When does the Dirge become fun?

[Findical]

I am only a level 20 Dirge right now but I'm not sure if I want to keep leveling. It seems like Dirges only have to put up their songs before battle, not during. To me this ruins the whole purpose of a bard class. I don't want to just put up some songs then auto attack and hit a couple debuffs.  I would like to actually play music during the battle. So in later levels do Dirges have a wide variety of songs to choose from and attacks that are more bard like? And please don't say "Maybe playing a Bard isn't for you." Because actually I think it is too much for me that I am wanting a real bard class, not some pre-fight buffer.

[Dialock]

Sorry...select buffs needed for group, debuff mobs during fight, and mash CA's.  that's a dirge.

[Findical]

Meh I guess I picked the wrong class then. Thanks.

[Borias]

I think you're looking for the EQ1 bard.  That game you had to hit a new song every 3 seconds...every single 3 seconds.....for the rest of your life.

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

There's nothing particularly musical about button-mashing in any form, I'm afraid.  Well, it can get a bit rhythmic, but given refresh timers and the somewhat chaotic nature of my hotbars, it's more like a composition by a music-theory grad student circa. 2007 scored for violin, trombone, tympani, concertina, and Waring three-speed blender than it is Chopin. 

That being said, combat in Dirgeville is busy and highly tactical.  We have the general debuff songs, which are bardlike in that they affect the entire audience, er, enemy group much the same as the losing entrant in a junior-high Battle of the Bands.  There's really not a moment that you're just sitting there waiting for something to happen like the triangle-player in a symphony orchestra.  We have specialized debuffs, sometimes combined with attacks, which have to be done in the right order and in the right way to maximize the impact.  It's a lot like making any set-list.  If you put the ballad about the heroic dwarven defense of Stormhold against the undead legions right after the madrigal about the Koada-dal paladin and the lady troll, it falls flat as a long-dead flounder.  Turn 'em around and the audience screams, shouts, and throws underwear at the stage, though that last bit isn't a plus in most of the places I play. the management takes the Hazmat fees out of my tips.  Same thing with our songs, give or take an Iksar jockstrap. 

What, exactly, were you hoping for, my dear?  It's not clear to me what you'd consider musical and bard-like. 

Whysprr

[thecynic315]

At level 65 you will have TWO short term songs, one a buff one a health transfer. By 58 you will have all of your CAs/Attack Spells. By 52 you will have 8 group buffs(that take a con slot) and 1 self buff(also con taking). By 35 you will have 4 group debuffs to choose from, and somewhere between 51-70 the 4th becomes usless. By 54 you will have 2 Rezes To say 'BARD LIKE' is hard in EQ2 but lets use the term Dirge Like or Dirgyness,  to me anyway Dirges spit anger and disease overtime. By 58 you will have 1 melee DOT attack, 1 timebomb (lanets), 1 AOE DOT Timebomb, and 1 stealth back-stab DOT Timebomb. In addation several of our attacks have a short term debuff to go with them, which do that some strategy to use propperly at the right time. Now the bad news, of the 9 Buffs we get that take a con slot,  they were created by Ron Poppille You just SET IT AND FORGET IT!!!!!! I think there is a split on that issuess wether the buffs should all be Set and Forget or if we need more powerfull short term buffs so that we are more active. Well there ya go for more info on our instanty please /join guk.dirges Quick edit to say I've always found my dirge to be fun, which hed have to be seeing as its my only real toon.

[LiquidFlex]

Whysprr@Kithicor wrote:

There's nothing particularly musical about button-mashing in any form, I'm afraid.  Well, it can get a bit rhythmic, but given refresh timers and the somewhat chaotic nature of my hotbars, it's more like a composition by a music-theory grad student circa. 2007 scored for violin, trombone, tympani, concertina, and Waring three-speed blender than it is Chopin. 

Brilliant!!  /clap

[thecynic315]

WAYYYYYY OFF TOPIC Whysprr@Kithicor wrote:

There's nothing particularly musical about button-mashing.......

Wait so my mad phat skillz wit da drum machine aint musikal? DISCLAIMER----- I do not nor have I ever owned, used, or seen upclose a drum machine.  Also using one makes you have even less talent then Mr. Starsky showed when playing Being For the Benifit of Mr. Kite

[Findical]

Well I guess I mean more like the FFXI bard. I don't mean I want to actually participate in the compositions of the music, rather I want to be active doing "bard stuff" while in combat. But I do understand that the Bard is a hybrid class and not just made for songs. I just don't think the Dirge really fits into a Bard role. Actually the Dirge doesn't really fit the lore of a Dirge at all. A dirge shouldn't be "buffing its allies" since it is about mourning and sadness. It would be more logical for them to have songs like when your party members receive damage they have counter damage or receive some hp/power back. The combat rez spell does fit the Dirge nicely although. To me it is just SoE's sad attempt at distinguishing Dirges from Troubadours. Any class can debuff, but a debuff for a Dirge should not be from a CA. I don't know if that made any sense. I just think I am too much of a bard lover for this class.

[Topan]

I would say there is quite a bit of rhythm to our CA timers, most are 10s and 20s (and our HO timer at 5s is huge) so I mean you can work them into different combinations to get the maximum use out of them (and be clicking each shortly after refreshing). I mean there isn't much to the music of a bard other then pre-fight buffing and the 58 ancient teaching is an in fight buff, but without much experience playing other classes the Dirge does seem like a very rhythmic character (though I admit I haven't played much of other classes to say that they dont share this trait, it may just be inherent to how sony chose to set up all classes reuse timers). Anyway yea the implementation of the bard classes in this game isn't all that similar to how they work in other games, for better or worse.  I personally enjoy playing the eq2 dirge.

[MadTexan3]

Findical wrote:

 I just think I am too much of a bard lover for this class.

Or maybe you're just too fixated on how bards work in FFXI?

[Hannalynn]

Findical wrote:

To me it is just SoE's sad attempt at distinguishing Dirges from Troubadours. Any class can debuff, but a debuff for a Dirge should not be from a CA.

Actually, the debuffs and such are not Combat Arts, they are songs (spells). They are not listed in the CA section, they are in the spells section. When you use them, you see your char singing, or playing an instrument. I think the Dirges are pretty awesome, and their songs and CA's do reflect a Dirgish attitude.

[knorah]

LiquidFlex wrote:

Whysprr@Kithicor wrote:

There's nothing particularly musical about button-mashing in any form, I'm afraid.  Well, it can get a bit rhythmic, but given refresh timers and the somewhat chaotic nature of my hotbars, it's more like a composition by a music-theory grad student circa. 2007 scored for violin, trombone, tympani, concertina, and Waring three-speed blender than it is Chopin. 

Brilliant!!  /clap

/agree! That was great Whysprr!

[Fromingo]

Aelestar@Lucan DLere wrote:

Findical wrote:

 I just think I am too much of a bard lover for this class.

Or maybe you're just too fixated on how bards work in FFXI?

Or maybe the dirge in EQ2 is more a buffbot than a bard?  Seriously there's no music creation,  no instruments,  the "Set It and Forget It"  quote was right on the money.   Even the animations are kind of lame when I think back to seeing my EQ1 bard friends running around playing flutes, drums, lutes and horns.   I suppose I could spam my Dirge's buffs to see instruments...  I also remember bards, from other genre, having all kinds of odd/fun abilities,  not so much here. 

[Whysprr_Wyrd]

Fromingo wrote:

Or maybe the dirge in EQ2 is more a buffbot than a bard?  Seriously there's no music creation,  no instruments,  the "Set It and Forget It"  quote was right on the money.   Even the animations are kind of lame when I think back to seeing my EQ1 bard friends running around playing flutes, drums, lutes and horns.   I suppose I could spam my Dirge's buffs to see instruments...  I also remember bards, from other genre, having all kinds of odd/fun abilities,  not so much here. 

A lot of us thoughtful, tactical types really grind our teeth at the term 'buffbot'.  The fact that you can get modest benefit from a dirge in 'bot mode doesn't mean that that's the way to get real contribution from one.  I bet you could call a wizard a 'dpsbot' if you were willing to macro the two biggest nukes and throw 'em once per battle. 

I'd certainly prefer more interesting animations.  I don't buy the 'dirges shouldn't buff' notion, there are all sorts of historical / fictional cultures and groups that take inspiration from basically grim, downer material; think the Spartans, or the Rohirrim at the battle of the Pelennor fields shouting 'Death!' as they rode to battle after the fall of Theoden.  War isn't pretty or sweet or nice or even glorious, it's dirty and bloody and horrible.  The soldiers in Vietnam, to all accounts, didn't go for the Beach Boys when they rode into combat. 

What sort of thing would you like to see?  What would actually be 'bard-like' in your opinion? Specifically, not in vague terms, and pretend we haven't played whatever game you're comparing EQ2 to, because I certainly haven't. 

Whysprr

[Dagator]

Not to re-iterate what Whysp said above, but the amount you play or the amount of actions that you do during battle is completely up to you.  Any class can be a buff/dps bot really.  Personally, when I play my dirge, I am probably one of the busiest toons in an entire raid, because I am trying to maximise my dps, provide all the unique abilities, and help everyone else out.  I don't get to rest my dirge unless I run out of power, which never really happens.  We have our problems and issues, and we have been largely ignored, but you shouldn't come into the forums after only playing up to lvl 20 or so and say that EQ2 dirges are not bards and are buffbots, as that appears to be pretty premature. 

[Findical]

Hmm looks like I hit a string with a certain few of you. Well in my idea of what a bard is, if it really matters, cannot be explained through EQ2 terms. Nothing against this game, I just do not think it has certain elements that can truly make a bard a bard. Like no morale, no courage/stamina bar, things of that sort which could make a class like a troub useful in a bardlike way. One thing that humiliates any bard class is the lack of equiptable instruments. Now you could just use the excuse of bards being poets, but even in that case you would have to role play to make that case true. I do not think players should be forced to pretend that they are playing a bard. 3 second cast timers repeated until your conc bar is used up isn't quite different then any other buffing class. On my defiler I buff the group, buff me, then buff tank to use 6/6 conc. How is this quite different then a bard other then the fact that bards pretend that their buffs are songs. If the bard had to continue to play the music to keep the buff in effect then it would make a little more sense. I guess I'm just frustrated with mmo cookie cutter classes. You cannot make 24 classes adhere to the basic concepts of auto attack, casting bars, timed attacks, consistent DPS, and power usage. Otherwise you will have 24 classes that really are minor variations of four. In any case on my defiler I am sure to invite a dirge or troub whenever possible. They fill a spot in my groups nicely. *Edit* No one likes to be ignorant, but it would take a lot of my time to play a class 40+ when there is a high chance that I would not enjoy it and reroll. If that is what it takes for me to be able to express my opinion then I truly apologize.

[Fromingo]

Whysprr@Kithicor wrote:

A lot of us thoughtful, tactical types really grind our teeth at the term 'buffbot'.  The fact that you can get modest benefit from a dirge in 'bot mode doesn't mean that that's the way to get real contribution from one.  I bet you could call a wizard a 'dpsbot' if you were willing to macro the two biggest nukes and throw 'em once per battle.

Very true.  Just so I'm clear on what 'bot mode' means though.   I'm not talking some macro program that basically lets you run on autopilot.  Any class can be done that way, as countless farmers/botters have proven.   What I mean is, as an EQ2 bard, you can often just go AFK on /fol and people will most likely not notice for quite awhile (more likely to happen in raids than groups).  The biggest thing that they might notice is "where's my COB?" or if there's a lot of deaths and you're not rezzing.   You really can't do that with most of the other classes.   They will notice AFK healers, DPS classes or any MT/ST or DPS tank. 

I have a good friend who loves bards and it's almost always his first choice of character types to play in P&P and MMO games.    He has played a bard in EQ1 and a Troub in EQ2.  In EQ1 he was always praised for his mad twisting skills.  Best bard twister I ever saw.  People loved his twisting and you know they were just buffs but people noticed they were missing because they were not taken for granted.  Plus he could do other things a lot better like croud control and even fun little things like mob positioning or FD.     His troub in EQ2?  Nothing outstanding.  He can reach high DPS numbers, for a troub, but they are still pathetic compared to everyone else and rarely make the parse.   No one says  "oh great job keeping those 5 buffs up!"  because they are almost always up.  So eventually he backburnered his 70 Troub out of boredom and frustration... months later I did the same with my Dirge.     He tried to love his troub but it just never fully felt like a bard to him.  To me that's sad.

We do contribute to raids and groups and are  useful.   Just not in a very exciting way and much of it can be done without any effort.

[Topan]

Fromingo wrote:

We do contribute to raids and groups and are  useful.   Just not in a very exciting way and much of it can be done without any effort.

Other then being the tank or maybe off tank for really intense fights, what makes playing another class more exciting?  I mean if you play a dps class its the same thing as a bard only the orange number over the mobs head are bigger.  If you play a healer the numbers are green and over the MT's head instead of the mobs'. Bard's a strong class that brings alot of utility to the table, they dont parse high, but they serve their role the same as everyone else.  Again other then the rare wipe-saving play by a pair of healers or picking up a loose mob as an off tank and successfully saving your raid, there isnt much that stands out to me as being overly exciting about clicking buttons.  What's exciting about the game is overcoming challenging encounters and knowing you played your class, whatever it may be, at a high enough level to contribute to that accomplishment.

[firza]

NOTHING,

in ANY new MMO will be able to reach the amount of skill needed to play a bard well in EQ1.

Thats just the way it is. the EQ1 bard was unique in many ways. (used to be unique in even more ways). You needed to have skill, patience and discipline to play one well. Nowadays MMO's are more mechanically based. Without game breaking mechanisms. The whiners have won....unique = overpowered /blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa lets ballance the game.

[Life777form]

I had macros for all my song twisting...sure took skill.

[Fromingo]

Topanga@Everfrost wrote:

Other then being the tank or maybe off tank for really intense fights, what makes playing another class more exciting?  I mean if you play a dps class its the same thing as a bard only the orange number over the mobs head are bigger.  If you play a healer the numbers are green and over the MT's head instead of the mobs'.

Trust me for healers it's way more than the green numbers are over the MT's head instead of the mob. You are constantly looking for people getting whacked by AE's, or who get aggro or are killing them selves with some AA so that they can do some uber DPS/heal. You are also constantly looking for whoever needs cures and trying to do that all while healing and trying to do DPS. As a warden I don't have debuffs but some healers have huge debuffs so they add that into everything I mentioned above. The healer is the most intensive class I have played.

Tanks who have a role are also intensive. Trying to grab and hold aggro off mobs, adds, using whatever tricks they have to stay alive and keep their DPS up. They usually have to worry about special abilities of the mobs more because they almost always effect them (no jousting/ranged for them). Tanks who have no role and are just there to DPS well yeah that's probably boring button mashing.

DPS classes. If they are good, they have learned balance and know how to reach their upper limits of DPS potential without drawing aggro too often off the tank. Caster DPS classes have some often needed utility like mana shards/hearts or cures to name a few. Many of our casters are tasked for curing so they are often curing accross raid groups depending on who calls out in raid or voice. The melee DPS are often having to joust, watch their aggro, sneak in their debuffs and may be on add search for some encounters. They are probably the least intensive and if the mobs have no special abilities I can see them being button mashers.

Bards are much like the the melee DPS without the DPS. They really don't have to switch out their buffs that often. Most of their debuffs last a long time and have long ranges so they don't have to worry about them quite as much, Dirges can rez but if they don't a some other class usually steps up, Dirges get 1 heal that might help but isn't missed usually. COB might get missed. On hard fights they need to concentrate a bit more and on easy fights they really can just kick back.  Bards don't get to try and unload increased DPS like most of the other classes can when they don't have to do other things. (for example healers who don't have to heal go full DPS usually and often some of them can make some impressive parses.

The running joke during raids is if the Dirge makes the parse it's because the DPS slacked so he/guild usually teases with something like "[I cannot control my vocabulary], I know you guys are slacking when the dirge makes the parse!".

Oh and having those orange numbers bigger would be more exciting during trash.  At least they could do what the other DPS classes do and have little DPS/parse wars.   They would never make the top 5 but they might make the top 10 once in awhile and compete with the healers/tanks who usually bounce around there.   

[Dagator]

Well if the dirges are running jokes in your raids, don't take them.  See your dps drop, or better yet, bring paladins to rez your dead when needed.  To be honest, you would probably like the Vanguard bard, and that game is part of your station account...

[Raveller]

Findical wrote:

Hmm looks like I hit a string with a certain few of you. Well in my idea of what a bard is, if it really matters, cannot be explained through EQ2 terms. Nothing against this game, I just do not think it has certain elements that can truly make a bard a bard. Like no morale, no courage/stamina bar, things of that sort which could make a class like a troub useful in a bardlike way. One thing that humiliates any bard class is the lack of equiptable instruments. Now you could just use the excuse of bards being poets, but even in that case you would have to role play to make that case true. I do not think players should be forced to pretend that they are playing a bard. 3 second cast timers repeated until your conc bar is used up isn't quite different then any other buffing class. On my defiler I buff the group, buff me, then buff tank to use 6/6 conc. How is this quite different then a bard other then the fact that bards pretend that their buffs are songs. If the bard had to continue to play the music to keep the buff in effect then it would make a little more sense. I guess I'm just frustrated with mmo cookie cutter classes. You cannot make 24 classes adhere to the basic concepts of auto attack, casting bars, timed attacks, consistent DPS, and power usage. Otherwise you will have 24 classes that really are minor variations of four. In any case on my defiler I am sure to invite a dirge or troub whenever possible. They fill a spot in my groups nicely. *Edit* No one likes to be ignorant, but it would take a lot of my time to play a class 40+ when there is a high chance that I would not enjoy it and reroll. If that is what it takes for me to be able to express my opinion then I truly apologize.

Your problem is that somewhere along the way you've picked up this notion that Bards are studio musicians. They're not and never have been in any game where playing a bard class was worth playing a bard class.

[Fromingo]

Dagator wrote:

Well if the dirges are running jokes in your raids, don't take them.  See your dps drop, or better yet, bring paladins to rez your dead when needed.  To be honest, you would probably like the Vanguard bard, and that game is part of your station account...

haha still missing the point.  I know dirges bring DPS to others, so do inquis and fury and enchanters and mystics and ... well you get the idea.   The point is if SOE gave dirges a DPS boost to bing them in line with brawlers, zerkers, inquis, ect(which is not a lot since they are a scout class that USED to out DPS all these classes) then they'd have more to do and be a more enjoyable class.   Right now they toss in their long duration debuffs, and just click COB when it's up.  Maybe they do a rez/heal once in while.   After that their DPS sucks so that they rarely make the parse on their best days.  Right now almost every other class is enjoying being able to push to see where they fall on the DPS parse, heal parse or both.   Even the other so called 'utility' classes like illusionist/coercers frequently make the DPS parse.  There's really no reason to have bards (scouts) have their DPS stop advancing at the same pace all the other classes do.

[Topan]

The difference of 4 bards parsing or auto follow buffing is going to be in the range of 4-5k damage... its the difference between 25-30k rw parses and 30-35k rw parses. If you have/are a bard that doesn't try to do damage and you have 3 like-minded bards in your raid force you're gimping your raid force of roughly 1/6-1/7th of its potential output. I don't see what the issue is- cast buffs, help your raid force, rezz dead people, put up the best numbers you can, and stop complaining. Also next tier I do realize there will be some issues with our damage spells all being old tier, but considering the large portion of the raiding bard community has realized this it seems like Sony should also, and should implement measures to see that we're kept on track dps wise. Right now I really don't see us as underpowered.

[Leety]

I started at launch and left right afrer DoF came out.  I came back jsut recently after someone on the SK boards for EQ1 told me about the changes, and I love it.  I have a high level high end raiding SK in EQ1, and I have my Dirge here.  Since I have been back I have gone from 32 to 41 before my deployment started, and love almost every minute on my Dirge.  I have a friend that I always play with, who went from 29 to 42 in the same time on his SK, and just the two of us are able to do all sorts of stuff.  We recently completed almost all the lower half of Steamfont (a few heroic quests that we can't duo) and are still loving it. The Dirge was never a dull moment for me.  I love everything about it.  I did leave for a bit, but not because of the class--it was a combination of the lack of friends (they all went to WoW) and the older game mechanics that have been changed. Maybe Dirge is not up your alley?  Have you tried any other classes?

[Winterborne]

Well I think I understand with what the OP is saying, and I agree that the Dirge maybe lacks that attention-grabbing rock star quality, and is more like the behind the scenes roadie making everyone else look good, occasionally playing Stairway to Heaven during the sound checks. But with the game mechanic as it is, I'm not sure there's much they could do to change that. I haven't raided, but playing in groups I don't just set and forget my buff line and put myself on auto-follow while I watch everyone else. I'm throwing down encounter debuffs, single target debuffs, some CA's and spells. I'll position around and do a flank shot, or shoot a couple arrows, or steath and scout ahead, track something down, unlock chests, whatever. I'd hardly say my dirge life is a snooze-fest. That comment about trying a Vanguard bard is a good one. Their system is truly unique and you'd probably get a kick out of it.

[Giland]

I have 2 lvl 70 toons. A zerker with about 63 AAs, and a ranger with 100 AAs. I raid with both. With the zerker, if you are not MT/MA, you are just dead weight. If I go into DPS mode (use my AoE abilities, juggernaut, etc) I can put up some pretty decent numbers up to the point I get killed for getting agro. Of course I live a bit longer when I pull agro thanks to the plate, but unless I get my group healer to heal me, I die just the same.  Then I strut back casting my buffs, all proud of my dps while I lived. "see me pull agro off the main tank on the two off mobs? yeah, I kick butt!" Wish I had something useful to spend AAs in in regards to EOF so I actually had incentive to get 100 AAs. Currently, I have 7 points in regen. [Removed for Content] ?? With my ranger, when the call comes to buff up, I cast my 1 group buff. Pathfinding. YAY ! everyone in my group runs 16% faster!. Unless of course I spent points in the aa, then it is up to 46% faster. Thats it, my group buff. 2 conc slots taken at 70. I am a buff machine! I love helping my group survive, or at least run back to the point of wipe faster now. Oh yeah, I do have another CA that effects someone else. I can shoot the mob with an arrow, and the very next char that hits him, gets more agro. As a ranger, the ONLY thing I bring to a raid is faster running back in case of wipe, and DPS. Don't think that run buff gets me in the raid. Lets not talk about poisons and arrow cost. Some folks complain about the cost of repairing their fabled gear, I cry at the thought of having to refill my quiver from empty. I taunt the raid leader with tells saying "we are wiping, evacing now !" They don't see the amusement. I am raising up a dirge. Man, by lvl 18 I think I had more "songs" that I could have active at any one time! Sure, I don't kill things as fast as say a ranger or a swash (another alt I am trying) of the same level, but geez,  I can BS the mob to death with all the crap I throw at it. DPS is a bit lower, but I have more to do than snare, run, hit ranged combat art, run, snare, run some more, snare resists, die. I feel like a troll shaman-FROSTSHOCK ! Lovin the dirge. I went dirge specifically for the dps buff. Troub has haste, and everyone has haste. Plus, always being a melee char, I don't want to help out those dang mages in any way, shape, or form. DPS BUFF BABY ! yeah ! Guildies are sending me tells "dude, give you 50 gold to be in my group" Ok, that is a lie, but dang it, they should, I have a DPS BUFF BABY ! I am like the ice cream man, I got product for everyone !

[MadTexan3]

EDIT: Nevermind, not worth a response.