Reduce Root Usage

[Lilj]

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Ebarel wrote:

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Liljna wrote:

If you had to use oil or washes in the old system, you couldn't craft either if you were out of roots. Roots were also used excessively in the old days because they were used in oils/washes. So for many professions, we couldn't xp in the old system either without roots.

I'm not saying the amount of roots is ok, but there is no need to put out very imprecise information (the no roots=slow xp). You are probably ruining your own point by doing it, because your credibility takes damage.

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Yes.  "IF YOU HAD to use oil or washes"  but the point you didnt seem to understand is: YOU DIDNT HAVE TO use oil or washes and COULD do at least something (as i posted).

Fact: Pre-LU you COULD level (slowly) i.e. as a tailor or weaponsmith making tempers (on soft ores) resins (on wood) or on interims (there were some which didnt use oil or washes! As i posted, slow xp, but at least something. You could even produce vendor-trash making stuff with the crossoverskills and make a little bit of profit selling to vendor and using 0 of the "hard-to-get-raws" and save those for the products you wanted to make. Now all non-rare product i make as a tailor (except bags) are vendortrash, with 0 profit (or a loss if your are a prov), with all the precious roots/ore wasted

 

Fact: Post-LU as all recipes for a tailor or armorer use either hard ore or roots (most use both for armorers and bags for tailors)

NO ROOT = no crafting = NO XP (just tell me 1 thing you can craft now as a tailor without roots)

 

and even for recipes that needed washes (1 wash/oil, where 4 washes came from 1 root) i.e. for a bag you needed

Pre-LU: 2 wash for pelt to leather, 1 oil for hide plate = 3/4 root  and only 1 hard ore for the buckle, the tempers could be made from soft ore

Post-LU: i.e.  horned leather backpack (i know T7 wasnt changed, just for the max numbers - lower tiers need less raws, just as an example) 5 pelt, 4 roots, 2 hard ore

 

 

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Hmm, I did get your point. That pre-lu you could in fact lvl up on something you didn't use. I just see it as EXTREMELY silly to level up on things I shouldn't use, so I never did it, and I never considered it (it would be faster to go out and harvest what I needed and then use it to make something worthwhile).

But yes, I guess you are right. Anyone with the apothecary books could make some kind of wort to get xp, even if they didn't need it. I just find this such an extreme and theorical situation, that I'm tempted to call your argument bogus

Edit: I deleted some angry stuff I wrote, I'm regretting saying it even if I meant it. No need to get the flames going.

 

Message Edited by Liljna on 07-22-2006 11:38 AM

Message Edited by Liljna on 07-22-2006 11:41 AM

[Lilj]

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Maroger wrote:

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Sadaro wrote:
The problem is not any one class's use of roots, the problem is *every* class uses roots, and most classes use roots in moderate to large quantities.

This has 2 unfortunate side effects.  First, anyone who harvests just what the need includes root nodes on the list.  Selective harvesting leads to zones filled with bushes (since only provisioners harvest bushes).  Second, anyone who harvests everything they see keeps what they need and sells the rest. 

In either case, very few roots get put on the market.

I craft with a tailor, alchemist, provisioner, and sage.  Looking at some typical recipes:
- Tailor uses either (3 pelts/3 roots/1 wood - leather armor) or (6 roots/1 pelt - cloth armor)
- Alchemist uses (1 gem/2 loam/3 roots) for spells
- Sage uses (1 gem/3 wood/3 roots) for spells
- Provisioner uses (3-5 food items/1-2 roots) for recipes.

Furthermore, when the sage/alchemist go harvesting, they can trade what they don't use (hard metal, in particular) for what they can use (loam/gems/soft metals).  For 3 of the 4 classes listed above, the number of roots available determines how many recipes can be completed.

Can anyone detail root usage for some of the other classes?

Sadaram

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My armorer doing T4 used 2 roots a recipe -- that is obscene. Why does an armorer needs roots!!

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The armorer has always used roots. In fact the armorer uses about the same about today as he did before the LU. Before he didn't use roots in plate recipes, but he used lots in chain. Now he uses roots in both types, but he uses LESS roots in the chain today, than he did pre-lu.

Hmm, I'm not sure if there is any point in using logic when we talk about what raws are used for what. The balance for the game outweights the logic, and I have a feeling I prefer the balance instead of the logic. But else you are probably right, a smith in the real world probably don't use any roots

 

[Maroger]

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Liljna wrote:

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Maroger wrote:

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Sadaro wrote:
The problem is not any one class's use of roots, the problem is *every* class uses roots, and most classes use roots in moderate to large quantities.

This has 2 unfortunate side effects.  First, anyone who harvests just what the need includes root nodes on the list.  Selective harvesting leads to zones filled with bushes (since only provisioners harvest bushes).  Second, anyone who harvests everything they see keeps what they need and sells the rest. 

In either case, very few roots get put on the market.

I craft with a tailor, alchemist, provisioner, and sage.  Looking at some typical recipes:
- Tailor uses either (3 pelts/3 roots/1 wood - leather armor) or (6 roots/1 pelt - cloth armor)
- Alchemist uses (1 gem/2 loam/3 roots) for spells
- Sage uses (1 gem/3 wood/3 roots) for spells
- Provisioner uses (3-5 food items/1-2 roots) for recipes.

Furthermore, when the sage/alchemist go harvesting, they can trade what they don't use (hard metal, in particular) for what they can use (loam/gems/soft metals).  For 3 of the 4 classes listed above, the number of roots available determines how many recipes can be completed.

Can anyone detail root usage for some of the other classes?

Sadaram

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My armorer doing T4 used 2 roots a recipe -- that is obscene. Why does an armorer needs roots!!

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The armorer has always used roots. In fact the armorer uses about the same about today as he did before the LU. Before he didn't use roots in plate recipes, but he used lots in chain. Now he uses roots in both types, but he uses LESS roots in the chain today, than he did pre-lu.

Hmm, I'm not sure if there is any point in using logic when we talk about what raws are used for what. The balance for the game outweights the logic, and I have a feeling I prefer the balance instead of the logic. But else you are probably right, a smith in the real world probably don't use any roots

 

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My SK wears plate so I always did the plate recipes and when I did the TS writs I would take the one for plate -- so I never used roots. Was shocked to find them in the plate recipes.

In chainmail you could often substitue wood for some of the stuff to make the pattern.

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

Maroger wrote:In chainmail you could often substitue wood for some of the stuff to make the pattern.

You used one wood and one resin (for the paper for the pattern) per chainmail piece, where you could use roots instead, so on a full set, you could "save" nine roots by using wood for the resins and paper. (I say "save" because I see using wood as the default - you could spend nine roots to save the wood, but why would one do that?) That still left 33 roots for a chainmail set (vs. 21 now).Actually, the number of roots you could use for a set of chain (42) is exactly double the number you use now for chain and for plate, so you could say they have been evened out across recipies I'm a dirge and armorer, and I used to make mostly chain armors (primarily because there was less competition on the broker because other armorers preferred to make plate, while there are more classes using chain)./RS

[Maroger]

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Ronin SpoilSpot wrote:

Maroger wrote:
In chainmail you could often substitue wood for some of the stuff to make the pattern.

You used one wood and one resin (for the paper for the pattern) per chainmail piece, where you could use roots instead, so on a full set, you could "save" nine roots by using wood for the resins and paper. (I say "save" because I see using wood as the default - you could spend nine roots to save the wood, but why would one do that?)
That still left 33 roots for a chainmail set (vs. 21 now).

Actually, the number of roots you could use for a set of chain (42) is exactly double the number you use now for chain and for plate, so you could say they have been evened out across recipies


I'm a dirge and armorer, and I used to make mostly chain armors (primarily because there was less competition on the broker because other armorers preferred to make plate, while there are more classes using chain).

/RS

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I primarily crafted for my toons - but with the nerf to stats -- it is no longer worthwhile. Now I craft to level and without TS writs it is a chore. I really miss the separate components and the WORTS -- it certainly made making armor less tedious when you get so few recipes per level.

I leveled my sage to 39 in about 1 hours -- it took 2+ hours to level my armorer to 35.

[Lilj]

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Maroger wrote:

II leveled my sage to 39 in about 1 hours -- it took 2+ hours to level my armorer to 35.

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Was that from lvl 1? Because that's darned impressive and fast especially because you didn't have any vitality. Most impressive.

 

[Ronin SpoilSpot]

While an armorer might have fewer recipies now, without the cross-class recipies, the addition of up to 41 more armor recipies per tier, spread out in levels instead of clumped at x0, will probably give more discovery xp in the long run. I don't have a plate tank, so I haven't been able to check out the new tank plate armors. I can see that the priest-armors (Plate and Devout) do sell. Chain armors have, arguably, better stats now than before. They just have lower mitigation. And with four suits to make from, there's something for everybody.At first I also thought the cross-class recipies helped break monotony while grinding, but they also meant that it was absolutely horrible to make anything from earlier tiers where you don't get XP, because all that extra work was really for nothing. And even if it wasn't gray, it's not that level x0 recipies give that much xp anyway. It's not something I would like to do the main grinding on, even if I could avoid using roots./RS - Armorer 62 and never did a tradeskill writ.

[Madmoon]

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Liljna wrote:

The armorer has always used roots. In fact the armorer uses about the same about today as he did before the LU. Before he didn't use roots in plate recipes, but he used lots in chain. Now he uses roots in both types, but he uses LESS roots in the chain today, than he did pre-lu.

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It's not whether this class or that class uses more roots or less... root consumption is way out of line.  By any metric you want to use.. number of roots required to get through a Tier, number of times you are required to harvest, quantity of roots to move through a crafting level, availability of roots on the broker, price of roots on the broker... macro or micro, the roots requirement is w-a-a-a-a-y out of whack.  Anyone who feels otherwise, please, let us know - in detail - where you get your roots, so we can all bask in your brilliance, worship you as you deserve, and join you in the harmony of root surplus.  Until then, the machine's broke, and no amount of quarters is going to fix it.

[ximo]

I agree to some extent that roots might have been seen as quick fix, but its the Raw Meat as the main ingredient in some provisioner drinks that worries me! hehe

Message Edited by ximo on 07-25-2006 06:02 PM

[Oogiboogifroo]

Someone has to tell me the secret to harvesting roots in T6, I can go out harvesting for 2 hours and get 200 sandalwood, 200 indium, 200 beryllium and in that same time on average get 50 roots. Is there some secret place in Sinking Sands or Pillar of Flames that I am missing?

[Rast]

I normally harvest just off of the docks there.  There are nodes on each side, though the one side you will have to fight to get them (45 to 46^ mobs).  But I tend to get more food and wood than roots.

[HazlenutElf]

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Madmoon wrote:

 

It's not whether this class or that class uses more roots or less... root consumption is way out of line.  By any metric you want to use.. number of roots required to get through a Tier, number of times you are required to harvest, quantity of roots to move through a crafting level, availability of roots on the broker, price of roots on the broker... macro or micro, the roots requirement is w-a-a-a-a-y out of whack.  Anyone who feels otherwise, please, let us know - in detail - where you get your roots, so we can all bask in your brilliance, worship you as you deserve, and join you in the harmony of root surplus.  Until then, the machine's broke, and no amount of quarters is going to fix it.

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Agreed!  There a multiple threads on this and on the overuse of ore issue, would be nice to get some kind of official respons on if this is getting looked into, or if they want it this way for some reason.

[grymmstone]

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Aljola wrote:

Let me support the usage of roots in food.  Consider ginger, onions, and the various other flavorful roots used in cooking in real life.  Just because a raw in your inventory says roots, it doesn't mean that it is woody and useless.  Roots have a wonderful flavor in food and, as an added bonus, contain oils, resins, and fibers that can be used in multiple crafts!  We should rejoice rather than complain.

What a joy there is in cooking!!!

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Okay, Fine fine roots for flavor, but (gulp) it takes more roots than any other raw to get through a tier as a provisioner. (WAY MORE) and yeah I will give in on them being easy to gather, well at least until I started my heavy tier 5 harvesting, root nodes are being cherry picked by the bushel. So I harvest all shrubs in a region get a root node to pop only to lose the footrace for it, to some guy on a (ferrari) carpet. :o Oh well, cie la vie.

[Magic]

Ohhh!  I now understand what you meant.  Dang!  That's a bummer!

In the lower tiers, where I am now, the root nodes are uncontested so I haven't experienced your problem.

Maybe you'll get lucky and find roots for your tier on the broker for a fair price.

I wonder if we can get more nodes scattered in the zones?  Remember the starter island?  The nodes there were always of the same types.  You could hang out in the mining area, for example, and be sure to see only mining nodes spawn there.  If they could do something like that every zone, I wonder if that would help the problem that you're having?

[Maroger]

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Liljna wrote:

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Maroger wrote:

II leveled my sage to 39 in about 1 hours -- it took 2+ hours to level my armorer to 35.

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Was that from lvl 1? Because that's darned impressive and fast especially because you didn't have any vitality. Most impressive.

 

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No that was the sage going from level 38 to 39 and the armorer from 34 to 35 -- gives you an idea how much you get penalized if you don't have a lot of new recipes each level. Not many new recipes = grind!!

[neofit]

There is another problem that adds to the T6 roots rarity, haven't seen it mentioned here. Up to to T5 included, bushes have a chance of spawning a root replacement harvest, like wormwood or corn for T5. During all of my levelling through T5 I never had to use a single T5 ashen root with my provisioner. Now this 'root replacement' harvests disappear in T6. My provisioner is using all the roots I manage to harvest. My carpenter is almost at T6, I have a whole box of sandalwood ready for him, half a box of Indium, but not a single available succulent root. So, between my two crafters, I may have used the T6 equivalent of wormwood for a full T6 for my provisioner if it were available and then use a full T6 worth of succulent roots with my carpenter. Instead I am using twice a T6 worth of roots, effectively removing succulent roots for a whole T6 from other people. Not to mention the extra boring time it will take me to harvest one single resource. I did plan, at one time, these two crafters so that they don't use each other's harvests, and so I can supply them both within the same harvesting session. Worked OK 'till T6.

[Lakaah]

I agree with the others saying that the roots are a big problem. Tier 3 roots are about 12 silver and up on my server at the broker, which is way too much to spend for a new player like myself whose tradeskill is about equal to his adventure level. I see people on horseback and flying carpets zooming around the zone collecting nothing but roots and maybe ores. This, of course, winds up leaving the person who is trying to harvest for his own use, out of luck, as the landscape is left littered with many shrubs, and some wood and dens. Very rarely can I find roots without first clearing an area completely and letting the nodes respawn. On a side note, I think it would be a good change to put some sort of valuable rare on the shrubbery nodes. People ignore these nodes completely, and as a result, they dominate the landscape.

[Kine]

I dont know what the root harvesting is like in lower tiers since I havent harvested below T7 in a long while, but in T7, roots are plentiful. There are several spots with high concentrations of roots that only repop as roots. Even with a couple other people harvesting in the same area I can get hundreds of roots in an hour. So I hope they fix lower tiers for any of you having problems, but know that it is much better T7.

[Magic]

In one of the lower tiers, the bushes, roots, and trees can drop a glowing flower.  I hope that this continues into the higher tiers. 

If there are areas that spawn mostly roots, I'd like to know where they for each tier.  But that might be a trade secret.  :smileywink:

[lilmohi]

I think it is pretty clear that roots are way over used in recipes, and soft metals are way under used across the board.  Even as a jeweler i still blow through roots faster than soft metals.  I don't think they need to make sweeping changes but armorers could from a roleplay perspective use soft metal for gilding.  Weaponsmiths could use gems for pomels etc.  Even tailors could use a few glittery items.  If you across the board for just those three classes you replaced one of the root requirements with a soft metal/gem requirement in the recipe, you would make a significant change on the demand for these products.  That might drive the price of soft metals up to a whopping 10cp and might even drop the price of roots by a third.

 

Btw i think they should make it so the bushes have a chance of dropping a random rare from one of the other nodes.  That way people will have a reason to clear them out and will let other nodes spawn more.

[Wrapye]

I just finished leveling a tailor from level 42 shortly after LU24 hit to level 70 a couple days ago.T6 was virtual root hell, needing so many to create items.  T6 cloth armor uses 8-10 roots per recipe.T7 cloth robes and the new dresses/suits use 11 roots each, in addition to a pelt and a wood.  Roots are easier to get in T7 than T6, but pelts are often highly contested given all the classes that use them.  T7 leather armor is something like 6 pelts and 5 roots.For T6 I would run around PoF and harvest with my 70 coercer, as everything was grey to me and far fewer people were competing for the harvests.  In SS I had started harvesting bushes just to clear them for other nodes to spawn.  My provisioner has lots of artichokes on hand to make into... well, some rather unappetizing items.  Those Maj Dul residents really like dirt (loam) in their drinks...

[neofit]

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sacremon wrote:Those Maj Dul residents really like dirt (loam) in their drinks...

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I wish it were loam, everyone has a few reserves of this stuff. IMHO too many drinks use roots, as it is right now I have a whole level of drinks/foods that all use roots. They might replace the root by a loam for instance, or, as I said in an earlier post, make T6 bushes spawn a replacement for the root as Wormwood and Corn were in T5. This would all reduce requirements on roots.And yes, as you rightly say, the demand on soft metals is low. My carpenter had a few recipes that used them a couple of tiers ago IIRC, since then - nothing, only the regular wood/metal/roots in the same proportion. A few non-root recipes each level would reduce the level. I find it hard to believe that a table uses for instance 3 wood/2 metal/2 roots, and then a painting uses 2 wood/2 metal/3 roots Sometimes I hate the guy who invented the copy/paste feature