Tanking and the riposte achievement

Almeric_CoS · 04-02-2007, 04:10 PM

Right now I'm a STA/INT Monk, in theory built for tanking. I used to be STR/STA, but switched things around when I noticed just how many extra hitpoints I could get from using certain weapons.

But recently I was thinking about how our Def Stance dictates that we will ALWAYS parry 12.5% of attacks against us no matter what, including epics. Other boosts to parry, defense, deflection, and dodge will raise our avoidance, but that only helps a little bit against high end mobs, if at all.

BUT, what about the riposte bonus from the KoS STR Brawler line? Pre-EoF-Revamp, at least, 8 points in that achievement added a flat 5% onto your avoidance. Is THAT achievement influenced by mob level, or is it a straight-out chance to riposte? If so, wouldn't that give us an effective avoidance basement of 17.5%?

Makes me think that a full extra 5% avoidance that works on mobs of all difficulty would be better than the stats I get from my weapon.

Geothe · 04-02-2007, 05:00 PM

I was actually going to post something along these lines as well about that very AA.

Have a newbie brawler that i'm leveling up, and haven't gotten to that AA yet, but, first AA point adds 1.5% riposte of all front damage, does dumping 8 points in it up it to 12% total? (ie, 1.5% per point).

If so, that really does sound godly for a group tanking brawler. lol

DynamicPerforman · 04-02-2007, 06:07 PM

Its deflect 12.5% or some number near that, I don't have eq2 at work.
Any boost to avoidence helps against epics. I've been testing avoidence against even conned epics, and its within 5% of its display value. Sometimes up sometimes down, but its pretty good for a RNG.
What is dodge?
You can't just add avoidence like that. It is: 5% + (.95*12.5)% = 16.9% uncontested avoidence.

I would not use STR line 5%, when you can get 4% riposte from slashing adorns, or +14 parry from piercing adorns(usually around 8% contested avoid). And still keep your stat bonus and AA points in parry and deflection. The INT final is actually nice for tanking, in the case where a mob does a bit hit aoe (usually unavoidable tosses EVERYONE into red) And an extra 1.4k mit is nice ^_^ Its usually ~ 8% mit. Which is ~480 less damage from a typical epic's strike.

Almeric_CoS · 04-03-2007, 12:33 AM

Back in the pre-EoF day, the 5% riposting from Claw Reversal (now that I'm online I can look up names *grin*) added exactly 5% to your avoidance.

But even if your math is right (and it certainly may be, I'm not going to argue it right now), it seems to me that 16.9% uncontested avoidance COULD be more handy than 4-ish% contested avoidance plus weapon stats.

Avoidance seems to work well against heroics, but against epics I get *slaughtered*....some extra uncontested would be nice, IF it is, indeed, uncontested!

Couching · 04-03-2007, 01:33 AM

Avoidance is nice for heroic encounters. Though, for brawlers, we shouldn't worry about it. It's nice to get extra avoidance from our advanced achievements. Though, more likely, you can hit the avoidance cap easily with a bard. If you really want to enhance your tanking capability. Mitigation is all the way for brawlers. You can get Dragonscale Sash, Dragonscale earring and Dark Chitin Rings. It's 422 mitigations. Moreover, you can get extra 201 mitigations from adornments. None of the items is dropped in raid. Even you are a casual player, you can get it with determination. I have seen a lot of players complaining that monks cannot even tank in heroic encounters. I am not surprised since a lot of monks in my server have less than 2000 mitigations. They didn't gear themselves correctly. They have nice hp and stats but can't even tank a [Removed for Content].

Almeric_CoS · 04-03-2007, 11:56 AM

Nothing wrong with that IF you don't WANT to be a tank. It's nice that Monks have that option SMILEY

Just have to be smart enough to know the difference between a DPS build and a Tank build, and know the ways you should equip yourself for each!

Couching · 04-03-2007, 12:17 PM

Almeric@Permafrost wrote:

Nothing wrong with that IF you don't WANT to be a tank. It's nice that Monks have that option
Just have to be smart enough to know the difference between a DPS build and a Tank build, and know the ways you should equip yourself for each!

That's sounds like a healer didn't want to heal but nuking. We are a fighter. We didn't have any advantage in dps no matter combat arts or auto-attack. Guardian and Pal did less damage in auto-attack but it was changed. Seriously, this is the problem of monk. We didn't have any advantage in dps with supbar tanking. If you think we have the option in tanking or dps, it's just because most players didn't know how to use Advanced Combat Tracker. They don't have a clue of which class is for dps. They thought we can dps just because we can't tank a [Removed for Content]. We can't heal. We can't debuff. Oh, look, this monk is duel wielding. He must be a dpser! SMILEY

DynamicPerforman · 04-03-2007, 04:19 PM

54% mit, 71% avoidence 11k hp raid buffed last saturday. With ACT against a named 70x4: 67% avoidence versus melee hits for the first pull (we failed, had some issues with the timing of the pull). 73% avoidence versus melee for the second pull. I had a zerker's avoidence buff on me, but I am only counting times the MY CHARACTER avoided hits. I can see an issue with both to-hit bonus on epics and the RNG. What I want to know are the following:

Do plate tanks experiance a similar decrease in their actual chance to avoid?
Is this decrease seriously debilitating(haha) as the mobs approch 75x4?

To this end I will be having that same zerker try the epic. He's not geared as well as I am, but its not a hard named once we got the pull down. We will also go and do the Maestro again. and I will inspect my avoidence for that fight.

Couching · 04-03-2007, 05:15 PM

DynamicPerformance wrote:

54% mit, 71% avoidence 11k hp raid buffed last saturday. With ACT against a named 70x4: 67% avoidence versus melee hits for the first pull (we failed, had some issues with the timing of the pull). 73% avoidence versus melee for the second pull. I had a zerker's avoidence buff on me, but I am only counting times the MY CHARACTER avoided hits. I can see an issue with both to-hit bonus on epics and the RNG. What I want to know are the following:
Do plate tanks experiance a similar decrease in their actual chance to avoid?
Is this decrease seriously debilitating(haha) as the mobs approch 75x4?
To this end I will be having that same zerker try the epic. He's not geared as well as I am, but its not a hard named once we got the pull down. We will also go and do the Maestro again. and I will inspect my avoidence for that fight.

Both mitigation and avoidance cap is 70%. It's worthless to get more than 70%. For your first question, yes. For your second question, yes. Mitigation is all the way unless you have 60% mitigation with group buff. Even plate tank, it's easy to get 70% avoidance in raid with proper gears. That's why brawler is [Removed for Content] as tank. Plate tank can hit 70% avoidance much easier than brawler to hit 60% mitigation. Moreover, uber tank can hit 70% avoidance and 65%+ mitigation in raid.

Anjin · 04-03-2007, 08:45 PM

DynamicPerformance wrote:

54% mit, 71% avoidence 11k hp raid buffed last saturday. With ACT against a named 70x4: 67% avoidence versus melee hits for the first pull (we failed, had some issues with the timing of the pull). 73% avoidence versus melee for the second pull. I had a zerker's avoidence buff on me, but I am only counting times the MY CHARACTER avoided hits. I can see an issue with both to-hit bonus on epics and the RNG. What I want to know are the following:
Do plate tanks experiance a similar decrease in their actual chance to avoid?
Is this decrease seriously debilitating(haha) as the mobs approch 75x4?
To this end I will be having that same zerker try the epic. He's not geared as well as I am, but its not a hard named once we got the pull down. We will also go and do the Maestro again. and I will inspect my avoidence for that fight.

What was the named? Also, 11K for a MT Monk is WAAAAAY too low, considering we take more spike DMG that a plate tank (a guardian can get 12k++ reasonably easily - 14k+ being good).

DynamicPerforman · 04-04-2007, 02:45 PM

Well the guardian who tanks the hard raids I attend usually hits 12k in a similar group settup. I have only 1 mystic (mostly masters) 1 dirge (mastered) and 1 warden (1 master spell, his tree ) to buff my HP. And my jewelry is still subpar for HP.
The cap is 70%? ok. Well on raid FIGHTS I rarely drop below 60% mit, and as of last night (got a couple new pieces of armor) I now have 58% sitting around during raids. Its going to go up, once I get the ring from Unrest and a better leggings than claymore. I easly hit 5k mit standing around in raids now, 6k mit is my next goal.

I believe the OP was regarding uncontested avoidence. I can't see how it would help unless your avoidence fell below 20% against an epic, which it never has for me. Couching, your answers are useless to me because I have not tested it myself. I will test it this weekend will post the results (and I hope a fraps If i can get it to worn T_T)

04-02-2007, 04:10 PM	#1
Almeric_CoS The L.G. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 381	Right now I'm a STA/INT Monk, in theory built for tanking. I used to be STR/STA, but switched things around when I noticed just how many extra hitpoints I could get from using certain weapons. But recently I was thinking about how our Def Stance dictates that we will ALWAYS parry 12.5% of attacks against us no matter what, including epics. Other boosts to parry, defense, deflection, and dodge will raise our avoidance, but that only helps a little bit against high end mobs, if at all. BUT, what about the riposte bonus from the KoS STR Brawler line? Pre-EoF-Revamp, at least, 8 points in that achievement added a flat 5% onto your avoidance. Is THAT achievement influenced by mob level, or is it a straight-out chance to riposte? If so, wouldn't that give us an effective avoidance basement of 17.5%? Makes me think that a full extra 5% avoidance that works on mobs of all difficulty would be better than the stats I get from my weapon. __________________ Almeric's Blog: He doesn't know the meaning of the word "concise!"

04-02-2007, 05:00 PM	#2
Geothe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,098	I was actually going to post something along these lines as well about that very AA. Have a newbie brawler that i'm leveling up, and haven't gotten to that AA yet, but, first AA point adds 1.5% riposte of all front damage, does dumping 8 points in it up it to 12% total? (ie, 1.5% per point). If so, that really does sound godly for a group tanking brawler. lol __________________ Smed: We aren't going to be allowing RMT in any way, shape or form on the non-exchange enabled EQ II servers. Period. End of statement. Smed: 5) This [LoN] is not some slippery slope towards selling items directly in EQ & EQ II. Lie #3: Station Cash. Enough Said.

04-02-2007, 06:07 PM	#3
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	Its deflect 12.5% or some number near that, I don't have eq2 at work. Any boost to avoidence helps against epics. I've been testing avoidence against even conned epics, and its within 5% of its display value. Sometimes up sometimes down, but its pretty good for a RNG. What is dodge? You can't just add avoidence like that. It is: 5% + (.95*12.5)% = 16.9% uncontested avoidence. I would not use STR line 5%, when you can get 4% riposte from slashing adorns, or +14 parry from piercing adorns(usually around 8% contested avoid). And still keep your stat bonus and AA points in parry and deflection. The INT final is actually nice for tanking, in the case where a mob does a bit hit aoe (usually unavoidable tosses EVERYONE into red) And an extra 1.4k mit is nice ^_^ Its usually ~ 8% mit. Which is ~480 less damage from a typical epic's strike. __________________

04-03-2007, 12:33 AM	#4
Almeric_CoS The L.G. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 381	Back in the pre-EoF day, the 5% riposting from Claw Reversal (now that I'm online I can look up names grin) added exactly 5% to your avoidance. But even if your math is right (and it certainly may be, I'm not going to argue it right now), it seems to me that 16.9% uncontested avoidance COULD be more handy than 4-ish% contested avoidance plus weapon stats. Avoidance seems to work well against heroics, but against epics I get slaughtered....some extra uncontested would be nice, IF it is, indeed, uncontested! __________________ Almeric's Blog: He doesn't know the meaning of the word "concise!"

04-03-2007, 11:56 AM	#6
Almeric_CoS The L.G. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 381	Nothing wrong with that IF you don't WANT to be a tank. It's nice that Monks have that option Just have to be smart enough to know the difference between a DPS build and a Tank build, and know the ways you should equip yourself for each! __________________ Almeric's Blog: He doesn't know the meaning of the word "concise!"

04-03-2007, 01:33 AM	#5
Couching Server: Crushbone Guild: Pwn Pwn Pwn Rank: CEO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,370	Avoidance is nice for heroic encounters. Though, for brawlers, we shouldn't worry about it. It's nice to get extra avoidance from our advanced achievements. Though, more likely, you can hit the avoidance cap easily with a bard. If you really want to enhance your tanking capability. Mitigation is all the way for brawlers. You can get Dragonscale Sash, Dragonscale earring and Dark Chitin Rings. It's 422 mitigations. Moreover, you can get extra 201 mitigations from adornments. None of the items is dropped in raid. Even you are a casual player, you can get it with determination. I have seen a lot of players complaining that monks cannot even tank in heroic encounters. I am not surprised since a lot of monks in my server have less than 2000 mitigations. They didn't gear themselves correctly. They have nice hp and stats but can't even tank a [Removed for Content].

04-03-2007, 12:17 PM	#7
Couching Server: Crushbone Guild: Pwn Pwn Pwn Rank: CEO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,370	Almeric@Permafrost wrote: Nothing wrong with that IF you don't WANT to be a tank. It's nice that Monks have that option Just have to be smart enough to know the difference between a DPS build and a Tank build, and know the ways you should equip yourself for each! That's sounds like a healer didn't want to heal but nuking. We are a fighter. We didn't have any advantage in dps no matter combat arts or auto-attack. Guardian and Pal did less damage in auto-attack but it was changed. Seriously, this is the problem of monk. We didn't have any advantage in dps with supbar tanking. If you think we have the option in tanking or dps, it's just because most players didn't know how to use Advanced Combat Tracker. They don't have a clue of which class is for dps. They thought we can dps just because we can't tank a [Removed for Content]. We can't heal. We can't debuff. Oh, look, this monk is duel wielding. He must be a dpser!

04-03-2007, 04:19 PM	#8
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	54% mit, 71% avoidence 11k hp raid buffed last saturday. With ACT against a named 70x4: 67% avoidence versus melee hits for the first pull (we failed, had some issues with the timing of the pull). 73% avoidence versus melee for the second pull. I had a zerker's avoidence buff on me, but I am only counting times the MY CHARACTER avoided hits. I can see an issue with both to-hit bonus on epics and the RNG. What I want to know are the following: Do plate tanks experiance a similar decrease in their actual chance to avoid? Is this decrease seriously debilitating(haha) as the mobs approch 75x4? To this end I will be having that same zerker try the epic. He's not geared as well as I am, but its not a hard named once we got the pull down. We will also go and do the Maestro again. and I will inspect my avoidence for that fight. __________________

04-03-2007, 05:15 PM	#9
Couching Server: Crushbone Guild: Pwn Pwn Pwn Rank: CEO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,370	DynamicPerformance wrote: 54% mit, 71% avoidence 11k hp raid buffed last saturday. With ACT against a named 70x4: 67% avoidence versus melee hits for the first pull (we failed, had some issues with the timing of the pull). 73% avoidence versus melee for the second pull. I had a zerker's avoidence buff on me, but I am only counting times the MY CHARACTER avoided hits. I can see an issue with both to-hit bonus on epics and the RNG. What I want to know are the following: Do plate tanks experiance a similar decrease in their actual chance to avoid? Is this decrease seriously debilitating(haha) as the mobs approch 75x4? To this end I will be having that same zerker try the epic. He's not geared as well as I am, but its not a hard named once we got the pull down. We will also go and do the Maestro again. and I will inspect my avoidence for that fight. Both mitigation and avoidance cap is 70%. It's worthless to get more than 70%. For your first question, yes. For your second question, yes. Mitigation is all the way unless you have 60% mitigation with group buff. Even plate tank, it's easy to get 70% avoidance in raid with proper gears. That's why brawler is [Removed for Content] as tank. Plate tank can hit 70% avoidance much easier than brawler to hit 60% mitigation. Moreover, uber tank can hit 70% avoidance and 65%+ mitigation in raid.

04-03-2007, 08:45 PM	#10
Anjin Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 423	DynamicPerformance wrote: 54% mit, 71% avoidence 11k hp raid buffed last saturday. With ACT against a named 70x4: 67% avoidence versus melee hits for the first pull (we failed, had some issues with the timing of the pull). 73% avoidence versus melee for the second pull. I had a zerker's avoidence buff on me, but I am only counting times the MY CHARACTER avoided hits. I can see an issue with both to-hit bonus on epics and the RNG. What I want to know are the following: Do plate tanks experiance a similar decrease in their actual chance to avoid? Is this decrease seriously debilitating(haha) as the mobs approch 75x4? To this end I will be having that same zerker try the epic. He's not geared as well as I am, but its not a hard named once we got the pull down. We will also go and do the Maestro again. and I will inspect my avoidence for that fight. What was the named? Also, 11K for a MT Monk is WAAAAAY too low, considering we take more spike DMG that a plate tank (a guardian can get 12k++ reasonably easily - 14k+ being good).

04-04-2007, 02:45 PM	#11
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	Well the guardian who tanks the hard raids I attend usually hits 12k in a similar group settup. I have only 1 mystic (mostly masters) 1 dirge (mastered) and 1 warden (1 master spell, his tree ) to buff my HP. And my jewelry is still subpar for HP. The cap is 70%? ok. Well on raid FIGHTS I rarely drop below 60% mit, and as of last night (got a couple new pieces of armor) I now have 58% sitting around during raids. Its going to go up, once I get the ring from Unrest and a better leggings than claymore. I easly hit 5k mit standing around in raids now, 6k mit is my next goal. I believe the OP was regarding uncontested avoidence. I can't see how it would help unless your avoidence fell below 20% against an epic, which it never has for me. Couching, your answers are useless to me because I have not tested it myself. I will test it this weekend will post the results (and I hope a fraps If i can get it to worn T_T) __________________