EQ2 Producer's Letter - December 2005

[Eyes_of_Truth]

Personally, i love the archetype system.

 

Devs could have exicuted it a bit better, but the system itself is a wonderous thing if balanced proportionaly.

 

 

That being said, im glad to see it go actually, because i feel that it would take too much effort to try to cram all the spells you might get later on into 10 or 20 levels.

 

If they had really wanted to make the archetype system work, they would have had to use their original idea with their new found balanceing mind set.

 

Example:

 

Priests.

 

Start out giving them Minor healing, Arch healing, Group direct healing, a group Ac buff, a single target damage with low reuse, a debuff

 

Then at the Class level, they would have to keep these spells the EXACT same proportions, but with tacted on side effects for diversity.

 

Please assume that the base healing factor of minor healing is about 50 hp for 15 power at level 10, 2sec CT(casting time) and 6 sec RC(recast ), and the arch is about 80 hp for 20 power, CT 3sec, RC 8sec

 

Cleric- their direct heals recive a 50% boost in healing and is all upfront, but their recast is increased, so their minor healing is 75 hp heal, 2sec CT, 7sec RC, and 22.5 power cost. 8.3 hp per second, with a 3.333 hp/power // arch healing is 120 hp at a 30 power cost, 3sec CT, 9sec RC,  10hp per second, with a 4 hp/power ratio // Their group Ac buff also increases 25% more mitigation then the other priest class's, and increases Stamina // clerics can debuff mitigation, stamina, and arcane/divine resistance

 

Druid- their direct heals heal for the same total amount as clerics(or just slightly over), except 40% upfront and 60% over time  per second. Their minor healing heals for 30 intitially, then 8hp every second for 6 seconds, CT 1second, RC 6seconds and 22.5 power cost, 11 hp/second, with a 3.333 hp/power // arch healing is 48 hp initially, then 8hp per second for 9seconds, CT  1.5 seconds, RC 8sec, 30power, 12hp/sec, with a 3.333hp/power // Their group AC buff also increases avoidance and buffs agility // druids can debuff avoidance, agility, and elemental resistance.

 

Shaman- their direct heals heal the normal amount and wards target for 40% of the hp it heals. Shaman's minor healing heals for 50 hp and wards for 20hp, 2sec CT, 5 sec RC, for 21 power, 10 hp per second, 3.333hp/power // Arch is about 80 hp and 32 hp ward, CT 3sec, RC 7sec, for 29power, 11hp/sec // Their group AC buff also increases inate spell resistance and buffs str // shamans can debuff attackspeed, str, and noxious damage.

 

Cleric's specialty heal is Reactive, heals damage when target is hit, PROS- if fighting multiple foes who are hitting rapidly, this will heal the most inshortest amount of time, CONS- if fighting a singal enimy that relies on heavy single hits with long reuses, reactives are less effective. Fires off 6 times. For best results, tank must be hit atleast every second.

 

Druid's specialty heal is Regeneration, heals damage over a set time, PROS-if fighting a mob or mobs that to prolonged damage, or who do spaced out spike damage with a cool down inbetween the big hits, regeneration has time to get it's full effect. CONS- if fighting a mob that focuss on doing as much damage as possible early on, it might get overwhelmed, also, the heal is waisted if recipiant is healed to 100% before it ends. Tics every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, so it heals 6 times. Each tic is equall to a cleric's reactive.

 

Shaman's specialty heal is Ward, prevents damage upfront, PROS-can be used to prevent damage before it occurs, wont ever go waisted if recipient is healed to 100% CONS- less total hp protected then the sum of the regen or reactives, since the ward protects it all upfront. It's value is equivilant to 1 tic or reactive short of the other's (aka, if druid's regen healed 25hp every 2 seconds+initial, that totals to 6 * 25 = 150, so the ward's ammount would be 130)

 

 

 

Sorry if that got a tad complicated, but thats how you balance a game with the archetype mind set. Thats just a small example ofcourse, but that is how you flesh out the system, you make sure they are all proportional to eachother, and that they each branch off on their buffs.

 

Clerics, under this system, are the best at healing large amounts up front, and increaseing armor class.

Druids, under this system, are the best at healing the most in a 10 second time frame, and increasing avoidance

Shamans, under this system, are the middle road, healing more then druids in the initial heal+ward, but not as much as a cleric, while having a shorter reuse then a cleric, but not as short as a druid.

 

Using the same amount of power though, they all heal the same ammount, i made sure to keep that a constant.

 

Their specialty heals coexhist well i this format, shaman's being the least powerful for total hp healed, but providing the most protection upfton, where as druid's regen and Cleric's reactives flip-flop depending on the encounter.

 

 

Sorry for blabbering, but thats how a archetypal system would work, but ....it's a real PITA to try to keep things balanced liek that :smileywink:

 

Toodles!

 

 

[Cyanbane]

The new PvP system sounds extremely interesting.  I am eager to play around on it.  You know what would be neat?  If SOE would allow us to copy (not move) one of our characters to the new servers (no items/ no plat/ JUST character) with level/xp in tact to one of the new PvP servers. -Cyan EQ2-Daily.com Podcast

[ironman2000]

I know this Kendricke, but they are adopting more and more stuff from WoW, I mean have you read the test server update notes recently? It reads like a best of WoW hit list.  We are getting a pen Icon over the  heads of people with quests for you, and if they have an update for a quest, they have a journal and a pen and things like that, I mean the higher ups have all but said we are taking all the stuff we find fun about WoW and making it in EQ 2 now.

This is from a post by John Smedley:

"We've certainly made our share of mistakes over the years… but overall, we've tried to stay true to our primary goal of entertaining you.

That's our job description.

Now what's been interesting from our perspective is what really serious competition is doing to the online gaming space. World of Warcraft has come on the scene and is doing awesome. Kudos to Blizzard on what I think is a spectacular game. I've played the heck out of it, and I love it (as have many people here at SOE). To a game developer, having another game developer play your game is the ultimate compliment… so to the folks at Blizzard we say "Nicely done".

But don't think for a second that we don't see WoW as both a great game AND Blizzard as serious competition.

Personally… I'm glad they are out there. They keep us honest. They keep us focused and they force us to play with our 'A' game. They've certainly opened some eyes in our company to styles of gameplay that are different than we would have come up with inside SOE. I hope they're also opening up the eyes of other MMO developers that the 'old school' probably won't cut it any more. I'm glad that we went in the direction we did with EQ II because had we stuck with making an even "harder core" game, I think bad things would have happened. We need to be about larger scale mass-entertainment… because that's what online gaming is slowly becoming. Our games just need to be fun… and easy to get into.

In the United States there are around 2 Million paying online gamers (this is after WoW btw). That's up from 250,000 back before EverQuest was released... and I'm only counting the MMO's.. if you start to add in the Pogo's of the world we're probably talking about 3-4 Million online gamers... and I have no idea what scary numbers some of these online poker places are bringing in.

What this means is that making future online games is a big business that is going to be increasingly competitive. I think that's good for you, and good for us. It's going to insure great games get made… and I can tell you we're in this for the long haul."

 

I mean to me, it seems more like they are just taking what they like from WoW instead of inventing something better themselves? So I don't really get the keeping them honest thing?  I mean look how badly they botched SWG's game up by trying to make it a twitchy point and click FPS, in the name of competition and making it a better experience for gamers. I think they are going about it the wrong way and instead of inventing something new and creative to compete, they are just taking what they like from WoW and it seems to me they might be playing and enjoying the competition too much for our own good from the sounds of it?  I mean he says its making them bring their A game, I don't see it, not when they just seem to be reusing older graphic elements and repainting them (like for the brand new level 40 guild reward horses, they just took the Maj'Dul Horse and put fire on its feet and eyes and a rainbow cloud effect on the good side version), and taking things from WoW and other games.  Its not their A game its not even their C game. Believe me, I know they can do better with out having to take ideas from other MMO's and having to rehash the things we have in game already.  It just has a bad taste and smell about it.

And don't get me wrong, i'm not saying they are doing everything wrong, I say its about darn time to the PVP servers. I was one of the people that voted to make seperate PVP servers, I think its needed, because there are too many people out there just waiting for it, because they want to PVP each other to death.  All i'm really on about here is I KNOW THEY CAN DO BETTER and its starting to become too much about dollars & cents.

 

 

Message Edited by ironman2000 on 12-16-2005 11:43 PM

[Bad_Mojo]

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Jezekiell wrote:

I've been waiting for PvP details for a long time now, and I spent the majority of my EQLive time on Vallon Zek. So it's good to finally hear something about the plans for the upcoming PvP system.

Though reading over the bullet point list you've written I can't see anything regarding an incentive to do PvP, other then the fact that, you get to beat up the other Citys players, which gets dreadfully boring after a while if there is no purpose to PvP. ie. Where is the PvP content? Castle Siges? City assaults? Capturing of hotspot locations scattered around the world? All with bonuses to the winning side.

All I read from the above is mindless gankfests with an honor system similar sounding to "That Other Game".

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Just out of curiousity, what was the PvP content on Vallon Zek that kept you there for the majority of your time?  I quit EQLive years ago, but I don't remember much of any PvP content like that there...  Did they add things later?

[kaiwr]

Okay, so after finally reading all four pages I have a few points to make: 1.  When choosing EQ2 as my MMORPG (I only play/pay for one at a time) it came down pretty much to WOW and EQ2.  I chose EQ2 because I felt (and still feel) that while WOW is more environment oriented, EQ2 was more character oriented.  That's not to say our environment isn't beautiful, what I mean is that when playing EQ2 I always feel that the game is just better at making me feel like my character is an individual, unique, even if it is in some small way.  I am terrified that even with the betrayal quest intact that the changes in the classes will change this.  By consolidating all of this all the quests that brought her up to being what she is, her 'history' so to speak, no longer really means anything.  While I may have planned my character to be a monk from the start I feel that working up to what she now is was truly valuble.  Characters, at least at the beginging shouldn't just say 'oh, I want to be a necromancer' and then just BE one, it flattens the game and the character development if they are never required to seek out at least SOME training.  'oh I want to be a necro, maybe I should talk to this guy over here and he'll teach me some stuff about it.'  Now that works. 2. In regards to PVP I find it horrifing that you have decided to follow the WOW model of Good vs. Evil.  While I understand that from a lore concept it makes sense, many of my friends have left WOW for precisely this reason.  Becuase it was Good vs. Evil, when there were Massive armies of the good guys and so few bad guys that the term 'Horde' was a joke, the PVP was seriously unbalanced and had SIGNIFICANT problems.  If everbody decides they want to sign up for a certain team...what exactly would you plan to do about it?  Especially since with the betrayal quest in place, there would be ways of getting around any sort of  'allotment'. 3 In regards to the 'honor' system you have indicated in your letter, I would like to remind those of you at SOE that this is not WOW.  That those of us who play this game play it BECAUSE it is not WOW. (after all, if that's what we wanted, that's what we'd play)  You are not going to endear people by making a WOW clone.  What is going to make happy customers is a game that is different.  This is not to say that I don't appreciate certain changes you have made that mimic WOW (allowing someone to help me out with a locked encounter, thankyou,thankyou) but the more changes like this you make, the more I wonder why I'm playing EQ2 when I could be grouping with all my friends and buddies at work.  Please, keep EQ2 EQ2. 4 You mentioned extending the amount of lore that we would be exposed to early in the game and making the game more species specific early on.  I appreciate this part of the intended updates, a great deal. 5. Someone mentioned the possibility of intorducing more classes with the revamped system, and this is something I would love to see.  More classes more races (there's no such thing as too many in my eyes) more customization, even if it is in something as basic as my clothing. I plan to stick around and see how this all works out, but I have to say that the letter has as many worrisome points to me as good ones.  It just depends on how they're going to be implemented.

Message Edited by kaiwryn on 12-17-2005 01:03 AM

[Pero Salm]

Dear Scott,

 

Way back in June I posted a suggestion on how to improve EQ2.  Right now I think the main focus is to provide uniqueness among player races.  I suggested on making different mounts for different races so that not everyone is riding a horse. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=35416&query.id=233562#M35416.

 

What about racial armor?  I know you folks are working hard there making armor look better for weeks, but some kind of armor or clothing would provide good sense of lore among of all the other races.  So if had two guardians, one is an iksar the other is a barbarian,  the two races would wear heavy armor but there have a different look and design based on their race.  Maybe civilians in Qeynos or Freeport would wear clothing based on their race so that they look like a civilian in a city.

 

If you guys want to make pvp on some servers, that would be great for alot of people.  It would be even better if you make the game a little less bland by putting a bit more lore and unique sense among the races.

 

[Kordran]

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ironman2000 wrote:

I mean to me, it seems more like they are just taking what they like from WoW instead of inventing something better themselves? So I don't really get the keeping them honest thing?

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I don't think they're saying that they want to turn into WoW, they're saying that WoW demonstrated that the market is changing. Look at it this way. Back in the day, when UO was released (1997) if you just graduated from highschool, you're now in your mid 20s with a job, possibly a family, mortgage and all the rest. The good old days of "hardcore" playing where you could camp a quest mob for 18 hours while holed up in your bedroom littered with pizza boxes are long, long gone. You might be able to get in 2-3 hours, if you can sneak it past your wife and your "honey do" list. You still love to play games, but there's a lot competing for your limited entertainment time... so the time you do spend, you want it to be focused on the "fun" part.

There are still those masochistic folks who think that hardcore style play is best and the more tedious, the more bladder-bursting the game, the better. They're the ones currently drooling over Vanguard. What WoW clearly demonstrated to game companies, designers, etc. was that there were even more -- many more -- people who would be interested in playing their games if they didn't have those "hardcore features". That there was indeed a market for MMORPG players where the game was more casual, supported both solo and group play and gave players more of a sense of being able to complete something (finish some quests, gain a level, whatever) in a few hours of playtime... not a few days or a few weeks.

It also reinforced a core concept that I think designers are really just starting to understand: challenge in a game should be driven by the content, not the mechanics of how the game is played. While tying a player's hands behind their proverbial back can make a fight more challenging, it doesn't make it more fun. And that's the key issue.

It's only taken them about a decade to figure this out, but hey -- better late than never. :smileytongue:

Message Edited by Kordran on 12-17-2005 04:37 AM

[Jezekie]

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Runelaron wrote:and you have to understand that EQ1 or Live.. has 4 PvP servers, all with different rulesets so there is no limit.. there is

Dietys, Race - Good Evil, Race - Size, and Chaos. So the PVP or implementation of anything in this game is limitless.. Just give them time instead of making short uninformed comments.. read the forums.  or read dev tracker you get hints about stuff al the like.. like    Kingdom of Sky.

Isnt that right moongraud.. a little forum slip?

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They consolidated the servers in to 1 server a long time ago.

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Bad_Mojo wrote:

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Jezekiell wrote:

I've been waiting for PvP details for a long time now, and I spent the majority of my EQLive time on Vallon Zek. So it's good to finally hear something about the plans for the upcoming PvP system.Though reading over the bullet point list you've written I can't see anything regarding an incentive to do PvP, other then the fact that, you get to beat up the other Citys players, which gets dreadfully boring after a while if there is no purpose to PvP. ie. Where is the PvP content? Castle Siges? City assaults? Capturing of hotspot locations scattered around the world? All with bonuses to the winning side.All I read from the above is mindless gankfests with an honor system similar sounding to "That Other Game".

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Just out of curiousity, what was the PvP content on Vallon Zek that kept you there for the majority of your time?  I quit EQLive years ago, but I don't remember much of any PvP content like that there...  Did they add things later?

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There wasn't any content, what I didn't say in my post was that I moved to Stormhammer (Legends server) a while after the release of Luclin when PvP pretty much was dead on Vallon Zek. PvP was best around the Kunark/Velius time, while not having any content at that time, there also wasn't any other alternatives for a PvP online experince.A PvP system today needs something other then a mindless fragfest if it's going to attract something other then a bunch of lamers and foster a healthy community.

[Xalmat]

Question: Will the game still "start" at level 3 like it does now, or will the game be redesigned to have you kill something other than two rats and a goblin at level 1? (Really, at present you can't even consider levels 1 and 2 "true" levels; level 1 is only available on the Far Journey, and level 2 you clear simply by hailing an NPC).

[HisMajes]

When i bought EQ2 in February i hadn't even heard of WoW, so i bought EQ2, but instead of making EQ2 like WoW, or vicea versa, they should just each go in consecutive rounds of "1-upping" each other, i think SOE needs to make the game appeal to a larger crowd, also while not leaving the hardcore players who have been playing since "Day 1" in the dust. WoW is a spitting image of EQ1 in my opinion. Also when i think of the idea MMO i think of Everquest, But i give credit for Blizzard for turning an RTS game into a MMO game. Also i think that SOE does a better job manageing the game, EQ2 has had 17 updates and an Expansion, and WoW has had a measly 8 (last i checked) I played the WoW 10 day trial, for 2 days, and coulnd't log in 25% of the time due to full servers and thats not even close to all the lag i hear about, was sick of it, the graphics were stale, the plot was horrible, in my opinion the whole Warcraft plot is a little weird, if they have guns and tanks, and all that good stuff, why is the game stuck in the 1200's. (OK time to stop bashing WoW)

 

The point is i hear more and have expierenced more bad things about WoW then any other game i've played, Yet i hear nothing of EQ2 i belive if more people from WoW played EQ2 they would 50% switch, ive already "converted" 2 of my friends from WoW to EQ2 and they thank me.

 

Anyway getting off-topic again, when game company's for an MMO compete, the only people winning are the players.

 

-I hear bad things about WoW, and see it everywhere, and hear nothing of EQ2, more advertiseing(didn't blizzard put out a Coca-Cola commercial in China or something.)

Message Edited by HisMajesty on 12-17-2005 06:08 AM

[Nahlis]

I think I'd more recommend a middle ground with keeping the basic 4 classes for levels 1-10 and then goign directly to sub-class.  I just think for newcomers to the game having the basic 4 is a nicer introduction than having to choose a particular sub-class right from the start.  Just my 2 cents.

[JoePa]

This game has so many things going for it that differentiate it from WOW: 1. Many more quests 2. Much deeper multi-part quests 3. Deep Spell System (Multiple levels, different names, etc.) 4. In-depth Crafting 5. Small group friendly 6. End-game not dependent on 40-man raids to progress There are game mechanics that are present in WOW that make sense to implement, by doing so in no way makes this game a WOW clone.  The naysayers will never stop until Vanguard has been released and they have moved on to that game.   For the rest of you, enjoy what you have, it is the best out there at the present time, and will continue as long as SOE is commited to improving the game for all levels.  The more immersive the beginning is, the better able this game will be to attract new players. I salute the Devs for taking the best aspects of ANY game and trying to incorporate into thiers.

[ironman2000]

Look, Kordran, what I am saying really is we are starting to lose our unique identity as a game, we are heading down a path that everyone is starting to go and WoW has been since they started.  Someone else stated it should be a 1-up one each other to be competitive, not a follow suit to what you like from other games, you can never 1-up anyone that way and in the mean time, we lose our unique identity as a game.  How do you think people that payed to play WoW and found they didn't like it and came here for something different are beginning to feel now that elements of WoW are starting to creep in and the new inovations we are getting are rehashes of old graphics with different colors and effects? I mean instead of being EVERQUEST II we are just going to be another MMORPG in the pack with nothing that makes us different.  As far as the WoW world, its seemless, but its graphically less impressive then EQ II's world, its flaws are hidden with bloom effects and bad textures.

[ironman2000]

JoePa, i'm not saying we don't have any thing that makes us different, we have a lot, but they are slowly taking that stuff away, the first step is the picking of your main class at character creation time, and the people that have moved from WoW to us are going to see the similarities, changes to this game and either not come here or just stay over there.  I want Everquest II to do well and keep going, this is MY GAME, as well as EVERYONE ELSE's GAME, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't my CHOICE OF GAME and we all want the same, for it to survive in tact and evolve in a FRESH NEW WAY and do very well, but not start to adopt elements from other games and reuse old elements from this game repackaged in new colors.  I do give props for the world, its beautiful, its elegant and realistic, the quests we have now are fun and challenging, the recent upper level armors are very cool looking and I greatly appreaciate how much more difficult it is to create armor for our game, because WoW uses cheap looking painted on armor for cloth, leather and chainmail, for what we have in the game graphically is amazing when you put it side by side with something like WoW or Lineage or Guild Wars, but with so many we don't need to blend in more we need to stand out more in other areas, IE: the Class System.

 

If they do decide to change it, don't rush it out there, if its not flawless don't put it out to the general public, I mean the Star Wars Galaxies nightmare we don't need here, I mean they said it was a long time in coming but they rushed it out for some reason and its hurt that game emensely, broken quest, broken classes, and broken worlds.  Rushing to do it isn't the way to go either, take some time and work out all the bugs and address concerns about the content.  You can't fix whats broken if you constantly revamp it all.  I mean if Vanguard comes out and does well I guess we'll see its elements added to our game too then?  I don't play Vanguard and I don't intend to play it, I picked EQ II for a reason and thats why i'm still here.

Message Edited by ironman2000 on 12-17-2005 09:04 AM

[aerith33]

I think that Betrayal NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED:  at the very LEAST, bring the limit for betrayal to Level 20 to bring it in line with the changes coming to Subclass definitiion.  The "Level 17 Rule" was never clearly stated anywhere in game Lore or Content and I personally have spoken with many people who, not having any clue there was a Level cut-off for betrayal now have characters "stucK" in one city or the other unable to do anything to move them.  In some extreme situations, characters are "broken" by this very game mechanic to the point of people quitting the game altogether!!!

I think that some options SOE should look at for altering Betrayal should be the following:

          a.  In short, define "starting a quest" as the appearance of that quest in one's quest Journal?  That is how most quests are defined in this game but, for some odd reason, Betrayal does NOT work this way?

          b.  Enable players to be able to turn off ALL Experience....not "just" combat experience.  This would prevent the  "accident" of a player accidentally crossing a level threshold from happening in the first place.

          c.  Once the Betrayal quest appears in someone's quest journal, have the game recognize it as "started" so that even if the player accidentally "dings" 18 afterwards, the game itself would prevent them from leveling at that point.  This is how it works with Citizenship with regards to the Newbie Island?  If one  reaches 220% beyond Level 6, they can earn no more experience until AFTER they become a citizen.  Same thing occurs with the Sub-Class from Level 19 to 20.  IMHO, Betrayal should have a cut-off at Level 20 so it is in line with SubClass choice and, once started (by speaking with the NPC who starts the process) should prevent the individual from earning further experience beyond that point.

         d.  All Players of all levels should have the option of Betrayal at ANY level by simply scaling the difficulty level of the mobs in the Betrayal quest instance to player level.  If mob difficulty can be scaled in other instanced zones throughout the game, they should be scaleable in the Betrayal instance as well.

 

 

 

Message Edited by aerith3366 on 12-17-2005 12:52 PM

[selch]

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Blackguard wrote:

 

There will, of course, always be balance issues that need to be hammered out after PvP hits a wide audience. However, what Scott was pointing out here is that we aren't going to change any PvE class balancing because of PvP. We don't have to, because our coders were able to build in a method for us to have completely separate PvE and PvP effects for every spell.

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LOL, SOE should hire this kind of developers to SWG before it died. Anyway.. What I was wondering about new class system is,  will there be new voice overs since everything is changing?

 

 

[Goozman]

The destruction of the archetype system is somethin' I've been sayin was necessary since day 1. You just don't get a feel for the 6 and then 2 classes you are to become until you are actually level 24 or so. This change is exciting, but what's sad is all my slots are full. We need at least 2 new character slots!

 

Hopefully with us choosing a class from day 1, the focus can be on every class's uniqueness, and the idea that "everyone does everything equally" will just be a memory

[JoePa]

Ironman, are the only changes that SOE is allowed to implement, ones that DONT mirror another game?  We will be hard pressed to receive any improvements as there is probably little in the genre that has not been explored one way or another, in any game.  WOW does not have the market on character class creation at player start, this mechanic is pretty much the industry standard, why do you think that is,  because it works.  SOE tried something different in EQ2, and has backed off because it is more prohibitive then beneficial.  Yes it makes the game unique in this area, but is that a game defining feature?  Will players flock here because of it?  I think not. Are more racial specific quests a good or bad thing?  I think good, but certainly not an original idea, you can look to EQ and WOW for their versions of this implementation. The elements in the post above are the things that keep me here, the changes they mention will not shatter my world one way or another, nor most that are already here.  They could go a long way to enriching the experiance of newer players, more of which would be a good thing.  You need to hook them as soon as possible, adding some similarities might enable that.  There are enough differences out there to show how unique this game is compared to the rest out there.

Message Edited by JoePa on 12-17-2005 10:38 AM

[Stinkor]

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Foolsfolly wrote:
I can't believe you are removing the class progression 1-20. IMO, this is the worst change since the creation of this game.

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I agree.  Sony stop F'ing around with these elements of the game. I swear if you ruin this game like you did SWG .... The progression from 1-20 gave me something to work torwards, I leveled 5 characters through this system, Necro , Coercer, Shadowknight, Defiler, Assasin, and I am a causal gamer.  I know what  I talking about rather than one of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] focus groups. Hear this... We like it the way it is now, go work on a expansion or something and leave the progession alone. So angry with you :smileymad:

[MeridianR]

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Stinkor wrote:

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Foolsfolly wrote:I can't believe you are removing the class progression 1-20. IMO, this is the worst change since the creation of this game.

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I agree.  Sony stop F'ing around with these elements of the game. I swear if you ruin this game like you did SWG .... The progression from 1-20 gave me something to work torwards, I leveled 5 characters through this system, Necro , Coercer, Shadowknight, Defiler, Assasin, and I am a causal gamer.  I know what  I talking about rather than one of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] focus groups. Hear this... We like it the way it is now, go work on a expansion or something and leave the progession alone. So angry with you :smileymad:

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Personally I like the change.  The main reason I don't alt as much, is because I don't want to have to go through 20 levels just to pick my final class.   With this change, I can try out a couple classes that I wanted to

[selch]

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Stinkor wrote:

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Foolsfolly wrote:
I can't believe you are removing the class progression 1-20. IMO, this is the worst change since the creation of this game.

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I agree.  Sony stop F'ing around with these elements of the game. I swear if you ruin this game like you did SWG .... The progression from 1-20 gave me something to work torwards, I leveled 5 characters through this system, Necro , Coercer, Shadowknight, Defiler, Assasin, and I am a causal gamer.  I know what  I talking about rather than one of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] focus groups. Hear this... We like it the way it is now, go work on a expansion or something and leave the progession alone. So angry with you :smileymad:

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Agree with you here, we have seen how focus groups know zero thing about gaming with what they did to SWG.  They need to stop doing radical changes that will alienate playerbase.

 

[Shoon]

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Kordran wrote:

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Shoonie wrote:

I think that these are all awesome changes. Me and a few friends have been waiting for news on the PvP server for a while now. One thing I hope the PvP servers do not include though: The automatic facing of your enemy when you autoattack. In my opinion, it adds to the skill level needed in PvP if you have to use your camera to face the opponent and aren't automatically pointed in their direction. I think many people would agree with me on this.

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This is the same debate that has been ongoing for years with DAOC and the /face and /stick commands. People like yourself think that it dumbs down PvP and removes an element of skill. However, the one thing that you have to consider is that it also is somewhat of an equalizer for those who have slower Internet connections, high latency or lower-end hardware; this is particularly true when you consider that some classes can get damage bonuses from rear attacks, etc.

 

I agree that, if all things were equal, it would be better to require the player manage this. However, how fun is it to know that you've just got nailed by a Ranger, not because you're an unskilled player, but because a lag spike or graphics hitch meant that you couldn't turn to face your attacker in time? Not very.

 

I'd also presume that the last thing they want to do is turn this into a twitch game where you're basically playing a medieval fantasy version of Quake. At its core, the game should still about character development and progression, not just endless fragfests. How new your hardware is or how low your ping time is shouldn't be a significant factor in a player's ability to enjoy PvP, in my opinion.

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People who get lag spikes are able to turn down their graphics settings. If you got a lag spike on a PvP server fighting someone, it would be the same as getting a lag spike on a PvE server fighting a mob. Same with internet connection. Like you stated above, some classes get dmg bonuses from rear end attacks. They should be able to make full use of these in a PvP fight. If your opponent is always locked on to you it would be difficult to pull these off. Also, in games like quake, you are shooting and aiming a gun. A game like EQ2 is much slower and this change would hardly make it a "twitch" game. Having more mobility in a PvP fight hardly makes this game a fragfest.

[Stinkor]

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MeridianR wrote:

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Personally I like the change.  The main reason I don't alt as much, is because I don't want to have to go through 20 levels just to pick my final class.   With this change, I can try out a couple classes that I wanted to

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I don't fault you for your interest in the changes, but you do not understand the devil you are dancing with, that being SOE. They have proven that they do not care how their changes affect their player base, but are more interested in the bottom line. As a player community we really need to be on guard against any radical changes SOE proposes to any of their MMO's.  This is our game as much so, if not more than it is theirs. We invested our time and money into the game for our characters, that we love. They invest their time and money so they can get more money. There isn't anything wrong with SOE making money but you have to understand that we are on different sides here, from where they stand, and eventually the two are going to come into conflict.  Honestly they are not making this change so you can have more fun they are making it so that they can entice new players more easily by giving them immediate gratification into their class of choice versus earning it. For those players who have played SWG this sounds all to familar.

 

[MeridianR]

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Stinkor wrote:

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MeridianR wrote:

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Personally I like the change.  The main reason I don't alt as much, is because I don't want to have to go through 20 levels just to pick my final class.   With this change, I can try out a couple classes that I wanted to

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I don't fault you for your interest in the changes, but you do not understand the devil you are dancing with, that being SOE. They have proven that they do not care how their changes affect their player base, but are more interested in the bottom line. As a player community we really need to be on guard against any radical changes SOE proposes to any of their MMO's.  This is our game as much so, if not more than it is theirs. We invested our time and money into the game for our characters, that we love. They invest their time and money so they can get more money. There isn't anything wrong with SOE making money but you have to understand that we are on different sides here, from where they stand, and eventually the two are going to come into conflict.  Honestly they are not making this change so you can have more fun they are making it so that they can entice new players more easily by giving them immediate gratification into their class of choice versus earning it. For those players who have played SWG this sounds all to familar.

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BTW - I played SWG from release until EQ2 was released.  I also subscribe to Station Access, and still post on my SWG server board (Tarquinas) every so often....I know about the first Combat Upgrade there, and I know about the NGE when Lucas Arts pretty much took over (Julio Torres...!!)  - While I don't play anymore (Have a pre-publish 9 jedi, and mastered every profession except Politician with my main ) I keep up to date with the changes, since I am an avid Star Wars fan. I am far from an SoE fanboi also, but I believe this change will allow newer players (and also players who want to alt - which equal replay value) a chance to learn there class earlier, and in turn become better players down the line.   Currently the way that the progression is, it takes people 20 levels before they even get a chance to play a class they are going to play for 40+ more levels down the road....and in turn need to relearn the way they play, since they start getting there class defined spells @ L20+   - Take for example a Paladin (which I play) from L2-20 you get no direct heal spell at all....so you need to learn how to solo, fight without being able to heal yourself.  L20+ when you first get Blessed Aid, soloing becomes 100% different, because you can now heal yourself. I do understand, why some peopel might be upset at this change, and think that it is a huge game breaking change, but I believe once people try it out, they will appreciate it...for the simple fact that they don't have to go through more then 1 learning curve.

[Stinkor]

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MeridianR wrote:

BTW - I played SWG from release until EQ2 was released.  I also subscribe to Station Access, and still post on my SWG server board (Tarquinas) every so often....I know about the first Combat Upgrade there, and I know about the NGE when Lucas Arts pretty much took over (Julio Torres...!!)  - While I don't play anymore (Have a pre-publish 9 jedi, and mastered every profession except Politician with my main ) I keep up to date with the changes, since I am an avid Star Wars fan.

I am far from an SoE fanboi also, but I believe this change will allow newer players (and also players who want to alt - which equal replay value) a chance to learn there class earlier, and in turn become better players down the line.   Currently the way that the progression is, it takes people 20 levels before they even get a chance to play a class they are going to play for 40+ more levels down the road....and in turn need to relearn the way they play, since they start getting there class defined spells @ L20+   - Take for example a Paladin (which I play) from L2-20 you get no direct heal spell at all....so you need to learn how to solo, fight without being able to heal yourself.  L20+ when you first get Blessed Aid, soloing becomes 100% different, because you can now heal yourself.

I do understand, why some peopel might be upset at this change, and think that it is a huge game breaking change, but I believe once people try it out, they will appreciate it...for the simple fact that they don't have to go through more then 1 learning curve.

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I guess it is just a difference of opinion. I like the fact that there was a learning curve and that the 1-20 class progression  had some differences . It kept me moving because I knew  I would get some totally new spells/ablities not just upgrades. What is wrong with learning curves anyways? Guess it is just me again I like some complexity. I actually would like it if between 20 and 60 we could further specialize.

My main point though is that players need to be wary anytime SOE implents a major change like this.

[Kordran]

I don't think it's a learning curve issue, really.

 

From my personal perspective, the class and subclass specializations and quests are fun ... the first time. However, unless you're chosing a completely different archtype, it really does become an exercise in pointless tedium for rerolls. And replayability has to be something they focus on because once you've gotten a toon to level 60, you have two choices: raid constantly, or reroll a new character.

 

Well, there's a third option: quit. But since that's what they'd prefer you not do, they need to focus on the first two options. The point they make is valid in that the class progression system was designed to "hold your hand" and help you determine what your ultimate profession would be. It wasn't put in to make things challenging or more difficult, the goal for the system was to reduce the learning curve for new players. But that's obviously not how it's working out. Most players, having researched the game before they start playing, have already decided what class they want to be. And if you want to be a necro, then that's what it should "feel like" when you begin playing... not "generic_mage_001" that turns into the class that you want 20 levels later.

 

Now, what would be nice is if they offered some mechanism, possibly a complex quest on the order of the betrayal quest, that allowed you to change your class within a given archtype once before you hit some milestone, like level 20. You'd lose any spell upgrades, and you'd start over with all Apprentice I spells at that level for your new class. So if you pick Berserker as your class but then decide that you'd really prefer to be a Paladin, there'd be a mechanism to do that.

[Sourto]

I didn't see this asked earlier:

With the new "archtype free" system will there still be progression quests?  Frankly they are some of the better quests in the game and it's sad enough that we only get two in the current system.  I'd hate to think they were being done away with totally.

 

In fact I'd prefer to see more added... say one every 10 levels.  Taking away archtypes AND any sprt of progression removes all context from the classes.  It's bad enough we don't have specific trainers and/or guilds for our classes.

[Kordran]

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Shoonie wrote:

People who get lag spikes are able to turn down their graphics settings. If you got a lag spike on a PvP server fighting someone, it would be the same as getting a lag spike on a PvE server fighting a mob. Same with internet connection. Like you stated above, some classes get dmg bonuses from rear end attacks. They should be able to make full use of these in a PvP fight. If your opponent is always locked on to you it would be difficult to pull these off. Also, in games like quake, you are shooting and aiming a gun. A game like EQ2 is much slower and this change would hardly make it a "twitch" game. Having more mobility in a PvP fight hardly makes this game a fragfest.

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First, I doubt that you'll find PvP combat comprable to PvE in terms of speed or tolerance for high-latency conditions. In every game that I've played, PvP combat is invariably faster paced. Usually much faster.

 

Second, the issue with the ability to make "full use" of positional attacks is true, and they should be able to. But once I tell my character to start attacking back, then it shouldn't require I move myself around. The whole difference between an FPS and an MMORPG (or one of the key differences, anyway) is that in an FPS, it is you that are doing the fighting. Your reflexes, you reaction time, your skill at using the game mechanics to attack and defend. In an MMORPG, it is your character that is doing the fighting. Emphasis is on character development, skill selection, equipment, and so on.

 

Simply put, if you attack me from the rear and I hit my autoattack button, would it make sense for my character to continue to stand there with his back turned to you while you keep stabbing me in the rear end? No, it would not. It would make sense for me to turn and face you. And that's exactly what the game should do. Where the "player skill" in the game should come in should be how I respond to your attack, with what spells, attacks or defensive maneuvers of my own. Not how quickly I can spin my camera around. This is not a shooter, and it is not and should not be about one's mechanical skills with the keyboard and mouse.

[ganjookie]

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Kasandria wrote:

I look forward to the progression changes.  I love multi toons but all but my top two have stalled pre 20 out of sheer boredom.  I think this will help. 

 

As far as PvP, I hate it, as long as it stays off my server I don't care what you do with it. 

 

I'm not sure that being below 20 and not being able to be evil enough is the reason that not many play on the evil side though if that is what you're thinking.  Freeport is just ugly and depressing.  I don't know where you guys got the idea that evil folks don't like pretty things, I'm fairly sure that's why many evil people ARE evil because they revere sparkle and surface things beyond harmony and happiness.  If it were MY game, I'd leave the good side alone and make the evil side very much like Vegas (I'm not saying Vegas is evil) with steel towers and flashing neon lights, and then have the seemy underside too of course, but the whole place is just.. grey.

 

Anyway, I'm loving the Frostfell idea as well.  Have a good Frostfell one and all.

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Listen Joel Shumacher , we had enough of that when took over Batman from tim burton.  Please do not infect Freeeport like you did Gotham. Good Day Sir

[kaiwr]

So I've been thinking about the whole betrayal quest thing and I realized a few things.  Originally the betrayal level limit was to prevent players from transporting an evil only class or a good only class to the opposite city.  In one of the replies to this thread by one of the guys from SOE they said that betrayal quest (in regards to picking your class at the beginning) would work by switching you to the opposite class.  As such a Bruiser, after betraying, would become a Monk and etc.  If this is true, I see no reason why the betrayal quest would need to continue with the level cap.  All that would have to happen is that no matter what level you are, your class, if it is specific to the city be swapped.  I feel strongly that this could solve many of the problems that people have had all along with the Betrayal quests.  As suggested above, the difficulty could be scaled to each individuals level, (as the Halloween haunted house quest was) so the integrity of completing something difficult would still exist.  SOE, maybe you could look into this?