Conjuror pets being nerfed again?

Jeepned2 · 11-07-2006, 11:00 AM

Ok..not sure how accurate the information is, but just go off the conjuror threads and according to some on beta the pets are getting nerfed again. They take a hit on health, power, and big hits on resists and stats. If what I have read on the conjuror forums is true (pictures of pets on beta compared to current), then why even have pets anymore. Give us a big nuke and call us Conzards. The massive resist and stat degrades make them useless against any mob with an AoE, can you say "One hit wonders"?. I can see spending 50% of a fight recasting main pets, I can also see taking at least a 50% reduction in dps due to out of action with recasting main pets so much. I don't know if the same goes for the Necro pets, you might want to check the Necro forums.

Glad I'm leveling a Coercer so I can retire my Conjuror. Hate losing all that fabled equipement and master spells to a toon that I won't play anymore, but hey, if you really are nerfing the pets that much, don't see a reason to play a conjuror. Umm maybe have on hand for Call of the Hero, and start charging a plat per call. That will become the only reason for having a conjuror on a raid, Oh and the occasional pet pull that any Mystic can do just as well. Speaking of Mystics, I wonder if the nerf is so bad that even they will be able to out dps me now?

Sorry I didn't realize that the conjuror's were due for another nerf so soon, thought the nerfs went round robin and it was someone else's turn to get the hammer.

Also sorry if I sound a little bitter. But since the scouts whined so much and got summoners nerfed last time, and Sony's normal proceedure of instead of fixing the class that is out of wack but nerfing others, I feel that two nerfs is a row is un-called for.

swordfel · 11-07-2006, 12:27 PM

its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions.

DobyMT · 11-07-2006, 12:32 PM

swordfel wrote:

its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions.

I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up.

Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick.

Kavoc · 11-07-2006, 12:33 PM

First of all, beta isn't over. There are still a ton of changes being made to balance everything out, so don't get upset until this hits live. Many spells and equipment were changed to be much closer to their live versions just this last Saturday (Nov. 3).Secondly, the entire combat system is being changed to allow for different stat caps and such. This means that most if not all stats of everything (gear, people, pets, spells) had to be changed to fit the new system. You can look at the photos in the conjuror forum and be upset at the dramatic reduction in stats, but until you know how these new stats fit into the new system, you can't really see the whole picture. What you have to consider is that in addition to you and your pets stats changing, all the mobs have been changed also.To give an example, my dirge has had a huge reduction in resists and mitigation when looking at live compared to beta, yet on beta I was able to solo blue con herioc nameds 2 levels below my own (whether this will make to live I have no idea). On live I can't solo many (if any) low green heroic nameds.You may have gotten nerf, I have no way to prove otherwise, but at least wait for this to hit the live servers and test it out before you make any harsh judgements. I think and hope you will be pleasantly surprised.

Message Edited by liquid_zero on 11-06-2006 11:35 PM

swordfel · 11-07-2006, 12:40 PM

DobyMT wrote:

swordfel wrote:

its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions.

I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up.

Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick.

how do you know everyone is getting nerfed 10%? how do you know conjys/necroes are getting nerfed 20%? atm, thats all just an estimate. you have no facts to back it up, its all just assumption on your part. if you can get some numbers to prove this, then i might believe you, but as is, your just making numbers up off the top of your head. ]

just because something is on beta does not mean it will go live.

Message Edited by swordfel on 11-06-2006 11:41 PM

DobyMT · 11-07-2006, 12:43 PM

swordfel wrote:

DobyMT wrote:

swordfel wrote:

its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions.

I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up.

Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick.

how do you know everyone is getting nerfed 10%? how do you know conjys/necroes are getting nerfed 20%? atm, thats all just an estimate. you have no facts to back it up, its all just assumption on your part. if you can get some numbers to prove this, then i might believe you, but as is, your just making numbers up off the top of your head. ]

just because something is on beta does not mean it will go live.

Message Edited by swordfel on 11-06-2006 11:41 PM

That's where I got it from. It was a number for argument's sake.

swordfel · 11-07-2006, 12:47 PM

DobyMT wrote:

swordfel wrote:

DobyMT wrote:

swordfel wrote:

its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions.

I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up.

Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick.

how do you know everyone is getting nerfed 10%? how do you know conjys/necroes are getting nerfed 20%? atm, thats all just an estimate. you have no facts to back it up, its all just assumption on your part. if you can get some numbers to prove this, then i might believe you, but as is, your just making numbers up off the top of your head. ]

just because something is on beta does not mean it will go live.

Message Edited by swordfel on 11-06-2006 11:41 PM

That's where I got it from. It was a number for argument's sake.

thats not my point, my point is, how do you know that conjys/necros are getting hit twice as hard as everyone else? what makes you so sure that, using your example, conjys/necros are getting nerfed by 20% while everyone else is being nerfed by 10%? how do you know for sure that its not a 5% nerf to pets and a 5% nerf to the actual summoner, resulting in a 10% overall nerf?

DobyMT · 11-07-2006, 12:51 PM

because right now on Beta, and I realize its on Beta, but this stuff usually sticks, Conjuror pets I KNOW, Necro pets, I'm safely assuming, are reduced atm by 25-30%. That is not a fictitious number, it has been done and tested over and over. I was using safe easy to add numbers...that's all. And I am telling you, no one else is getting hit like that.

Besual · 11-07-2006, 12:55 PM

May be you should check your math again.You say a conjurer is 50% himself and 50% is his pet. Right? You say yourself will lose 10% and your pet will lose 10%. Right? Now what ist 10% of 50%? ... Hm? Ok, I will help you. It's 5%. And 5% (yourself) + 5% (pet) are 10% (total) and not 20%.PS: Before you post on something you heard from a friend how has a brother in law knowing someone who ... you better test the changes on beta / test server.

DobyMT · 11-07-2006, 01:05 PM

Oh my God, I asumed that this would be easy to understand.

Ok we have a Conjuror and his pet. Each does 100% damage, but that is only half of the entire dmg encounter. See? 10% of the pet's damage is a 10% reduction. 10% of the Conjurors damage is a 10% reduction. Therefore, easily added to 20%. Just because our pets and us are different, it doesn't mean that we should BOTH get nerfed. However, what you proposed would be nice, I wouldn't mind a 5% to myself and pet. Hope you read this developers. SMILEY

Kavoc · 11-07-2006, 01:17 PM

DobyMT wrote:

Oh my God, I asumed that this would be easy to understand.

Ok we have a Conjuror and his pet. Each does 100% damage, but that is only half of the entire dmg encounter. See? 10% of the pet's damage is a 10% reduction. 10% of the Conjurors damage is a 10% reduction. Therefore, easily added to 20%. Just because our pets and us are different, it doesn't mean that we should BOTH get nerfed. However, what you proposed would be nice, I wouldn't mind a 5% to myself and pet. Hope you read this developers.

Assuming for arguments sake, that you do 1000 total dps. With your numbers (50% from pet, 50% from you) thats 500 dps from your pet and 500 dps from you. 10% of 500 is 50. There for you lose a total of 100dps (50 from you, 50 from your pet). 100 is 10% of the original 1000.Anyhow, as I tried to point out earlier, comparing numbers from the beta server and live server is pointless. 1000dps on a mob with less hp and damage is not the equivalent of doing 1000dps against a mob with more hp and damage.

Tokam · 11-07-2006, 02:06 PM

Why can nobody here achieve 12 year old standards in maths?

Simple fact would be that summoner pets are recieving a reduction in stats and spell damage over and above the rescaling of spell damage.

This ~25% reduction in pet damage, coupled with the reductions made to health pool and resists is a nerf over and above the rescaling being done to bring everyone into line with the new diminishing returns system. Perhaps a dev could post in the update notes that summoner pet dps is being adjusted, or post here that this is the unforseen effect of pet stats being applied to the new returns curve. Im sick and tired of having my pets nerfed when no feedback is given in the update notes.

steelbadger · 11-07-2006, 03:59 PM

uhhhh...saying OMG MY PETZ BEING NERFED simply because your pet is now weaker than it was before is not stricktly correct.The ONLY way to decide if Conjuror pets are being "nerfed" is through combat testing. We already know that most mobs are being scaled down, we already know that all player classes are being scaled down. Whatever the hell you suggest the percentages are it doesn't matter. What does matter is what effect this rescaling has on each class.If Conjuror pets are taking a hit to their hitpoints they will be less effective against mobs as they are now than their current counterparts. However, if the mobs are also being scaled down it becomes impossible to simply look at the decrease in Conjuror apparent effectiveness and say that they are being nerfed.The only way to prove that this change is resulting in a real alteration in the effectiveness of Conjurors and their pets is to test exactly how effective they are against certain mobs and compare those results to what they where in the past.Less of this postulating.

Renpatsu · 11-07-2006, 05:44 PM

steelbadger wrote:
uhhhh...

saying OMG MY PETZ BEING NERFED simply because your pet is now weaker than it was before is not stricktly correct.

The ONLY way to decide if Conjuror pets are being "nerfed" is through combat testing. We already know that most mobs are being scaled down, we already know that all player classes are being scaled down. Whatever the hell you suggest the percentages are it doesn't matter. What does matter is what effect this rescaling has on each class.

If Conjuror pets are taking a hit to their hitpoints they will be less effective against mobs as they are now than their current counterparts. However, if the mobs are also being scaled down it becomes impossible to simply look at the decrease in Conjuror apparent effectiveness and say that they are being nerfed.

The only way to prove that this change is resulting in a real alteration in the effectiveness of Conjurors and their pets is to test exactly how effective they are against certain mobs and compare those results to what they where in the past.

Less of this postulating.

In general to this matter: It's still beta time, SoE still works on achievements and balancing and therefore I am not a fan of 'the world will collapse' threads. Constructive threads are fine.

The problem you don't see is, that there is no way to improve the lost stats, resists and health/power pools on the pets currently, but all players are able to get adorments and new gear to increase stats/resists. If you're now sitting at 510 INT on live as a player, you'll probably reach 700 after some time of raiding in EoF, just due to new items and adorments. There is no such progression for pets. The Ad3 mage pet sits at *drumroll* 157 INT on beta.

I do not expect my conjy base stats to decrease with EoF by numbers really. Of course my 5xx INT will be less damage with EoF due to the increased cap. And yes due to adjusted mobs, the outcome may be the very same like now. The pets take it worse, since the stats are decreased in addition to increasing the cap.

So with the current prospect, the pets will be toned down relative to players. We do not know if it's the intention of SoE due to lack of information.

BrelaBella · 11-07-2006, 10:40 PM

oh god, i currently play a Assassin, Conj and Warlock. and from current raid parses ( no im not gonna grind numbers with you much), conj and assassins are due for some more "rebalancing" . I know every person hates it when their class gets worked on by the devs, but sometimes its just needed. even though i love all my toons, i KNOW my assassin and conjy are leaps over other dpsers, esp wizzy types. MAYBE these new changes will rebalance the existing classes but persoanlly i think they will just create new disparities or broaden the existing ones.

Gastrocnemi · 11-08-2006, 03:13 AM

Ok, that's it, I want my conjy to be able to wear plate. Yes, plate. Sexay robe plate that cuts the top of my feet and bangs against my heels. It will be called "Ouchez Plated Robe of the Scabby Foot" and will have +100 all stats and 6k mitigation and 25k to all resists. The weight will be 200 and it will be glorious. My pet will cast me to melee with my "Wand O' Doom" that I will duel wield with my "Dagger O' Pokin'". This will truely balance out my class. I will finally be able to solo everything...while at work...and afk. :smileymad:

Edit: I also want the return of my lost jewelry mitigation. I want my earring to once again have 50mit. Seriously, it's my [Removed for Content]' ear!!!!:smileytongue:

Message Edited by Gastrocnemius on 11-07-2006 02:14 PM

pantswearer · 11-08-2006, 04:34 AM

DobyMT wrote:

swordfel wrote:

its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions.

I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up.

Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick.

uh...no. That's not how math works.

Here's an example. Let's say we do 100 damage, and our pet does 100 damage, for a total of 200 damage. Now, if we are each reduced by 10% to 90 damage, that is a total of 180 damage. The difference between the original total of 200 damage and the new total of 180 damage is 20 damage. A reduction of 20 damage from 200 happens to be 10%.

pantswearer · 11-08-2006, 04:37 AM

DobyMT wrote:

Oh my God, I asumed that this would be easy to understand.

Ok we have a Conjuror and his pet. Each does 100% damage, but that is only half of the entire dmg encounter. See? 10% of the pet's damage is a 10% reduction. 10% of the Conjurors damage is a 10% reduction. Therefore, easily added to 20%. Just because our pets and us are different, it doesn't mean that we should BOTH get nerfed. However, what you proposed would be nice, I wouldn't mind a 5% to myself and pet. Hope you read this developers.

Again, plug in some actual values. No matter what numbers you use, the math does not work out the way you state it does.

oh, and before you ask: yes, I AM a total math geek.

Fayline Fyrecat · 11-08-2006, 05:34 AM

Trying to quantify the nerfage based on numbers is not an accurate way to determine how our pets (or rather class in general) is going to be affected because there is no data on how the mobs are being adjusted for comparison.

The only accurate way to see how the change affects us is to fight mob X on live, then fight the same mob on beta and compare results. So far, this thread is all speculation and chicken-little syndrome IMO. I can't say I'll be happy with the changes and what's been said so far isn't encouraging, but I think too many people are freaking out about numbers that don't provide an accurate assesment of how our class is affected.

Deila · 11-08-2006, 05:43 AM

Regardless of how math is juggled around, in practice on Test (70 Necromancer), my pet isn't doing as well as he was before. Running the standard round of solo writs (handlers, basilisks, etc.), fights are taking longer, my pet is hitting the mobs for less relative damage, is getting hit more, and is having a harder time holding aggro. The change isn't huge, but it's certainly noticable.

With so many changes to character, pet and mob health, resists, etc., I think it's dangerous to compare fixed numbers. Example - if I did 1000 damage before and 800 now, but mob health was also proportionately dropped, it all ends up the same - broken down, if I do the same percentage of mob health in damage in the same amount of time, it all balances. But that's not what I'm seeing in practice on Test - I'm seeing what I described above. Still playable, I can still do writs, but my pet is suffering from these changes. Again.

That's just one area though - I haven't been able to raid at all since the combat changes went in, nor do much in the way of grouping/heroic instance content to get a feel for my overall effectiveness in those scenarios. I do suspect that it is reduced over where it was before - again, comparitively speaking. Still too early to tell if it's a significant amount of 'nerf', or how the reductions compare out with other class' nerfs. Summoners certainly aren't the only ones looking at changes for the worse in combat.

kenji · 11-08-2006, 06:29 AM

i wish i can equip my pet back to par like players if everyone take the same "nerf"

but the fact is no, even u got 20k resist on summoner, the pet will still stay at 500 resist.

christmascracker · 11-08-2006, 03:38 PM

Lockeye replied to these concerns on the Conjuror forum

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=29&message.id=17005#M17005

steelbadger · 11-08-2006, 06:46 PM

Lockeye wrote:

Stats on pets are restored in an upcoming beta update. They even get minor skill enhancements that they didn't have as well.

ZZZOMG!!1!1!one!NERFZ EM!!:smileywink:No need to worry then chaps.

11-07-2006, 12:27 PM	#2
swordfel Lord Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 72	its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions. __________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________ Hi, my name is Paper. Nerf Scissors, Rock is fine. __________________________________________________ ___________________________

11-07-2006, 12:32 PM	#3
DobyMT Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 568	swordfel wrote: its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up. Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick.

11-07-2006, 12:40 PM	#5
swordfel Lord Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 72	DobyMT wrote: swordfel wrote: its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up. Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick. how do you know everyone is getting nerfed 10%? how do you know conjys/necroes are getting nerfed 20%? atm, thats all just an estimate. you have no facts to back it up, its all just assumption on your part. if you can get some numbers to prove this, then i might believe you, but as is, your just making numbers up off the top of your head. ] just because something is on beta does not mean it will go live. Message Edited by swordfel on 11-06-2006 11:41 PM __________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________ Hi, my name is Paper. Nerf Scissors, Rock is fine. __________________________________________________ ___________________________

11-07-2006, 12:43 PM	#6
DobyMT Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 568	swordfel wrote: DobyMT wrote: swordfel wrote: its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up. Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick. how do you know everyone is getting nerfed 10%? how do you know conjys/necroes are getting nerfed 20%? atm, thats all just an estimate. you have no facts to back it up, its all just assumption on your part. if you can get some numbers to prove this, then i might believe you, but as is, your just making numbers up off the top of your head. ] just because something is on beta does not mean it will go live. Message Edited by swordfel on 11-06-2006 11:41 PM That's where I got it from. It was a number for argument's sake.

11-07-2006, 12:47 PM	#7
swordfel Lord Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 72	DobyMT wrote: swordfel wrote: DobyMT wrote: swordfel wrote: its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up. Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick. how do you know everyone is getting nerfed 10%? how do you know conjys/necroes are getting nerfed 20%? atm, thats all just an estimate. you have no facts to back it up, its all just assumption on your part. if you can get some numbers to prove this, then i might believe you, but as is, your just making numbers up off the top of your head. ] just because something is on beta does not mean it will go live. Message Edited by swordfel on 11-06-2006 11:41 PM That's where I got it from. It was a number for argument's sake. thats not my point, my point is, how do you know that conjys/necros are getting hit twice as hard as everyone else? what makes you so sure that, using your example, conjys/necros are getting nerfed by 20% while everyone else is being nerfed by 10%? how do you know for sure that its not a 5% nerf to pets and a 5% nerf to the actual summoner, resulting in a 10% overall nerf? __________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________ Hi, my name is Paper. Nerf Scissors, Rock is fine. __________________________________________________ ___________________________

11-07-2006, 11:00 AM	#1
Jeepned2 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 595	Ok..not sure how accurate the information is, but just go off the conjuror threads and according to some on beta the pets are getting nerfed again. They take a hit on health, power, and big hits on resists and stats. If what I have read on the conjuror forums is true (pictures of pets on beta compared to current), then why even have pets anymore. Give us a big nuke and call us Conzards. The massive resist and stat degrades make them useless against any mob with an AoE, can you say "One hit wonders"?. I can see spending 50% of a fight recasting main pets, I can also see taking at least a 50% reduction in dps due to out of action with recasting main pets so much. I don't know if the same goes for the Necro pets, you might want to check the Necro forums. Glad I'm leveling a Coercer so I can retire my Conjuror. Hate losing all that fabled equipement and master spells to a toon that I won't play anymore, but hey, if you really are nerfing the pets that much, don't see a reason to play a conjuror. Umm maybe have on hand for Call of the Hero, and start charging a plat per call. That will become the only reason for having a conjuror on a raid, Oh and the occasional pet pull that any Mystic can do just as well. Speaking of Mystics, I wonder if the nerf is so bad that even they will be able to out dps me now? Sorry I didn't realize that the conjuror's were due for another nerf so soon, thought the nerfs went round robin and it was someone else's turn to get the hammer. Also sorry if I sound a little bitter. But since the scouts whined so much and got summoners nerfed last time, and Sony's normal proceedure of instead of fixing the class that is out of wack but nerfing others, I feel that two nerfs is a row is un-called for.

11-07-2006, 12:33 PM	#4
Kavoc Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	First of all, beta isn't over. There are still a ton of changes being made to balance everything out, so don't get upset until this hits live. Many spells and equipment were changed to be much closer to their live versions just this last Saturday (Nov. 3).Secondly, the entire combat system is being changed to allow for different stat caps and such. This means that most if not all stats of everything (gear, people, pets, spells) had to be changed to fit the new system. You can look at the photos in the conjuror forum and be upset at the dramatic reduction in stats, but until you know how these new stats fit into the new system, you can't really see the whole picture. What you have to consider is that in addition to you and your pets stats changing, all the mobs have been changed also.To give an example, my dirge has had a huge reduction in resists and mitigation when looking at live compared to beta, yet on beta I was able to solo blue con herioc nameds 2 levels below my own (whether this will make to live I have no idea). On live I can't solo many (if any) low green heroic nameds.You may have gotten nerf, I have no way to prove otherwise, but at least wait for this to hit the live servers and test it out before you make any harsh judgements. I think and hope you will be pleasantly surprised. Message Edited by liquid_zero on 11-06-2006 11:35 PM

11-07-2006, 12:51 PM	#8
DobyMT Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 568	because right now on Beta, and I realize its on Beta, but this stuff usually sticks, Conjuror pets I KNOW, Necro pets, I'm safely assuming, are reduced atm by 25-30%. That is not a fictitious number, it has been done and tested over and over. I was using safe easy to add numbers...that's all. And I am telling you, no one else is getting hit like that.

11-07-2006, 12:55 PM	#9
Besual Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 830	May be you should check your math again.You say a conjurer is 50% himself and 50% is his pet. Right? You say yourself will lose 10% and your pet will lose 10%. Right? Now what ist 10% of 50%? ... Hm? Ok, I will help you. It's 5%. And 5% (yourself) + 5% (pet) are 10% (total) and not 20%.PS: Before you post on something you heard from a friend how has a brother in law knowing someone who ... you better test the changes on beta / test server. __________________ The Nu-Team Defiler 90 / Provisioner 90 Berserker 90 / Jeweler 90 Brigant 90 / Alchemist 90 Coercer 90 / Sage 90

11-07-2006, 01:05 PM	#10
DobyMT Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 568	Oh my God, I asumed that this would be easy to understand. Ok we have a Conjuror and his pet. Each does 100% damage, but that is only half of the entire dmg encounter. See? 10% of the pet's damage is a 10% reduction. 10% of the Conjurors damage is a 10% reduction. Therefore, easily added to 20%. Just because our pets and us are different, it doesn't mean that we should BOTH get nerfed. However, what you proposed would be nice, I wouldn't mind a 5% to myself and pet. Hope you read this developers.

11-07-2006, 01:17 PM	#11
Kavoc Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	DobyMT wrote: Oh my God, I asumed that this would be easy to understand. Ok we have a Conjuror and his pet. Each does 100% damage, but that is only half of the entire dmg encounter. See? 10% of the pet's damage is a 10% reduction. 10% of the Conjurors damage is a 10% reduction. Therefore, easily added to 20%. Just because our pets and us are different, it doesn't mean that we should BOTH get nerfed. However, what you proposed would be nice, I wouldn't mind a 5% to myself and pet. Hope you read this developers. Assuming for arguments sake, that you do 1000 total dps. With your numbers (50% from pet, 50% from you) thats 500 dps from your pet and 500 dps from you. 10% of 500 is 50. There for you lose a total of 100dps (50 from you, 50 from your pet). 100 is 10% of the original 1000.Anyhow, as I tried to point out earlier, comparing numbers from the beta server and live server is pointless. 1000dps on a mob with less hp and damage is not the equivalent of doing 1000dps against a mob with more hp and damage.

11-07-2006, 02:06 PM	#12
Tokam General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oxford Posts: 718	Why can nobody here achieve 12 year old standards in maths? Simple fact would be that summoner pets are recieving a reduction in stats and spell damage over and above the rescaling of spell damage. This ~25% reduction in pet damage, coupled with the reductions made to health pool and resists is a nerf over and above the rescaling being done to bring everyone into line with the new diminishing returns system. Perhaps a dev could post in the update notes that summoner pet dps is being adjusted, or post here that this is the unforseen effect of pet stats being applied to the new returns curve. Im sick and tired of having my pets nerfed when no feedback is given in the update notes. __________________

11-07-2006, 03:59 PM	#13
steelbadger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 816	uhhhh...saying OMG MY PETZ BEING NERFED simply because your pet is now weaker than it was before is not stricktly correct.The ONLY way to decide if Conjuror pets are being "nerfed" is through combat testing. We already know that most mobs are being scaled down, we already know that all player classes are being scaled down. Whatever the hell you suggest the percentages are it doesn't matter. What does matter is what effect this rescaling has on each class.If Conjuror pets are taking a hit to their hitpoints they will be less effective against mobs as they are now than their current counterparts. However, if the mobs are also being scaled down it becomes impossible to simply look at the decrease in Conjuror apparent effectiveness and say that they are being nerfed.The only way to prove that this change is resulting in a real alteration in the effectiveness of Conjurors and their pets is to test exactly how effective they are against certain mobs and compare those results to what they where in the past.Less of this postulating.

11-07-2006, 05:44 PM	#14
Renpatsu Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 188	steelbadger wrote: uhhhh... saying OMG MY PETZ BEING NERFED simply because your pet is now weaker than it was before is not stricktly correct. The ONLY way to decide if Conjuror pets are being "nerfed" is through combat testing. We already know that most mobs are being scaled down, we already know that all player classes are being scaled down. Whatever the hell you suggest the percentages are it doesn't matter. What does matter is what effect this rescaling has on each class. If Conjuror pets are taking a hit to their hitpoints they will be less effective against mobs as they are now than their current counterparts. However, if the mobs are also being scaled down it becomes impossible to simply look at the decrease in Conjuror apparent effectiveness and say that they are being nerfed. The only way to prove that this change is resulting in a real alteration in the effectiveness of Conjurors and their pets is to test exactly how effective they are against certain mobs and compare those results to what they where in the past. Less of this postulating. In general to this matter: It's still beta time, SoE still works on achievements and balancing and therefore I am not a fan of 'the world will collapse' threads. Constructive threads are fine. The problem you don't see is, that there is no way to improve the lost stats, resists and health/power pools on the pets currently, but all players are able to get adorments and new gear to increase stats/resists. If you're now sitting at 510 INT on live as a player, you'll probably reach 700 after some time of raiding in EoF, just due to new items and adorments. There is no such progression for pets. The Ad3 mage pet sits at drumroll 157 INT on beta. I do not expect my conjy base stats to decrease with EoF by numbers really. Of course my 5xx INT will be less damage with EoF due to the increased cap. And yes due to adjusted mobs, the outcome may be the very same like now. The pets take it worse, since the stats are decreased in addition to increasing the cap. So with the current prospect, the pets will be toned down relative to players. We do not know if it's the intention of SoE due to lack of information. __________________ Ceneen, Warden of Elysium on Lucan D'Lere

11-07-2006, 10:40 PM	#15
BrelaBella Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	oh god, i currently play a Assassin, Conj and Warlock. and from current raid parses ( no im not gonna grind numbers with you much), conj and assassins are due for some more "rebalancing" . I know every person hates it when their class gets worked on by the devs, but sometimes its just needed. even though i love all my toons, i KNOW my assassin and conjy are leaps over other dpsers, esp wizzy types. MAYBE these new changes will rebalance the existing classes but persoanlly i think they will just create new disparities or broaden the existing ones. __________________ "oh look its me"

11-08-2006, 03:13 AM	#16
Gastrocnemi Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 88	Ok, that's it, I want my conjy to be able to wear plate. Yes, plate. Sexay robe plate that cuts the top of my feet and bangs against my heels. It will be called "Ouchez Plated Robe of the Scabby Foot" and will have +100 all stats and 6k mitigation and 25k to all resists. The weight will be 200 and it will be glorious. My pet will cast me to melee with my "Wand O' Doom" that I will duel wield with my "Dagger O' Pokin'". This will truely balance out my class. I will finally be able to solo everything...while at work...and afk. :smileymad: Edit: I also want the return of my lost jewelry mitigation. I want my earring to once again have 50mit. Seriously, it's my [Removed for Content]' ear!!!!:smileytongue: Message Edited by Gastrocnemius on 11-07-2006 02:14 PM __________________

11-08-2006, 04:34 AM	#17
pantswearer Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 40	DobyMT wrote: swordfel wrote: its not just conjy pets, its EVERYBODY. everyone is being nerfed, every single class, and every single mob as well (except a few who the devs want to make more difficult than they are currently). it is not a nerf, its a scale back. read up on this stuff before jumping to conclusions. I'm going to assume that you are just ignorant and not an idiot, therefore, I'll leave your post basically alone. Its a nerf. assuming 50% of ourdmg comes from pets, and 50% from us....and say every gets an across theboard 10% reduction. That means our pets are getting 10%, and we are getting 10%, resulting in a 20% reduction for Summoners...and a what??? 10% reduction for everyone else. Next time YOU should read up. Point is, at the moment on Beta, our pets are at a 25-30% reduction, doing the math. Throw the Conjurors a little bit more, and viola, looking at almost a 50% reduction. Added to the fact that we are getting wierd buff type AAs and whatnot, and well, we can form our opinions. However, everyone is getting adjusted, Summoners getting the party end of the jealousy stick. uh...no. That's not how math works. Here's an example. Let's say we do 100 damage, and our pet does 100 damage, for a total of 200 damage. Now, if we are each reduced by 10% to 90 damage, that is a total of 180 damage. The difference between the original total of 200 damage and the new total of 180 damage is 20 damage. A reduction of 20 damage from 200 happens to be 10%.

11-08-2006, 04:37 AM	#18
pantswearer Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 40	DobyMT wrote: Oh my God, I asumed that this would be easy to understand. Ok we have a Conjuror and his pet. Each does 100% damage, but that is only half of the entire dmg encounter. See? 10% of the pet's damage is a 10% reduction. 10% of the Conjurors damage is a 10% reduction. Therefore, easily added to 20%. Just because our pets and us are different, it doesn't mean that we should BOTH get nerfed. However, what you proposed would be nice, I wouldn't mind a 5% to myself and pet. Hope you read this developers. Again, plug in some actual values. No matter what numbers you use, the math does not work out the way you state it does. oh, and before you ask: yes, I AM a total math geek.

11-08-2006, 05:34 AM	#19
Fayline Fyrecat Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Humboldt County, CA Posts: 175	Trying to quantify the nerfage based on numbers is not an accurate way to determine how our pets (or rather class in general) is going to be affected because there is no data on how the mobs are being adjusted for comparison. The only accurate way to see how the change affects us is to fight mob X on live, then fight the same mob on beta and compare results. So far, this thread is all speculation and chicken-little syndrome IMO. I can't say I'll be happy with the changes and what's been said so far isn't encouraging, but I think too many people are freaking out about numbers that don't provide an accurate assesment of how our class is affected. __________________

11-08-2006, 05:43 AM	#20
Deila Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 443	Regardless of how math is juggled around, in practice on Test (70 Necromancer), my pet isn't doing as well as he was before. Running the standard round of solo writs (handlers, basilisks, etc.), fights are taking longer, my pet is hitting the mobs for less relative damage, is getting hit more, and is having a harder time holding aggro. The change isn't huge, but it's certainly noticable. With so many changes to character, pet and mob health, resists, etc., I think it's dangerous to compare fixed numbers. Example - if I did 1000 damage before and 800 now, but mob health was also proportionately dropped, it all ends up the same - broken down, if I do the same percentage of mob health in damage in the same amount of time, it all balances. But that's not what I'm seeing in practice on Test - I'm seeing what I described above. Still playable, I can still do writs, but my pet is suffering from these changes. Again. That's just one area though - I haven't been able to raid at all since the combat changes went in, nor do much in the way of grouping/heroic instance content to get a feel for my overall effectiveness in those scenarios. I do suspect that it is reduced over where it was before - again, comparitively speaking. Still too early to tell if it's a significant amount of 'nerf', or how the reductions compare out with other class' nerfs. Summoners certainly aren't the only ones looking at changes for the worse in combat. __________________

11-08-2006, 06:29 AM	#21
kenji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 718	i wish i can equip my pet back to par like players if everyone take the same "nerf" but the fact is no, even u got 20k resist on summoner, the pet will still stay at 500 resist.

11-08-2006, 03:38 PM	#22
christmascracker Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Plymouth, Devon. UK Posts: 185	Lockeye replied to these concerns on the Conjuror forum http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=29&message.id=17005#M17005

11-08-2006, 06:46 PM	#23
steelbadger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 816	Lockeye wrote: Stats on pets are restored in an upcoming beta update. They even get minor skill enhancements that they didn't have as well. ZZZOMG!!1!1!one!NERFZ EM!!:smileywink:No need to worry then chaps.