Hypothetical question(s)

[Niende]

I would be very happy if armor/weapon and woodworker/carpenter were merged. I always felt it was lame my (armor)smith stopped being able to make weapons after level 19. My carpenter has always struggled to gain experience due to lack of recipes compared to my sage or jeweler for instance. I vote yes on merging both referendum. :o

[Fortai]

Abilis wrote:

Another thought...  combining these would also be kind of like saying "We don't need berzerkers and guardians, so we're just combining them into one class and giving them access to everything they each had." or "we don't need coercers and wizards, so they are just being combined."

Not to mention.. but it's pretty darn hard to get that fabled/legendary gear without being in a hard-core guild, and even then it's pretty hard to get a full set, especially as soon as you can use the player-crafted stuff (IR: ever #2 level).  And, no matter what merging of classes, it's not going to cause there to be any more demand for those tradeskillers services since the raid-gear will always be supperior, it will simply make more tradeskillers with those abilities.

No actually it's completely different.  Wizards and Warlocks don't have a lack of spells.  Weaponsmiths have a lack of what they can do.

[scl]

I think it would make Smithery an overpowered tradeskill. Being able to equip yourself in full armour, weapons and a shiled is simply too much. Whilst this isn't that much of a problem in T7, where upgrades are easy to obtain it's still too much for lower tiers.

 That being said, Weaponsmiths need some loving. It's clear to everyone they got the raw deal in crafting for the reasons you outline in your original post. Armourers however, are fine as they are and don't need any love.

 Let's fix the classes, not merge them. There must be numerous ways in which to do this without taking such drastic steps. Why not just add another tier of crafting? Fabled. To an extent it worked in T5, I see no reason why you can't expand on that.

[s]

I have a lvl42 or so carpenter and omg it is boring trying to level off 1 recipe, or maybe two or three if I'm lucky.. only reason I got to 42 in the first place is the BCG HQ. Just noone needs what I make, and grinding off 1-3 items per level is boring.. I'd very much welcome a change like this.

[Tokam]

Ilucide wrote:

I'm going to preface this heavily: the two questions below are purely hypothetical.  I can't state this enough times: This is just me, one developer who plays the game, asking a question of his fellow players.    Also, I'll give the reasons why I'm inclined to ask. Please try to forgive me for the candid nature of this!

• What would armorers and weaponsmiths think about combining the two classes into Blacksmith?
• What would carpenters and woodworkers think about combining the two classes into Builder (or some less ridiculous name)?

Smithing: From the onset (this was some 3+ years ago now), I was curious how a weaponsmith class would function properly on its own. There are only one to two slots (depending on whether the client needs dual wield or 1/2h weapons) which they can fill, and really, only once every ten levels or so. This is vastly different than, say, a jeweler (lots of accessory slots), tailor (lots of body locations), armorer (same as tailor), or any of the other classes, really. In addition to the lack of slots to create items for, weaponsmiths also face the challenge of needing to compete on a level which the current system just doesn't really allow for. For characters who really need weapons (read: fighters, scouts & some priests), these items are such a critical upgrade path that mastercrafted gear is frequently overlooked in favor of moving directly to better legendary or fabled gear. To some extent, this might be able to be corrected with appropriate dropped recipes and rare components (this is a different discussion however), but it wouldn't be a complete or even guaranteed solution. Because both of these problems are such a major stumbling block to the weaponsmith profession as a whole, I'm curious what people would think about combining the two. Woodworking: (or carpenting - which really isn't a word, but oh well) One of the major problems with both professions has been trying to find enough things that both can build without stepping on each others' toes. Both have had a lack of recipes, and it's been one of the things I've been thinking about while fixing a lot of the little issues with furniture tags and the like. Carpenters get a lot of one-time business from people outfitting houses, and woodworkers will get a boost from the increased usefulness (and quantity) of arrow combines, but even still, both professions I feel have a very tough time standing on their own. Combining the two makes a lot of sense from my perspective, because the two professions really feel more like a whole that was split in two to conform to a 9 subclass number rather than two professions designed properly from the ground up. In Closing: Combining any profession might mean some feeling of a loss of identity, especially for folks who have gone out of their way to set themselves up as the premiere crafter of their field. I'm acutely aware of that, and that's one of the biggest reasons I tread so carefully here. I'm not dealing with any of the specifics of 'how' here, because to do so before I gauge community reaction would not only be a mistake, but would also be a disservice to you as a community. That time could be spent working on other things rather than working out the specifics of a hypothetical situation. Please, please, please remember that these really are just questions. I'm interested in hearing about what you have to say on the matter, and whether you would find it a positive change or not , that you'd like me talk to more folks on the EQ2 dev team about.

Edited because the formatting was really messy!

Jeezy Creezy - we actually get to enter into discussion with a dev about the direction that a part of our game takes? wowzer what is going on?

Thanks Ilucide for sharing your musings.

As far as weaponsmiths go I agree that they are not a viable tradeskill class (from the point of view of making money) and I do not think that they have been since the changes were made to cobalt. They have the most limited market and the most direct competition from risk v reward mob drops. However I would like to see their recipes split between woodworker, armourer and tailor - so as to avoid creating one class that can equip the majority of slots on fighter / scout classes (albeit in rather poor gear).

However I do realise that this wish is unworkable (you would be effectivley destroying one TS class, forcing those people to /respec to another and no doubt costing yourself a fair few subscriptions) but thats more the direction I would like to see the change going than a straight merge.

As for your comments on carpenters not being a viable class, or having too few recipes I am wondering how much time you have spent crafting as a carpenter? It is by far the most satisfying class to play (I have all of them except the afore mentioned weaponsmith), many people enjoy spending a long hours in game decorating their houses (we have our own forum.....) and it is a supremely able class from the role players point of view.

As far as being viable (from a financial point of view) as a stand alone class, carpenters have plenty of consumables that allow a steady turn over (things like palm trees and paladin braziers are consumables, people always seem to need more) and in the higher tiers we have the fantastic fireplaces / t6 rare furniture (finally) and repair kits / t7 adornments (which are also amazing). It is entirely possible to make money as a carpenter but it simply is not why the majority of us rolled the class to begin with. Please take some time to browse the homeshow forum to see what I mean.

For these reasons I have to disagree with you most strongly that the carpentry class is in need of merging with another to become viable. I chose to make a carpenter so that I could make furniture items and decorate my house with them. As did 95% of the other carpenters out there. If you are woried about the viability of the carpentry class, just stop giving away all of our t7 rare recipes as collection rewards (bit late now). If you are determined to merge woodworkers then merge them with weaponsmiths.

I apologise for not approaching this from a woodworkers pov but mine is only mid t4, and calthine can argue for them anyways

Edit: w** now flaged for the filter, I changed it..

[Shonshazzitt]

Deson wrote:

Handcrafted does still serve a purpose- it is great filler for spots you don't have treasured or better for.

About says it all right there doesn't it ?? Only meant as a temporary piece, nothing permanent. Why would I want to buy a Handcrafted piece of armor/weapon, when I know the first time I find something better, I have vender fodder.

We need to be fixed.

[Andu]

Fantastic idea. Im a woodworker and wood (ha ha ) love to be combined with Carpenter.

I can understand the resistance to it, just don't agree with it. I hope this does get implemented.

I'd also like to say "woot Ilucide" - the dialogue in the past few weeks has been a breath of fresh air.

[Tibbwini]

I think it is a good idea for a lot of the reasons people have already said. However, I would like to add the request that if you were to hypothetically merge tradeskills, you allow people a one-shot chance to reset their tradeskill and build it up again, now that the skills are different to what they were when they were first picked. In an era of the game where you can change your alignment, class, city of residence, AA build and skill loadout, I think it's about due, and this would be the perfect excuse to offer it.

[Efroma]

I have a 30ish weaponsmith, and a 30ish Carpenter, and I gotta say I would love this for both of my crafting toons, especially my carpenter.

[gm9]

First of I'd like to express how grateful I am that tradeskills are being looked at since you've been tasked to it, Ilucide, and I see many good things happening here! Regarding your questions at hand, and having crafters of the affected classes (although I basically stopped crafting after one-button crafting revamp), I believe this would be a very good idea. It has been apparent for a long time that these classes have problems. While these problems not only result from the limited number of recipes, but also from the general concept of putting crafted gear at the lower end of item progression, I see your proposal as a viable step in breathing new life into these trades. Other steps to improve crafting are possible and maybe necessary, but I do not think that is the issue at hand. Also, issues people will be having (like those with both of two classes that will be merged) can be solved in various ways, but that is not the issue at hand, either. So thumbs up from me, I hope this goes in!

[ATG]

Ilucide wrote:

I just want to comment on two things before I head out for the evening.

• 'Re-doing' entire professions is not something that was asked. The amount of time that would take is beyond the realm of even remote possibility.
• If, in the off-chance, something like this did happen, there is no way that we wouldn't consider people with multiple skilled characters (example: folks who have an armorer and a weaponsmith). Don't even let that enter into the discussion.

Thanks! Been a good discussion so far. -Ilu

First off, I think that both mergers are good ideas.  The classes fit together well and it really should have been this way since the start.

Second, you mention that you will consider people with multiple skilled characters.  This is clearly a given.  However, I think there needs to be some discussion on what to do about people who have just one of the affected professions, but may have chosen that profession specifically because a partner chose the other.  If a husband became the armorer and the wife became the weaponsmith, each would have an account with only one tradeskiller, but collectively they would suffer having a duplicated profession.  Had they known, they might have chosen an armorer and a jeweler, for example.  This is, remember, a MMORPG, and people are encouraged to team up and pick complementary professions, not simple do everything on their own.

So unless you are prepared to allow anyone with a(n) armorer/weaponsmith/woodworker/carpenter to respect, I think this idea is not feasible.  And please note, by respect I mean a 70 armorer to a 70 sage, for example.  Expecting that 70 armorer to become a 9 artisan would be absolutely heartless.

Thanks for floating ideas 

[Kendricke]

Shonshazzitt wrote: A merging of the classes is not the fix, its looking at peoples ideas, the players, the ones who chose that profession because that is what they wanted to be when they grew up.

I wanted to be a Blacksmith when I grew up, just as I was in old Everquest.  The problem was that in Everquest 2, I had to choose whether or not I could make weapons or armor - but not both. 

[Jida]

For those who say "don't combine them, fix them" I pose this question... How? Be specific, and don't say "take something from someone else and ..." I support the change of all 4 classes to 2. Increased competition may happen, but the usefulness in the trade skills will equal the rest.

[Terron]

Short Answer I do not think that either merger would currently be a good idea. Medium Answer There are problems with those classes which merging would address. However there are other ways the problems might be solved which seem to me likely to lead to a better game. Merging classes would also feel like a further degradation of tradeskilling, and it would appear like SoE are not willing to put the effort in to get the current classes to work. Long Answer I have both a woodworker and a carpenter. Both classes are short of recipes, so merging is an obvious, simple, easy solution. But there is another obvious solution - adding new recipes. It is not as simple and easy, but should be tried first, as it is likely to lead to a fuller richer game. It is not as is it is hard to come up with possibilities. One thing that would work for three of the classes is to bring back the "Secrets of ..." and extend the idea to higher tiers. Allow the Secrets of ... books to drop anywhere a master might, and allow the sepecial components to drop anywhere a rare might, but less frequently. Make the products legendary in quality. Woodworker Woodworker made charged items (totems) and wands (which are useful to some classes up to T4, and possibly beyond that in PvP). There are charged wands in the game, as quest rewards in Bloodlines. These charged wands damage an entire encounter, not just an individual. Is is possible to purchase Bloodlines recipe books for spells. So why not add a Bloodlines recipe book allowing woodworkers to make similar charged wands (one of each type). If successful the idea could be extended to other tiers. Since current wands become less useful from T4 up -  add new ones from T4/5 upwards  that would be more useful such as ones that add a bit of damage to spells doing damage of the same type.  Perhaps also staffs that add to healing spells. At higher tiers totems that transform you more completely into an animal, similar to the druids animal form ability (though weaker), such a  bear one that stifles you, increases you in-combat regen significantly, and and gives you significant boost to mellee attacks. Perhaps it would only work if you were not wearing any metal armour (chain or plate). A bat one might give you in-combat power regen boost, stifle you, a smaller mellee boost and let you glide like a fae. Musical instruments that can be equipped in secondary/ranged slots by bards and have +Agi/+Int. Carpenter A Bloodlines recipe book that lets you make various sizes of coffins for your house, which would probably be popular with necros. Tradeskill stations for your house limited as to the tier of stuff they can be used to make, so that a fir workbench would only work for recipes up to level 29. Special storage containers that can be put in your house vault then placed in the house like the broker containers. Larger houses for the ultra rich might increase the demand for furniture to fill them. Weaponsmith The first thing that needs to be done for weaponsmiths is to fix transmuting. That is remove the crafting from transmuting and give the transmuter's recipes to the weaponsmiths. That would make transmuting simpler and more logical, and release transmuted components for use by tradeskill classes (instead of them mostly being used to level up the transmuting). Weaponsmiths would not just get more recipes, but they would be recipes that are desirable by high levels. Make Darathar scale like the guild writ raids. So instead of being a easy target for groups miuch higher level than he was originally intended for he will be a challenge. So getting the special wyrmsteel weapons to fight him would become something worth doing. Also allow weaponsmiths to make wyrmsteel adornments that can be used with higher tier weapons. This would also stop the fight with Darathar seeming as anticlimatic as it did when my main got his prismatic. Allow weaponsmsiths who have completed the L&L quest to buy recipes for bane weapons/adornments that do extra damge to creatures of that type. This would require a bit of adventuring, but if the creatures can be found in T1 it is no worse than the many HQs that require level 9 crafting. This could be done for woodworkers too, since they also make weapons. Move ammo creation to weaponsmiths after adding other new recipes to woodworkers.

[Terron]

Jida wrote:

For those who say "don't combine them, fix them" I pose this question... How? Be specific, and don't say "take something from someone else and ..."

Done

[Deson]

Shonshazzitt wrote:

Deson wrote:

Handcrafted does still serve a purpose- it is great filler for spots you don't have treasured or better for.

About says it all right there doesn't it ?? Only meant as a temporary piece, nothing permanent. Why would I want to buy a Handcrafted piece of armor/weapon, when I know the first time I find something better, I have vender fodder.

We need to be fixed.

Because handcrafted is cheap and easy to get and has stats almost to order. Mastercrafted really falls into the same area but, since we lack anything better at the moment, it's hard to not be disappointed. Ok, people if you support this change why? It doesn't actually affect anything but leveling.  Armorers will now be competing with former weapon smiths and both with be competing for the slim market of armor that sells. If they find a way to make both have viable products, what makes this a better idea than just leaving the classes alone? For woodworkers and carps, the proposal does much the same. Woodworker weapons don't do too much better than weapon smith items and carps have their own little niche(Carps are carps ,mostly because they love what they make, not any practicality). Combining the two offers the flooding of the rather small carpentry market and with the changes coming to ammo, woodworking already stands to be really competitive when the arrow changes come through and flood the market with really cheap ammo. With an actual review of the classes off the table, what makes this so much better than the current situation?

[Nuhus]

lol Deson, love the signature.

[Nuhus]

Jerril wrote:

Tradeskills are messed up right now because of a lack of vision and care on the part of past developers.  With a dedicated Dev, who sets a vision before us, we can all help towards that goal and help right the ship that has been grounded for so long.

I'm not sure if it's devs or SOE. I don't think devs can go through with any large change without approval. Agree with the bold.

[Goonch]

Having a 70 carpenter alt myself, I say no thanks. I'd rather some loving be givin to my class instead of this hypothetical change. I think it would trivialize tradeskilling even more than it has been since the start of this game.

[Tokam]

Terron wrote:

Carpenter A Bloodlines recipe book that lets you make various sizes of coffins for your house, which would probably be popular with necros.

Ive been saying it since bloodlines came out.... GIVE ME A COFFIN FOR MY HOUSE! NOW!!

[Deson]

Nuhus wrote:

lol Deson, love the signature.

Heh, you know the irony of this change if it goes through is that the new classes would have recipe lists on par with scholars. My take on the whole thing though is if they won't go back and fix the issues that arose from designing the classes behind numbers instead of viability, we only end up shifting issues around.

[Terron]

Another idea for Carpenters (and Provisioners) Allow Carpenters to make herb gardens - boxes of plants that can be fertilized and watered and produced herbs. The tier of the herb should be the lowest of the water, fertilizer and box. Allow provisioners to use herbs in special recipes - perhaps in advanced provisioner books available at levels ending in 9. The resulting foods would need to be a bit better than current ones, since the ingredients will be more expensive, perhaps a 10% boost to the regen rate, or 20% on the stats.

[Aeslyn]

Weaponsmiths were nerfed beyond repair (my husband has a 70 weaponsmith that he pretty much gave up on short of twinking low-level alts). A merger there would be a good thing. I don't really know enough woodworkers to get what I need sometimes (I'm a priest, and need things like butterfly and chameleon totems constantly to get around), and as a level 70 Carpenter, I would not be upset at finding my class merged with theirs.  I was really disappointed while leveling up at the small number of recipes available, to the point that I would never have finished leveling the class if not for heritage quest obsession. People that have 15 different crafters (not that we know people like that) might be upset. Overall, I think it would be a good thing for the game as a whole.

Chalk me up as a "100% for-it".

[LoreLady]

I am against it as a woodworker, I can understand why a weapon smith would want it.. My sales have been in totems, its the one thing thats left that I can sell for a decent price that people will continue buying..  Totems of the beholder make me more than provisioners do per combine, and more overall than any other trade skill class.. I would like to see more types of totems come out, and the ability to stack them.

[Ji]

I like the idea but my only problem with it is that carpenters already have it made. It's easier to level a carpenter than a provisioner (for example) because they get so much experience from new combines. Provisioners only get 2-4 recipes per level (example) and have no "advanced" books to make a first time recipe and gain that bonus experience. Also carpenters make some really expensive things at high levels. If you own a house you are forced to buy their goods to get your status reduction down.

So in short I think carpenters already have an unfair advantage.

[Ktok]

First off, I love the idea. Weaponsmith especially has very, very little viability on its own these days.

Now, far be it for me to evoke the name of the beast (Starts with W, ends with W, has an O in the middle), but this does have a bit of that flavor. Just a hint. That's not a bad thing at all, I'm just mentioning it because I'm hoping it could eventually have more than a hint.

How so? Well, over in yon MMO, when you reach the top end of your craft in Blacksmithing, you get to specialize in Weapons or Armor and what you can make after specializing is very impressive. Weaponsmiths can further specialize in Hammers, Swords or Axes, and the quality of what you can make after this specialization is again even more impressive.

The best part, however, is that top end crafters can make very good items (Fabled by EQ2 terms) that only they themselves can use. It's a bit of a reward for grinding up to the cap of your tradeskill. In my opinion, that would be really nice to see here in EQ2. Give us some sort of No Trade rewards that only we can make. Maybe a Fabled sword that uses lots of rares and a Fabled transmuting item... Empowered Acrylia Inlaid Xegonite Greatsword?

Anyway, it's a thought. Would be nice to have a reason to get a character to the tradeskill cap other than strugling to sell wares.

[Ji]

Good idea Terron! I like it.

[Nahlis]

Been reading through the whole thread here and have nothing particular to add that hasn't been covered better by others more qualified to speak to those classes.  So just to be brief and throw my 2c in there..

I think this is a wonderful idea and I wholly support it!

[Arrek]

I have a T7 armorer Please do not merge the Armorer with the Weaponsmith Combining classes without providing new receipes for high demand products will only penalize armorers. Before choosing an armorer I carefully researched the items that could be made by each tradeskilling class and the market on my server for crafted armor. Your proposal would cause a significant increase in competition for the goods I produce with no corrisponding increase in sellable (high demand) products.  Is competition bad - no,  but a sudden large scale increase in competition is not fair.    The result of merging the armorer and weaponsmith tradeskill classes would be a backdoor nerf to armorers. I have not read the entire thread so please forgive me if I am duplicating arguments others have made.

[Powers]

Ilucide, look at it this way. What does your hypothetical proposal actually do?  What changes under your proposal? 1) Demand goes nowhere.  Demand for all products will stay exactly the same.  (Actually, demand might actually go down, because, for example, Weaponsmiths who currently need to contract an Armorsmith to create armor will no longer need to do so.) 2) Supply goes up.  The number of crafters in one of the new professions will not be exactly the sum of the number in the old professions, but it will be a lot higher than either was.  This will greatly increase supply. Basic economics: what happens when supply goes up and demand stays the same (or goes down)?  That's right, prices go down. And this is supposed to help crafters? Let's see what else changes. 3) Number of available recipes for some individual crafters goes up. This appears to be the primary beneficial change in your proposal.  It allows crafters to level up faster because of increased chances for discovery XP.  There are many ways to accomplish this same goal without merging these professions.  Besides which, grinding isn't supposed to be the primary method of advancement in this game, anyway.  Or so it's been said. I also don't understand the alleged similarity between woodworkers and carpenters. "Carpenter" is perhaps the wrong word for that profession; "Furnisher" would be more accurate.  This is because Carpenters do not only work with wood!  Most furniture is made from wood, true, but Carpenters also create vases, chandeliers, sconces, pots, rugs, paintings, tents, and numerous other non-wood house items.  Carpenters' reaction arts include one called "metallurgy", and Carpenters' skill is called "Sculpting".  The only connection between Carpenters and Woodworkers is that a lot of furniture is made from wood.  But certainly not all of it. The decline you are seeing in tradeskilling viability is not due to Weaponsmiths not getting enough recipes on which to grind.  The problems go much deeper than that, and your proposal will, at best, only delay the demise of crafting.  The problems of crafting go back all the way to the removal of interdependency.  Back then, yes, it was some work to find a weaponsmith to craft carbonite spikes for you, but you could find one.  But now, I can't even find a weaponsmith to craft a feysteel weapon.  It seems like everyone has nine crafters, and thus are self-sufficient, and very few people craft on commission.  Very few people LFW in the crafting channel.  These are the problems with crafting, and these won't be fixed by combining some of the professions. Ironically, I think the number of people with a full suite of crafters has gone UP since interdependency was removed, rather than down as one might have expected. The bottom dropped out of most crafting markets after LU24, to the point where selling items on the broker is a virtually profitless enterprise, resulting in the need for grinding to level up, resulting in the complaints that some classes don't have enough recipes on which to grind.  Your proposal is a band-aid, at best, on the last of these results.  To the extent that this proposal hides the underlying problem, it's a very bad idea. Powers  &8^]