The 'ethics' of buying and selling - Page 4

Soldross · 03-29-2007, 09:12 PM

Proudfoot wrote:

On AB server, I would routinely log in to see that the 3 to 4 adept 1 books I had for sale were bought by the same person. Hmm /who person and they aren't a class that ANY of the books were for. 2 options; guildy snagging them for mates OR reseller cutting off others who may of needed those books only to make a bigger buck off of them. Welcome to the rank of Used Car Salesman.

Option 3 - Snagged them up to transmute them.

Ruut Li · 03-30-2007, 07:33 AM

zues your telling me Im getting too serious in this forum discussion? LOL! What about the person, for example, who relates broker activity in eq2 to terrorism in rl!? haha!

you just mad because I refuse to feel sorry for your game char, and you know my point is goooood. SMILEY

Those who start to judge broker activity, pointing fingers, tossing stones and saying this and that is unethical are the ones who are taking their hobby/entertainement way too seriously and deserve a little bit of healthy dose of flaming in an "angry tone".

/Oh wise one or Oh Sane person with common sense.

janmystique · 03-30-2007, 07:42 AM

I don't make a habit of buying for the sole purpose of reselling but have been known to do it. The main thing that encourages me to do it is when people have put crafted items up for sale at less than the cost of the fuel. I see these items only because I am going to put the same items for sale myself so know the fuel costs. Basically, I can't be bothered to try to find these items.

Like a lot of things, it is hard to say where something acceptable becomes unacceptable. I have my own standards I suppose. For example, I would never buy up the entire stock of an item on the broker simply to corner the market and get an inflated price for myself. There are pitfalls in the way of this succeeding anyway - like faster than you can resell, other people are putting the same item for sale at rapidly decreasing prices.

Trying to make a fortune by buying off the broker and reselling could just be a recipe for "speculating" but not "accumulating"!

liveja · 03-30-2007, 08:56 AM

Ruut Li wrote:

Those who start to judge broker activity, pointing fingers, tossing stones and saying this and that is unethical are the ones who are taking their hobby/entertainement way too seriously

QFT.

KBern · 03-30-2007, 10:12 AM

Sotaudi wrote:

Saurakk@Guk wrote:
Sotaudi wrote:
But the reason it peeves you is because the ethic, "Let the seller be honest" is also something we all recognize as important.
Thus, you can parse the wording all you want. But the very fact that the practice bothers you belies your contention that you do not think it is an unethical practice. Even so, you can hold both that it is unethical and perfectly legal without the slighest hint of hypocracy. Unethical and illegal are not synonyms.
So, yes, though you do not recognize it, you are making contradictory statements.
You're right, we can go around all day, but again, you are making a fallacious conclusion based on my "pet peeve".
An annoyanve or pet peeve does not equate to unethical. A pet peeve can be someone leaving the cap off of the toothpaste...it does not make it unethical.
A good example is a pet peeve of mine about pricing items in real markets as $19.99 as opposed to $20. It doesnt make it unethical, but it is a pet peeve.
Another pet peeve is the way car commercials have the low voice at the end speak 1,000 wpm about the disclaimer and legal statement. It is not unethical but that is another pet peeve.
Again there are no real ethics in the EQ2 broker...the buyer sees clearly what they are buying, and for what exact price.
No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. What I stated was that the reason this particular pet peeve, not any petty annoyance you may have in your life, was a pet peeve is that you reconginzed it as wrong and that is what made it unethical. You cannot seriously believe that there is any connection between that concept and that of leaving the top off of a toothpaste tube.
But, this is all pointless. You are sold on the this myth that there are no ethics involved because it is a free market. That means nothing anyone says is going to sway your opinion, even when they point out inconsistencies in your own arguments, even when they point out that unethical and legal are not mutually exclusive. The truth is, people make mistakes. But what is equally true is that unethical people will use that fact to make a dishonest profit, and the fact that they can get away with it becasue it is a "free market" does not change the ethics of the situation.
What is most amusing about all this is that the very reason you have to keep pointing out the principles of "Let the buyer beware" is that that very statement recognizes that there are unethical people out there who will do unethical things and that the buyer needs to watch out because they may not be able to do anything about it after the transaction is complete. It has nothing to do with relieving the seller of any moral responsibility. That means it is absolutely disingenous to claim that there are no ethics involved. Otherwise, you would not have to keep trying to shift the blame to the buyer.
So, no, we cannot go on about this all day.

See, actually we can...let me quote you so far...

"You are making contradictory statments here. If there was nothing unethical about this activity, it would not peeve you. The reason it bothers you is that you recognize the practice as an intentional attempt to deceive people. How is that not an unethical practice?"

Hmm there is the targeting of my pet peeve statement and trying to equate it with being unethical.

"Likewise, you said that the practice was a "pet peeve" of yours. Your words, not mine. So the question is, if there is nothing "wrong" with what is being done, why does it peeve you? The answer, of course, is that you see something wrong with the practice or you would not give it a second thought. "

Wow, there it is again...pet peeve = wrong = unethical....again...

"No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. "

Wow, a third time of you not equating pet peeves to being ethically wrong. SMILEY

But I won't go around with you anymore because it is a waste of time to try to argue with someone who is trying to tell someone how they think and what they mean.

Again, pet peeves, (even though you never said it /sarcasm) does not equate to ethics in any way, shape, or form.

Have fun playing.

Natturabi · 03-30-2007, 11:51 AM

Good subject, one that has been discussed much in the past. I personally disapprove of what I think of as market manipulation. (Ridiculous analogy SMILEY If Bill Gates or someone else with alot of capital decided to purchase all of the processed gasoline in the United States and resell it at twice the price, he could probably make quite a bit of cash. Eventually more gasoline would be produced and distributed at which point he could lower his price back to the norm and get out of the market. (legality/plausibility aside, it happens in EQII)

In EQII it is much more easy to temporarily corner a market, and is actually pretty common. I think the only problem lies in the fact that these goods that are being cornered are tagged as "no-value." I have always thought that all harvestable goods should have a value, based on tier. A player could sell to an NPC if they just wanted to harvest and make a little coin without playing the market. Likewise, these same harvests could be purchased from an NPC for a premium. It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players. We have all seen the NPC miners in Antonica endlessly toiling. What happens to the fruits of their labors? They could even use a system similar to UO. If more people are buying than selling, the NPC hedges his prices a little higher. If the market is glutted with harvesters the price dips. This could also reduce the broker clutter as people would no longer have to sell their 2c crap there.

Of course it isn't just harvests this occurs on, but I don't have a problem with most other buying/reselling as the seller does get the price they asked for.

Bozidar · 03-30-2007, 12:11 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote:

It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players.

I know, since it's not. You can go there and get it yourself, just like anything that any player puts on the broker.

Natturabi · 03-30-2007, 12:32 PM

Bozidar wrote:

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote:
It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players.
I know, since it's not. You can go there and get it yourself, just like anything that any player puts on the broker.

Yeah I missed the bit that anyone can go and get things for themselves. What I was trying to convey is that common commodities (perhaps even the rares?) only source should not be the player base. I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks.

I doubt the Bayles hit the broker to buy 10 billion carbonite clusters off Joe Playercharacter to build their lovely castle!

SignumX · 03-30-2007, 12:35 PM

Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear.

Bozidar · 03-30-2007, 01:36 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote:

Yeah I missed the bit that anyone can go and get things for themselves. What I was trying to convey is that common commodities (perhaps even the rares?) only source should not be the player base. I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks.
I doubt the Bayles hit the broker to buy 10 billion carbonite clusters off Joe Playercharacter to build their lovely castle!

This isn't real life. EQ2 doesn't have a Home Depot. In EQ2 you have to go to the quarry. The dwarves working at the quarry give their ore to their company, who build nice walls and buildings in the area..like castles. if you want precious stones you're gonna have to go ole' school '49ers and get it yourself.

The source of commodities above the level of what i would term "garbage" should be quests, and player base. If you can just go buy them from a vendor then they're not really commodities.

Bozidar · 03-30-2007, 01:38 PM

SignumX wrote:

Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear.

so what?

player A puts treasured item on the broker at a price he deems reasonable

Player B buys said item. Both players are happy.

Player C wants to have the item, but didn't get there first, and so he loses. Hopefully he goes out to get one of his own rather than chatting on the forum about the ethics involved with him being SOL.

Shadowtzer · 03-30-2007, 01:51 PM

Ok since reading this never ending debate, I have changed the way I price my items. I do keep in mind that the lower levels may not be able to afford a T3 item if it is priced above 40g and so I try to keep the items in a structured price range now. I have in the recent past bought up lower priced items and added them to my inventory because I feel that they are being ridiculous by extreme undercutting but that is my choice to do and its my coin that I am using to do so, thus my right. I am a firm believer, however in supply and demand so some of my items may be priced at the higher end of the cost range if I know for a fact that an item is in high demand. I do regularly compare my prices with others since I would like my items to sell faster and have been known to pull items off as well if there are too many who have undercutted so much that the profit margin is lost, again my right as a manufacturer of goods. But that is what happens, not everyone thinks about pricing the same way as I do.

My point here is that regardless of what other people do with their money and the market, it is their right. You all keep comparing to real life, but you need to remember that this is a game. Everyone here pays their monthly fee to play their game how they would like to, that is their right. Granted I disagree with people who price their items either a few copper above the suggested selling price, at that price or below but who am I to tell them how to play their game that they are paying for? Its them who will lose not me (unless I know its a high demand item and buy then out).

Laiina · 03-30-2007, 02:11 PM

valkyrja wrote:

In a game where every item you can sell has an endless supply, I see nothing wrong with it. The fact is, if you have bought up all of an item and are charging more than people are willing to pay, they will farm it an undercut you.

People seem to miss that part a lot though.

Time after time I see phrases like "cornering the market". When there is an endless free supply of anything, that simply is not possible.

You can place almost any item that is not super rare up on the broker, and within hours or even minutes, someone will undercut you.

Sometimes they undercut you to the point of being ridiculous, like I see 10g 10g 9g 2s for a scarce item. If I see that, I buy the 2s one and reprice it at 7g or so.

Laiina · 03-30-2007, 02:17 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote:

In EQII it is much more easy to temporarily corner a market, and is actually pretty common....

The key word here is "temporarily". I have seen several attempts to do so, and nearly all failed within minutes or a few hours at most.

A while back one of the Loams hit ove 3g each. Since that was far above the actual "value" considering the time it takes to harvest etc, it was only about 8 hours before hordes of harvesters had driven the price back down to 6s or so. And I see that one person has over 1800 for sale at 2g. I would suspect that he got burned in an attempt to corner the market...

Und3rt0w · 03-30-2007, 05:40 PM

SignumX wrote:

Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear

You know what's funny - I bet this happens a lot. On the AB broker, I've always wondered why there is so much crap Mastercrafted stuff on there now and so little superior treasured gear (as we the case when I was lvling my first character).

Thankfully I'm out of that and into Legendary and Fabled gear with my main, but it sucks for my alts (until they hit tier 7).

mellowknees72 · 03-30-2007, 06:11 PM

Ruut Li wrote:

zues your telling me Im getting too serious in this forum discussion? LOL! What about the person, for example, who relates broker activity in eq2 to terrorism in rl!? haha!

It was Zues who used that example in the first place:

ZUES wrote:

Well I and my guildies have decided to take a stand against it. We had a long debate in our guild forums about it.
Think of the United States with it's terrorism policy. Under NO circumstances will they give in to the demands of terrorists. How many terrorists or hijackers hit US planes, buses and transportaion any more? ZERO!
So I'm sorry if it hurts individual honest peeps but it's just wrong and I wont support it.

LOL...

Ruut Li · 03-30-2007, 06:44 PM

oh ROFL! [Removed for Content] im lazy. Thanks pipes /blush SMILEY

No wonder zues was upset with me.

liveja · 03-30-2007, 09:04 PM

Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote:

I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks.

Um ... let me get this straight ... you want to go to an NPC & buy tradeskill stuff, that you could otherwise get for free merely by going out & picking it up off the ground?

Aside from the very silliness of that notion, all by itself ... I can almost guarantee you would spend less buying from other players, even without going to the broker.

As for cornering of markets: please get it straight. It cannot be done, in a world like EQ2, where valued commodities refresh themselves endlessly & can be had for the taking.

Lord_Quaymar · 03-31-2007, 11:04 AM

TheWarparty wrote:

Had a very heated discussion with a freind last night about the ethics of making money through selling things at the broker.
It all boils down to one issue: Is it wrong to buy something that is for sale and then re-sell it for a highr price. (I jokingly reffer to this as 'playing the commodities market'.)
The mechanics talked about were this. Say I have a harvestable item (say tuber strands) for sale for 1 silver each. I log on one day and see that over a dozen people have under-cut my price and there are several hundred strands for under 20 copper each now available.
My friend says that I am morally bankrupt in that I would feel no shame in buying the cheaper stands and re-selling them at my regularly posted price. She claims I am 'playing God' with the brokers by buying low and selling high and am "cheating" the people who are selling them of thier hard work in harvesting/making stuff.
I think there is nothing reprehensible in it. The seller makes his own decision on what an item is worth and I am giving them what they asked for, not mugging them in a back alley, and re-selling at what I feel is a fair price. I do not feel that if some one sells something for 2 copper that usally sells for a gold that I am ripping them off, I am not my brothers keeper.
I am just wondering, and I the amoral butt head out here, or is my friend being a bit anuly retentive on this?? I doubt if anything anyone says here will change my mind, but I am curious what the EQ2 community thinks on this subject.

Your friend is a clueless [Removed for Content].

Randell44 · 04-01-2007, 03:19 PM

The issue is not black or white it all depends how your doing it and the average price of things. If you keep a stranglehold on the market buying all the low priced items of a certain type and reselling them for higher than yes your a butthead. If a bunch of people undercut you and sold stuff for really cheap prices then your a smart player to buy the items and resell at normal or slightly higher than normal price. I've done it several times and it's a judgement call each time, but generally if people are selling for much less than the accepted price then I see the potential for alot of profit without ripping anyone off since I will be selling them at a reasonable price. There is a line between smart business tactics and price gouging though. Those people who buy up all the rarer items and sell 2-5 times what they are worth should be shot. As for the people undercutting and selling at rediculously low prices....TY. You add to my profit margin.

03-29-2007, 09:12 PM	#91
Soldross Lord Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 32	Proudfoot wrote: On AB server, I would routinely log in to see that the 3 to 4 adept 1 books I had for sale were bought by the same person. Hmm /who person and they aren't a class that ANY of the books were for. 2 options; guildy snagging them for mates OR reseller cutting off others who may of needed those books only to make a bigger buck off of them. Welcome to the rank of Used Car Salesman. Option 3 - Snagged them up to transmute them. __________________

03-30-2007, 07:33 AM	#92
Ruut Li Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 561	zues your telling me Im getting too serious in this forum discussion? LOL! What about the person, for example, who relates broker activity in eq2 to terrorism in rl!? haha! you just mad because I refuse to feel sorry for your game char, and you know my point is goooood. Those who start to judge broker activity, pointing fingers, tossing stones and saying this and that is *unethical* are the ones who are taking their hobby/entertainement way too seriously and deserve a little bit of healthy dose of flaming in an "angry tone". /Oh wise one or Oh Sane person with common sense.

03-30-2007, 07:42 AM	#93
janmystique Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: England Posts: 379	I don't make a habit of buying for the sole purpose of reselling but have been known to do it. The main thing that encourages me to do it is when people have put crafted items up for sale at less than the cost of the fuel. I see these items only because I am going to put the same items for sale myself so know the fuel costs. Basically, I can't be bothered to try to find these items. Like a lot of things, it is hard to say where something acceptable becomes unacceptable. I have my own standards I suppose. For example, I would never buy up the entire stock of an item on the broker simply to corner the market and get an inflated price for myself. There are pitfalls in the way of this succeeding anyway - like faster than you can resell, other people are putting the same item for sale at rapidly decreasing prices. Trying to make a fortune by buying off the broker and reselling could just be a recipe for "speculating" but not "accumulating"! __________________

03-30-2007, 08:56 AM	#94
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Ruut Li wrote: Those who start to judge broker activity, pointing fingers, tossing stones and saying this and that is *unethical* are the ones who are taking their hobby/entertainement way too seriously QFT. __________________

03-30-2007, 10:12 AM	#95
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	Sotaudi wrote: Saurakk@Guk wrote: Sotaudi wrote: But the reason it peeves you is because the ethic, "Let the seller be honest" is also something we all recognize as important. Thus, you can parse the wording all you want. But the very fact that the practice bothers you belies your contention that you do not think it is an unethical practice. Even so, you can hold both that it is unethical and perfectly legal without the slighest hint of hypocracy. Unethical and illegal are not synonyms. So, yes, though you do not recognize it, you are making contradictory statements. You're right, we can go around all day, but again, you are making a fallacious conclusion based on my "pet peeve". An annoyanve or pet peeve does not equate to unethical. A pet peeve can be someone leaving the cap off of the toothpaste...it does not make it unethical. A good example is a pet peeve of mine about pricing items in real markets as $19.99 as opposed to $20. It doesnt make it unethical, but it is a pet peeve. Another pet peeve is the way car commercials have the low voice at the end speak 1,000 wpm about the disclaimer and legal statement. It is not unethical but that is another pet peeve. Again there are no real ethics in the EQ2 broker...the buyer sees clearly what they are buying, and for what exact price. No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. What I stated was that the reason this particular pet peeve, not any petty annoyance you may have in your life, was a pet peeve is that you reconginzed it as wrong and that is what made it unethical. You cannot seriously believe that there is any connection between that concept and that of leaving the top off of a toothpaste tube. But, this is all pointless. You are sold on the this myth that there are no ethics involved because it is a free market. That means nothing anyone says is going to sway your opinion, even when they point out inconsistencies in your own arguments, even when they point out that unethical and legal are not mutually exclusive. The truth is, people make mistakes. But what is equally true is that unethical people will use that fact to make a dishonest profit, and the fact that they can get away with it becasue it is a "free market" does not change the ethics of the situation. What is most amusing about all this is that the very reason you have to keep pointing out the principles of "Let the buyer beware" is that that very statement recognizes that there are unethical people out there who will do unethical things and that the buyer needs to watch out because they may not be able to do anything about it after the transaction is complete. It has nothing to do with relieving the seller of any moral responsibility. That means it is absolutely disingenous to claim that there are no ethics involved. Otherwise, you would not have to keep trying to shift the blame to the buyer. So, no, we cannot go on about this all day. See, actually we can...let me quote you so far... "You are making contradictory statments here. If there was nothing unethical about this activity, it would not peeve you. The reason it bothers you is that you recognize the practice as an intentional attempt to deceive people. How is that not an unethical practice?" Hmm there is the targeting of my pet peeve statement and trying to equate it with being unethical. "Likewise, you said that the practice was a "pet peeve" of yours. Your words, not mine. So the question is, if there is nothing "wrong" with what is being done, why does it peeve you? The answer, of course, is that you see something wrong with the practice or you would not give it a second thought. " Wow, there it is again...pet peeve = wrong = unethical....again... "No, we cannot go around all day on this. You are now creating straw-man arguments and tearing them down. Nowhere did I even remotely equate pet peeves with unethical. I equated "wrong" (as in morally wrong) with unethical because ethics are what determine moral rights and wrong. " Wow, a third time of you not equating pet peeves to being ethically wrong. But I won't go around with you anymore because it is a waste of time to try to argue with someone who is trying to tell someone how they think and what they mean. Again, pet peeves, (even though you never said it /sarcasm) does not equate to ethics in any way, shape, or form. Have fun playing. __________________

03-30-2007, 11:51 AM	#96
Natturabi Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 85	Good subject, one that has been discussed much in the past. I personally disapprove of what I think of as market manipulation. (Ridiculous analogyIf Bill Gates or someone else with alot of capital decided to purchase all of the processed gasoline in the United States and resell it at twice the price, he could probably make quite a bit of cash. Eventually more gasoline would be produced and distributed at which point he could lower his price back to the norm and get out of the market. (legality/plausibility aside, it happens in EQII) In EQII it is much more easy to temporarily corner a market, and is actually pretty common. I think the only problem lies in the fact that these goods that are being cornered are tagged as "no-value." I have always thought that all harvestable goods should have a value, based on tier. A player could sell to an NPC if they just wanted to harvest and make a little coin without playing the market. Likewise, these same harvests could be purchased from an NPC for a premium. It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players. We have all seen the NPC miners in Antonica endlessly toiling. What happens to the fruits of their labors? They could even use a system similar to UO. If more people are buying than selling, the NPC hedges his prices a little higher. If the market is glutted with harvesters the price dips. This could also reduce the broker clutter as people would no longer have to sell their 2c crap there. Of course it isn't just harvests this occurs on, but I don't have a problem with most other buying/reselling as the seller does get the price they asked for. __________________

03-30-2007, 12:11 PM	#97
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players. I know, since it's not. You can go there and get it yourself, just like anything that any player puts on the broker.

03-30-2007, 12:32 PM	#98
Natturabi Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 85	Bozidar wrote: Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: It is ridiculous to think that the only source of these commodoties are other players. I know, since it's not. You can go there and get it yourself, just like anything that any player puts on the broker. Yeah I missed the bit that anyone can go and get things for themselves. What I was trying to convey is that common commodities (perhaps even the rares?) only source should not be the player base. I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks. I doubt the Bayles hit the broker to buy 10 billion carbonite clusters off Joe Playercharacter to build their lovely castle! __________________

03-30-2007, 12:35 PM	#99
SignumX Champion Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 51	Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear.

03-30-2007, 01:36 PM	#100
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: Yeah I missed the bit that anyone can go and get things for themselves. What I was trying to convey is that common commodities (perhaps even the rares?) only source should not be the player base. I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks. I doubt the Bayles hit the broker to buy 10 billion carbonite clusters off Joe Playercharacter to build their lovely castle! This isn't real life. EQ2 doesn't have a Home Depot. In EQ2 you have to go to the quarry. The dwarves working at the quarry give their ore to their company, who build nice walls and buildings in the area..like castles. if you want precious stones you're gonna have to go ole' school '49ers and get it yourself. The source of commodities above the level of what i would term "garbage" should be quests, and player base. If you can just go buy them from a vendor then they're not really commodities.

03-30-2007, 01:38 PM	#101
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	SignumX wrote: Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear. so what? player A puts treasured item on the broker at a price he deems reasonable Player B buys said item. Both players are happy. Player C wants to have the item, but didn't get there first, and so he loses. Hopefully he goes out to get one of his own rather than chatting on the forum about the ethics involved with him being SOL.

03-30-2007, 01:51 PM	#102
Shadowtzer Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Norrath Posts: 49	Ok since reading this never ending debate, I have changed the way I price my items. I do keep in mind that the lower levels may not be able to afford a T3 item if it is priced above 40g and so I try to keep the items in a structured price range now. I have in the recent past bought up lower priced items and added them to my inventory because I feel that they are being ridiculous by extreme undercutting but that is my choice to do and its my coin that I am using to do so, thus my right. I am a firm believer, however in supply and demand so some of my items may be priced at the higher end of the cost range if I know for a fact that an item is in high demand. I do regularly compare my prices with others since I would like my items to sell faster and have been known to pull items off as well if there are too many who have undercutted so much that the profit margin is lost, again my right as a manufacturer of goods. But that is what happens, not everyone thinks about pricing the same way as I do. My point here is that regardless of what other people do with their money and the market, it is their right. You all keep comparing to real life, but you need to remember that this is a game. Everyone here pays their monthly fee to play their game how they would like to, that is their right. Granted I disagree with people who price their items either a few copper above the suggested selling price, at that price or below but who am I to tell them how to play their game that they are paying for? Its them who will lose not me (unless I know its a high demand item and buy then out).

03-30-2007, 02:11 PM	#103
Laiina Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 622	valkyrja wrote: In a game where every item you can sell has an endless supply, I see nothing wrong with it. The fact is, if you have bought up all of an item and are charging more than people are willing to pay, they will farm it an undercut you. People seem to miss that part a lot though. Time after time I see phrases like "cornering the market". When there is an endless free supply of anything, that simply is not possible. You can place almost any item that is not super rare up on the broker, and within hours or even minutes, someone will undercut you. Sometimes they undercut you to the point of being ridiculous, like I see 10g 10g 9g 2s for a scarce item. If I see that, I buy the 2s one and reprice it at 7g or so. __________________

03-30-2007, 02:17 PM	#104
Laiina Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 622	Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: In EQII it is much more easy to temporarily corner a market, and is actually pretty common.... The key word here is "temporarily". I have seen several attempts to do so, and nearly all failed within minutes or a few hours at most. A while back one of the Loams hit ove 3g each. Since that was far above the actual "value" considering the time it takes to harvest etc, it was only about 8 hours before hordes of harvesters had driven the price back down to 6s or so. And I see that one person has over 1800 for sale at 2g. I would suspect that he got burned in an attempt to corner the market... __________________

03-30-2007, 05:40 PM	#105
Und3rt0w Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 70	SignumX wrote: Ethics , try this one i know someone who not only buys cheap items to tranmute so lowbies cant he buys anything he considers a good treasured item too so people will have to look at buying his mastercrafted gear You know what's funny - I bet this happens a lot. On the AB broker, I've always wondered why there is so much crap Mastercrafted stuff on there now and so little superior treasured gear (as we the case when I was lvling my first character). Thankfully I'm out of that and into Legendary and Fabled gear with my main, but it sucks for my alts (until they hit tier 7).

03-30-2007, 06:11 PM	#106
mellowknees72 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Your Dad's House Posts: 779	Ruut Li wrote: zues your telling me Im getting too serious in this forum discussion? LOL! What about the person, for example, who relates broker activity in eq2 to terrorism in rl!? haha! It was Zues who used that example in the first place: ZUES wrote: Well I and my guildies have decided to take a stand against it. We had a long debate in our guild forums about it. Think of the United States with it's terrorism policy. Under NO circumstances will they give in to the demands of terrorists. How many terrorists or hijackers hit US planes, buses and transportaion any more? ZERO! So I'm sorry if it hurts individual honest peeps but it's just wrong and I wont support it. LOL... __________________

03-30-2007, 06:44 PM	#107
Ruut Li Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 561	oh ROFL! [Removed for Content] im lazy. Thanks pipes /blush No wonder zues was upset with me.

03-30-2007, 09:04 PM	#108
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Guillermo@Butcherblock wrote: I know you can go down to Home Depot and get some landscaping rocks, you shouldn't have to personally go to the quarry with a pick and shovel or pay your neighbor for some of his harvested rocks. Um ... let me get this straight ... you want to go to an NPC & buy tradeskill stuff, that you could otherwise get for free merely by going out & picking it up off the ground? Aside from the very silliness of that notion, all by itself ... I can almost guarantee you would spend less buying from other players, even without going to the broker. As for cornering of markets: please get it straight. It cannot be done, in a world like EQ2, where valued commodities refresh themselves endlessly & can be had for the taking. __________________

03-31-2007, 11:04 AM	#109
Lord_Quaymar Lord Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 260	TheWarparty wrote: Had a very heated discussion with a freind last night about the ethics of making money through selling things at the broker. It all boils down to one issue: Is it wrong to buy something that is for sale and then re-sell it for a highr price. (I jokingly reffer to this as 'playing the commodities market'.) The mechanics talked about were this. Say I have a harvestable item (say tuber strands) for sale for 1 silver each. I log on one day and see that over a dozen people have under-cut my price and there are several hundred strands for under 20 copper each now available. My friend says that I am morally bankrupt in that I would feel no shame in buying the cheaper stands and re-selling them at my regularly posted price. She claims I am 'playing God' with the brokers by buying low and selling high and am "cheating" the people who are selling them of thier hard work in harvesting/making stuff. I think there is nothing reprehensible in it. The seller makes his own decision on what an item is worth and I am giving them what they asked for, not mugging them in a back alley, and re-selling at what I feel is a fair price. I do not feel that if some one sells something for 2 copper that usally sells for a gold that I am ripping them off, I am not my brothers keeper. I am just wondering, and I the amoral butt head out here, or is my friend being a bit anuly retentive on this?? I doubt if anything anyone says here will change my mind, but I am curious what the EQ2 community thinks on this subject. Your friend is a clueless [Removed for Content]. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Political correctness is a deadly disease.

04-01-2007, 03:19 PM	#110
Randell44 Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 80	The issue is not black or white it all depends how your doing it and the average price of things. If you keep a stranglehold on the market buying all the low priced items of a certain type and reselling them for higher than yes your a butthead. If a bunch of people undercut you and sold stuff for really cheap prices then your a smart player to buy the items and resell at normal or slightly higher than normal price. I've done it several times and it's a judgement call each time, but generally if people are selling for much less than the accepted price then I see the potential for alot of profit without ripping anyone off since I will be selling them at a reasonable price. There is a line between smart business tactics and price gouging though. Those people who buy up all the rarer items and sell 2-5 times what they are worth should be shot. As for the people undercutting and selling at rediculously low prices....TY. You add to my profit margin.