A constructive idea on fixing Drag/Hook arrow

Bozidar · 05-01-2007, 07:15 PM

Ok, i'm not sure all agree, but i think many here might agree that those two abilities are broken for pvp. They allow you to not only control a character in a way that makes them move, but also in ways where you have VERY good control over where they get moved to.

In my humble opinion, these two abilities should carry with them a timer, similar to what happens when you charm someone in pvp. Example:

Qeynosian player X is flying into the TS station in ant. Let's say they're a noob, and don't realize that every freep and their sister is there. They land.. and start to get ganked.. and run... and a coercer or bard lands a charm on them. When that player dies while charmed, none of the players attacking them will get any credit for that kill, because they're charmed.

I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed.

Flame on... SMILEY

treebouncer · 05-01-2007, 08:12 PM

someone wasnt to bright and got to close the the qeynos entrance with a ranger there. on a more constructive note, nerf every ability that doesnt let me get away from someone i dont want to fight. root, stun, snare etc etc

Cocytus · 05-01-2007, 11:52 PM

This abilities don't need a change.

Don't fight near aggro mobs that will kill you, problem solved.

Bozidar · 05-02-2007, 12:31 AM

treebouncer wrote:

someone wasnt to bright and got to close the the qeynos entrance with a ranger there. on a more constructive note, nerf every ability that doesnt let me get away from someone i dont want to fight. root, stun, snare etc etc

first of all, no.. i haven't been hookshot in a very long time, nor ever dragged.

I just think that these two abilities are unlike any other pvp abilities, and are unbalanced..

loveybutt · 05-02-2007, 01:34 AM

Bozidar wrote:

treebouncer wrote:
someone wasnt to bright and got to close the the qeynos entrance with a ranger there. on a more constructive note, nerf every ability that doesnt let me get away from someone i dont want to fight. root, stun, snare etc etc
first of all, no.. i haven't been hookshot in a very long time, nor ever dragged.
I just think that these two abilities are unlike any other pvp abilities, and are unbalanced..

i think people overreact with these two abilities. its true they suck, but theres lots of abilites that suck if oure on the recieving end.. the only thing i see getting changed is maybe an immunity or something so ya cant get chain-dragged across the zone

Mildavyn · 05-02-2007, 01:53 AM

Wrong Thread

Ameniel · 05-02-2007, 11:12 AM

FFS drag lasts only 5 sec and its a min and half reuse...thats now op for pvp? wow...let's forget about all the truly op stuff regarding t7 and focus on drag & hook arrow...

MokiCh · 05-02-2007, 11:39 AM

Hook arrow doens't even work half the time. Our ranger gets "you failed to hook your target" messages constantly when using it and is considering speccing out of that line

Mutant · 05-02-2007, 11:48 AM

Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback. umm .... these things control you too. So lets nerf them all, because I got pwned once by someone using it. Seriously though i've been using hook for a few days now on my lowbie, and yea its broke in pvp I wish they would fix it. Because half the time in never pulls them even on people that dont have nature walk on. It will do damage but not pull them. Or they can parry and dodge it pretty easy if they are any level above you, and you have to be standing still and facing them directly.

Even a gimped bard can control someone better then I can control with hook arrow half the time, as they kite, ranged + snare from any angle while running.

If anything hook gives me a laugh as I pull twinks into the guards that are trying to grief noobs in the caves. (if it works) To sum it up: - Dont grief noobs near guards. - Hook and drag are an addition to the list of (Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback) - The more creative and fun abilities in this game the better, so what you get owned a few times, laugh it off.

Norrsken · 05-02-2007, 12:00 PM

soruevol wrote:

Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback. umm .... these things control you too. So lets nerf them all, because I got pwned once by someone using it. Seriously though i've been using hook for a few days now on my lowbie, and yea its broke in pvp I wish they would fix it. Because half the time in never pulls them even on people that dont have nature walk on. It will do damage but not pull them. Or they can parry and dodge it pretty easy if they are any level above you, and you have to be standing still and facing them directly.
Even a gimped bard can control someone better then I can control with hook arrow half the time, as they kite, ranged + snare from any angle while running.
If anything hook gives me a laugh as I pull twinks into the guards that are trying to grief noobs in the caves. (if it works) To sum it up: - Dont grief noobs near guards. - Hook and drag are an addition to the list of (Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback) - The more creative and fun abilities in this game the better, so what you get owned a few times, laugh it off.

How is rift a CC? I know of the others, but what do rift do that is different from the others? And also, dont forget daze, as lame as it may be. SMILEY

artophwar · 05-02-2007, 12:11 PM

Nothing wrong with hook but drag... I mean come on the ability is way overpowered. It would be a perfectly fine ability if it was on any other class but a brawler. The simple fact is at any point while fighting a bruiser he can just decide what the hell ill just win by dragging him into mobs and dropping fd. Group vs. Group action and the only thing the bruiser is trying to do is drag the healer or mt into some PvE action. That IMO is an exploit just like FD training was before they fixed how mobs reset after encounters were broken. A quick fix would be to make PvE mobs have a 15-30sec cool down before they actually reset and agro other players. This would give anyone dragged into PvE mobs a chance to actually get out of agro radius instead of just automatically picking up mobs when the bruiser fds.

Rattfa · 05-02-2007, 12:16 PM

artophwar wrote:

Nothing wrong with hook but drag... I mean come on the ability is way overpowered. It would be a perfectly fine ability if it was on any other class but a brawler. The simple fact is at any point while fighting a bruiser he can just decide what the hell ill just win by dragging him into mobs and dropping fd. Group vs. Group action and the only thing the bruiser is trying to do is drag the healer or mt into some PvE action. That IMO is an exploit just like FD training was before they fixed how mobs reset after encounters were broken. A quick fix would be to make PvE mobs have a 15-30sec cool down before they actually reset and agro other players. This would give anyone dragged into PvE mobs a chance to actually get out of agro radius instead of just automatically picking up mobs when the bruiser fds.

Good tactic IMO Just find another tactic to keep the bruiser busy in a group v group environment and your healer will be fine. Learn and adapt. No need to cry nerf. Not overpowered. SMILEY

Dak · 05-02-2007, 12:45 PM

Lol, stupid xp locking noobs.

Norrsken · 05-02-2007, 01:07 PM

Dakis@Nagafen wrote:

Lol, stupid xp locking noobs.

Does that mean that both drag and hook arrow goes away magically once you hit 70? Odd. And btw, 70 is just like any other level in regards to pvp, except you cant get attacked by people several levels your senior. Bah, noob lvl. SMILEY

Captain Apple Darkberry · 05-02-2007, 01:36 PM

Bozidar wrote:

Ok, i'm not sure all agree, but i think many here might agree that those two abilities are broken for pvp. They allow you to not only control a character in a way that makes them move, but also in ways where you have VERY good control over where they get moved to.
In my humble opinion, these two abilities should carry with them a timer, similar to what happens when you charm someone in pvp. Example:
Qeynosian player X is flying into the TS station in ant. Let's say they're a noob, and don't realize that every freep and their sister is there. They land.. and start to get ganked.. and run... and a coercer or bard lands a charm on them. When that player dies while charmed, none of the players attacking them will get any credit for that kill, because they're charmed.
I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed.
Flame on...

No offence, but it seems that every week you call for something to be nerfed...

Given that... ...the thing that needs to be nerfed is your ability to post.

Do you want us to end up with a game where the only real distinction between toons is their race?

Wait... ...let me guess, we need to nerf races too, as some are smaller and thus harder to target... =/

JadzeaDax · 05-02-2007, 02:28 PM

Captain Apple Darkberry wrote:

Wait... ...let me guess, we need to nerf races too, as some are smaller and thus harder to target... =/

Nerf halflings!

Oh wait.

SMILEY

Xova · 05-02-2007, 04:40 PM

Bozidar wrote:

I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed.
Flame on...

I think people are focusing too much on this as being "yet another nerf thread" and not enough on the suggestion that was made, which doesn't seem like a nerf at all. What the OP is suggesting is to treat those abilities like a charm in PvP, so that if a player dies while under the effects of Drag or Hookshot, their attackers do not get credit for the kill. Honestly I think that's a fair solution, though if it were implemented, it would probably also need to extend to Fear effects as well.

Beyond that, I don't know enough about either ability to really offer an alternative solution since I don't play either class. I've never been Hookshotted, and I've been killed by Drag once where I really couldn't do anything except watch as three players dragged me away from my group and ganked the daylights out of me. What I would be curious to hear about is if there is anyway to resist or "cure" the effect so that once you are being dragged or hookshotted, you or a groupmate can get you out of it. I think that would be more constructive than people suggesting the OP's posting ability be nerfed or otherwise flaming the proposal, and would do more for the argument against "nerfing" the ability. SMILEY

tass · 05-02-2007, 05:00 PM

lol so what are we up to now. Ok people have asked for the nerf of the kook lines, of the reach lines, of the in combat runspeed lines (I think thats with rangers and furies) uh the engard or whatever thing it is lines, has sow been asked to be nerfed? Well it probably will, uh manaburn has been asked to be a nerf. Anything else im missing or what we can ask for next?

shalom · 05-02-2007, 06:35 PM

I don't know about drag, so I'll only speak to HookArrow...

Are you really calling for a nerf of a RANGER ability that pulls the target RIGHT NEXT TO HIM?

I've only played a ranger to high40's, but as a ranger, I'm much happier if my opponent is some distance away (prefereably with his back to me). Having someone right on top of me makes life harder, not easier. Maybe at T7, having a ranger's opponent close is an advantage, but my guess is not.

Yes, there are special occasions where pulling someone off a griff tower, or out of healing range is helpful BUT...

1. As someone pointed out HookArrow fails to move the target often.

2. If HookArrow is a 'charm' so is fear, root, etc.

Its a special ability, which under special circumstances is ideal; but those are few and mostly avoidable. My guess is the OP got HookArrowed into a guard, lost fame and/or title and wants to keep gankin greenies with impunity.

Bozidar · 05-03-2007, 10:07 AM

Captain Apple Darkberry wrote:

No offence, but it seems that every week you call for something to be nerfed...

Uhm... nope. You must have me confused with someone else. I have, in the past, expressed ideas to improve the game as a whole, but rarely do i call for a nerf. Even in this circumstance.. maybe you call this asking for a nerf.. Eh. Maybe it is. More than anything i'd just like someone to tell us "Working as intended" or "We're looking at this, roll on the test server and /feedback". If they choose to add the "charm" mechanic to it, maybe an immunity timer to it, you could leave the effect in the game just fine.

Captain Apple Darkberry wrote:

Do you want us to end up with a game where the only real distinction between toons is their race?

I'm fine with distinction between classes. We had distiction pre-eof.. and we have plenty more of it post-eof. But now there are abilities out there that control the movement of other players, and the distance, AND the direction.

My team went roaming CL last night, looking for gankers to kill, as is our norm. Only team around (even numbers, they were yellow/orange to all of us) zoned into an instance and called home. So we went to ant. Couldn't find anyone except a bot group with a lvl 50 who grouped with them as soon as a player came near by (we still killed them). So, in desperate need of faction, went to the caves as our last resort.

We kill a few newbs, clear the names out, and are about to go when new blood shows up. These guys are *gasp* titled players. Maybe they're going to get a group, and fight us, right?!?! Uhm.. no. One of them came in, dropped immunity fast, and hook-shot one of my guys before i could warn them to get out of there.

In the end there were 4 players that came in. Two swashies that tried to get us to run after them and jump into the water near the guard, and two rangers who stayed:

1) on top of the tent next to the guard

2) On top of the ramp by the guard.

Want to take a guess what they would have done if we'd let them get close enough to hook us again? Yep.. chain-hook to the guards.

I'm sure there are dozens of stories about how drag has been used to wipe groups, screw up raids ect. No previous abilitie in lower tier pvp has ever had this much power over a player. You can root a guy, you can stun a guy, you can fear him, mez him, charm him... but you could never drag him half-way across a dungeon onto a guard to do your killing for you.

I honestly think that the devs put these abilities in the game w/o serious regard for their effects on pvp. I honestly think they should take another look at it. If it's intended.. so be it, i'll continue to avoid it as much as possible. If it's not intended.. well, I think it should carry an immunity timer as said above, so that you can't be double-hooked or triple-hooked. I think we should be told what the resistance ability is against this, because it's the new harm touch that can be gotten at level 12 or so, instead of 20...so if we're going to have to combat against it we should be informed how.

Bozidar · 05-03-2007, 10:09 AM

Xova wrote:

Bozidar wrote:
I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed.
Flame on...
I think people are focusing too much on this as being "yet another nerf thread" and not enough on the suggestion that was made, which doesn't seem like a nerf at all. What the OP is suggesting is to treat those abilities like a charm in PvP, so that if a player dies while under the effects of Drag or Hookshot, their attackers do not get credit for the kill. Honestly I think that's a fair solution, though if it were implemented, it would probably also need to extend to Fear effects as well.
Beyond that, I don't know enough about either ability to really offer an alternative solution since I don't play either class. I've never been Hookshotted, and I've been killed by Drag once where I really couldn't do anything except watch as three players dragged me away from my group and ganked the daylights out of me. What I would be curious to hear about is if there is anyway to resist or "cure" the effect so that once you are being dragged or hookshotted, you or a groupmate can get you out of it. I think that would be more constructive than people suggesting the OP's posting ability be nerfed or otherwise flaming the proposal, and would do more for the argument against "nerfing" the ability.

Thanks Xova SMILEY

Can always rely on you to be reasonable and open minded. SMILEY

Bozidar · 05-03-2007, 10:16 AM

shalom wrote:

I don't know about drag, so I'll only speak to HookArrow...
Are you really calling for a nerf of a RANGER ability that pulls the target RIGHT NEXT TO HIM?
I've only played a ranger to high40's, but as a ranger, I'm much happier if my opponent is some distance away (prefereably with his back to me). Having someone right on top of me makes life harder, not easier. Maybe at T7, having a ranger's opponent close is an advantage, but my guess is not.
Yes, there are special occasions where pulling someone off a griff tower, or out of healing range is helpful BUT...
1. As someone pointed out HookArrow fails to move the target often.
2. If HookArrow is a 'charm' so is fear, root, etc.
Its a special ability, which under special circumstances is ideal; but those are few and mostly avoidable. My guess is the OP got HookArrowed into a guard, lost fame and/or title and wants to keep gankin greenies with impunity.

Yes, i'm asking them to take a look at it. Please stop making assumptions about me.. I know how to avoid hookarrow, and when i'm forced to combat near a guard, i remain very aware of what players are nearby and what abilities they have. I have not been hook-arrow'd for fame since i was dragged from about half way to the Claymore monument in Ant, to the guards an NQG in the silliest chain you've ever seen. And that was quite some time ago..

Regardless of your experience, this ability can be used in a way like charm where you can control the distance AND direction that another player travels... and JUST like a charm, it also has a chance to be resisted or fail. Fear and root do not control distance, root does not move them at all, and does not prevent them from immediately curing it. If, as Xova said, you think fear should carry a similar charm timer -- so be it. I'm fine with it.

When a player get's credit for hooking or draging another player onto a mob, the way you can charm someone onto one... I think that, as Charm works, they shouldn't get credit. I think the devs should take a closer look at this diversity they've added, and a longer consideration on their effects in pvp.

Xova · 05-03-2007, 02:42 PM

Bozidar wrote:

Thanks Xova Can always rely on you to be reasonable and open minded.

Anytime! It's what I do. SMILEY

ZhouYu · 05-03-2007, 03:00 PM

Why don't they just make drag a one itme use ability with immunity and reuse time like some people have suggested ? make it line a fear or a stun. just drag TO the player using it, and thatsit, free movement after that. Make it so it works opposite way of the teleport ability bruisers get.

Anyway what would have been a smart wayto implent drag was to give it to a class that can rez and make the ability usable on friendly corpses only. Like it was used in SWG, so healers could drag dead corpses from a range and rez them at a safe location.

Sometimes I really wonder if the DEVs even test htings out before going live with them.

Xova · 05-03-2007, 03:59 PM

ZhouYu wrote:

Why don't they just make drag a one itme use ability with immunity and reuse time like some people have suggested ? make it line a fear or a stun. just drag TO the player using it, and thatsit, free movement after that. Make it so it works opposite way of the teleport ability bruisers get.
Anyway what would have been a smart wayto implent drag was to give it to a class that can rez and make the ability usable on friendly corpses only. Like it was used in SWG, so healers could drag dead corpses from a range and rez them at a safe location.
Sometimes I really wonder if the DEVs even test htings out before going live with them.

Yes! Give me drag ability on corpses lke I used to have as a Medic in SWG. /cry

Taldier · 05-03-2007, 05:10 PM

ZhouYu wrote:

Why don't they just make drag a one itme use ability with immunity and reuse time like some people have suggested ? make it line a fear or a stun. just drag TO the player using it, and thatsit, free movement after that. Make it so it works opposite way of the teleport ability bruisers get.

That would be completly altering the ability. Essentially just giving bruisers hook arrow (which doesnt make any sense for a bruiser, how can I pull someone from 30 ft away) instead of drag. Not to mention the fact that it would make drag essentially worthless in pve.

As it is now a bruiser has to actually get right up to the target to drag them. If a group cant kill, or at least in some way incapacitate the bruiser (mez, charm, root, etc) while hes right next to them you deserve to have one of your members dragged away and beat up.

Also I've heard drag can be cured...not sure which cure it is, can someone verify this?

Drag has a legimate purpose of allowing a bruiser to seperate one target out of a group of targets. If your being dragged into agro mobs, sure thats lame but 1. if the bruiser fails fd hes screwed 2. dont fight people right next to an agro mob in the first place, what if someone feared or knocked you into them, same effect your dead (this is essentially the same idea as "dont fight next to a tall cliff if you dont have safe fall" or "dont fight underwater if you cant breathe" duh)

As to the comparison of drag to charm...while charmed you are essentially the pet of the person charming you, and therefore unable to defend yourself. While being dragged you can fight back (heck theoretically you could even kill the bruiser while hes dragging you). Therefore imo drag is even less of a contol effect then mez, stifle, stun, and fear. It does not remotely compare to charming someone. The only reason that being charmed makes you not lose anything for dying is that it has essentially turned you into an npc, this is not true of any other ability.

Ameniel · 05-03-2007, 05:28 PM

Taldier wrote:

As to the comparison of drag to charm...while charmed you are essentially the pet of the person charming you, and therefore unable to defend yourself. While being dragged you can fight back (heck theoretically you could even kill the bruiser while hes dragging you). Therefore imo drag is even less of a contol effect then mez, stifle, stun, and fear. It does not remotely compare to charming someone. The only reason that being charmed makes you not lose anything for dying is that it has essentially turned you into an npc, this is not true of any other ability.

QFE

Bozidar · 05-03-2007, 06:10 PM

As i've said, drag isn't something i have experience with. I'm not sure it can be cured by the person being dragged, as you're moving, and iirc cure spells and potions can not be cast "on the run". As a caster, how are you going to fight back against a bruiser dragging you? Wand him to death? (and i mean melee attack)

With hookshot, there is no way to counteract it. We aren't aware of any resists to build against it, or even avoidance. We have no way to cure it, have no immunity to it, and have no charm-like protection from it.

Taldier · 05-03-2007, 06:27 PM

Are you talking solo or group pvp? If your a caster in a group and you get dragged your tank should be taunting the bruiser. Sure you have to follow them around but they ain't hitting you either. If your a solo squishy caster and a bruiser is close enough to drag you, you probably wont be alive much longer anyway.

As for hookshot, I really don't see the big deal. People complaining about rangers who get you closer to them? Only place this matters is in t2/t3 pvp when stupid people stand within spitting distance of an enemy guard.

Regardless neither of them do anything similar to charm. Perhaps you could put an immunity on it similar to root, but this would only make a difference if there was a full group of bruisers/rangers chain dragging/hookshotting you across a zone (which would be hilarious).

Xova · 05-03-2007, 06:33 PM

Bozidar wrote:

As i've said, drag isn't something i have experience with. I'm not sure it can be cured by the person being dragged, as you're moving, and iirc cure spells and potions can not be cast "on the run". As a caster, how are you going to fight back against a bruiser dragging you? Wand him to death? (and i mean melee attack)
With hookshot, there is no way to counteract it. We aren't aware of any resists to build against it, or even avoidance. We have no way to cure it, have no immunity to it, and have no charm-like protection from it.

This is a good point - as a caster class, I have no way to "fight back" against being Dragged since we cannot cast on the move. In my particular case I was following my group to the clouds when the enemy group landed with me targeted, and dragged me away from the platform. Was far too fast for my group to even see what happened thanks to the rendering issues at cloud stations.

Fortunately as a Freeporter I don't fight bruisers too often - just a handful of Exiled ones - but that one time was enough that I will stay far away from those bruisers should I run into them again. Now, make it so I can cast my spells on the fly, and I'll happily get close enough again. SMILEY

05-02-2007, 12:31 AM	#4
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	treebouncer wrote: someone wasnt to bright and got to close the the qeynos entrance with a ranger there. on a more constructive note, nerf every ability that doesnt let me get away from someone i dont want to fight. root, stun, snare etc etc first of all, no.. i haven't been hookshot in a very long time, nor ever dragged. I just think that these two abilities are unlike any other pvp abilities, and are unbalanced..

05-02-2007, 01:34 AM	#5
loveybutt Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 86	Bozidar wrote: treebouncer wrote: someone wasnt to bright and got to close the the qeynos entrance with a ranger there. on a more constructive note, nerf every ability that doesnt let me get away from someone i dont want to fight. root, stun, snare etc etc first of all, no.. i haven't been hookshot in a very long time, nor ever dragged. I just think that these two abilities are unlike any other pvp abilities, and are unbalanced.. i think people overreact with these two abilities. its true they suck, but theres lots of abilites that suck if oure on the recieving end.. the only thing i see getting changed is maybe an immunity or something so ya cant get chain-dragged across the zone __________________

05-02-2007, 01:53 AM	#6
Mildavyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,301	Wrong Thread __________________ Paikis, Troubador Ashk, Guardian Sslyth, Necromancer Mirbolt, Shadowknight Mildayvin, Assasin Verminius, Defiler

05-02-2007, 11:12 AM	#7
Ameniel Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 304	FFS drag lasts only 5 sec and its a min and half reuse...thats now op for pvp? wow...let's forget about all the truly op stuff regarding t7 and focus on drag & hook arrow... __________________ Ameniel, Bruiser of Venekor(Retired) Sabal, Brigand of Venekor Narade, Ranger of Nagafen Offense, Troubadour of Nagafen It's all about the strategerie

05-02-2007, 11:39 AM	#8
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Hook arrow doens't even work half the time. Our ranger gets "you failed to hook your target" messages constantly when using it and is considering speccing out of that line __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

05-01-2007, 07:15 PM	#1
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	Ok, i'm not sure all agree, but i think many here might agree that those two abilities are broken for pvp. They allow you to not only control a character in a way that makes them move, but also in ways where you have VERY good control over where they get moved to. In my humble opinion, these two abilities should carry with them a timer, similar to what happens when you charm someone in pvp. Example: Qeynosian player X is flying into the TS station in ant. Let's say they're a noob, and don't realize that every freep and their sister is there. They land.. and start to get ganked.. and run... and a coercer or bard lands a charm on them. When that player dies while charmed, none of the players attacking them will get any credit for that kill, because they're charmed. I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed. Flame on...

05-01-2007, 08:12 PM	#2
treebouncer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 81	someone wasnt to bright and got to close the the qeynos entrance with a ranger there. on a more constructive note, nerf every ability that doesnt let me get away from someone i dont want to fight. root, stun, snare etc etc

05-01-2007, 11:52 PM	#3
Cocytus Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,908	This abilities don't need a change. Don't fight near aggro mobs that will kill you, problem solved.

05-02-2007, 11:48 AM	#9
Mutant Server: Venekor Guild: Malice Rank: Pledge of Malice -- 0-1k Lord Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 56	Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback. umm .... these things control you too. So lets nerf them all, because I got pwned once by someone using it. Seriously though i've been using hook for a few days now on my lowbie, and yea its broke in pvp I wish they would fix it. Because half the time in never pulls them even on people that dont have nature walk on. It will do damage but not pull them. Or they can parry and dodge it pretty easy if they are any level above you, and you have to be standing still and facing them directly. Even a gimped bard can control someone better then I can control with hook arrow half the time, as they kite, ranged + snare from any angle while running. If anything hook gives me a laugh as I pull twinks into the guards that are trying to grief noobs in the caves. (if it works) To sum it up: - Dont grief noobs near guards. - Hook and drag are an addition to the list of (Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback) - The more creative and fun abilities in this game the better, so what you get owned a few times, laugh it off.

05-02-2007, 12:00 PM	#10
Norrsken Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,450	soruevol wrote: Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback. umm .... these things control you too. So lets nerf them all, because I got pwned once by someone using it. Seriously though i've been using hook for a few days now on my lowbie, and yea its broke in pvp I wish they would fix it. Because half the time in never pulls them even on people that dont have nature walk on. It will do damage but not pull them. Or they can parry and dodge it pretty easy if they are any level above you, and you have to be standing still and facing them directly. Even a gimped bard can control someone better then I can control with hook arrow half the time, as they kite, ranged + snare from any angle while running. If anything hook gives me a laugh as I pull twinks into the guards that are trying to grief noobs in the caves. (if it works) To sum it up: - Dont grief noobs near guards. - Hook and drag are an addition to the list of (Root, snare, fear, stun, stifle, mez, charm, teleport, rift, knockback) - The more creative and fun abilities in this game the better, so what you get owned a few times, laugh it off. How is rift a CC? I know of the others, but what do rift do that is different from the others? And also, dont forget daze, as lame as it may be. __________________

05-02-2007, 12:11 PM	#11
artophwar Lord Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 50	Nothing wrong with hook but drag... I mean come on the ability is way overpowered. It would be a perfectly fine ability if it was on any other class but a brawler. The simple fact is at any point while fighting a bruiser he can just decide what the hell ill just win by dragging him into mobs and dropping fd. Group vs. Group action and the only thing the bruiser is trying to do is drag the healer or mt into some PvE action. That IMO is an exploit just like FD training was before they fixed how mobs reset after encounters were broken. A quick fix would be to make PvE mobs have a 15-30sec cool down before they actually reset and agro other players. This would give anyone dragged into PvE mobs a chance to actually get out of agro radius instead of just automatically picking up mobs when the bruiser fds.

05-02-2007, 12:16 PM	#12
Rattfa Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Friends And Family General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,083	artophwar wrote: Nothing wrong with hook but drag... I mean come on the ability is way overpowered. It would be a perfectly fine ability if it was on any other class but a brawler. The simple fact is at any point while fighting a bruiser he can just decide what the hell ill just win by dragging him into mobs and dropping fd. Group vs. Group action and the only thing the bruiser is trying to do is drag the healer or mt into some PvE action. That IMO is an exploit just like FD training was before they fixed how mobs reset after encounters were broken. A quick fix would be to make PvE mobs have a 15-30sec cool down before they actually reset and agro other players. This would give anyone dragged into PvE mobs a chance to actually get out of agro radius instead of just automatically picking up mobs when the bruiser fds. Good tactic IMO Just find another tactic to keep the bruiser busy in a group v group environment and your healer will be fine. Learn and adapt. No need to cry nerf. Not overpowered. __________________ Squeeeek, 80 Brigand - Nagafen Rattface, 80 Fury - Nagafen

05-02-2007, 12:45 PM	#13
Dak General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 80	Lol, stupid xp locking noobs.

05-02-2007, 01:07 PM	#14
Norrsken Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,450	Dakis@Nagafen wrote: Lol, stupid xp locking noobs. Does that mean that both drag and hook arrow goes away magically once you hit 70? Odd. And btw, 70 is just like any other level in regards to pvp, except you cant get attacked by people several levels your senior. Bah, noob lvl. __________________

05-02-2007, 01:36 PM	#15
Captain Apple Darkberry Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 394	Bozidar wrote: Ok, i'm not sure all agree, but i think many here might agree that those two abilities are broken for pvp. They allow you to not only control a character in a way that makes them move, but also in ways where you have VERY good control over where they get moved to. In my humble opinion, these two abilities should carry with them a timer, similar to what happens when you charm someone in pvp. Example: Qeynosian player X is flying into the TS station in ant. Let's say they're a noob, and don't realize that every freep and their sister is there. They land.. and start to get ganked.. and run... and a coercer or bard lands a charm on them. When that player dies while charmed, none of the players attacking them will get any credit for that kill, because they're charmed. I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed. Flame on... No offence, but it seems that every week you call for something to be nerfed... Given that... ...the thing that needs to be nerfed is your ability to post. Do you want us to end up with a game where the only real distinction between toons is their race? Wait... ...let me guess, we need to nerf races too, as some are smaller and thus harder to target... =/

05-02-2007, 02:28 PM	#16
JadzeaDax Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston, MA, USA Posts: 69	Captain Apple Darkberry wrote: Wait... ...let me guess, we need to nerf races too, as some are smaller and thus harder to target... =/ Nerf halflings! Oh wait. __________________

05-02-2007, 04:40 PM	#17
Xova Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 509	Bozidar wrote: I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed. Flame on... I think people are focusing too much on this as being "yet another nerf thread" and not enough on the suggestion that was made, which doesn't seem like a nerf at all. What the OP is suggesting is to treat those abilities like a charm in PvP, so that if a player dies while under the effects of Drag or Hookshot, their attackers do not get credit for the kill. Honestly I think that's a fair solution, though if it were implemented, it would probably also need to extend to Fear effects as well. Beyond that, I don't know enough about either ability to really offer an alternative solution since I don't play either class. I've never been Hookshotted, and I've been killed by Drag once where I really couldn't do anything except watch as three players dragged me away from my group and ganked the daylights out of me. What I would be curious to hear about is if there is anyway to resist or "cure" the effect so that once you are being dragged or hookshotted, you or a groupmate can get you out of it. I think that would be more constructive than people suggesting the OP's posting ability be nerfed or otherwise flaming the proposal, and would do more for the argument against "nerfing" the ability.

05-02-2007, 05:00 PM	#18
tass Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,097	lol so what are we up to now. Ok people have asked for the nerf of the kook lines, of the reach lines, of the in combat runspeed lines (I think thats with rangers and furies) uh the engard or whatever thing it is lines, has sow been asked to be nerfed? Well it probably will, uh manaburn has been asked to be a nerf. Anything else im missing or what we can ask for next?

05-02-2007, 06:35 PM	#19
shalom Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 76	I don't know about drag, so I'll only speak to HookArrow... Are you really calling for a nerf of a RANGER ability that pulls the target RIGHT NEXT TO HIM? I've only played a ranger to high40's, but as a ranger, I'm much happier if my opponent is some distance away (prefereably with his back to me). Having someone right on top of me makes life harder, not easier. Maybe at T7, having a ranger's opponent close is an advantage, but my guess is not. Yes, there are special occasions where pulling someone off a griff tower, or out of healing range is helpful BUT... 1. As someone pointed out HookArrow fails to move the target often. 2. If HookArrow is a 'charm' so is fear, root, etc. Its a special ability, which under special circumstances is ideal; but those are few and mostly avoidable. My guess is the OP got HookArrowed into a guard, lost fame and/or title and wants to keep gankin greenies with impunity. __________________ Dev's who don't fix one-shot-pets should have no chairs....

05-03-2007, 10:07 AM	#20
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	Captain Apple Darkberry wrote: No offence, but it seems that every week you call for something to be nerfed... Uhm... nope. You must have me confused with someone else. I have, in the past, expressed ideas to improve the game as a whole, but rarely do i call for a nerf. Even in this circumstance.. maybe you call this asking for a nerf.. Eh. Maybe it is. More than anything i'd just like someone to tell us "Working as intended" or "We're looking at this, roll on the test server and /feedback". If they choose to add the "charm" mechanic to it, maybe an immunity timer to it, you could leave the effect in the game just fine. Captain Apple Darkberry wrote: Do you want us to end up with a game where the only real distinction between toons is their race? I'm fine with distinction between classes. We had distiction pre-eof.. and we have plenty more of it post-eof. But now there are abilities out there that control the movement of other players, and the distance, AND the direction. My team went roaming CL last night, looking for gankers to kill, as is our norm. Only team around (even numbers, they were yellow/orange to all of us) zoned into an instance and called home. So we went to ant. Couldn't find anyone except a bot group with a lvl 50 who grouped with them as soon as a player came near by (we still killed them). So, in desperate need of faction, went to the caves as our last resort. We kill a few newbs, clear the names out, and are about to go when new blood shows up. These guys are gasp titled players. Maybe they're going to get a group, and fight us, right?!?! Uhm.. no. One of them came in, dropped immunity fast, and hook-shot one of my guys before i could warn them to get out of there. In the end there were 4 players that came in. Two swashies that tried to get us to run after them and jump into the water near the guard, and two rangers who stayed: 1) on top of the tent next to the guard 2) On top of the ramp by the guard. Want to take a guess what they would have done if we'd let them get close enough to hook us again? Yep.. chain-hook to the guards. I'm sure there are dozens of stories about how drag has been used to wipe groups, screw up raids ect. No previous abilitie in lower tier pvp has ever had this much power over a player. You can root a guy, you can stun a guy, you can fear him, mez him, charm him... but you could never drag him half-way across a dungeon onto a guard to do your killing for you. I honestly think that the devs put these abilities in the game w/o serious regard for their effects on pvp. I honestly think they should take another look at it. If it's intended.. so be it, i'll continue to avoid it as much as possible. If it's not intended.. well, I think it should carry an immunity timer as said above, so that you can't be double-hooked or triple-hooked. I think we should be told what the resistance ability is against this, because it's the new harm touch that can be gotten at level 12 or so, instead of 20...so if we're going to have to combat against it we should be informed how.

05-03-2007, 10:09 AM	#21
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	Xova wrote: Bozidar wrote: I suggest that these two new AAs also carry the same effect. You can leave their mechanic in the game, but as an easy solution consider it a charm and carry a timer on it after the fact. As it stands today I believe they are unsuited to pvp, and should be fixed. Flame on... I think people are focusing too much on this as being "yet another nerf thread" and not enough on the suggestion that was made, which doesn't seem like a nerf at all. What the OP is suggesting is to treat those abilities like a charm in PvP, so that if a player dies while under the effects of Drag or Hookshot, their attackers do not get credit for the kill. Honestly I think that's a fair solution, though if it were implemented, it would probably also need to extend to Fear effects as well. Beyond that, I don't know enough about either ability to really offer an alternative solution since I don't play either class. I've never been Hookshotted, and I've been killed by Drag once where I really couldn't do anything except watch as three players dragged me away from my group and ganked the daylights out of me. What I would be curious to hear about is if there is anyway to resist or "cure" the effect so that once you are being dragged or hookshotted, you or a groupmate can get you out of it. I think that would be more constructive than people suggesting the OP's posting ability be nerfed or otherwise flaming the proposal, and would do more for the argument against "nerfing" the ability. Thanks Xova Can always rely on you to be reasonable and open minded.

05-03-2007, 10:16 AM	#22
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	shalom wrote: I don't know about drag, so I'll only speak to HookArrow... Are you really calling for a nerf of a RANGER ability that pulls the target RIGHT NEXT TO HIM? I've only played a ranger to high40's, but as a ranger, I'm much happier if my opponent is some distance away (prefereably with his back to me). Having someone right on top of me makes life harder, not easier. Maybe at T7, having a ranger's opponent close is an advantage, but my guess is not. Yes, there are special occasions where pulling someone off a griff tower, or out of healing range is helpful BUT... 1. As someone pointed out HookArrow fails to move the target often. 2. If HookArrow is a 'charm' so is fear, root, etc. Its a special ability, which under special circumstances is ideal; but those are few and mostly avoidable. My guess is the OP got HookArrowed into a guard, lost fame and/or title and wants to keep gankin greenies with impunity. Yes, i'm asking them to take a look at it. Please stop making assumptions about me.. I know how to avoid hookarrow, and when i'm forced to combat near a guard, i remain very aware of what players are nearby and what abilities they have. I have not been hook-arrow'd for fame since i was dragged from about half way to the Claymore monument in Ant, to the guards an NQG in the silliest chain you've ever seen. And that was quite some time ago.. Regardless of your experience, this ability can be used in a way like charm where you can control the distance AND direction that another player travels... and JUST like a charm, it also has a chance to be resisted or fail. Fear and root do not control distance, root does not move them at all, and does not prevent them from immediately curing it. If, as Xova said, you think fear should carry a similar charm timer -- so be it. I'm fine with it. When a player get's credit for hooking or draging another player onto a mob, the way you can charm someone onto one... I think that, as Charm works, they shouldn't get credit. I think the devs should take a closer look at this diversity they've added, and a longer consideration on their effects in pvp.

05-03-2007, 02:42 PM	#23
Xova Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 509	Bozidar wrote: Thanks Xova Can always rely on you to be reasonable and open minded. Anytime! It's what I do.

05-03-2007, 03:00 PM	#24
ZhouYu Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 140	Why don't they just make drag a one itme use ability with immunity and reuse time like some people have suggested ? make it line a fear or a stun. just drag TO the player using it, and thatsit, free movement after that. Make it so it works opposite way of the teleport ability bruisers get. Anyway what would have been a smart wayto implent drag was to give it to a class that can rez and make the ability usable on friendly corpses only. Like it was used in SWG, so healers could drag dead corpses from a range and rez them at a safe location. Sometimes I really wonder if the DEVs even test htings out before going live with them.

05-03-2007, 03:59 PM	#25
Xova Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 509	ZhouYu wrote: Why don't they just make drag a one itme use ability with immunity and reuse time like some people have suggested ? make it line a fear or a stun. just drag TO the player using it, and thatsit, free movement after that. Make it so it works opposite way of the teleport ability bruisers get. Anyway what would have been a smart wayto implent drag was to give it to a class that can rez and make the ability usable on friendly corpses only. Like it was used in SWG, so healers could drag dead corpses from a range and rez them at a safe location. Sometimes I really wonder if the DEVs even test htings out before going live with them. Yes! Give me drag ability on corpses lke I used to have as a Medic in SWG. /cry

05-03-2007, 05:10 PM	#26
Taldier Server: Venekor Guild: Opus Dei Rank: Officer Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,071	ZhouYu wrote: Why don't they just make drag a one itme use ability with immunity and reuse time like some people have suggested ? make it line a fear or a stun. just drag TO the player using it, and thatsit, free movement after that. Make it so it works opposite way of the teleport ability bruisers get. That would be completly altering the ability. Essentially just giving bruisers hook arrow (which doesnt make any sense for a bruiser, how can I pull someone from 30 ft away) instead of drag. Not to mention the fact that it would make drag essentially worthless in pve. As it is now a bruiser has to actually get right up to the target to drag them. If a group cant kill, or at least in some way incapacitate the bruiser (mez, charm, root, etc) while hes right next to them you deserve to have one of your members dragged away and beat up. Also I've heard drag can be cured...not sure which cure it is, can someone verify this? Drag has a legimate purpose of allowing a bruiser to seperate one target out of a group of targets. If your being dragged into agro mobs, sure thats lame but 1. if the bruiser fails fd hes screwed 2. dont fight people right next to an agro mob in the first place, what if someone feared or knocked you into them, same effect your dead (this is essentially the same idea as "dont fight next to a tall cliff if you dont have safe fall" or "dont fight underwater if you cant breathe" duh) As to the comparison of drag to charm...while charmed you are essentially the pet of the person charming you, and therefore unable to defend yourself. While being dragged you can fight back (heck theoretically you could even kill the bruiser while hes dragging you). Therefore imo drag is even less of a contol effect then mez, stifle, stun, and fear. It does not remotely compare to charming someone. The only reason that being charmed makes you not lose anything for dying is that it has essentially turned you into an npc, this is not true of any other ability.

05-03-2007, 05:28 PM	#27
Ameniel Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 304	Taldier wrote: As to the comparison of drag to charm...while charmed you are essentially the pet of the person charming you, and therefore unable to defend yourself. While being dragged you can fight back (heck theoretically you could even kill the bruiser while hes dragging you). Therefore imo drag is even less of a contol effect then mez, stifle, stun, and fear. It does not remotely compare to charming someone. The only reason that being charmed makes you not lose anything for dying is that it has essentially turned you into an npc, this is not true of any other ability. QFE __________________ Ameniel, Bruiser of Venekor(Retired) Sabal, Brigand of Venekor Narade, Ranger of Nagafen Offense, Troubadour of Nagafen It's all about the strategerie

05-03-2007, 06:10 PM	#28
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	As i've said, drag isn't something i have experience with. I'm not sure it can be cured by the person being dragged, as you're moving, and iirc cure spells and potions can not be cast "on the run". As a caster, how are you going to fight back against a bruiser dragging you? Wand him to death? (and i mean melee attack) With hookshot, there is no way to counteract it. We aren't aware of any resists to build against it, or even avoidance. We have no way to cure it, have no immunity to it, and have no charm-like protection from it.

05-03-2007, 06:27 PM	#29
Taldier Server: Venekor Guild: Opus Dei Rank: Officer Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,071	Are you talking solo or group pvp? If your a caster in a group and you get dragged your tank should be taunting the bruiser. Sure you have to follow them around but they ain't hitting you either. If your a solo squishy caster and a bruiser is close enough to drag you, you probably wont be alive much longer anyway. As for hookshot, I really don't see the big deal. People complaining about rangers who get you closer to them? Only place this matters is in t2/t3 pvp when stupid people stand within spitting distance of an enemy guard. Regardless neither of them do anything similar to charm. Perhaps you could put an immunity on it similar to root, but this would only make a difference if there was a full group of bruisers/rangers chain dragging/hookshotting you across a zone (which would be hilarious).

05-03-2007, 06:33 PM	#30
Xova Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 509	Bozidar wrote: As i've said, drag isn't something i have experience with. I'm not sure it can be cured by the person being dragged, as you're moving, and iirc cure spells and potions can not be cast "on the run". As a caster, how are you going to fight back against a bruiser dragging you? Wand him to death? (and i mean melee attack) With hookshot, there is no way to counteract it. We aren't aware of any resists to build against it, or even avoidance. We have no way to cure it, have no immunity to it, and have no charm-like protection from it. This is a good point - as a caster class, I have no way to "fight back" against being Dragged since we cannot cast on the move. In my particular case I was following my group to the clouds when the enemy group landed with me targeted, and dragged me away from the platform. Was far too fast for my group to even see what happened thanks to the rendering issues at cloud stations. Fortunately as a Freeporter I don't fight bruisers too often - just a handful of Exiled ones - but that one time was enough that I will stay far away from those bruisers should I run into them again. Now, make it so I can cast my spells on the fly, and I'll happily get close enough again.