If We Had Eight Brigands, We Could Beat This So Easily...

[Neue Reg]

Again this thread *sigh*

 

I am in a raiding guild on Oasis.  Know what? you will not find any of the members of my guild here upset over the brigands AR ability.  Know why?  They love it.  It helps the raid.

 

So your a raiding swashy and here yelling that its not fair we have AR ability?  I am sure your guild appriciates that.

 

And then if they nerf the AR ability, Ill bet most of the rest of the guild is onna be pretty [Removed for Content] off cause you were leading the lynching.

 

As far as I am concerned, every class has benefits and things that suck.  Saying your useless cause you cant engage Matron is purely an excuse to not learn the mob and do whats needed to help your guild.  If your guild needs you mowing down mobs to clear the teleport path, that officially doesnt make you usless right?

 

For the record I totally agree swashies need something to further define them, or fix some of the borked skills.  Hell give em AR, I really dont care one way or another.  Just get your facts straight before you come here slamming AR.

 

Load a parse from a epic without a brigand on the raid, then load one with.  You tell me.

[Scort]

I never said SOEs idea of fixing chanters so they could use thier skills, was a good fix. It's a STEP in the right direction.In WoW, you get to use all your skills that you have at your disposal as a class from grouping to raiding. SOE wants to nerf those skills so they can have an easier time of making mobs difficult.It all comes down to having WAY too many classes and spreading skills out WAY too thin and then designing certain encounters to where you HAVE to have certain classes or you don't win and making certain classes pretty much useless.It was messed up to have 24 classes and limit raids to 24 people. 24 classes would have been fine in EQ1 where you had 40+ people in raids.24 classes and then designing encounters where classes are useless and classes absolutely required (meaning people will be left out) doesn't do well with keeping players happy in that they get left out of raids.

Message Edited by Scortch on 09-25-2006 08:29 PM

[Diapause]

I hate to post in this deliberate nerf thread, but dam how shortsighted can you be? You do realize that the Brigand's ubah debuffs help you and the raid moreso than it does the Brig? That AE immunity still only gets Brigs into T2, and that's trying hard.With this logic, lets nerf enchanters since they're the only ones that can mez epics and some encounters can be trivialized by mezzing adds..With this logic, lets nerf summoners again since they split their aggro with the pet, give our hearts/shards, can have a mage or scout do damage, and are T1 DPS anytime they wanna be.With this insane logic, let's nerf Warlocks because in T6, PPTR trash mobs were trivialized by the massive AOE's. Oh wait, Swashy's were kickin a@# there too, u get the nerf bat too!Hey wait! With a Assassin and Swashy hate transfer, u let the raid hold aggro better than without it. Nerf Swashies!See how shortsighted your view is? Look at the skill against the balance of other class defining or ubah skills and maybe that will give you some perspective. This coming from someone who admitted toping the parse for 99% of all other content in his guild and having the cojones to ask to nerf another character thats doing less damage than them. The audacity.Diapause 70 TempSeptro 70 BrigQuattra 70 WarlockOctro 70 Troub

[Iseabeil]

Please, for the love of gods, I wish people would learn to read...

This isnt about how brigands are so 1337 that they have to be nerfed. This isnt about how AR is overpowered. This isnt about how AR must ne nerfed.

 

This is about some raid encounters being unbalanced in a way that makes brigands far more usefull then their sibling class, wich in itself is isnt much of an issue. Raids shouldnt be sterotypes anyways. What ís an issue is that SoE really likes sticking to one way of encounter design at a time and if they decide upon making this certain type the new standard, it would make AR overpowered in raiding. As is, rogues are decently balanced, we outdamage brigs whilst they out-debuff us, they can avoid AE's whilst we do much more AE damage and can transfer hate from that to tank. Certainly Id change some smaller things if I was a dev, but thats beyond the point. As long as both rogues can do their job its oki. If the situation ends up where one of the rogues has a massive advantage to do their job in general raiding its not oki.

If next generation raids has limitations that mean illusionists can only add mana regens half fight whilst coercers can do it during all fight is that oki?

If necro pets have 50% higher hate gain then conjuror pets, is that oki?

If raid mobs in future resists zerker taunts twice as often as guardian taunts is that oki?

If mobs start to dispell defiler wards but leaves mystic wards alone is that oki?

 

Some quite extreme examples and no big issue if one or two mobs utilize such skills, but would it be oki for one subclass to only do their job halftime whilst the other can do it fulltime because of some mechanic and have this as general rule?

 

See the issue? Its not really about today, its about whats to come.

 

 

[Snarks]

The only legitimate problems between the two classes are:1) Defensive debuffs scale in importance as the mob becomes higher level (especially orange) and the mob becomes x2 < x3 < x4.2) Offensive debuffs are rendered nearly useless in epic fights where dps/haste debuffs are capped at 50%. If this cap is not reached by the shamans on your raid, and held permanently, they aren't doing their job.3) The reliability / consistency of landing debuffs as a mob gets harder (in level and raid size) greatly favors the brigand. The most obvious reasons for this are multiple AOE encounters.The two real fights where the classes you bring to a raid can 'make it or break it' are Matron and less importantly Chel'Drak. On all other encounters in the game, both dps and mitigation debuffs are entirely optional. Therefore, its important to look at the usefulness of these in the setting in which they are more applicable. Both of these raids have a single level 75 epic x4 mob which is linked to a chest. Both of these mobs have 2 aoe's, and depending on your group setup, keeping the swashbucker 10s debuff on a mob can be quite impossible to achieve consistancy. Either the debuff just doesnt land (not uncommon on an orange mob) or the timer expires when an aoe is incoming.The fact of the matter is that swashbuckler debuffs on both of these fights are undeniably optional. Though the 10s dps debuff might have some use if a shaman dies or is otherwise distracted, its important not to exaggerate its importance to the class as many people in this thread seem to do. Lung puncture is MOST useful on low level green mobs, and LEAST useful on high level orange/red mobs.Dispatch is LEAST useful on low level green mobs, and MOST useful on high level orange/red mobs.Swash DPS is MOST useful on groups of mobs, and LEAST useful on single target mobs that AOE.Brigand DPS is LEAST useful on groups of mobs, and MOST useful on single target mobs that cast aoes.If the tendency towards raid (and especially very difficult raid encounters) usefulness isnt as clear as daylight, your dillusions to the rogue situation stemming from ignorance/ego/etc have taken their toll.I almost wish they just gave traumatic swipe to swashbucklers to balance, but when used by a brigand who can constantly stay on a mob, even the usefulness of this trait is amplified in their favor.There is a lot to like about the swashbuckler class, and I know I wont be switching to Brigand anytime soon - but I really don't believe subclasses should be so clearly divided between heroic and epic content.

[KillSlow]

Every class should have ar

 

that way assassins can dps better

 

the classes are different but the same, why do you want them to be the same?

both have advantages and dis-advantages

 

make ts swash only?

 

how about giving brigs hate x-fer

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

I still say fix or replace Hail of Steel and make the damage/casting skills mean somthing (Crush/slash/pierice would effect auto attack damage rather than just accuracy, as would destruction for damage spells and ministration for heals. Ordnation, subjugation ect could get slight duration bonuses) and swashbucklers will be even better than Brigands. I wouldn't even care if they were, I just don't feel like being nerfed, I played CH in SWG and from that pile of BS I learned that if SoE nerfs a class, they won't stop at sufficient to make them not fotm. The first CH nerf balanced the class fine except a few overpowered pets with huge kinetic resist, so to fix the pets they nerfed almost every worthwhile  creature in the game, then they nerfed the pets again and then they finally just removed the class because they thought they hadn't [Removed for Content] everyone who played them off enough.

[Gaellen]

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This is about some raid encounters being unbalanced in a way that makes brigands far more usefull then their sibling class, wich in itself is isnt much of an issue. Raids shouldnt be sterotypes anyways.

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What rubbish.  The majority of raids in this game, from t5 till now, have been this way.  Some classes can excel, some suffer.  There are other mobs out there with back to back AEs, you know.  There are mobs that resist different types of damage and make certain classes less useful.  There are mobs that require specific strats (which often means, specific ways of using specific abilities) - that's the way raiding IS.  If raiding was about everybody being equal in all situations and all cases, then we'd pick a class called "raider" and all do the same dps, have the same abilities, same HP and Power, same resists, and so on. You feel bad because for these specific encounters you're not as uber as normal.  I doubt there is a single dps raider who could not point out at least one raid mob where they have had this happen, if not more. 

[Dakkon_10]

Tell me, when is a Brigand ever unable to do their job in a raid? Sure there are fights where a brig isn't as helpful, but never a fight where they are useless.I am never a fan of balance, but swashes seem to have been left behind. Taking away the DoF ancient teachings, Brigand and Swashbuckler are perfectly balanced. Swash is dps that can debuff, Brig is debuffer that can dps. Now compare the DoF ancient teachings:Hurricane vs. Double upTwo very useful abilities.Lung Puncture vs. DispatchFair enough, offensive debuff vs defensive debuff. Although dispatch is useful against tough mobs and lung puncture is useful against... easy mobs.Hail of Steel vs. Amazing ReflexesOr in other words, Useless vs. Incredibly useful.And there you have it. As said above, Fix HoS or replace it with something useful, and tweak lung puncture to make a noticeable difference in the offense of mobs higher than green con......and for the love of god, don't think that I want Brigands nerfed. They are fine the way they are Lol.

[Deeds]

The grass is always greener on the other side aint it???

 

Go ahead and betray then.

 

Just dont be surprised that you are gaining a lot more agro on raids and have to back off or die, and that your AoE damage sucks.

 

And I see you had no problems when you were the #1 parser through most of KoS.  How do you think the assasins, rangers, wizards, warlocks felt about that????

Message Edited by Deedbit on 09-26-2006 11:48 AM

[NosajMa]

I play a 70 swash on Unrest, and after reading through this thread felt the need to reply.Looks like some of you still aren't reading the OP close enough.  Let's restate it once and for all: he is NOT asking for a brigand nerf.  If those of you complaining that that's what he's asking for would actually read his post more carefully, you'd realize that.  He has a concern that future encounters designed by SOE will be just like Chel'Drak and Matron, in which swashbuckler usefulness is non-existent; i.e. there's no /need/ for a swash, any other dps would suffice if not be better.  He's not complaining about Chel'Drak and Matron; he's not upset about an encounter that lowers his dps significantly; he's concerned, and rightly so, that SOE will get it into their heads to make most if not all encounters in the future like this.Want proof that his concern is valid?  Look at Nizara.  Tough zone, designed for a well-geared group of 70's.  Sure, I have no problem with that.  We all want a challenge.  There's some nifty challenges in there too.  Target locking, Flame Claw, etc.  But they're /way/ overused.  If one or two named had unique abilities like the target locking, it'd be fine.  But when every other group of mobs in the zone does that, when you're getting multiple flame claws on the MT from a single group of mobs, it's overdone.  Yet SOE released it that way anyway.  They came up with those ideas, and they cut 'n pasted them.The OP is concerned about the same thing happening in future raids.  To play devil's advocate, I realize it gets harder and harder for SOE to come up with new, challenging raids that are different and not too easy.  But when they rely on a particular tactic that effectively destroys a subclass's usefulness, it also destroys the fun for anyone who plays that subclass.  I say this with absolute certainty because I've encountered the same thing.  Chel'Drak, I'm relegated to staying with the add tank, trying to pull adds off the MT, burn down the few that I can even touch (shadowy thief for the lose), and waste a few seconds every now and then with HoS on Chel'Drak.  As for Matron, pretty much same thing: burn down adds, HoS when able, ranged the whole time.Swashbuckler != ranger.  I don't enjoy ranged fighting.  I'm glad I have the ability to do so, but it is not as fun.  If I wanted ranged, I'd roll a ranger or wizard.  All that said, I would hope that SOE is paying attention to threads like this, and keeps constructive feedback in mind in the future when designing raid encounters.  I play this game to have fun.  I have the most fun when I get cool new gear for my toons.  The best gear does and should come from raids.  When an encounter comes along where my class is useless, you're killing my fun, and if the game isn't fun for me, I'm going to spend my money elsewhere.  I don't have to spend $30 a month for my two accounts when there's other things to do.Overall suggestion here: continue to design new, interesting encounters.  Continue to come up with stuff we haven't seen before.  But by all means, try not to make /any/ class feel useless on a raid.  Also, I think it was Snark? who nailed it dead-on: swash was designed for heroics, brig was designed for raids.  I've felt this myself before but never had it put into words so precisely.  Thank you.

[Scort]

Deedbit, doesn't sound like you read anything here.As far as resist goes that had been discussed. Orange mobs pretty much negate most resist. You can have 15k resist and still get hit really hard. I know people that have 13k resist that get hit just as hard on Matron as people that only have 7k.Lung puncture is pretty much useless. It has no noticeable effect.Hurricane got nerfed to heck and back because someone was afraid the Brigands would gripe too much so, it was dropped to 50% at MASTER. Was a real kick in the teeth for us, yet AR was left alone.Hail of Steel just sucks plain and simple. Our ranged sucks plain and simple because we were relegated to using brawler equipment that's only used to pull with.Our Brigands parses right there with swashies all the time. They can do their job 100% of the time. When playing joust, we can only do our jobs part of the time. The more AOEs we avoid, the more useless we become. The less time we have to debuff, if at all.I would gladly give up hurricane and Hail of steel for AR, or some of our skills fixed or whatever.Encounters should not be designed to make classes useless. Every time a class is told they are gonna have to sit out for someone that is more useful, the more frustrated the players become. They already spread certain required skills too thin by having too many classes with a 24 man raid limit, they don't need to deny more people the chance to raid that mob they want to help bring down.

Message Edited by Scortch on 09-26-2006 05:21 PM

[TwistedFaith]

Welcome to the world of the ranger, no debuffs/buffs, zero utlity and lower dps compared to assasins.

[khufure]

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valleyboy1 wrote:Welcome to the world of the ranger, no debuffs/buffs, zero utlity and lower dps compared to assasins.

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Don't forget arrow cost.  And that assassins just look cooler baby!

[Diapause]

Swashies Rendered useless?? So let me get this straight, Brigs with AR come out 4-5th on a parse behind Assassins, Necros, Conjurors, Swashies and tied somewhere with Rangers, Wizzies, Monks, Bruisers, and even Beserkers in off. stance who all have to joust/range/time AEs?So umm yea, we're overpowered.Newsflash - all Assassins quit ur toons and level up Brigands! Give up that top spot on the raid parse so you can stay in AE range and come out in 5th!!Someone send this dude over to the Shadowknight forums so he can get a real taste of useless raid toons.. lolz

[Iseabeil]

 

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Gaellen wrote:
What rubbish.  The majority of raids in this game, from t5 till now, have been this way.  Some classes can excel, some suffer.  There are other mobs out there with back to back AEs, you know.  There are mobs that resist different types of damage and make certain classes less useful.  There are mobs that require specific strats (which often means, specific ways of using specific abilities) - that's the way raiding IS. 

If raiding was about everybody being equal in all situations and all cases, then we'd pick a class called "raider" and all do the same dps, have the same abilities, same HP and Power, same resists, and so on.

You feel bad because for these specific encounters you're not as uber as normal.  I doubt there is a single dps raider who could not point out at least one raid mob where they have had this happen, if not more. 

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Reading a post totally before replying is a good thing. If you actually read all I wrote, its no issue to me that some classes are better in some fights and some less usefull in some, thats kool, thats even good for crying out loud, it becomes an issue when a certain tactic that cripples a class becomes standard. Spelled it out enough now? If this latest invention of SoE's doesnt become standard in EoF, then all is good, you won't see me complain if there is a couple of fights where my usefullness is limited, but SoE is SoE, we all seen it happen before, how classes go from usefull to totally useless in raiding because of mechanics, and I personally would hate to see that happen again. I got a swashie at 70/50, monk at 70/50, warden at 70/50, a templar close to it and an illusionist in leveling, if they mess up my favorite character I can betray, i can switch main, there are many options, but I don't want to see swashies go the way of rangers.
Bottom line: If I am a bad choise for a few encounters I really don't care. If I become a bad choise for raiding in general then I care. With EoF around the corner, the risk that the most recent mechanics will be reused is not very small.

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Diapause wrote:
Swashies Rendered useless?? So let me get this straight, Brigs with AR come out 4-5th on a parse behind Assassins, Necros, Conjurors, Swashies and tied somewhere with Rangers, Wizzies, Monks, Bruisers, and even Beserkers in off. stance who all have to joust/range/time AEs?

So umm yea, we're overpowered.

Newsflash - all Assassins quit ur toons and level up Brigands! Give up that top spot on the raid parse so you can stay in AE range and come out in 5th!!

Someone send this dude over to the Shadowknight forums so he can get a real taste of useless raid toons.. lolz

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Show me where any swashie has said its oki that rangers DPS is unproportional in raids? Show me where any swashie said they should leave SK's as they are? Show me where anyone claims to have rolled a rogue to be pure dps a lá predator? Are you honestly saying that because we are not the worst off class in raids, that we should accept sliding back and back in use? Only those in the bottom are allowed to be concerened now?

I'd be happy to lose some dps in return for having debuffs that makes a real differance and encounters where I can focus on doing my job. Give swashies the ability to cripple a mobs offense in the way a brig cripples their defence, and give us a way to deal with AE's and its all nice and dandy. Assassains and rangers both have more range attacks then rogues. brigs/swash share one thrown CA and swashies got *1* extra ranged CA that at current is pathetic even at M1. Sorcs and summoners both have plenty of ranged spells and in the the end monks, bruisers and zerkers are fighters not dps classes. Even with Hail of Steel working well and our debuffs meaning somethin, brigand will still be the masters of debuffs as they can stay in debuff range whilst HoS roots you out of debuff range, wich will keep balance of brigs = debuff/dps and swashies = dps/debuff.

 

 

[heke]

Well, it IS kind of funny that the OP only compared the swashi to the brigand. Rangers are mostly at the top of the dps list and they don't have to fear aoe either. Assassins are also top although they have to joust too. And any caster dd will also do more damage in those two encounters mentioned than a swashi. And swashis do more dps than brigands in most other encounters. So i don't really get it that the brigand is the only class the OP compares his class to. And all this whining is based on one assumption anyway: the encounter in EOF will _probably_ be as matron and chel'drak are. If you leave that out it comes down to: my swashi is underpowered because i do less dps than a brigand in 2 out of 20 encounters...I agree on the part that aoe that ignore resists are unfair to certain classes. I don't agree on the "any raid needs a brigand" as any raid needs lots of classes really. That is not the problem. The problem is that some classes can be done without. And that should not be. In a game where raiding is the only content (200 or 300 quests per expansion are quite few for a year of gameplay, quite few for more than 1-2 month actually) EVERY class should be useful to a raid. Brigands where useless, TOTALLY useless, for many months of raiding, like from january to september 95 or something, or at least from the time every raid mob got that aoe (forgot the name) until the combat changes. And it sucked to be a brigand. Well, nobody played brigand at that time anyway. Enchanters had their period of uselessness during DoF days. SKs seem to be mostly useless atm. Swashis are not useless now. Even if they are subpar in those two encounters.

[TwistedFaith]

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heketon wrote:Well, it IS kind of funny that the OP only compared the swashi to the brigand. Rangers are mostly at the top of the dps list and they don't have to fear aoe either.

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Rangers dont have to fear the aoe? Oh thats right because they have all ranged attacks right and there's no need to backstab etc....Hmmm.............You know what your right, i'm going to try that on Lord Vyemn next time, just stay at ranged and nail him, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I bet if we had 8 rangers we'd kill him so much easier right.

[KillSlow]

you know what is funny with the right group setups that would own lol

3 tanks and it would be 45sec fight lol

 

not every guild has the same setups, same class dpsers top of parse

or kill the mobs the same way

and not everyone plays their class the same

dog ae immunity FTW assassins love it

[Diapause]

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Iseabeil wrote:it becomes an issue when a certain tactic that cripples a class becomes standard

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You guys and your indefensible positions. You are talking about encounters that no one has yet experienced in EoF and you are acting as if your class is made [Removed for Content] because 2 out of all the current raid encounters you felt unneeded. And you are 'hoping' they don't make em all like the Matron.For your sake, I hope they make every EoF raid just like the Corsolander. Then maybe you'll be happy because then all melee classes would be screwed. I can just see your post now:'Yarr - me backstabs not be working! Avast ye matey, this encounter is the suxor, nerf Rangers!!'

[Gaellen]

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Diapause wrote:

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Iseabeil wrote:it becomes an issue when a certain tactic that cripples a class becomes standard

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You guys and your indefensible positions. You are talking about encounters that no one has yet experienced in EoF and you are acting as if your class is made [Removed for Content] because 2 out of all the current raid encounters you felt unneeded. And you are 'hoping' they don't make em all like the Matron.For your sake, I hope they make every EoF raid just like the Corsolander. Then maybe you'll be happy because then all melee classes would be screwed. I can just see your post now:'Yarr - me backstabs not be working! Avast ye matey, this encounter is the suxor, nerf Rangers!!'

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Exactly. Two encounters you can't own oh, OM MY GOD THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH!    It's especially hillarious given that swashies can still do just fine on both, they just don't absolutely rock the boat on.  It's not a valid argument that your class gets the shaft on these, and it's not even close to valid to cry nerf based on the assumption of future raids.  DoF raid mechanics were quite a bit different to the original t5 raids.  KoS mechanics were quite different to DoF.  Both little adventure packs tended to take after their base teir, but even then, were quite different. I'm sure there are enough actual problems to complain about here, before we start on future ones.  :smileytongue:

[Scort]

The arguments are as valid as enchanter's arguements. Just as valid as Ranger's arguments. Just as valid as SK's arguments, etc.Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.It's not about maintaining our DPS, it's about not being able to do what we were designed to do, because of mechanics. Just like it was about enchanters not being able to do their job because of mechanics.

[KillSlow]

not the same chanters couldn't do anything but power drian and dps, nothing special

 

you can still do everything as normal just have to take a break every 30s or so

 

[Removed for Content] every encounter in the game i can't DPS 2k on ok

 

Why do you play a class if you hate it so much???

 

What do you think your job is?

Message Edited by KillSlow on 09-27-2006 12:40 PM

[Gaellen]

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Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.

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Oh my god.  So do TANKS!  Nerf tanks!!  Swashies (and most classes) have a ton of things that balance the fact that they cannot dodge AEs.  You win some, you lose some.   They could just take away absolutely every single thing you have that makes you better than a Brigand, and give you AE avoidance.  Or, you could just make a brigand. 

[Petgroup]

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Scortch wrote:Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.

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Incorrect.And just when you thought only the Corsalander made them human, I present you with .................. The Djinn Master :smileyvery-happy:

[Duster_68]

Well,  I sure glad that's all sorted out now. :smileyindifferent:

[KillSlow]

I have had enough of this

 

healers are over powered

they can heal no matter what

they can cure stun, even on themselves

rez themselves

 

this is insane nerf all healers

 

too over powered they have best buffs and some of the best debuffs

OMG unfair

 

note 70 Defiler here

 

I know what my job is do you, or are you wanting to be a hero and have a shinny top of every parse trophy

[Jounar]

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Gaellen wrote:

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Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.

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Oh my god.  So do TANKS!  Nerf tanks!!  Swashies (and most classes) have a ton of things that balance the factthat they cannot dodge AEs.  You win some, you losesome.   They could just take away absolutely every singlething you have that makes you better than a Brigand, and give you AEavoidance.  Or, you could just make a brigand. 

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What exactly do Brigs give up to be the most needed class in any raid? Lets see what those poor Brigs have to give up shall we....DPS? Nope they do T1 damage on most encounters if played correctly.Utility? Nope they have so many debuffs they are a must have on any serious raid.Abilities? Nope they have the best ability of any DPS class in the game. There is no way any one class in this game should contain so many bonus's without having any negitives.Yeah Brigs have it tough.

[FlintAH]

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Jounar wrote:

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Gaellen wrote:

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Point is, Brigands can still do their job 100% of the time on every encounter.

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Oh my god.  So do TANKS!  Nerf tanks!!  Swashies (and most classes) have a ton of things that balance the factthat they cannot dodge AEs.  You win some, you losesome.   They could just take away absolutely every singlething you have that makes you better than a Brigand, and give you AEavoidance.  Or, you could just make a brigand. 

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What exactly do Brigs give up to be the most needed class in any raid? Lets see what those poor Brigs have to give up shall we....DPS? Nope they do T1 damage on most encounters if played correctly.Utility? Nope they have so many debuffs they are a must have on any serious raid.Abilities? Nope they have the best ability of any DPS class in the game. There is no way any one class in this game should contain so many bonus's without having any negitives.Yeah Brigs have it tough.

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Increased hate gain

[Jounar]

So have Rangers, Wizzys and Warlocks among many others tho i bet they would be happy to have all the goodies that Brigs have to go along with there's.

Message Edited by Jounar on 09-28-2006 12:03 AM