People at 70 are bored because of no PvP, well when it goes to 80 we would need a certain % increase in our player base to try and have active PvP in most lvls. Eventually the lvl cap will get so high there will only be very limited amounts of PvP through all Tiers unless there is a HUGE spike in the player base. Am I making any sense? Also not letting 70's get anything from lowbies is a good idea, hopefully if something like this happened those people would decide to lvl because everytime someone in the caves shouts there are lvl lockers needlessly ganking people a 70 will come and scare them away. Then it happens so frequently they just decide to lvl anyway.

Krokous · 06-15-2007, 08:44 PM

agree, we want to see dev response on this! either give nobies much more master drops/good lvl 10 armors with resists or disable xp debt/turning combat xp off

w1 · 06-15-2007, 08:57 PM

Icculus@Venekor wrote:

haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes.
The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this:
Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP).
Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T.
I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions.
Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS.
Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level.
Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70.
The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server.
In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill.
PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE.
Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon.

Whine more plz, k thanx.

dellaripa · 06-15-2007, 08:59 PM

I just don't get it. I have leveled several hatchlings up in the last few months, non twinked, non locked and all solo, and besides an occasional gank, it hasn't been a frustrating experience. I have also leveled up 1 level locked twink, and the only thing frustrating about that is there's always, and I mean always, people more twinked than me. The people who get frustrated the most are those that realize this.

The problem with fundamental tweaking of the PVP system is that it WILL drive people away. Remember when they changed Antonica and Commonlands to +- 4 levels? That drove many people away. My friends list became empty. Another big change will do the same.

The solution to ganking is simple. Level past it, or level slow enough to compete.

Magius789 · 06-15-2007, 09:08 PM

I love the people that say "k, thnxs" makes me feel like I'm back in middle school again or talking to my 13 year old niece. SMILEY

Daemondred · 06-15-2007, 09:33 PM

Icculus@Venekor wrote:

haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes.
The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this:
Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP).
Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T.
I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions.
Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS.
Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level.
Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70.
The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server.
In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill.
PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE.
Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon.

Good post well written.

Ozgood · 06-15-2007, 10:15 PM

Very well written indeed. I would like to add a couple of points myself, if I may. If, you or someone of authority do decide to read this post, hopefully someone in here you will find something of use and implement it. As I said before, I like almost all the changes you have made and the tough decisions you have made in your effort to balance this game, continue it and somehow maintain a loyal paying customer base to pay for all the changes. So just so you know, I am not a critic, powergamer or what have you, just a paying customer since EQ1 launch. With that said:

What is your target audience? Are you trying to get more subscribers or keep the ones you have? Don't answer that of course, but here is why I ask these questions:

EQ2 started off to be an easier, non-EQ1, yet sharing the same name game. Whereas you used to have class, race restrictions and factions, EQ2 was more vanilla. As you said in an lengthy interview, (yes I read it) the Devs told you the game was boring and had no personality of it's own. EQ1 was what made it great and to not build off that success would be a mistake. So your team switched directions, made tough decisions and had one of the best PVE games on the market. Through voice acting, great graphics, in depth quests, you made it an immersive world.

Then other games surfaced, all with PVE and PvP and became VERY profitable because anyone with a computer from Walmart could play them. EQ2, not so much, but getting better. Rather than give the entire history, I will stop there to get to my point.

What is EQ2 supposed to be now; a PVE game with great graphics (which Vanguards are now better), an easy game that anyone can play (my 9 yo mastered HO's) a PvP game or a game for those with elite computer systems? I think you tryed to be all those things, did o.k., but never really owned a market share or was the best at anything. People have came and left because of this, just like in all MMOs, but people are not picking up this game as new customers and blown away by a refined, polished game.

To be more concise, I think it is time that people truly understood their class roles and what they were designed to do. Somehow, a long time ago, someone came up with this T1, T2 DPS stuff and it was immediately cookie cuttered which classes did what. You didn't correct them. Nor did you change the class descriptions to better reflect WHY the changes that you have made and are making with this new GU. Those are the same descriptions from when the game launched.

Tell people, customers, what your niche as a game is and what their niche as a class/race is. Who are designed to be raiders, solo'ers, utility so that when they sign on, they know what they are getting into.

If you are trying to be a GREAT PVE game, then scrap this afterthought of a PvP system and focus on that. Allow Vanguard to be the PvP game of SOE's. A lot less headaches.

If you are trying to be a PvP game as well as a PvE game, you have a great platform, but I never understood why you didn't use it. People get to 70, raid, raid, raid, then re-roll, twink and raid, raid on PVE servers, then /cancel. Time for something new. People on PVP servers, it's gank or get ganked, stay and become Gods and others just leave.

PvP is a VIABLE market. Most of the successful, profitable games out there (Blizzard is making a BILLION a year off of WoW) have a PvP system. Make the PvP servers, FFA hardcore servers and let them loose, or give them a chance to transfer. I love the idea of slowing down PvP, great job there.

But instead of having rules for this server and non-pvp servers and having to cater to two audiences, why not combine them? Why not re-market yourself as a PvP and PVE game? It would be a great way to get those new subscribers and give the old ones something to do that is new and fresh.

How would it work? Freeport and Qeynos obviously share two different visions. You DESIGNED IT THAT WAY, even have RP servers where dwarf SKs roll with Ogre Pallies. This doesn't make any sense to me, but hey, we can't scrap the whole thing, so here is how it would work:

Both Freeport and Qeynos are at war, which makes sense. Through some questing and proof of their loyalty, a toon COULD swear their allegiance and become part of the Royal Guard or Headhunters of Freeport. Once they DECIDE they wish to protect their homeland, they would be sent to specific zones, on a mission to do something or eradicate someone. No other way to be sent to a zone unless the Commander sends them, which would port them into an instance, monitored by VOLUME of players (so both sides were close to equal), and level. Once in the zone, which is a FREEP versus Q's FFA, you could not talk with the opposing faction, but PvP emotes could be added to convey general feelings. You could leave the zone at any time.

Put this type of system on ALL servers. People will sign up for something like this, others won't. It gives them an option however.

Those that did serve, who be given military titles, broker discounts, status reductions and even trophies and weapons indicating their valor in battle. No more, title keeping, status, perma gank, unfair battles, it would be based off player skill and their ability to work TOGETHER.

Either way, you probably won't read this, I will probably get flamed, but my point is still that we need some idea of the direction of this game. People will quit over this GU, if they don't understand the bigger picture. Time to enlighten us.

Kay · 06-15-2007, 10:22 PM

I have to say, while I understand and agree w/ alot of what was said, I still like the ability to lock a character's level. Example: I have a level 70 fury on the nagafen server that is exiled. She is mostly a raiding toon, but I do try and pvp w/ her when i can. What ends up happening is endless hours of flying from one island to another in kos on those stupid little clouds. Then we try sinking sands, and it's now it's those carpets. And EoF is usually just a ghost town as far as t7 pvp. I hate sitting around a cloud platform waiting for someone to fly in, only to have them fly off as soon as they land. So instead, I have a little level 45 exiled dirge (not locked, but if i ever get to 50 i will most likely do so) that I use to pvp in the lower tier zones with. Enchanted Lands, OOLS, Feerott, Cazic-Thule, Everfrost - all these zones offer different challenges. You actually get to use your track to hunt down your enemies - rather than watch them fly into you. The whole environment is different and it kinda mixes it up a bit. It's kinda like taking a "break." So while i have to say that i feel bad for the person who is just starting out and getting roughed up a bunch, I still want the ability to keep my character at a low level to enjoy the lower zones. I think putting certain restrictions on level locked characters (like only getting so many aa's or whatever) sounds like a fair deal. Just my 2 cents on this whole issue. SMILEY

Kayah

Luxun · 06-15-2007, 11:53 PM

I totally agree with the OP.

Frankly the current cap of AAs is so useless, I mean my idea of twink was getting lvl 34 while having 55 AA, i wil lstill be able to do itwith the cap.

People like to argue they level lock for the competition, I can see that, it is true because pvp so much more enjoyable in antonica, TS, Nek ect ...but anyoen that says they lvl lock in t2 or t3 for competition is talking out of his rear end. There is no competition in t2, some classes haven;t even gotten any of their major skills yet.

My solution, just disable level lvl locking until lvl 25.

Simple as that.

Daemondred · 06-15-2007, 11:58 PM

Luxun wrote:

I totally agree with the OP.
Frankly the current cap of AAs is so useless, I mean my idea of twink was getting lvl 34 while having 55 AA, i wil lstill be able to do itwith the cap.
People like to argue they level lock for the competition, I can see that, it is true because pvp so much more enjoyable in antonica, TS, Nek ect ...but anyoen that says they lvl lock in t2 or t3 for competition is talking out of his rear end. There is no competition in t2, some classes haven;t even gotten any of their major skills yet.
My solution, just disable level lvl locking until lvl 25.
Simple as that.

Agreed

DudeMan · 06-16-2007, 01:35 AM

Icculus@Venekor wrote:

haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes.
The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this:
Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP).
That's a big assumption that someone went out and bought EQ2 just for PvP. Based on the number of PvP servers my guess is that the good majority of the money the are making is from the PvE guys. Now Sony gunning for the WoW subscription crowd, now that I can understand and that explains why they would want to make PvP as "easy" as possible. Show me someone that quits the game after being killed 5 times in a row and I'll show someone that would have never lasted on PvP server to begin with...
Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T.
No doubt that happens, but come on... Those guys are not representative of the PvP crowd on a whole. Most of us just like the thrill of a "real" opponent and could care less about a meaningless title.
I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions.
I confused. In the first sentence you say you are sick of "God mode cheats" and then you go to tell us how you can do the very thing you are sick of... If you can do all that in 8 hours, why can't the next guy?
Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS.
Upperhand yes, "masive upperhand", no. It doesn't matter how twinked you are, you will die to larger numbers, regardless (in some cases) of their levels. This is the real problem. Take out XP debt, level locking and AAs and players (new ones included) will still get crushed by drive-by gank squads. Taking debt and Level locking will not stop the twinks. As long as Sony allows more than one character slot per server and the rediculous amount of Plat farmers/sellers to continue, there will be twinks.
Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level.
Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70.
If you don't think there are serious discrepancies in gear/AAs in a freshly dinged lvl 70 and a Fabled raid jacked 70, then you need to come out of the instances and try some T7 PvP... Dude, the difference here is way worse then a T2 twink compared to a MC and adept 3 T2 player. How would everyone being lvl 70 be better than what we have now?
The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server.
Hardcore players will be forced to level faster than your average player because there is no other way to effectively slow the game down other than xp debt and locking. So eventually all the people that play daily will be at T7 and all the new players will be spread throughout the levels. Again, how is this an improvement? Granted I run into twinks at times that eat my lunch, but given the choice I would rather have more people around to group up with and get revenge then be eternally LFG... As bad as T2 twinks appear to be, I do appreciate them helping me kill other twinks.
In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill.
PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE.
Well it seems that we agree on something. That chit needs to stop immediately!
Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon.

CresentBlade · 06-16-2007, 02:45 AM

Icculus@Venekor wrote:

haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes.
The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this:
Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP).
Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T.
I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions.
Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS.
Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level.
Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70.
The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server.
In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill.
PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE.
Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon.

Very well written and to the point.

CresentBlade · 06-16-2007, 02:46 AM

Zexxii@Nagafen wrote:

what would fix the twink problem, would be a con system that took into account gear and spells, but i'm sure that's nearly impossible to implement....

Good suggestion, this might help.

CresentBlade · 06-16-2007, 02:51 AM

dellaripa wrote:

I just don't get it. I have leveled several hatchlings up in the last few months, non twinked, non locked and all solo, and besides an occasional gank, it hasn't been a frustrating experience. I have also leveled up 1 level locked twink, and the only thing frustrating about that is there's always, and I mean always, people more twinked than me. The people who get frustrated the most are those that realize this.
The problem with fundamental tweaking of the PVP system is that it WILL drive people away. Remember when they changed Antonica and Commonlands to +- 4 levels? That drove many people away. My friends list became empty. Another big change will do the same.
The solution to ganking is simple. Level past it, or level slow enough to compete.

You understand the game now and know what to expect brand new players think they will come try the game out and it will be fun. They just end up quitting because they cant do anything.

Just remove locking it was NEVER intended for what it is being ABUSED for now. This is something that just became hard core in last couple of months.

Harbringer Doom · 06-16-2007, 03:02 AM

I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level.

The irony in this statement is almost unbearable...

greploco · 06-16-2007, 03:15 AM

1) create a system by which people are assigned a rank/number/rating that reflects the quality of their gear, it's not real hard. neocron did this it it's low tech. just put it at the end of their name or something.

2) factor this rank/number/rating into pvp in a constructive way that encourages fights between more similarly ranked people

tiredang · 06-16-2007, 03:44 AM

Icculus@Venekor wrote:

haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes.
The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this:
Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP).

Heh, Dreadnaught Joe isn't getting his fame from those fresh from the island noobs. Dreadnaught Joe is going out and looking for champions and other dreads to fight. It's fast-level charlie that's out there slaughtering mom and dad to feel leet because picking fights with old Joe,even though Joe is green to him as well, hurts his ego SMILEY

Edit: Of course, if Joe comes across mom and dad he may kill them, but they are NOT the ones he'd be farming. He just wants the faction to get his moss covered tunic so he can level to 20!

orehn · 06-16-2007, 05:45 AM

Your post was well thought out and insightful, and so I will attempt to do the same. I feel I should first warn you that I do not share your opinion; that being said, I will pursue this topic as honestly and truthfully as you have been. I will be forthcoming with regards to the explanation of my opinion, and while I respect your right to disagree I can only ask that you in turn respect mine. What you and the entire 'anti' population need to understand is this-there is no way to stop new players from getting killed, no way at all. Debt can be disabled, AA's can be capped, locking can be taken off the PvP servers, and you could even open the level ranges up and you will still see an endless number of posts created by people fed up with dying. It's the nature of PvP, it's been a part of these games since the concept was introduced-in it's purest sense, PvP servers are an example of survival of the fittest at work. The strong overpower the weak and the weak are at times powerless to defend. Simply, albeit bluntly-that's life. In your first example, mom and dad decided to roll characters on a PvP server and got ganked a few times; it happens to all of us, even us evil twinks. Dreadnaught Joe had a fun time destroying them and they got discouraged and left, which while it may be bad for business in that SOE may have lost two customers, it was NOT bad for PvP. Bad newbies one day become bad highbies, either way their discouragement and departure is inevitable. It is a foregone conclusion that those who cannot handle dying in PvP will not last, I have friends who are great people but for whatever reason let all of this stuff get to them and no longer share Ventrilo with me each night. To be perfectly frank with you, I do not want mom and dad here. I don't want them in my group, I don't want them in my guild, I don't want to have to read about their difficult time in any of the public chat channels. There's a saying that fits in this case, 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen'. All of us went through this, whether you started on the server the night it opened or moments ago-I'm sure a few of us remember weeks of getting rolled by mentored high levels, the sense of dread one felt knowing there were always ten people camping a griffin tower, and the aforementioned necro swarm pet. Those hard times made all of us better at this game because it forced us to develop a think skin. By taking that "Training" away, all you're doing is prolonging mom and dad's experience until they've ultimately wasted hundreds of hours of their lives leveling up-who do you think is more upset and less likely to keep their subscription active, the person who quits after six days or the person who quits after six months? After six days an account has yet to even bill. All the changes in the world can be made and people who can't hack it will still quit. You can take away my AA's, you can take away my debt, you can even take away my right to lock my experience and I will STILL repeatedly kill the people who don't have the tenacity and thick skin needed to survive in this version of the virtual MMO world. Disable level ranges and things will be ten times worse-I'll simply log my 70 in and have an hour or two of fun a night in the newbie zones. Answer me this, how is that better? Sure, you'd be out there giving those dirty twinks a reason to level up on your beefcake level 70 toon, but in the meantime I've just made mom and dad delete their new characters by showing them what Inspiration really is. Since the advent of PvP in the online world, people have died. Sure, new players come along who can't deal with the hardships of being on their guard at all times; and those players either learn the ropes and adapt, or they go back to Butcherblock where they probably belong. If that isn't enough for you, if you can't sleep at night because the thought of some poor new player getting ganked is too unbearable, then perhaps you take this just a little too seriously. After all is said and done, mom and dad were bound to leave the server if they couldn't hack PvP. Let me just be straightforward and candid here, a PvP server isn't really for the folks, now is it?

Eybietie · 06-16-2007, 08:10 AM

aren´t there enough threads regarding this topic? you can leave scott a msg on icq even if he is offline btw SMILEY

Ackron · 06-16-2007, 09:26 AM

ok after reading the responses on Venekor forum and here, I have this to say:

My main was Ackron. I ran Bel Vaka as guild leader, and took her to #4 worldwide for most kills per member. My wife Teila is the number one killer on venekor with 11,000 kills and number one worldwide for city kills with over 1,100. So far I've seen at least a handful of twinks who have replied to this thread with less than a thousand kills. Bravo you haven't killed that many people, and the ones you did kill came easy.

My new main is Icculus. I got him for level 1-60 in 3 days /played. 911 kills, 162 city, 21 days old now. I FREAKIN PVP. So leveling fast isn't a problem, sure 1-60 in 3 days is hella fast (72 hours of gaming). But if one wanted to level it's available.

Now the meat and potatoes.

I have three friends from my first person shooter clan that recently joined. They started in Neriak and have been trying to just group with each other and level a little. After getting ganked raw for two days straight three of my level 70 friends mentored them and got em to 25 in about an hour or two. I can't afford to twink my friends each level till 70 so they don't get owned, and more importantly, I CAN'T DO A [I cannot control my vocabulary] THING ABOUT THE LEVEL LOCKERS. Can't touch them, /GOD MODE ON. These jerks stalk them, and they take fame when it passes by. But mostly, they just hunt the defenseless, i know i was there once. Do you know how many times I hear, "there's so-and-so, easy kill, do it." That of course will happen as the haves and have-nots encounter each other.

My point is that I am unable to group with my friends in 80% of the games locations because SOE has branded me with a big red letter A. I can mentor, and God forbid if someone should come along, I have to stand there and watch a spam laughing emoting jerk cut my head off, as i bury my hands deep into my own nethers. Then my friends die, and they are saying "dude a lil help please?". "I can't, they won't let me because it would be unfair."

How many times has the word unfair been used when discussing this topic, often. Life is unfair, and pvp is unfair. This I recognize, but allowing one to lock their level, [Removed for Content] themselves out, and then not allowing those who worked hard (sometimes not so hard) to get to level 70 to be able to attack 90% of the servers populatoin is stifling. Will it be a grey slaughter? You bet, that hasn't seemed to hurt WoW one dang bit. ONE BILLION DOLLARS, lol, love that one.

Ultima Online had it right, they had no levels only skills, and everyone could attack everyone. However if you killed enough people that didn't fight back, your name became red (flagged as a murderer). For each kill over 8 (safe zone for accidents, lol) you would be flagged murderer for 8 hours per kill. Being flagged a murderer meant if you entered a city, guards would kill you on site. If you went to the bank there was a headhunter board. All those flagged as murders were on it, and the city offered cash for their heads (literally).

That would work great in this game, gank enough people who don't fight back and you are temporarily Joe Gankeriffic the Exiled, kos to guards everywhere. Or at least give no fame for killing those who do not fight back. A whole nother can of worms are the grey candybooties who see level 70's engaged, throw an encounterwide or two hoping to get a fame hit. They /thank and /laugh at me for getting them some fame, and my knuckles go whent white with anger. So I did all this leveling, I'm a god compared to a level 20, and it is UNFAIR to let me kill them. Ladies and gents I claim that it is unfair to allow a person to stop leveling so they can be 21 forever. Easy mode FTW.

LASTLY:

As guild leader of the aforementioned guild, I have heard it all. I've heard the twink horror stories, I've heard their likes and dislikes, and I made this post because it needs to happen. I like to watch trends, and you don't have to be a mathmatician to see our pvp populations are dwindling fast. Stop the bleeding before we are left exsanguinated. IMO you arent even your dang class till you get those three special spells that define you from level 52-58, and don't have a full toolset to work with until at least the early 30's. So i guess it is fun having like 15 combat arts and knowing there is no way for anyone to ever outgear you, because you already went to the instances that drop each piece that is best at your level range. So the best your opponent can hope for is to copy you, just what we need, mindless copies of each other fighting for table scraps.

This issue plus the complete lack of in game presence from devs is killing this game. Devs should be hosting events, handing out prizes, and bringing the players together. As it is, we have to go on the forums and try to talk three guilds into bringing their guys to fight over a tower, and there is no clear winner ever.

3 things i want, disable level locking on pvp servers (levellock=0 instead of 1), let me kill anyone so i can be a twink too, and get a GM to host SOMETHING. Will make my day when I see: All hail norrathians. Antonia Bayle will be hosting our monthy war of the worlds event. This month we will be handing out a mythical weapon to the winner of our T7 one on one competition. An extra guild bank TAB will be given to the winner of the guild six vs six event. Bring your best, forget all the smack talking, let's have a blast.

And as far as feedback for devs? Come to those fights, you'll quickly see who has the upperhand and who really should get nerfed. And if you want to be famous, lose the title and win an actual sanctioned event, you'll be on the cover of eq2players.

OTS: Fame is also killing this game. You had a fame system on blue servers. 500 pvp kills = hunter, 1000 = slayer, 2000 = destroyer. With this system, there is NO REASON TO RUN EVER. You may get a kill before you die......

Edit: Teila is actually at 1228 city kills. Yage is #2 with 960, and Riot is #4, all from bel vaka. Why so many city kills? Because after stalking every T7 zone and finding nothing, then standing in a high traffic area for over an hour and seeing nothing, we go to the source. Lately it seems to be the only pvp we can consistantly get. Some of you may have never been level 70 on blue or pvp, so I'll share this..... check out all my combat arts, woot.

T7 PvP Videos Bel Vaka Exiled http://files.filefront.com/7432163 Ackron solo video http://files.filefront.com/7404449

Download the video, preview is crap quality. Put the videos in their so you guys know that I'm not just talking out my butt. I know just about every major pvper on venekor, because we all leveled up together. When YOU hit level 60, I'll know it because I won't recognize your name. But Venekor has always been close like that, we have to be, otherwise there will be noone to kill. And I'm not transferring to lagafen so i can dodge x4's all day or join a guild that has the x4's. This game wasn't designed for raid pvp, unless you're filthy rich and can pull it off while still seeing spell effects.

StarryEyedElf · 06-16-2007, 10:29 AM

Please don't create another thread on this topic when there are already so many. I understand you want your points to be highlighted, and they are well put, but please join one of the MANY conversations in process. Further, do not create posts to any red name. They generally do not respond to them because if they respond to one calling them out, then they must reply to ALL. Then they wouldn't spend all of their time on the forums and not doing their jobs. But you CAN send Scott a PM. Thank you for understanding why I am closing this thread.

06-15-2007, 07:35 PM	#5
Amphibia Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,256	sprognak wrote: I actually like the open game idea more. Enlarge the "safe zones" around the cities and L10-20 zones. (All zones up to but EXCLUDING Antonica and Commonlands). After that, make PVP open season, tweak the fame system so a fame hit is given for killing greys who are not already engaged in PVP combat. /zips up in flame retardent suit... I think every solution to this problem will have lots of side effects. If lowbies were to lose fame to red cons, they would be camped and ganked to no end. This would kill low level PvP and effectively force everyone to get to 70 in a hurry. That may sound awesome for high level people who are sick and tired of standing at WW waiting for that bot to swing by.... but many subscriptions might get lost in the process. Personally I like the idea of open PvP, but rather without any fame loss for greys if they don't attack first. Let the level 70 player gain faction only, then the lowbie won't really lose anything by dying. Maybe also increase both XP and AA gain a little on PvP servers to make it easier for people to level up - combine this with no XP debt and maybe open PvP wouldn't be so bad. And then perhaps also add some more fun stuff in tier 7 that would make it much more desirable to level up than just staying locked in lower tiers. (PvP gear for level 70 only was actually a good idea in this regard.) The lack of interest in getting to 70 seems to be mainly a PvP server thing, btw. I never saw that on my old blue server... __________________

06-15-2007, 08:57 PM	#8
w1 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 45	Icculus@Venekor wrote: haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes. The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this: Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP). Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T. I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions. Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS. Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level. Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70. The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server. In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill. PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE. Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon. Whine more plz, k thanx. __________________

06-15-2007, 09:33 PM	#11
Daemondred Loremaster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 30	Icculus@Venekor wrote: haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes. The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this: Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP). Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T. I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions. Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS. Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level. Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70. The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server. In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill. PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE. Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon. Good post well written.

06-15-2007, 10:15 PM	#12
Ozgood Server: Vox Guild: Paradox Rank: Alternates Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 161	Very well written indeed. I would like to add a couple of points myself, if I may. If, you or someone of authority do decide to read this post, hopefully someone in here you will find something of use and implement it. As I said before, I like almost all the changes you have made and the tough decisions you have made in your effort to balance this game, continue it and somehow maintain a loyal paying customer base to pay for all the changes. So just so you know, I am not a critic, powergamer or what have you, just a paying customer since EQ1 launch. With that said: What is your target audience? Are you trying to get more subscribers or keep the ones you have? Don't answer that of course, but here is why I ask these questions: EQ2 started off to be an easier, non-EQ1, yet sharing the same name game. Whereas you used to have class, race restrictions and factions, EQ2 was more vanilla. As you said in an lengthy interview, (yes I read it) the Devs told you the game was boring and had no personality of it's own. EQ1 was what made it great and to not build off that success would be a mistake. So your team switched directions, made tough decisions and had one of the best PVE games on the market. Through voice acting, great graphics, in depth quests, you made it an immersive world. Then other games surfaced, all with PVE and PvP and became VERY profitable because anyone with a computer from Walmart could play them. EQ2, not so much, but getting better. Rather than give the entire history, I will stop there to get to my point. What is EQ2 supposed to be now; a PVE game with great graphics (which Vanguards are now better), an easy game that anyone can play (my 9 yo mastered HO's) a PvP game or a game for those with elite computer systems? I think you tryed to be all those things, did o.k., but never really owned a market share or was the best at anything. People have came and left because of this, just like in all MMOs, but people are not picking up this game as new customers and blown away by a refined, polished game. To be more concise, I think it is time that people truly understood their class roles and what they were designed to do. Somehow, a long time ago, someone came up with this T1, T2 DPS stuff and it was immediately cookie cuttered which classes did what. You didn't correct them. Nor did you change the class descriptions to better reflect WHY the changes that you have made and are making with this new GU. Those are the same descriptions from when the game launched. Tell people, customers, what your niche as a game is and what their niche as a class/race is. Who are designed to be raiders, solo'ers, utility so that when they sign on, they know what they are getting into. If you are trying to be a GREAT PVE game, then scrap this afterthought of a PvP system and focus on that. Allow Vanguard to be the PvP game of SOE's. A lot less headaches. If you are trying to be a PvP game as well as a PvE game, you have a great platform, but I never understood why you didn't use it. People get to 70, raid, raid, raid, then re-roll, twink and raid, raid on PVE servers, then /cancel. Time for something new. People on PVP servers, it's gank or get ganked, stay and become Gods and others just leave. PvP is a VIABLE market. Most of the successful, profitable games out there (Blizzard is making a BILLION a year off of WoW) have a PvP system. Make the PvP servers, FFA hardcore servers and let them loose, or give them a chance to transfer. I love the idea of slowing down PvP, great job there. But instead of having rules for this server and non-pvp servers and having to cater to two audiences, why not combine them? Why not re-market yourself as a PvP and PVE game? It would be a great way to get those new subscribers and give the old ones something to do that is new and fresh. How would it work? Freeport and Qeynos obviously share two different visions. You DESIGNED IT THAT WAY, even have RP servers where dwarf SKs roll with Ogre Pallies. This doesn't make any sense to me, but hey, we can't scrap the whole thing, so here is how it would work: Both Freeport and Qeynos are at war, which makes sense. Through some questing and proof of their loyalty, a toon COULD swear their allegiance and become part of the Royal Guard or Headhunters of Freeport. Once they DECIDE they wish to protect their homeland, they would be sent to specific zones, on a mission to do something or eradicate someone. No other way to be sent to a zone unless the Commander sends them, which would port them into an instance, monitored by VOLUME of players (so both sides were close to equal), and level. Once in the zone, which is a FREEP versus Q's FFA, you could not talk with the opposing faction, but PvP emotes could be added to convey general feelings. You could leave the zone at any time. Put this type of system on ALL servers. People will sign up for something like this, others won't. It gives them an option however. Those that did serve, who be given military titles, broker discounts, status reductions and even trophies and weapons indicating their valor in battle. No more, title keeping, status, perma gank, unfair battles, it would be based off player skill and their ability to work TOGETHER. Either way, you probably won't read this, I will probably get flamed, but my point is still that we need some idea of the direction of this game. People will quit over this GU, if they don't understand the bigger picture. Time to enlighten us. __________________ Ozgood Slaughters-SK Rhoellan Alts-Coercer Jett Black-Dirge Jiraiya Ero'Senin-Defiler Blackrain Silvermoon-Warlock Vox server Proud member of Paradox

06-15-2007, 10:22 PM	#13
Kay Server: Nagafen General Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6	I have to say, while I understand and agree w/ alot of what was said, I still like the ability to lock a character's level. Example: I have a level 70 fury on the nagafen server that is exiled. She is mostly a raiding toon, but I do try and pvp w/ her when i can. What ends up happening is endless hours of flying from one island to another in kos on those stupid little clouds. Then we try sinking sands, and it's now it's those carpets. And EoF is usually just a ghost town as far as t7 pvp. I hate sitting around a cloud platform waiting for someone to fly in, only to have them fly off as soon as they land. So instead, I have a little level 45 exiled dirge (not locked, but if i ever get to 50 i will most likely do so) that I use to pvp in the lower tier zones with. Enchanted Lands, OOLS, Feerott, Cazic-Thule, Everfrost - all these zones offer different challenges. You actually get to use your track to hunt down your enemies - rather than watch them fly into you. The whole environment is different and it kinda mixes it up a bit. It's kinda like taking a "break." So while i have to say that i feel bad for the person who is just starting out and getting roughed up a bunch, I still want the ability to keep my character at a low level to enjoy the lower zones. I think putting certain restrictions on level locked characters (like only getting so many aa's or whatever) sounds like a fair deal. Just my 2 cents on this whole issue. Kayah

06-15-2007, 06:01 PM	#1
Ackron Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 19	haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes. The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this: Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP). Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T. I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions. Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS. Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level. Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70. The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server. In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill. PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE. Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon.

06-15-2007, 06:22 PM	#2
sprogn General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Very well written. Completely agree with you. Unfortunately it ends up as almost a parallel game. You have the level locker twinks who want nothing else than to fight new players for easy ganks. Then you have the anti-level locker lockers, who lock 3-4 levels higher than the usual lockers to beat the lockers at their own game.... I actually like the open game idea more. Enlarge the "safe zones" around the cities and L10-20 zones. (All zones up to but EXCLUDING Antonica and Commonlands). After that, make PVP open season, tweak the fame system so a fame hit is given for killing greys who are not already engaged in PVP combat. /zips up in flame retardent suit... __________________

06-15-2007, 06:22 PM	#3
Zexxii Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 181	what would fix the twink problem, would be a con system that took into account gear and spells, but i'm sure that's nearly impossible to implement....

06-15-2007, 06:53 PM	#4
Hon General Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 86	Well written and it is true that the level lockers are hindering new players from joining the PvP servers. However, I've found that there is no perfect PvP system. If you take away the ability to disable combat XP, then people level too quickly and miss content. Right now GU 36 is trying to address your concern by limiting the number of AA people can get per level and by removing the XP debt. While I think the limited AA is okay, the removal of the XP debt is over kill. Why? Well people only suicide on the guards repeatedly so the level slower, and give more time to get AA's. With a cap on the number of AA per level, there won't be a need for guard suicide. Will GU 36 have an impact on the number of griefers? No. People grief because.... they can. Its human nature to be mean and selfish. Unlike in real life where the risk of prison is real, computer generated worlds have no consequences. Even if you opened up the level range, then you'd just have level 70's killing level 10's. I came from a PvP server on WoW, and that was the way it is. I'm sorry, but there is no easy way to stop this from happening. This game wasn't designed with PvP in mind.

06-15-2007, 08:42 PM	#6
Magius789 Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 580	Ackron once again very nice post and well worded, I only hope SOMEONE at SOE pays attention to it. Does anybody else think that the more expansions that come out and the higher our lvl cap gets the bigger these problems will become? People at 70 are bored because of no PvP, well when it goes to 80 we would need a certain % increase in our player base to try and have active PvP in most lvls. Eventually the lvl cap will get so high there will only be very limited amounts of PvP through all Tiers unless there is a HUGE spike in the player base. Am I making any sense? Also not letting 70's get anything from lowbies is a good idea, hopefully if something like this happened those people would decide to lvl because everytime someone in the caves shouts there are lvl lockers needlessly ganking people a 70 will come and scare them away. Then it happens so frequently they just decide to lvl anyway.

06-15-2007, 08:44 PM	#7
Krokous Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 239	agree, we want to see dev response on this! either give nobies much more master drops/good lvl 10 armors with resists or disable xp debt/turning combat xp off

06-15-2007, 08:59 PM	#9
dellaripa Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 195	I just don't get it. I have leveled several hatchlings up in the last few months, non twinked, non locked and all solo, and besides an occasional gank, it hasn't been a frustrating experience. I have also leveled up 1 level locked twink, and the only thing frustrating about that is there's always, and I mean always, people more twinked than me. The people who get frustrated the most are those that realize this. The problem with fundamental tweaking of the PVP system is that it WILL drive people away. Remember when they changed Antonica and Commonlands to +- 4 levels? That drove many people away. My friends list became empty. Another big change will do the same. The solution to ganking is simple. Level past it, or level slow enough to compete.

06-15-2007, 09:08 PM	#10
Magius789 Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 580	I love the people that say "k, thnxs" makes me feel like I'm back in middle school again or talking to my 13 year old niece.

06-15-2007, 11:53 PM	#14
Luxun Lord Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 64	I totally agree with the OP. Frankly the current cap of AAs is so useless, I mean my idea of twink was getting lvl 34 while having 55 AA, i wil lstill be able to do itwith the cap. People like to argue they level lock for the competition, I can see that, it is true because pvp so much more enjoyable in antonica, TS, Nek ect ...but anyoen that says they lvl lock in t2 or t3 for competition is talking out of his rear end. There is no competition in t2, some classes haven;t even gotten any of their major skills yet. My solution, just disable level lvl locking until lvl 25. Simple as that.

06-15-2007, 11:58 PM	#15
Daemondred Loremaster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 30	Luxun wrote: I totally agree with the OP. Frankly the current cap of AAs is so useless, I mean my idea of twink was getting lvl 34 while having 55 AA, i wil lstill be able to do itwith the cap. People like to argue they level lock for the competition, I can see that, it is true because pvp so much more enjoyable in antonica, TS, Nek ect ...but anyoen that says they lvl lock in t2 or t3 for competition is talking out of his rear end. There is no competition in t2, some classes haven;t even gotten any of their major skills yet. My solution, just disable level lvl locking until lvl 25. Simple as that. Agreed

06-16-2007, 01:35 AM	#16
DudeMan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 46	Icculus@Venekor wrote: haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes. The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this: Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP). That's a big assumption that someone went out and bought EQ2 just for PvP. Based on the number of PvP servers my guess is that the good majority of the money the are making is from the PvE guys. Now Sony gunning for the WoW subscription crowd, now that I can understand and that explains why they would want to make PvP as "easy" as possible. Show me someone that quits the game after being killed 5 times in a row and I'll show someone that would have never lasted on PvP server to begin with... Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T. No doubt that happens, but come on... Those guys are not representative of the PvP crowd on a whole. Most of us just like the thrill of a "real" opponent and could care less about a meaningless title. I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions. I confused. In the first sentence you say you are sick of "God mode cheats" and then you go to tell us how you can do the very thing you are sick of... If you can do all that in 8 hours, why can't the next guy? Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS. Upperhand yes, "masive upperhand", no. It doesn't matter how twinked you are, you will die to larger numbers, regardless (in some cases) of their levels. This is the real problem. Take out XP debt, level locking and AAs and players (new ones included) will still get crushed by drive-by gank squads. Taking debt and Level locking will not stop the twinks. As long as Sony allows more than one character slot per server and the rediculous amount of Plat farmers/sellers to continue, there will be twinks. Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level. Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70. If you don't think there are serious discrepancies in gear/AAs in a freshly dinged lvl 70 and a Fabled raid jacked 70, then you need to come out of the instances and try some T7 PvP... Dude, the difference here is way worse then a T2 twink compared to a MC and adept 3 T2 player. How would everyone being lvl 70 be better than what we have now? The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server. Hardcore players will be forced to level faster than your average player because there is no other way to effectively slow the game down other than xp debt and locking. So eventually all the people that play daily will be at T7 and all the new players will be spread throughout the levels. Again, how is this an improvement? Granted I run into twinks at times that eat my lunch, but given the choice I would rather have more people around to group up with and get revenge then be eternally LFG... As bad as T2 twinks appear to be, I do appreciate them helping me kill other twinks. In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill. PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE. Well it seems that we agree on something. That chit needs to stop immediately! Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon. __________________ Django - 70 Dirge/68 Tailor/100 Tinker Nagafen Jaco - 38 Buiser Nagafen Bireli - 28 Defiler/65 Jeweler/325 Transmuter Nagafen "A victory over Artifical Intelligence is an artifical victory." Play PvP!

06-16-2007, 02:45 AM	#17
CresentBlade Guardian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 756	Icculus@Venekor wrote: haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes. The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this: Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP). Joe however is 25, in college, and could really give a dang what the poor ole hubbards think. He just loves feeling like a god casting lightning bolts from the heavens. He goes to the leaderboards, and counts his kills, pats his back, and makes a video to post on the forums. Hooray, I killed a bunch of guys who had empty item slots! I'm l33T. I for one am sick and tired of SOE giving these guys God mode cheats. In eight hours of actual gameplay I can get a character to ANY level 1-35, fully mastercraft them and buy EVERY legenedary and fabled item on the broker (Qeynos AND Freeport). And I know after playing on this server since day FOUR im competant enough to beat the snot out of these newbs, equal level and all, but they don't want to fight me. They want poor defenseless players to kill over and over. They want blue and green players, it's like candy to them. Cowards i say, and using an exploit SOE put in place not realizing the reprecussions. Allowing characters to level lock on a pvp server allows them to gain such a massive upperhand that it becomes unbareable for new players, thus you lose accounts. Making this game attractive to all levels of gamer i would assume is a high priority, therefore you are currently shooting yourself in the foot. And the hardcore blue server guys get off their raid, and come on our pvp server with their level locked (i put hardly any work into this) toon and I CAN'T KILL THESE JERKS. Option 1: Go the world of warcraft route. Disable kill ranges. I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level. Option 2: Disable locking adventure xp on pvp servers only. This way, eventually everyone will end up at 70. The whole idea being that if our current userbase is spread accross 70 levels, and the level 10-25 twinks (twinks are massive geared level lockers) are discouraging new players from continuing their stay here. If everyone on the server was within ten levels of each other you would NEVER see a complaint of lack of pvp on any server. In addition, allowing people to transfer from venekor to naggy was a bad decision. We do have considerably more pvp than before, but the T7 community has dwindled. In effect, leveling to 70 is a bad thing on Venekor, because you may end up standing on whisperwind isle for an hour waiting on a plat farmer to kill. PPS. I dare any SOE developer to make a new character on Venekor. Before you reach level ten you will receive at least twenty tells from squiggly named individuals attempting to power level you or sell you plat. Most just buy the plat because it's the only way they will ever combat the twinked level locking jerks. But then again, you made it this way SOE. Mr. Hartsman, hit me up on ICQ or email soon, this needs to change soon. Very well written and to the point.

06-16-2007, 02:46 AM	#18
CresentBlade Guardian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 756	Zexxii@Nagafen wrote: what would fix the twink problem, would be a con system that took into account gear and spells, but i'm sure that's nearly impossible to implement.... Good suggestion, this might help.

06-16-2007, 02:51 AM	#19
CresentBlade Guardian Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 756	dellaripa wrote: I just don't get it. I have leveled several hatchlings up in the last few months, non twinked, non locked and all solo, and besides an occasional gank, it hasn't been a frustrating experience. I have also leveled up 1 level locked twink, and the only thing frustrating about that is there's always, and I mean always, people more twinked than me. The people who get frustrated the most are those that realize this. The problem with fundamental tweaking of the PVP system is that it WILL drive people away. Remember when they changed Antonica and Commonlands to +- 4 levels? That drove many people away. My friends list became empty. Another big change will do the same. The solution to ganking is simple. Level past it, or level slow enough to compete. You understand the game now and know what to expect brand new players think they will come try the game out and it will be fun. They just end up quitting because they cant do anything. Just remove locking it was NEVER intended for what it is being ABUSED for now. This is something that just became hard core in last couple of months.

06-16-2007, 03:02 AM	#20
Harbringer Doom Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 669	I personally will spend the next week making sure all these guys want to level, when my level 70 and friends convince them they should level. The irony in this statement is almost unbearable...

06-16-2007, 03:15 AM	#21
greploco Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 76	1) create a system by which people are assigned a rank/number/rating that reflects the quality of their gear, it's not real hard. neocron did this it it's low tech. just put it at the end of their name or something. 2) factor this rank/number/rating into pvp in a constructive way that encourages fights between more similarly ranked people

06-16-2007, 03:44 AM	#22
tiredang General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 169	Icculus@Venekor wrote: haven't been able to catch ya on ICQ lately, so here goes. The fundamental problem with increasing accounts on your pvp servers is this: Mom and dad put the kids to bed and say i want to try this game out. They make a character on Venekor or Nagafen, go to the island and have a blast. Then it happens, they hit level 10. For the past hour Dreadnaught Joe Gankeriffic has been sneaking around them, waiting for their birthday. He does the level lock smackdown on poor ole Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard. His legendary, mastercrafted, and fabled easily smash then newbs to a pulp, they look at each other and go, "That was sorta unfair". They respawn and say, what the heck, let's get some levels and we can kill that guy. However, Joe is just out of their site range, and eagerly awaiting an immunity timer countdown. They die five more times before giving up. They go to bed, and generally feel like they wasted their time. I give them three days tops before they cancel their subscription (if they in fact bought eq2 so they could PVP). Heh, Dreadnaught Joe isn't getting his fame from those fresh from the island noobs. Dreadnaught Joe is going out and looking for champions and other dreads to fight. It's fast-level charlie that's out there slaughtering mom and dad to feel leet because picking fights with old Joe,even though Joe is green to him as well, hurts his ego Edit: Of course, if Joe comes across mom and dad he may kill them, but they are NOT the ones he'd be farming. He just wants the faction to get his moss covered tunic so he can level to 20! __________________ Healing butt and taking names! Angelyc Sadist 21 Defiler/31 Weaponsmith Stacy Sadist 17 Fury/26 Sage Jaided Sadist the Exile 70 Warden/70 Sage

06-16-2007, 05:45 AM	#23
orehn Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Mom's Basement Posts: 56	Your post was well thought out and insightful, and so I will attempt to do the same. I feel I should first warn you that I do not share your opinion; that being said, I will pursue this topic as honestly and truthfully as you have been. I will be forthcoming with regards to the explanation of my opinion, and while I respect your right to disagree I can only ask that you in turn respect mine. What you and the entire 'anti' population need to understand is this-there is no way to stop new players from getting killed, no way at all. Debt can be disabled, AA's can be capped, locking can be taken off the PvP servers, and you could even open the level ranges up and you will still see an endless number of posts created by people fed up with dying. It's the nature of PvP, it's been a part of these games since the concept was introduced-in it's purest sense, PvP servers are an example of survival of the fittest at work. The strong overpower the weak and the weak are at times powerless to defend. Simply, albeit bluntly-that's life. In your first example, mom and dad decided to roll characters on a PvP server and got ganked a few times; it happens to all of us, even us evil twinks. Dreadnaught Joe had a fun time destroying them and they got discouraged and left, which while it may be bad for business in that SOE may have lost two customers, it was NOT bad for PvP. Bad newbies one day become bad highbies, either way their discouragement and departure is inevitable. It is a foregone conclusion that those who cannot handle dying in PvP will not last, I have friends who are great people but for whatever reason let all of this stuff get to them and no longer share Ventrilo with me each night. To be perfectly frank with you, I do not want mom and dad here. I don't want them in my group, I don't want them in my guild, I don't want to have to read about their difficult time in any of the public chat channels. There's a saying that fits in this case, 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen'. All of us went through this, whether you started on the server the night it opened or moments ago-I'm sure a few of us remember weeks of getting rolled by mentored high levels, the sense of dread one felt knowing there were always ten people camping a griffin tower, and the aforementioned necro swarm pet. Those hard times made all of us better at this game because it forced us to develop a think skin. By taking that "Training" away, all you're doing is prolonging mom and dad's experience until they've ultimately wasted hundreds of hours of their lives leveling up-who do you think is more upset and less likely to keep their subscription active, the person who quits after six days or the person who quits after six months? After six days an account has yet to even bill. All the changes in the world can be made and people who can't hack it will still quit. You can take away my AA's, you can take away my debt, you can even take away my right to lock my experience and I will STILL repeatedly kill the people who don't have the tenacity and thick skin needed to survive in this version of the virtual MMO world. Disable level ranges and things will be ten times worse-I'll simply log my 70 in and have an hour or two of fun a night in the newbie zones. Answer me this, how is that better? Sure, you'd be out there giving those dirty twinks a reason to level up on your beefcake level 70 toon, but in the meantime I've just made mom and dad delete their new characters by showing them what Inspiration really is. Since the advent of PvP in the online world, people have died. Sure, new players come along who can't deal with the hardships of being on their guard at all times; and those players either learn the ropes and adapt, or they go back to Butcherblock where they probably belong. If that isn't enough for you, if you can't sleep at night because the thought of some poor new player getting ganked is too unbearable, then perhaps you take this just a little too seriously. After all is said and done, mom and dad were bound to leave the server if they couldn't hack PvP. Let me just be straightforward and candid here, a PvP server isn't really for the folks, now is it? __________________ <3leo-lbb

06-16-2007, 08:10 AM	#24
Eybietie Custom Avatar Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 799	aren´t there enough threads regarding this topic? you can leave scott a msg on icq even if he is offline btw

06-16-2007, 09:26 AM	#25
Ackron Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 19	ok after reading the responses on Venekor forum and here, I have this to say: My main was Ackron. I ran Bel Vaka as guild leader, and took her to #4 worldwide for most kills per member. My wife Teila is the number one killer on venekor with 11,000 kills and number one worldwide for city kills with over 1,100. So far I've seen at least a handful of twinks who have replied to this thread with less than a thousand kills. Bravo you haven't killed that many people, and the ones you did kill came easy. My new main is Icculus. I got him for level 1-60 in 3 days /played. 911 kills, 162 city, 21 days old now. I FREAKIN PVP. So leveling fast isn't a problem, sure 1-60 in 3 days is hella fast (72 hours of gaming). But if one wanted to level it's available. Now the meat and potatoes. I have three friends from my first person shooter clan that recently joined. They started in Neriak and have been trying to just group with each other and level a little. After getting ganked raw for two days straight three of my level 70 friends mentored them and got em to 25 in about an hour or two. I can't afford to twink my friends each level till 70 so they don't get owned, and more importantly, I CAN'T DO A [I cannot control my vocabulary] THING ABOUT THE LEVEL LOCKERS. Can't touch them, /GOD MODE ON. These jerks stalk them, and they take fame when it passes by. But mostly, they just hunt the defenseless, i know i was there once. Do you know how many times I hear, "there's so-and-so, easy kill, do it." That of course will happen as the haves and have-nots encounter each other. My point is that I am unable to group with my friends in 80% of the games locations because SOE has branded me with a big red letter A. I can mentor, and God forbid if someone should come along, I have to stand there and watch a spam laughing emoting jerk cut my head off, as i bury my hands deep into my own nethers. Then my friends die, and they are saying "dude a lil help please?". "I can't, they won't let me because it would be unfair." How many times has the word unfair been used when discussing this topic, often. Life is unfair, and pvp is unfair. This I recognize, but allowing one to lock their level, [Removed for Content] themselves out, and then not allowing those who worked hard (sometimes not so hard) to get to level 70 to be able to attack 90% of the servers populatoin is stifling. Will it be a grey slaughter? You bet, that hasn't seemed to hurt WoW one dang bit. ONE BILLION DOLLARS, lol, love that one. Ultima Online had it right, they had no levels only skills, and everyone could attack everyone. However if you killed enough people that didn't fight back, your name became red (flagged as a murderer). For each kill over 8 (safe zone for accidents, lol) you would be flagged murderer for 8 hours per kill. Being flagged a murderer meant if you entered a city, guards would kill you on site. If you went to the bank there was a headhunter board. All those flagged as murders were on it, and the city offered cash for their heads (literally). That would work great in this game, gank enough people who don't fight back and you are temporarily Joe Gankeriffic the Exiled, kos to guards everywhere. Or at least give no fame for killing those who do not fight back. A whole nother can of worms are the grey candybooties who see level 70's engaged, throw an encounterwide or two hoping to get a fame hit. They /thank and /laugh at me for getting them some fame, and my knuckles go whent white with anger. So I did all this leveling, I'm a god compared to a level 20, and it is UNFAIR to let me kill them. Ladies and gents I claim that it is unfair to allow a person to stop leveling so they can be 21 forever. Easy mode FTW. LASTLY: As guild leader of the aforementioned guild, I have heard it all. I've heard the twink horror stories, I've heard their likes and dislikes, and I made this post because it needs to happen. I like to watch trends, and you don't have to be a mathmatician to see our pvp populations are dwindling fast. Stop the bleeding before we are left exsanguinated. IMO you arent even your dang class till you get those three special spells that define you from level 52-58, and don't have a full toolset to work with until at least the early 30's. So i guess it is fun having like 15 combat arts and knowing there is no way for anyone to ever outgear you, because you already went to the instances that drop each piece that is best at your level range. So the best your opponent can hope for is to copy you, just what we need, mindless copies of each other fighting for table scraps. This issue plus the complete lack of in game presence from devs is killing this game. Devs should be hosting events, handing out prizes, and bringing the players together. As it is, we have to go on the forums and try to talk three guilds into bringing their guys to fight over a tower, and there is no clear winner ever. 3 things i want, disable level locking on pvp servers (levellock=0 instead of 1), let me kill anyone so i can be a twink too, and get a GM to host SOMETHING. Will make my day when I see: All hail norrathians. Antonia Bayle will be hosting our monthy war of the worlds event. This month we will be handing out a mythical weapon to the winner of our T7 one on one competition. An extra guild bank TAB will be given to the winner of the guild six vs six event. Bring your best, forget all the smack talking, let's have a blast. And as far as feedback for devs? Come to those fights, you'll quickly see who has the upperhand and who really should get nerfed. And if you want to be famous, lose the title and win an actual sanctioned event, you'll be on the cover of eq2players. OTS: Fame is also killing this game. You had a fame system on blue servers. 500 pvp kills = hunter, 1000 = slayer, 2000 = destroyer. With this system, there is NO REASON TO RUN EVER. You may get a kill before you die...... Edit: Teila is actually at 1228 city kills. Yage is #2 with 960, and Riot is #4, all from bel vaka. Why so many city kills? Because after stalking every T7 zone and finding nothing, then standing in a high traffic area for over an hour and seeing nothing, we go to the source. Lately it seems to be the only pvp we can consistantly get. Some of you may have never been level 70 on blue or pvp, so I'll share this..... check out all my combat arts, woot. T7 PvP Videos Bel Vaka Exiled http://files.filefront.com/7432163 Ackron solo video http://files.filefront.com/7404449 Download the video, preview is crap quality. Put the videos in their so you guys know that I'm not just talking out my butt. I know just about every major pvper on venekor, because we all leveled up together. When YOU hit level 60, I'll know it because I won't recognize your name. But Venekor has always been close like that, we have to be, otherwise there will be noone to kill. And I'm not transferring to lagafen so i can dodge x4's all day or join a guild that has the x4's. This game wasn't designed for raid pvp, unless you're filthy rich and can pull it off while still seeing spell effects.

06-16-2007, 10:29 AM	#26
StarryEyedElf Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Right behind you. Posts: 195	Please don't create another thread on this topic when there are already so many. I understand you want your points to be highlighted, and they are well put, but please join one of the MANY conversations in process. Further, do not create posts to any red name. They generally do not respond to them because if they respond to one calling them out, then they must reply to ALL. Then they wouldn't spend all of their time on the forums and not doing their jobs. But you CAN send Scott a PM. Thank you for understanding why I am closing this thread. __________________