Maximize DPS.

[aelder~]

I suppose its a reflection of how few troubadors are left that our proc question gets answered by conjurors

As long as folks are "chatting" about Alin's, I figure its the 40% less hate gain that really matters anyway, even more than the instant hate reduction that occurs when you take damage.

Cheers,

Aelder

[Spider]

aelder~ wrote:

I suppose its a reflection of how few troubadors are left that our proc question gets answered by conjurors

As long as folks are "chatting" about Alin's, I figure its the 40% less hate gain that really matters anyway, even more than the instant hate reduction that occurs when you take damage.

Cheers,

Aelder

this is true 

but as long as your not gettign oneshotted the proc might even show a use from time to time

i.e. mobs that fire off smaller aoe's or aoe dots  that tick off non instant death amounts of damage

at wich point the proc is usefull as well

as for our spell damage proc the simplest way to test this would be to group with a caster with an int buff

put on our buff and have them look at the proc to see it damage and then cast there int buff on themselves and see if it increases

then have the troub cast its self buff and see if the proc increases on them

[ForgottenFoundling]

Katryna@Lucan DLere wrote:

ForgottenFoundling wrote:

Okay, I did check on a few others.  Emberseed also uses the int of the toon it's on.  Parsed troub vs swashy.  I had higher int than the swashy, but lower int than the conjy.  My emberseed procs were higher than the swashy's.  If what you're saying is true, the procs would have been identical due to using your int vs ours.

Ember Seed procs for a range, not a set amount, so there is some random variation involved.  If the damage is governed by the Conjuror's INT, then under controlled circumstances the average proc will be approximately the same for both, given a large enough sample size. The best way to test is to fight white con mobs on autoattack, using no mitigation debuffs (such as Conjuror's Brand) and check the individual proc values against the damage range the Conjuror sees for the spell.  If the target has significantly less INT than the Conjuror and the values are below the normal damage range, then you have your answer.

Emberseed does proc for a range, however, I am looking at zonewide parses and not just encounter specific ones.  There were 2 conjurers in the group, one with emberseed on them (they melee and cast).  Conjy parses were highest (but significantly lower dmg), troub 2nd and swashy last.  Just as int levels were. 

 The zonewides for most of these items were significantly different proccing amounts that should not have differed so with a normal dmg range of procs.  I'm convinced.  If you are not, get out the parser and check it out.

[Draco the Grey]

Not saying you were wrong, just that it was bad methodology.  Too many factors that could skew your results simply running a normal zone. Simpler test - Champion with Conjuror's Brand off, fighting level 69 Dire Worgs in the Loping Plains.  With the pet in defensive stance, Ember Seed hit for much less than the amount I see listed, between 57-69 points a hit.  When I put the pet in offensive stance, Ember Seed hits for much higher, so that confirms that. Pyreshield, on the other hand, hit for exactly the amount my spell shows every single time, offensive or defensive stance.  So it appears defensive buffs do still use the caster's INT.

[Pogopuschel]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:

I disagree there... If the tank's on his own, he will most likely lose aggro, but there's handy stuff like Assassin's and  Swashie's hate transfer, depending on the tank cl ass they have similar stuff too. Dirge in the group? Coercer in the group? Also if the dps people don't know how to control their own aggro, they can mess it up. Throwing an Ice Nova 2s into the fight is also stupid. Summing up, the usefulness of Serenade is very much depending on your group setup. It can  even hurt aggro control (raid situation, imagine e.g. Guard + Troub + Assa ssin + healer + healer + healer. You'll lower the assassin's hate gain,  hence the amount transferred to the tank. You yourself shouldn't be able to get aggro from the tank, same goes for the healers, so it's a wasted conc slot that even makes your tank look bad )

Strawman - the Troubador has no place in the group you describe (MT group).

Oh yes sorry, I forgot: Raids and available classes are always perfect and you never have to work with what you got...

[Caldorian]

   I usually run with 4 casters and a fury on raids. Usually 2 of the casters are Conj/ Necro. Our group spell procs work off of our INT not the casters. It's easy enough to parse and see that. I am not to concerned with my personal DPS, as I am not a DPS class and never will be. I mainly Debuff, add what dps I can and JC my butt off while helping my group's DPS. I have spec'ed to reflect that. I am max on anything that helps my group but have done little to help my own DPS. I went Sta line as I like the added defense.  Blocking those those big melee AEs and watching most the scouts go splat is funny.     The only reason I can see a troub being with anyone but casters is if there are 2 troubs. Then put the 2nd troub with your high melee DPS just for the deaggro, haste and avoid boost. My overall raid DPS is no where near 1k and on average I parse 500-600. Granted there is still  a lot of gear I would like to get but I am full relic or better. But If you add in the DPS just from Aria that I provide it's more along the lined of 1400DPS. I account for at least 10% of the dps of each group member and above 15% for Necros,  fast fingered warlocks and summoners using mage pets.  That isn't even counting PotM, JC,  and the extra damage hate reducer provides if the casters use it. IMO that is the troub class in a nut shell. I don't see how you parse 1K personal DPS and still JC and POTM as much as you can to help your group. But maybe is just great gear. We are Troubs... If you want personal DPS roll a swashy or assassin. But if you really look at our class outside our personal DPS, we provide more to a raid then any single DPS could dream of. Some can handle the utility class and some want more glory. To each their own.     One of the things I wish they would change with Troubs is to make PotM more in line with the DPS boost of CoB.  PotM just doesn't provide the DPS I think it should.    With all this said, I don't claim to be a hard core raider or the end all of Troub Knowledge.

[aelder~]

One constructive thought.  We have talked some about gear and cast orders.  I highly recommend knowing your buffs, or rather theirs.  You may have the experienced the disappointment of being out dps'd by another bard on your raid.  You assume its cast order, or gear, etc.  Mileage may vary, but it has alot more to do with the other buffs we get from other folks and therefore group composition.

A good portion of the damage that can lift you from being a 300-400 dps troubador to 700-800 can come from your group.  As with gear, look for proc buffs that can be laid atop one another.  I'll focus on procs (as opposed to group buffs, like berserk or the inqui proc frequncy booster) because those are the ones to watch and ask for since it may not occur to the casters to necessarily have it on their bard.  If you get multiple procs, make the most of them by getting up your haste and being sure you get a melee cut between your spells/CAs.

In particular watch for / request (note: from memory so correct me on names and icons pls):

Conjuror: Ember Seed (yellow blaze on orange background)

Wizard: Phoenix Blade (sword on orange background)

Warlock: Maliganant Grasp (can't remember, creepy fingers on orange or green?)

Fury: Agitate (closed fist on redish background, similar to allegro)

Illusionist: Synergism (dunno) & i think a double attack that is best on a dual wielder

I am sure there are others, but these are the ones I watch for in the raid group I am usually with (alas, I rarely get the illusionist goodies as when do we really get an illusionist or coercer to play with?).

Recognize that if you have another scout or fighter in group they are more likely to be the lucky recipient of this largesse. But it's worth keeping an eye out for, as silly things do happen sometimes (agitate on necro's mage pet b/c the conjuror assumed it was a scout pet; mages forget to melee buff after wipe since its a "caster" group, etc.)

Happy hunting,

Aelder

[ForgottenFoundling]

Also, Phoenixblade & Malignant Grasp do not stick, so figure out which sorc has the better spell and pick that up.  I've found that master Phoenixblade actually parses more for my playstyle than Mal Grasp, but your mileage may vary.

 /useabilityonplayer macros take any of the difficulty out of JCapping others.  Jcapping yourself will allow you to get more precisions off and speed up the recast for another jcap for the future although this strat isn't the best for all encounters.

 Another thing that will help you will be getting people that you routinely jcap to watch their buffs and find out when immunity is up, then hit a macro to let you know that immunity is up and they can be capped again.

[Caldorian]

Yeah my JC is macro'd. I have 5 target keys and 1 (/tell target, cast JC,/target MA) key then the MT target key. For our raids we are usually a bit short on heals so JCing the MT's Shammy is a huge help at the start of the fight. after that if the MTs health is still bouncing a bit i go to a secondary healer. Then it's DPS. But honestly many of my DPS simply don't use JC or ask for it. I JC rangers before sniper shot. Every once in a while a caster asks for it. As for group buffs. I always have Vim for the added proc damage. ( have parsed it and you get more DPS our of Vim  with it on a troub then on any  caster. Always have agitate, as there is almost never another melee in my group. always have ember seed ( we have conj's coming out our ears ) alway have Wiz warlock melee proc depending on which I have in group. I know part of my issue with DPS is the delay on my 1 hander and the fact that I use a 1 hander. While waiting on a shadow axe, i stole a frostwrath from  the tanks. Nice weapon but with 1.6 delay not the best for procs. i am working on getting that melee hit in between CA's and Nukes. My gear is more suited for Nuking as that seems to be where alot of my DPS comes from. self Buffed I run 47% haste and 56%? to double attack, 10% dps mod. (still waiting for a good bow to add another 10% to.)  I have recently raised my Str to a decent level usually 580 or so on raid, Unless I am having to go heavy on resist gear. I know I could get more DPS out of DW. I respeced and parsed it. But honestly I saw a huge decrease in defense overall, once I specced that way, for only a marginal increase in DPS. I also didn't like the poison Procs from Agi line that so many love. As a mezzer is seriously messes me up since it's a passive aa. But sword and board allows me to live thru the mass barrages where other scouts get slaughtered. With only 13% to block I block a hell of a lot of those attacks. If I drop it's usually my casters turn shortly behind. They are accustomed to that 40% hate reduction and can't seem to adjust their nukes until I am up and buffed again. Our normal raid dirge parses 900 - 1k most of the time. But he's in the MT group with a coercer. He [Removed for Content] well better parse high. Just adding a dirge to my group makes a huge improvement to my DPS. mainly the DPS mod I think. In groups I have parsed 800s with axe.. 900s with dw. I am hoping that once I get the slower delay weapon and another 10% dps mod my DPS will reflect.  But on raids I do alot of debuffing. I took the Demorilization line and now almost done with Resonance.  Not to interested in the +5 range but I wanted the wards on resist songes maxed. I liked the demoralization line.  first time I use it on raid our healers commented that they saw the difference. MT wasn't dropping near as fast up front. On a raid: have shammy in target at pull. JC as the mob arrives,  I turn on auto ranged, Demoral pro, zander's and then Kian's.  step up and use f flanking, snare/debuff, recast any debuffs that were resisted then perfect shrill , noble, personal HO ( macroed) if I don't already have the haste/dps Buff. then Bump and midnight. then cycle what ever is up.  throwing in Bellow for the 45% proc rate. I always have snare on the mob before I use perfect shrill. I know I tend to run thru all that to fast and don't get the melee swings in between but I am working on that.  I seem to have good burst damage but i can't sustain it at all.. i will jump to 1k+ on active parse then drop  steadily to 5-600 by the end of the fight.  To explain the bow auto attack. I found I could Auto bow attack while debuffing where I can't melee attack. It's only 1-2 hits but my bow hits for 600-1200 + procs and crits so it's better then no hits in that short span of time.

[Pogopuschel]

Whoa, many postings while I wasn't looking. - The other cool Illu buff for Troubs is "Illusory Arm" - Aria's proc damage is based on the Troub's intelligence while you put up Aria. Casting Aria and your self buff after that will do nothing to Aria. Don't get fooled by the spell description, look at the maintained spells bar. Maybe the display of that one is just off. - /useabilityonplayer is bugged. I have several JCap macros, and sometimes (seemingly random) JCap goes to my target or implied target instead. The bug was introduced with the last LU, I /bug'ged it twice, no change so far. Hard to track really. Basically it goes like this. I target the mob, the mob has the MT targetted. I use my /useabilityonplayer macro. Sometimes, the MT will get JC instead of the player I want to use it on. Maybe it's because the player has JCap immunity at the time? I experimented with that out of combat, that isn't the reason. So I have no clue what causes it, and I doubt that ProfitUI is BSing me. Use that command with care at the moment.

[ForgottenFoundling]

The only issue I have with the /useabilityonplayer macro is it will sometimes, erroneously, say that my target is immune, but if i click it again the spell works fine.

[Krilinye]

ForgottenFoundling wrote:

The only issue I have with the /useabilityonplayer macro is it will sometimes, erroneously, say that my target is immune, but if i click it again the spell works fine.

With the /useability command, or the new Macros, you cant queue a spell properly, so if you press your useability macro while fighting, it will cast it on your target instead (ie. if you have a mob as target, it will most likely hit the MT) so you gotta be sure your not casting at all or it wont target the right person.

[ForgottenFoundling]

That just isn't my experience...  I monitor my targets and they always receive the buff and get immunity.

[Pogopuschel]

Krilinye wrote:

ForgottenFoundling wrote:

The only issue I have with the /useabilityonplayer macro is it will sometimes, erroneously, say that my target is immune, but if i click it again the spell works fine.

With the /useability command, or the new Macros, you cant queue a spell properly, so if you press your useability macro while fighting, it will cast it on your target instead (ie. if you have a mob as target, it will most likely hit the MT) so you gotta be sure your not casting at all or it wont target the right person.

I tried that today, and you are 100% right. If I queue my /useabilityon macro, it goes to the target or implied target (whatever is a friendly). Do not queue macros with /useabilityonplayer.

[aelder~]

I have stopped queueing songs (except when PotM is up) and now click when available, under the (perhaps erroneous) belief that you don't get your autoattack melee swings between queued songs.  Correct or incorrect?

As for Jester's, with the new macros, I have added another hotbar and have jester's buttons for my group members and other key raid folks.  Its great because you never lose target and the buttons refresh with timer if you stick the JC icon on it (which it would not if you are still going with your old /useabilityon macro).

 Cheers,

[Nainitsuj]

ForgottenFoundling wrote:

Spider wrote:

Antipaladin wrote:

Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.

uh maybie because were CASTER BUFFERS ?????? ya think ? dirges buff Melee we buff casters

were designed to run in the caster group

if you dont know that simple fact then obviously you dont belong posting advice to ANYONE on being a troub

Spider, learn a bit more about the synergies between classes.  Do this and you will find that to truly maximize dps, it's best to have melee scouts and casters together in a troub group in order for each to get the best buffs of all classes.  "Caster Group" refers to a raid building 4 casters, a healer and a troubie.

 Fury - great for casters with the group int boost/vim - also great for dps scouts with agitate.

Sorcs/Conjs - all have proc songs that can benefit a dps scout

Yes, dirges do buff melee dps quite well, but we have something to add too and our hate decreaser is the BEST thing for a dps scout.

Wiz, Warlock, Conj, Necro (both using mage pet), Troub, Templar/inquisitor. (You can swap the summoners with enchanters with varying results) Really, it doesn't matter which mages you put in the group, as long as you can do the following:

Jester's on the healer. DR on the pull POTM Jesters on yourself when it's up.

POTM will be up 50 seconds after the fight starts with DR running every 3:30  Average trash fight is what.. 1:30 - 3 min depending on how many are in the raid? So 1 min of POTM with 1 min cap immunity to burn. 

No mixed scout / mage group is going to touch this group's dps.

And any summoner still using scout pet is seriously hurting the raid's dps.  Replace them with a swash.

*EDIT* Trash fight length is based off of EH

[Jeger_Wulf]

> DR on the pull

DR? Not able to figure out what that stands for, sorry. I'll probably slap my forhead when you tell me, but I'm willing to risk that.

[Tri]

divine recovery, end line cleric AA when you use that with PotM it's all about not over aggroing

[aelder~]

Divine recovery is like jester's cap, but for the whole group (iirc, 24 seconds of 50% faster casting speed + 33% faster recasts).  You hit the cleric with Jester's first so that the cleric can use divine recovery again sooner (something like every 90 seconds instead of 3 minutes).

[Tsarunai]

I'm normally in a grp where people hold back a little to prevent pulling aggro. I also box a Coercer and place Harmonious Link on 2 of the 4 mages that are normally grouped with me. The run speed AA is pointless, the cast time boost is a joke, I don't care about Wis and sure as hell don't need another deaggro ability (although I have pulled aggro in some PU raids). So, I've basically decided that DKtM isn't worth the AAs spent to get it and spec'd more into DMG. I have Str steup at 8-7-4-8-1, Agi at 4-8 and Int at 8. I consistantly parse 800+ an have broken 1k+ in single target mobs on many occasions. Best parse I can remember was 1300+ on a group of mobs. I consistantly outdamage Rangers as well. Usually ending most pickup raids in the top 5. Str and Int are at 600 even self buffed and can reach 800+ easily raid buffed. I rarely cast precision as I've seen it kill more mages than help jester's I'll cast on healers more than anything but generally don't cast it on trash period. My buff setup is almost always Alin's, Raxxyl's, Bria's, Daelis amd Aria. I'll drop Daelis' for resists when needed but that's uncommon. I never put up haste and Dove song cast pretty rarely. I ask every mage in the group for their proc buff by name and if a Fury is in group always ask for Agitate. I have a dual screen setup so I can watch parses as the fights progress and after watching thousands of em, I'll only take the Grinning Dirk out of my primary to switch to claymore only long enough to hit Turnstrike and swap right back. I have Grinning, Wurmy, Qeynos Cutlass, Absolution and Vyemm's Fang. I still use the Dirk/ Wurmy combo as it tends to parse higher. Our potential for damage is there. I've just come to the realization that most mages don't require the pathetic boost that some of our AAs give them. That's just my take on it.

[Vraneth]

aelder~ wrote:

Divine recovery is like jester's cap, but for the whole group (iirc, 24 seconds of 50% faster casting speed + 33% faster recasts).  You hit the cleric with Jester's first so that the cleric can use divine recovery again sooner (something like every 90 seconds instead of 3 minutes).

DR is not faster recasts, Divine recover cuts casting speed with 50% and recover speed with 33%, meaning you will chain CA's and spells faster together, it does not affect reuse speed at all.

[Vraneth]

Nainitsuj wrote:

ForgottenFoundling wrote:

Spider wrote:

Antipaladin wrote:

Why would you run in a caster group? Makes even less sense dps-wise.

uh maybie because were CASTER BUFFERS ?????? ya think ? dirges buff Melee we buff casters

were designed to run in the caster group

if you dont know that simple fact then obviously you dont belong posting advice to ANYONE on being a troub

Spider, learn a bit more about the synergies between classes.  Do this and you will find that to truly maximize dps, it's best to have melee scouts and casters together in a troub group in order for each to get the best buffs of all classes.  "Caster Group" refers to a raid building 4 casters, a healer and a troubie.

 Fury - great for casters with the group int boost/vim - also great for dps scouts with agitate.

Sorcs/Conjs - all have proc songs that can benefit a dps scout

Yes, dirges do buff melee dps quite well, but we have something to add too and our hate decreaser is the BEST thing for a dps scou

Wiz, Warlock, Conj, Necro (both using mage pet), Troub, Templar/inquisitor. (You can swap the summoners with enchanters with varying results) Really, it doesn't matter which mages you put in the group, as long as you can do the following:

Jester's on the healer. DR on the pull POTM Jesters on yourself when it's up.

POTM will be up 50 seconds after the fight starts with DR running every 3:30  Average trash fight is what.. 1:30 - 3 min depending on how many are in the raid? So 1 min of POTM with 1 min cap immunity to burn. 

No mixed scout / mage group is going to touch this group's dps.

And any summoner still using scout pet is seriously hurting the raid's dps.  Replace them with a swash.

*EDIT* Trash fight length is based off of EH

Does it matter what a single group parses, [Removed for Content] no, it's all about raidwide DPS and IF you set it up that way I promise you that the raidwide DPS would go down.

[aelder~]

Thanks for the correction on Divine Recovery, Slixxer.  I was talking from memory and trying to recall what someone's raid spam said.  The 33% faster recovery then isn't a big deal for us, but I imagine its more of an issue for the mages.

Regarding caster group or mixed group, its really not such a dichotomy as folks are making it out to be.  If you have a mage heavy guild, caster groups make sense.  If you have a decent population of scouts / surplus fighters, mixed groups will share group buffs the best for total DPS--they need to be mixed in so you don't get an unbuffed G4 of odds and ends. 

Seems to me folks just aren't thinking outside of their particular flavor of their world,

[RanmaBoyType]

way back at the beginning of this post it was mentioned to use a +5 peirce (or +5 slash if you have a sword) on your weapon over a proc.

Can anyone elaborate on this, as my trouby just aquired the fabled compoenent for an adornment, and i was unsure whether the +5 is better on a weapon, or getting a damage proc on it.

[Pogopuschel]

I'm usually in a group that ist just sucky for me, so I have like 360-370 pierce or slash and that's only maxed skill plus a few items.  For the hit chance, the +5 just didn't seem worth it, I hit level 74 epic trash for roughly 65% of the time with or without the adorns. I did not make a comparison for orange cons, maybe it was more of a help there. What certainly is a waste on any long delay weapon is the direct damage adorns - they might be awesome on e.g. Windrazor? That is if you don't miss too many auto-attacks ofc...

[Mildavyn]

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:

- Aria's proc damage is based on the Troub's intelligence while you put up Aria. Casting Aria and your self buff after that will do nothing to Aria. Don't get fooled by the spell description, look at the maintained spells bar. Maybe the display of that one is just off.

Would like to correct this, the proc damage of Aria is based entirely on the INT of the individual group members. Increasing your own INT will not in anyway increase the proc numbers that your group mates will get. This is a display bug.

ARIA PROC NOT BASED ON THE TROUB'S PERSONAL INT SCORE< BUT ON THE INDIVIDUAL INT OF HIS GROUP MEMBERS.

Thank you.

[ForgottenFoundling]

As far as weapon adorns go, pierce helps, but I'm experimenting whether +10 pierce is better than +2% spell crits or not.  I've recently picked up a t6 fabled 1h piercer adorn to add 1% spell crit.  My rationale is that due to the daze on potm, it might be good to have spell crit over melee only items since we can't swing during precision.

The jury is still out, but it might work out well.

 The way I'm going to work it eventually is 2 +piercers, 2 power proccers and 2 spell critters.

[SpiralDown]

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:

- Aria's proc damage is based on the Troub's intelligence while you put up Aria. Casting Aria and your self buff after that will do nothing to Aria. Don't get fooled by the spell description, look at the maintained spells bar. Maybe the display of that one is just off.

Would like to correct this, the proc damage of Aria is based entirely on the INT of the individual group members. Increasing your own INT will not in anyway increase the proc numbers that your group mates will get. This is a display bug.

ARIA PROC NOT BASED ON THE TROUB'S PERSONAL INT SCORE< BUT ON THE INDIVIDUAL INT OF HIS GROUP MEMBERS.

Thank you.

Just to back that up. We raided with two troubs in Freethinker's.  Each group had a wizzy and a warlock.  Was a very mage heavy day.  Anyway, his int was half that of mine and the numbers from Aria were basically the same for both groups (zonewide total dmg, avg dmg per hit, ect...) 

[jedce]

hi fairly new troub here.

i run with a raid guild on everfrost

usualy group set is me, fury, and 4 casters of varying class depending on what zone we hit and what mob we afe fighting.i must agree with the poster talking about our utility in respect to caster buffes and procs.if your not running them and castign them as often as they come up.. your selling your raid dps short..i didint have to do all kinds of testing to see this.. very simple.. i just watched the pase.. granted it was 2 diff zones but i didint want to hinder the raid much for personal piece fo mind.

1 run was in EH, i just took note of the dps the casters and fury in my group was doing on average

later that week we hit DT and i did the same but had respec'd and put on diff gear for personal dps

yes my personal dps went up buy a couple hundred in DT over EH, but on average the dps of the casters/fury in my group went down about the same...per person.

so the choice seems fairly simple to me.... up my own by a couple 3 hundred and lower 5 peeps by about that or maybe a bit less(like i say i didint study it to hard) ... or up 5 other poeple by 200-300 and still manage to eek out anywhere from 500-800 for myself and just take satisfaction in the assist

 no sig im lazy

Lbas Presly-Troubadour

Deaths Door - Everfrost

[napalmpt]

Hey all conjy here but have a troub alt, Love what you guys can do for us for dps =D jsut thought i would drop a line and say that i think teh reason /useablityonperson with JC doesnt work is cause all the abilities in a macro work at the same time. So if you /target SOandSO and /useability jc in one macro it might not have time to switch targets for JC because both commands are happening simultaniously. there for it could go to whoever you have targeted while using the macro or the person the macro was actually intended for.  Might be easier to just make a /target SOandSO macro and keep jc hot button seperate.