AA's for raiding Warden

[danam314]

I'm a raiding warden, I'm always in the MT group, and lately I've been playing around with my AA's. I haven't found anything that I REALLY like enough to keep. I'm not too worried about dps, since my main goal is to heal. I have 96 AA's (47 in each tree atm, and 2 unused). I'm looking for the most heals/cures/power regen for my buck. Here's my current set up... which I'm looking to respec. If there's something I'm missing that may help me, I'd love to hear it.

KoS Tree: 1 starter point STR - 4 points (I did it for the extra weight) AGI - 6-4-4-8-1 (I'm finding that I don't need the AE avoidance, since I have a bard in my group. And, I am liking the wild regen ability, so far). STA - 4-4-4-6

EoF Tree: 4 points in the single target root, 5 in SoW, 4 in group root, 5 in deaggro, 1 for natures walk. 5 points in rez, 5 in spirit of the bat ( I respeced out of spores but i'm considering getting it back...thoughts?) 4 points each for nox, elemental and arcane cure. 5 in trauma. 1 in group elemental.

I know my trees are all messed right now, but I've been trying some different things out to see what will work best for me. Any feedback would be great. Thanks!

 Edit: I forgot to add that I'm not interested in going melee.

[Mafdet]

Response in AA terms:

For KoS: Put an "X" through your STR line (no melee thing). Put an "X" through your INT line (you don't care about dps). Pretty sure that leaves you with two lines to fill in and plenty of pts to do so... nothing to give advice on.

For EoF: You have the regrowth line (spores, SotB, etc.) which is pretty automatic. Lose the ones that don't affect epic targets or raid performance. Put an "X" through the CA's (no melee thing) That leaves you one line choice: again, with plenty of pts left to do so... nothing to give advice on.

Maybe I should ask if you care to clarify your question, I'm not seeing one to answer.

Edited to add: If you care to change your question to "How can I maximize my setup and performance as a raiding warden?" and wouldn't mind losing some of your "I'm not interested in"s, may I offer some suggested reading? You may wish to do a search on all posts by Dragonrealms and Nexiia. I believe they are our two most prolific high end raiding wardens.

ROFL, Edited again: Gosh darn it, there are 5 KoS lines... why I always forget about that useless Wis one, I just don't know, LoL.

[Dragonreal]

Mafdet wrote:

ROFL, Edited again: Gosh darn it, there are 5 KoS lines... why I always forget about that useless Wis one, I just don't know, LoL.

Because it's useless in PVE? ;P For someone who wants non-melee I'd try: KOS: Sta: 4848 Agi: 4448 Then either 5 into wis or pick up one or both end-lines for sta/agi and put leftovers into wis EOF: Movement: 4 each into the roots, 5 each into SoW and deaggro, 1 Nature's Walk Cures: 4 into all single target and group cures Renewal: 4 rez, 5 sotb or Movement: 4 each into the roots, 5 each into SoW and deaggro, 1 Nature's Walk Renewal: 5 rez, 5 sotb, 4 spores, 5 tree, 5 anti-deaths, 1 Reformation Wardens: 5 wolf form 1 point leftover.. stick it in single target root or something I'd guess I don't put much stock into the cures since the nerf to them, and tbh I don't put much stock into going full-out defensive like this either because I just don't feel the extra "defensive" things we get from it bring as much benefit as speccing into our secondary role (damage) would. Just recently I made a 1k ZW parse because of the melee line; that's pretty good dps for a healer (several fights that raid I approached the 1.4k dps mark) so the idea that it's not possible for us to do good damage just isn't true.. yes it's more complicated and difficult, but there are good returns from it if you put the effort into it. And I still can and do push out the healing numbers when it's really needed (last wuoshi fight we did, for instance, I was top of the heal parse the entire time).

[Formangenavn]

I have seen you mention 1.4 k dps before Dragonrealms. IMHO your dps on a raid has as much to do about what grp you are inn as how you are equiped. It realy means nothing. Was it done in 2 sec vs lots of mobs or zonewide? (I would think not).

Why not inform everyone about their dps solo vs, say a blue heroic 3 arrows? That way those numbers could actually be useful. Others could see what they get, and either be happy about them selfs or try to find ways for improving their caracter.

Personally I think thats a lot more produktive.

Sorry for the derailing.

Btw. I usually parse around 350-400 vs such a mob. Nothing impressive, but then my str isnt very high.

[Dragonreal]

Actually I've never once said 1.4k before... I quoted 1.2k before though and I'd never said any of my zonewides. Do you really think I'm so stupid as to quote numbers from a seconds long fight and think that'll mean we get uber dps? And I have said many times before, these are standard main tank group numbers, which I actually would think would be much more applicable in this situation since I'm talking to a raid warden whose place is in the mt grp and who can get the same gear I have if he really wanted to. Why should my solo dps matter anymore to him than it does to me? Hell chances are, nothing I have to say about the melee line matters at all to him but I gave my opinion on it anyway, mostly to give my reasons why I take it as a raid warden on the off-chance it gives the op a different way to think of it.

[Formangenavn]

Why blow this out of proportion? Well I am sorry I thought I read 1.4 before but it most have been 1.2. It will never happen again, and it wasnt the point of my post.

Numbers only means something if one can relate to them. A number from a raid parse without grp setup, what mob, how long it took and so on means I can never ever hope to try and replicate the situation.

A parse from one said mob solo I can relate to. Even if I have all the info from your raid, I would have to get equivalently equiped raid (impossible), get to same mob in same raid and have my raid kill it in the same time you did (impossible)

Why this doesnt make sence I do not understand.

[Barand]

It doesn't really make sense because solo and raid DPS are very different. You dont wear the same gear and probably dont cast the same thing. I parse around 1K in raid and maybe 400 in solo This is just an average i think, you will see sometimes 1400 DPS and other times 500 DPS depending on the fight, but on almost every zone trash, the average will be aroubnd 1K.

[Formangenavn]

 I agree, but what numbers can other wardens or even other healers relate to? The one posted vs one mob or the one posted on raid?

On raid there are to many things that influence the result and those numbers can therfore not be compared. I see templars report 600-800 dps solo, then I see one warden reporting 1400 dps. People will just see the numbers and think, wow, wardens out dps templars by a factor of 2, not seeing what lies behind the numbers. Read the templar and mystic forums. They complain about the DRUID dps.

I must admit, it bothers me when people draw conclutions on false or wrongly analyzed numbers, but people do it all the time. If everyone was a little bit more accurate in what they where saying, misunderstandings would be avoided a great deal more.

You do around 400 dps solo? THAT is a number I can relate and compare myself with. So can other classes.

Thank you for the response btw

Edit: One other thing about solo dps. If two wardens do 400 dps solo, then there is no reason why they shouldnt have the same dps on raid. If it is different it is more likely because of everyone/someone else. This can NOT be said the other way around though .

[Mafdet]

Formangenavn,

I don't solo. Solo numbers don't mean much to me. Don't see how they mean much to you, unless you know which "Blue Triple Up" we're talking about, either. I do duo and group, so I fight tons of said mobs... some I kick butt on and some I don't do as well... because there are more than one kind of heroic mob, with different defenses and resistances, just like there are different raid mobs.

Also, if two wardens with different aa setups do the same on a specific blue triple up, it doesn't mean they will or can perform the same on a different blue triple up mob, much less in any given raid: you just aren't naming enough variables and a negligible solo performance margin could equate to a much more noticeable gap in raid.

Hearing group make up and what zone a zone wide parse is attached to would be most helpful, but everyone knows that any zone wide parse is not only dependent on your group and your buffs, but entire raid performance: if it takes your raid three hours to clear FT and takes my raid 1.5 hrs to clear FT, well, to say your numbers don't mean the same as mine is an understatement.

What we are looking at is ball park on a "best of" situation. That's all you're gonna get because that's all you can get. Personally, I'm grateful for anyone posting what they can crank out (both hps and dps, with as much context as possible), because I know not to take it out of context and it gives me an idea of my potential. Ryala's guild kills Wuoshi while my guild hasn't gotten past Tender. I would think that means I'm not only looking at a warden with access to better/more loot, but with a raid force that coordinates better; cranks much better debuffs, buffs and overall dps; and generally kicks butt a lot quicker. So basically, I realize I'm not gonna match it, but I know from Ryala's reports that 1k zone wide is possible.

Now, my change over to melee is fairly recent but piece of gear, by piece of gear, I'm climbing the charts because I know there are others doing better, because they have told me so. If no one had bothered, well, I probably wouldn't even have tried melee because it sounded bogus to me when it first came out and I'd be screaming bloody murder that wardens are [Removed for Content]!

So, by all means, bash those that take Ryala's numbers out of context in comparing wardens between themselves or with other classes, but please don't bash raiding wardens for sharing raiding experience. If you haven't noticed, there's rather a dearth of them that bother to do so.

Edited to try and concentrate on the point... I'm rambling this morning and it sucks :/ Actually, I think I have a way to make it really simple. You never asked what Ryala's clerics and shamans were pushing in the same raid that 1k zone wide came up, or on the 1.2k fights... wouldn't that one simple question provide you the context you so desperately crave???

[Gwen]

My Monk'like Stuff is crap atm (Tarinax BP, Talendor bracer, rest is legend/treasured) and i use Prismatic Keeper Staff. Im at around 525DPS solo, 950DPS raid (Im in MT group, and its if i heal a few), and im pretty sure i would do ~1400+ if i was in a DPS Group and buffed like a DPS. But, what really affect my DPS ? Its not my stuff, its not my group, its really if i have to heal :p I have read a lot about Melee Shammy/Templar ... yeah, they outdps us if they only do dps ... but if you have to heal/cure/debuff and DPS .. we will outheal, and outdps them KoS weapons (regarding DPS) for priest were REALLY crap, but it have changed with EoF (Hi, EH!), i cant wait to parse with one of those 6-8s dly weapons ... with my 65% haste selfbuff, it cant dish out some nice numbers

[Dragonreal]

Mafdet wrote:

Formangenavn,

I don't solo. Solo numbers don't mean much to me. Don't see how they mean much to you, unless you know which "Blue Triple Up" we're talking about, either. I do duo and group, so I fight tons of said mobs... some I kick butt on and some I don't do as well... because there are more than one kind of heroic mob, with different defenses and resistances, just like there are different raid mobs.

Also, if two wardens with different aa setups do the same on a specific blue triple up, it doesn't mean they will or can perform the same on a different blue triple up mob, much less in any given raid: you just aren't naming enough variables and a negligible solo performance margin could equate to a much more noticeable gap in raid.

Hearing group make up and what zone a zone wide parse is attached to would be most helpful, but everyone knows that any zone wide parse is not only dependent on your group and your buffs, but entire raid performance: if it takes your raid three hours to clear FT and takes my raid 1.5 hrs to clear FT, well, to say your numbers don't mean the same as mine is an understatement.

What we are looking at is ball park on a "best of" situation. That's all you're gonna get because that's all you can get. Personally, I'm grateful for anyone posting what they can crank out (both hps and dps, with as much context as possible), because I know not to take it out of context and it gives me an idea of my potential. Ryala's guild kills Wuoshi while my guild hasn't gotten past Tender. I would think that means I'm not only looking at a warden with access to better/more loot, but with a raid force that coordinates better; cranks much better debuffs, buffs and overall dps; and generally kicks butt a lot quicker. So basically, I realize I'm not gonna match it, but I know from Ryala's reports that 1k zone wide is possible.

Now, my change over to melee is fairly recent but piece of gear, by piece of gear, I'm climbing the charts because I know there are others doing better, because they have told me so. If no one had bothered, well, I probably wouldn't even have tried melee because it sounded bogus to me when it first came out and I'd be screaming bloody murder that wardens are [Removed for Content]!

So, by all means, bash those that take Ryala's numbers out of context in comparing wardens between themselves or with other classes, but please don't bash raiding wardens for sharing raiding experience. If you haven't noticed, there's rather a dearth of them that bother to do so.

Edited to try and concentrate on the point... I'm rambling this morning and it sucks :/ Actually, I think I have a way to make it really simple. You never asked what Ryala's clerics and shamans were pushing in the same raid that 1k zone wide came up, or on the 1.2k fights... wouldn't that one simple question provide you the context you so desperately crave???

Ty for understanding what I'm saying and just exactly WHO I'm trying to relate to when I post parses. Idc about soloing or non-raid encounters at all and therefore I'm not going to post anything that will relate to that.. what I DO care about is raiding and what can and can't be done on a raid and specifically what can I , as an mt grp warden, give to my raid. My solo dps against some random blue ^^^ isn't gonna matter diddly squat to anyone.. especially when it's something I'll NEVER do because that is not my playstyle. The post I first made in this thread very much relates to the op because he is the same thing I am, a raid warden in the mt grp who's looking to maximize his benefits to the raid. Now, I know he doesn't want to do it with melee, so I gave what AA setup I would use if I were to drop the melee stuff (again), and then I also posted what kinds of things are POSSIBLE (not saying you WILL get these results but if you can get the gear for it, then there's no reason you can't get them) in relation to RAIDING and from an mt grp perspective. How anyone can say that the person I was addressing the post to can't relate to that is beyond me, but I'm glad that at least one person on these forums sees what my point is in posting those numbers. And just because it was mentioned and I did leave it out, unintentionally, the 1k ZW was from our last HoS run; the NEAR 1.4k numbers are, as I said, the highs I got on a few of the fights in there (sorry I don't remember which ones, but they were trash.. probably those annoying roamers that like to ambush your raid when you're not expecting it). My average for dps is in the 900-1kish range.. mebbe a bit higher now after I've switched back to melee and gotten some slightly better gear and AA setup for it, but that's just a ballpark from the parses I saw the guild posting after most of the fights during the raid, while the 1k zw I pulled straight out of the parse file. And btw, on the loot subject.. if you can kill CD, the first named in FTH, do the zek questline, and basically just clear out all of the KoS raid zones, you can get the same loot that I have. The better gear that I have from the harder fights actually is my healing gear.. for my dps gear, I refuse to bid against scouts/brawlers in my guild because dps is my secondary role versus being the primary role for them, so it kinda doesn't leave the newer, better gear open to me until the rest of the scouts have been geared out in it first.

[danam314]

Thank you so much dragon. It gives me something else to consider. It's much appreciated.

[Formangenavn]

Why not act mature Mafdet? I dont bash those that raid. I was asking a simple question in my first post Because Dragon is the one I have seen posting the highest parses and therfore might also have among the highest solo dps. IMO solo dps is the best way to compare yourself to others. Use your parses any way you like, I am not saying parses can only be used in one way, but for my question I think that is the best way of doing it. Feel free to think differently.

All this noice just because of a simple request. I just wanted to know what I could parse compared to others. Perhaps your goal is to compare to your self. What do I know.

 A few other things Mafdet. Yes, you would have to tell what mob to solo. What would shammies and clerics parse? No, that question wouldnt answer anything.

[Mafdet]

Formangenavn wrote:

Why not act mature Mafdet? I dont bash those that raid. I was asking a simple question in my first post Because Dragon is the one I have seen posting the highest parses and therfore might also have among the highest solo dps. IMO solo dps is the best way to compare yourself to others. Use your parses any way you like, I am not saying parses can only be used in one way, but for my question I think that is the best way of doing it. Feel free to think differently.

All this noice just because of a simple request. I just wanted to know what I could parse compared to others. Perhaps your goal is to compare to your self. What do I know.

 A few other things Mafdet. Yes, you would have to tell what mob to solo. What would shammies and clerics parse? No, that question wouldnt answer anything.

If acting mature equals debating an opposing point of view without stooping to name call or huff about, I believe I already do. If acting mature equals agreeing with your point of view, I have to answer with a simple, "because I don't agree with you".

I'm not answering the remainder of your post because it doesn't look like any worthwhile discussion would result and it would only further derail the OP.  I simply stand by my previous posts and feel quite free to think as I wish, with or without your permission.

Edited to add clarification.

[Nexiia]

So yeah, aside from all the stupid bickering...  ... Op, consider the melee line. Not necessarily for the dps, since as you said you are not concerned with that for the most part. More for the Heal proc on the group, you may find it more useful than the Agi line's wild regeneration. Personally I specced into melee line and CA's for additional heal proccing while meleeing and dps when heals are not a huge focus, for example, zones where alot of trash resides I can focus more on assisting with clearing it as fast and efficiently as possible due to the dps and heals coming from the meleeing itself. To actually do the dps aspect of it you need to change up gear slightly , but if you're not concerned with the damage as a main priority the melee heal procs are really cool. Especially for mobs like wuoshi who have large hit boxes. It's been great fun for me, and I doubt I'll ever spec back out of it.

[Mafdet]

Didn't think about it that way, Naie. My guildies were happy with my healing, I was just looking for more function, without losing that ability, and melee seemed to fit the bill. For an example to the OP from a non-uber raiding warden (~500str - MT group buffed, with melee skill buff on MT), I looked up my most recent long duration parse and found the following:

parse duration, 1:01:44 duration

% to melee hit: 55.69

extdps, melee out: 99.77

Natural Boon, exthps: 11.67

tl Natural Boon: 47,715 out of 663, 954 tl healed out = 7% of my heals coming from melee proc

Edited to add: Actually didn't even consider melee until group cures were nerfed. Would have taken healing improvements over additional functionality if I would have seen that possibility. And no, I can not make a post with just one try at it :/

Edited again: The point being that those that can actually hit the mobs... would have to be cranking some seriously decent healing procs!

[Nexiia]

Lol, Grab some haste items , have an illusionist throw on haste/double attack and start hittin' the mob with a really fast 1h and you're going to be proccing alot. heh Good luck getting all that off an illu though. Dps would Cry.

[Chay]

seems this thread got off topic fast

[Nexiia]

Seems like it was headed back on topic until your previous post. /sigh. Way to suck.

[Dragonreal]

Naie@Guk wrote:

Lol, Grab some haste items , have an illusionist throw on haste/double attack and start hittin' the mob with a really fast 1h and you're going to be proccing alot. heh Good luck getting all that off an illu though. Dps would Cry.

That's why I like MT grp heh easier to get buffs from ppl then.. coercer already has a free conc slot so you can get a dps buff easily, and the dirge melee buffs are group-wide as well as shammy haste, str, templar +proc%, and guardian +skill (this assumes mt grp is guard coercer dirge temp shammy warden). But those buffs for the most part just help out dps.. only a few help for heal procs and prolly wouldn't help as much as an illu's buffs would. I'd never be able to get illu buffs in my guild though so it's gonna be pretty guild-dependant I guess.

[Barand]

much easier for us we dont have an illu lol But with dirge and coercer and all possible proc at a time up (str ring, marr cloak... ) on me i already get at 120 haste / 140 dps mod, that was amazing

[Quicksote]

Blah I wanted to see what gear you're using for melee spec Ryala.  Why did you have to block your character page ? 

[Skivley101]

To: Formangenavn

I know its a little late to get involved in this thread derail discussion .... But just wanted to say I had a very similar discussion with Ryala in a diff thread.

So i kinda understand where your commin from on this subject ... And mafdet (Thanx) seems to aggree with where i drew my conclusion on the subject.

That the raid make up and the people behind the buttons are going to make a big difference in what you as a warden will actually parse.

I mean .... You have the same buttons they do...with same reuse timers ....so they cant actually be that different in raw output numbers.

Its just that dps ....measures damage per sec on average .... so time is a big factor... dont forget that one....seems like some people do.

Your 400 dps on blue ^^^ solo sounds average or slightly above...so if you wanted to know where you stack up....there ya go.

But in the end ....does it really matter???

[Sorano]

For a raiding warden I would suggest maxing out the kos agi line and taking the ae avoidance. When used correctly it is gold.

[Skivley101]

If your talking about golden abilities ... then there are atleast 2 more .... immunity to stun on sta line and the 75% mele crits on the CA line ... IDK mebe the shatter infection...not sure yet.

[Rangequest]

Elyssa@Najena wrote:

For a raiding warden I would suggest maxing out the kos agi line and taking the ae avoidance. When used correctly it is gold.

I have considered this.  The time compression was the only benefit I saw on the line.  Is the reason for the ae avoidance for yourself or for your group though?  If within the named strats it would benefit the group I would say you are right it is gold, but I figured the 3m protection range was rather limiting.  Are you finding that within the strat you are able to get your group within 3m frequently enough for them to actually receive the protection?

I have thought that this is more likely to be useful more for furies which can easily get into a bundle with their caster group. Rather than a warden who is likely separated from the MT group.

But then again the MT healers can bundle together and they would at least gain the protection - so maybe....

Shoot and I just respec'd from STR to INT...

[Reavyn]

Ive found the anti ae very useful. As an MT warden, im usually more interested in makeing sure the other healers, and myself dont get hit with an AE.  Its not hard at all to have us all stack on top of each other.  we usually use a drige and assasin, so i try to  pop the tree right before to make sure they know were to find me(side note, anti ae saves the tree too, lol.) the dirge one is nice, but sometimes 30 seconds isnt always enough time, especially with thier 10 min recast.

[Rangequest]

If it works as described (as a Warden I never believe the descriptions of my AA abilities) it will be great.

I did respec down AGI to the aoe protect.

My question though would be why not have the Dirge spec to their AOE protect since I think Bard AOE is a 25m radius rather than our 3m?

I have to agree as described - the AOE protect is much more useful overall for EOF raids than STR or INT would be.

Of course, I assume any raiding druid has heal crit maxxed in their KOS STA tree.

[Reavyn]

lol, drige does have it speced, all out bards do. just mean that for some mobs, having 2 anti aes in the group helps. and yes, the spell does work as discribed. Very short range, stuns you, but it does protect you and any group members inside 3 meters from ae, as long as they arnt the direct target(aka, the tank.) you can also toggle it off anytime within the 30 seconds, so its not like the tank has to go without your heals for that time, just make sure you know the ae has hit first.

oh yea, and just so you dont see something you think might get around the stun, the anti stun in the sta line doesnt stop your own spells from stunning you.  sure anyone thats used Heirophant line with that can conferm. the status item doesnt either, nor does sanctuary.

personally, the dps potential of the CAs isnt that bad. but without the KoS str line to back it up, a few helpful buffs from group members, and some fabled brawler gear that was gunna get transmuted anyway, your probably not gunna be able to put up big numbers. i dont think im ready to give up my faster regens or my crit heal bonus.  for me, the anti ae has saved the day enough, that since im already getting the faster regens, why not keep it. 

[Dragonreal]

now that the AAs have been revamped t cost less for the final abilities, he anti-ae is actually worth getting imo whereas before I don't think 8 points was worth it.