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10-04-2005, 02:54 PM
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#61 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 15
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"There is one major issue that is being completely missed in this thread! T5 Raid mobs are not yet re-tuned to the new system, they were designed to be fought by people 45-50 and once they have been re-tuned they will again be designed to be fought by those same people. Once this has happened and these raids are again suitable for the target levels then they will be providing loot that is relevant for those who are intended to be undertaking them."
This is what actually sucks atm, our guild has only just been able to get into the situation where we can attempt these old world mobs due to numbers and now even with raids of ppl lvl 50 -55 we cant do them and even if we could the loot would be a total waste of time as solo quest rewards in DoF are much better. From a personal point of view I would like them to upgrade items a little as well as fix the mobs , so that guilds such as ourselves can attempt these mobs and gain some kind of reward from doing so. By the time they do fix it , no doubt we will all be well past lvl 55 and so raiding these mobs becomes pretty pointless. Just seems to me that the "middle of the road" guilds are stuck in no mans land where they cant kill the expansion raid mobs and cant go back to kill the old world mobs Scamp Guild Leader Atra Mors |
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10-04-2005, 04:11 PM
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#62 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 93
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Actually, this is a bit inaccurate. From Moogards Post he says the following things (these are exact quotes): And This means that Old World Epic mobs are supposed to be killed by 50 +/- 2 levels, or 48-52. Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest
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Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest |
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10-04-2005, 06:20 PM
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#63 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 72
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So let me get this straight, Darathar (5 Hmmm... EDIT: LOL I still read it wrong Message Edited by Cuva on 10-04-2005 07:22 AM
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Deydra, Paladin of Cadre Starlyn Clickingheels, the gnome Britney Spears Toxxulia |
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10-04-2005, 06:48 PM
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#64 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 37
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That was the point of my original post. There is no incentive to kill these mobs if the gear is level 40. There is obviously an error or oversight on the part of the devs and I wanted the subject vocalized for them to see. Now it has been and I'm sure the devs will either change the level of the gear or they truly intended for all the old world raids to be a waste of time now. /shrug
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10-04-2005, 07:06 PM
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#65 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: La Porte, Indiana
Posts: 238
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Sux for tanks, but who cares for mages and priests. Killed that x4 tree in LT yesterday (with a tank in full tier 5 Fabled beat that HAHAH), and it droped a 12int 70power mage hat.... wow like I wana drop 7int to get 20 power...right. I agree that armor we raided for all these months shouldnt be totally useless for raiding tier 6, but guess what it is, Now for all the tanks out there et some cobalt and sell that fabled.
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10-04-2005, 08:04 PM
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#66 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 186
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Actually no it doesn't, it means that a level 54-56 mob should be being hunted by players who are level 50ish (yellow to low orange as per the first quote) so a level 50 mob can and should be hunted by 44-49 players. The second quote was not about what level we should be fighting these encounters from the perspective of gaining loot etc, it was stating then when gathering information for feedback it is best done while =/- 2 levels of the mobs in question.
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10-04-2005, 08:06 PM
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#67 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 224
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Fabled Gear/Master spells weren't designed to be the norm. The fact that some people had full sets of fabled, and every useful spell at Master level could be attribueted to one thing... they had time to obtain these things. Given enough time, anyone can accumulate "the best" that is out there, but once you have these things, what is left to do? Use it to help your friends round out thier sets of stuff... sure but then what? Whether it was a level increase that trivialized older items, or new items that were better than anything before, this kind of thing not only was bound to happen, it needs to happen for ongoing content. Absolutely it's frustrating for people who feel they've worked hard for 6 months obtaining "the best" gear, only to see that gear trivialized by something newer and better, but I'm not sure why it's a surprise. Things like this happen every day. Remember when LP's were replaced by cassettes? Or how about your cassette collection trivialized by CD? For a persistant world to feel realistic and immersive, we have to have a sense of growth and innovation in the game. Level hikes and new discoveries are one way to do this. So while sure, you can feel frustrated that everything you have worked to collect isn't "top notch" or "the best" anymore, as many have pointed out, that T5 fabled stuff and those masters will equip you better than others who use legendary stuff to collect the next "best stuff". Personally, I don't think Legendary T6 stuff is good enough. If you compare the stats of T4 fabled items to T5 legendary, there is a substantial difference. This isn't the case between T5 fabled and T6 legendary. Frankly given that that is the case, I think the Dev's answered many people's concerns about their hard-earned gear being "trivialized". While it's not the best in the game anymore... it's far from the worst. Edit: Typo Message Edited by Babayaaga on 10-04-2005 09:07 AM
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Babayaaga (81 Fury) Inaera (90 Berserker) Porta (87 Monk) Noir (90 Templar) Babs (81 Illusionist) Piia (90 Mystic) |
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10-04-2005, 09:11 PM
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#68 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 37
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I still think that T6 Fabled gear should be so much better than T5 that it's a no brainer that'd you'd want to replace your T5.....If it's not and the only reason to get rid of your T5 is greying out, then the dev's have dropped the ball completely. I don't believe this is their intention and still believe the level 40 base is an error or oversight.
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10-04-2005, 09:45 PM
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#69 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 518
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The change they made in beta made the gear loose the color con. The gear was still good until they decided to change it yet again and make it grey to everyone at 55+.We killed 55+ level mobs to get this gear and for it to be level 40 gear is just ridiculous. It should be at least 46 level gear as that is about the minimum level it took to go after this stuff. Actually, it should be level 49 gear as that is the real minimum for a lot of the stuff.Raising the level of t5 fabled to match the levels required to kill the mobs and the levels of the mobs that it dropped off is not ridiculous at all. It's the way it should be. Stuff that is dropping off t6 mobs (50 - 60) are 55+ for good fabled. That will last until 70+. T5 fabled dropping off 55+ mobs should be 45+.As has been said, what's the point of people coming up to even kill old world mobs that are really not killable until 49+, when the awesome gear they drop will grey out in 5 levels?
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10-04-2005, 10:32 PM
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#70 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 215
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You keep referencing killing level 55+ mobs for your fabled, but that was before the revamp, they should have been closer to level 50 mobs, so since they were really equivalent to level 50 post revamp, your gear is 40+. They are going through and readjusting the levels of the mobs, now if they adjust one and leave them at 55, then I think they should drop better gear, but just remember that you killed them before the revamp and they weren't the same level 55 as they are after the revamp. And why all the hatred for the crafters, they aren't the problem, and don't even try to tell me that you didn't get any loot other than the armor on your back from the 10 months of raiding. You are just wanting to get an advantage on anyone that is approaching your level now. Guess what, you do have that advantage right now. But in 5 levels you won't and shouldn't have the advantage unless you get better gear in that time.
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Drayden 70 Berserker/ 44+Tailor The Brethren Kithicor Server |
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10-04-2005, 10:59 PM
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#71 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 93
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How much simpler can it be said than that? All the old world mobs are intended for level 50 players... not lvl 46, or 47, but 50. What happens at 50? You can now take down Epic mobs for Fabled gear OR get rare crafted gear which is better. The current system leaves out any place for Fabled gear except to sell to people that are lvl 40-43. I'm tired wasting my effort to try and get people to understand that the Developers have designed the system that instantly makes Fabled gear outclassed when it's obtainable. Instead of bickering over whether or not you agree I challenge you to come up with a solution that makes raiding for Fabled gear feasible, obtainable and worth it's risk vs reward. Keep in mind that Moorgard has stated that Old World Epic mobs are intended to be killed by lvl 50s. Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest
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Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest |
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10-05-2005, 12:47 AM
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#72 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 518
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Exactly!They are still geared towards level 50 players. Why should level 50 players go raid stuff for level 40 gear, only to become grey in 5 levels. You will NOT see level 40 players out there killing this stuff for level 40 gear. DoF gear is of appropriate level. We are killing 60-65+ mobs for 55+ gear. If the old world followed the same pattern, then we would be killing 52-57 mobs for at LEAST 45+ gear. |
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10-05-2005, 01:30 AM
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#73 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 186
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Ok, both of you need a lesson in reading. Moorgard said that raids which were aimed at level 50 players still are, and thus by logical extrapolation those aimed at 45-50 players still are etc. He did not say that ALL old world raids are, or ever were, intended for level 50 players only. There are some that were aimed at level 50s only, but there were plenty that were aimed at anyone in T5.
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10-05-2005, 01:46 AM
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#74 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 518
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The mobs that dropped the best fabled gear in the game are still 49-50. Kra'thux, Vazgok, Venekor, Vox, etc. These are high end t5 mobs levels 55+ that drops the best gear around, till the expansion and it's only level 40 stuff. It should be level 46+ (or 49+) at least.Simple fact is, t5 fabled should provide benefit to doing t6 raid level mobs until you can regear your raids with t6 fabled. T5 fabled should carry you through level 60. Of course you will want to replace the gear with t6 fabled though as t6 fabled has better mitigation, allowing oyu to take the mobs a little easier.T5 crafted should be replaced with t6 crafted.
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10-05-2005, 01:51 AM
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#75 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 93
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You sir, are the one that is making a very bad assumption. I have in fact read very carefully what Moorgard posted. Therefore, do not tell me that I need lessons in reading. As it's obvious you did not read the link I posted, or what Moorgard said, here are more quotes by him. As you can see by the highlighted text that all old world epics will con yellow to low orange for level 50 players. And that, people in their low to mid 40's are not going to have success against them. I'm sure we are all familiar with the scaling differences between a yellow and an orange mob. My dps drops from roughly 175 to 25 on an orange mob (I've parsed this many times). There is absolutely no way a lvl 45 is going to be the least bit effective against an epic mob that is over 50. And, at a low con orange that means that many epic mobs will be lvl 55-56 to a lvl 50 player. Therefore, fabled items need reworking. Thank you, have a nice day... and don't accuse me of incompetence again. Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest
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Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest |
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10-05-2005, 01:52 AM
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#76 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,332
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You still haven't shown anything saying that grey gear = 0 stats/mitigation. Thus, grey gear DOES NOT MATTER. You can still wear it, you can still use it, MOVE ON.
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10-05-2005, 02:32 AM
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#77 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 186
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No I am afraid that this does not say anything of the sort, no where in that does Moorgard say all old world raids are for level 50 players.
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10-05-2005, 03:39 AM
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#78 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 684
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Four pages of this debate and not one person understanding why most of the old T5 fable was set at L40. Or if they do know they sure haven't posted about it. T5 fable is set at 40 (majority) - 43 (decent amount) requirements for Your Benefit. Did everyone here forget already that before the revamp ALL items scaled, i.e. Improved, as you leveled. These items were created at these low level requirements so that You would get the max benefits from them at L50. All T5 fable items were created under a different system then what we have now. T6 legendary gear gives better mitigation because items no longer Scale. You now receive the max mitagtion you used to have to wait tell L60 at L50. Should SOE go back and adjust all the old fable items do to the basic change in how they all work ? maybe. Will that happen ? not a chance. There are just to many items to make that reasonable. |
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10-05-2005, 06:31 AM
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#79 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 76
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Just thought I would repost this as a lot of people in this thread seem to have missed it and it is quite important to this topic.
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10-05-2005, 06:39 AM
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#80 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 95
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Yes, the way armor stats works is changed, specifically in the mitigation anyhow... since the other stats were always in full affect. And although it would be nice to see a dev say definitively YES grey armor still gives mitigation; NO grey armor gives no mitigation; OR grey armor gives a scaled down mitigation... but in the mean time we have to believe that we don't want to wear it if its grey unless its jewelry which has no mitigation anymore. The primary arguements are valid... you have to be close to the end of a tier to beat the raid mobs that drop the gear for that tier... and the fabled for that tier should be better than *most* of the gear in the next tier. I suggest these constructive ideas... keeping with the new 15 levels of conning white system: 1) Shift the minimum level for fabled up, make T2 fabled require level 14 (good until 29). Make T3 require level 24, T4 require level 34 and T5 require level 44. What this will do is keep the fabled gear competative for the majority of the people who go and earn it until they are actually able to kill the mobs that have the next rank of fabled gear. A level 49 person in a mix of T4 fabled and T5 rare armor should have no problem tanking a level 52 to 55 raid mob with a good guild behind them. This also means that the T5 fabled will be useful for a while... but by the time you hit level 60 you better have finally found some new fabled, or some rares, which is completely reasonable. This way fabled is useful to the people who can aquire it, and is useful in helping them aquire the next level of fabled gear. 2) Shift weapon requirements for hitting mobs. A T4 fabled weapon should be able to hit the same creatures as a T5 rare and maybe even a T6 treasured. Under this system a T5 weapon can hit anything that a T6 rare weapon can (and eventually a T7 treasured.)... but you can have the very toughest stuff in DoF require T6 fabled thus forcing progressive raiding, which keeps people interested because there is a purpose.
These 2 changes would allow all the lower tier raid zones/mobs to be more than just cash cows for people/guilds who want to farm them. There is no reason to make T5 raid mobs (and all the ones below them) into worthless content. People worked hard to design these zones and make them cool/beautiful/exciting/etc. But that is what will happen if no one can use the stuff 3 or 4 levels after they get it. Almost no one will raid T5 mobs anymore otherwise. Cobalt etc weapons do more damage than T5 fabled, the armor has just as much mitigation and the stats are as good as all but the very best T5 fabled, and the rares are MUCH easier to get... if I am a level 50 (which I am) there is no way I am going to slave away week after week raiding T5 mobs as I level up into the 50s when I can spend a few days harvesting, get some cobalt, and have armor and weapons that will actually work when I pass level 55 and be as good or better than the T5 fabled. (and BTW, I fully support rares being less rare, it helps people a lot, however I do not think a person in full T5 fabled should be forced to harvest for a 30-50 hours to get all new T6 legendary before they can fight any new epic mobs.) ***** OR ***** Make the epic mobs drop gear based on their level! When we go into a zone like splitpaw that scales, and some of the mobs are below 50 (T5) and some are over 50 (T6) they drop different loot... according to their proper tier. SO make any raid mob over level 50 drop gear that is T6... requires level 50 to wear. Make any epic mob over level 60 drop T7 gear... ie required level 60 to wear... no one but the 60s (or soon to be 60s) are going to kill these things anyhow! To do this would be easy... no need to change any existing gear really... just adjust what loot tables mobs work off for future drops... so raid guilds could got back and fight some of the level 55/56 epic mobs they are familiar with to get new fabled gear to help them along the way towards killing the 60+ raid mobs... and this keeps old epic encounters useful/worth fighting. HOWEVER my first suggestion is much more progressively oriented, and does not require raid guilds to go back to their old raid spots for another 4 months before moving into the DoF raid content, which would bore them since they already killed those mobs a LOT.
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10-05-2005, 06:43 AM
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#81 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 93
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All Old World Epic mobs were designed for lvl 50's, even though some were weaker and could be taken out without having the everyone 50 . I makes absolutely no sense to aim an encounter for lvl 50 and drop loot 10 levels lower (or one tier). Here are a list of most raid mobs that drop fabled loot: Acts of War -- No chance you are finishing this at anything other than 50 Arch-lich Udalan -- Average raid should pretty much be 50 Asphyxia -- 50 or you won't land anything Borxx -- No chance a group of anything other a raid of anything other than 50 can handle WoF Brutal Acts of War -- Even worse that AoW Darathar -- While it is doable by lvl 48's (min imo) it's aim is definetly 50 as its a lvl 58 mob Deception Drakotas: Minimum lvl 49 to kill Element of Vox -- This was aimed at lvl 50 as it was a consequence for doing the Deception quest wrong. Tactics made this super easy Spirits of the Lost -- Aimed at 50's KDal the Deciever -- Aimed at 50's (hardest single instance fight) King Drayek (Icebound) -- Ok, this is a starter raid. You can adjust the *one* fabled item he drops... Ring of Removal (if he drops it) King Drayek (Throne Room) -- Aimed at lvls 49+ as it's the 2nd last part of the Deception quest (After you res vox) King Zalak the Ancient -- Aimed at 50's King Zatan -- Contested, I'd assume he's aimed for 50 but I've never taken him down Niscanth -- -- Need to be 49 to zone in Lord Nagalik -- Definetly aimed for 50 Overlord Oxulius -- You needed a 50 tank here and equipment to keep your mana flowing. Average should be48-50. But it was aimed at 50. Rognog the Angler -- This is the lowest lvl epicx4 mob at lvl 52. Soluseks Fist -- Contested with WoF... 50. Spirit of Vox -- Same as element of Vox... 50 THaen -- The still haven't fixed it. The Krathuk -- Contested with WoF... 50. The Vision of Vox -- Contested with WoF... 50. Tremblar the Behemoth -- Need to be 50 in order to take down the event in time. Trendaloz the Caller -- Need to be 49 to zone in Vanudozalon the Elusive -- Need to be 49 to zone in VazGok The Cursed -- Contested with WoF... 50. Venekor -- Contested with WoF... 50. ***Note: Before someone asks the Fire and Ice drakotas do NOT drop metal chests. Out of all of those raid mobs only two *may* have been aimed at something other than lvl 50. In an interesting note, the Nightblood in EL is lvl 43 and drops T4 loot... but actually always drops a ring that is still great at lvl 50. So please, don't try to skew Moogards words around. It's pretty obvious that 95% of the raids were intented to be for lvl 50s. The loot should thus be based on that fact. As all item drops in the deception quest are lvl 40 fabled, yet you NEED to be 49 just to zone in... I think it's a pretty good indication that fabled loot was missed under the radar. So there you have it... Besides 2-3 raids, all gear (with very slight exceptions) that can be obtained is instantly outclassed by T6 harvested rares. Therefore, this needs to be looked into. Suggestion anyone? Perhaps something other than a rebuttal where someone can suggest something logical? Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest
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Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest |
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10-05-2005, 10:22 AM
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#82 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23
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<<<Gorndax>>> Nice post, agree with everything. Personaly I think the whole con system was a bad idea from the get go. I perfer to decide what gear I am going to wear baised on the stats and effects it may have not some pre-set color code. But considering its here and not likely to just leave there needs to be a better way of doing it. Crafted armor I can see greying out in 15 lvls just because you can in theory obtain the new gear at the beggining on the next tier. But with fabled thats just not the case, it takes longer to get and higher lvls are needed to even try. Personaly I think all fabled loot should either have he lvl required to wear raised to the average lvl needed to take the raids on that drop the loot or the gear needs to no grey out as fast. Setting the lvl to wear the gear baised on lvl to beat the raid isnt practical, basicaly cuase its always gonna change. So that realy only leaves one option, haveing fabled gear have a longer useful time then regular gear and realy it should after all its much harder to obtain. I realy think T5 fabled gear should not grey out until 60+, not because i dont want to upgrade but there is a good chance that most players wont be able to replace all there gear by that point from raiding. Let the stats from T5 versus T6 decide if its time to replace the gear yet or not, not the con of the gear. Im not trying to win anyone over becuase this thred has totaly been jacked by anti raid people, which imho have no voice on the gear from thous of us that do raid. You dont wanna raid fine, go get some crafted gear. But dont screw everyone else over becuase you have hate going on for thous around you with better gear. To add another slightly off topic note to this. I realy think ALL fabled loot should be no drop period. It realy bugs me to see so much of it for sale already on the brokers. One of the local guilds on mistmoore straight up had 10 pages of fabled guardian gear for sale last friday off from one broker and this did not include spells or any other classes other then thous that could wear gaurdian gear. If that wasnt enough, they had just as much stuff for sale on the freeport side. Thats rediculous and totaly trivialises raiding when its all tradable, imho peeps that hate raiding so much sure as hell shouldent be able to buy it off the broker.
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10-05-2005, 12:55 PM
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#83 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 15
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"No I am afraid that this does not say anything of the sort, no where in that does Moorgard say all old world raids are for level 50 players." Well as level 50's cant even do most of these raids at moment ,what level are old world mobs aimed at ?!? |
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10-05-2005, 01:19 PM
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#84 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,332
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They haven't fixed all of the old-world raids yet to match the revamp.
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10-05-2005, 05:42 PM
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#85 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 15
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..But they "Fixed" Darathor by lowering his lvl to 58 ?!? So lvl 50's still have no chance of doing this. Anyone else finding this really frustrating ?
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10-05-2005, 06:07 PM
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#86 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23
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<<<..But they "Fixed" Darathor by lowering his lvl to 58 ?!? So lvl 50's still have no chance of doing this. Anyone else finding this really frustrating ?>>> What I find even more fustrating is that they are not scaleing the old world mobs to be easier then they were prior to combat revamp. They are putting them at a lvl were they are going to be more of a challenge then were before and still have relatively the same lvl needed prior to revamp to kill. So nomatter what the haters say its still comes down to needing to be 50 to kill most the mobs, to get the gear, to have it grey out 5 lvls later.....weres the logic in that? So you have fabled gear that lasts for 5 lvls and crafted gear that will last for 15........somethings wrong here considering SoE has always said Fabled is supposed to be better.
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10-05-2005, 06:28 PM
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#87 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 18
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Alot of people seem to view EQ as work... not fun (it is a game). If the only reason that you raid is so that you are able to say that your equipment is the best, and the main high point isn't being able to come together as a group of people to take down specific targets while getting better equip'd for harder targets, then you have lost the point of the game. Fun and enjoyment. I was in raid guilds in EQ1 for years as a main cleric, I look back now and see that eq2 fits me alot better then raiding 5-10 hours a night, 7 nights a week. I love my T6 rare crafted items, and I only play 3-5 nights a week, and only when I want. Don't try to mess the game up for people who don't play like you think that they should. Alot of us are "having fun playing a game". Anyone calling for the imbuing to be held back, or that t6 rares are too powerfull can just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] now pls k tks. As for raising the level on the t5 fabled gear, who cares? Don't [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] with peoples [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. If those people want their gear to not grey out as fast, if it makes the game more fun for them, if they don't seem to mind the fact they will blow through t6 content with old gear, if they do not feel like they are losing so of the game by not having to gear up for t6, then who are we to say that they shouldn't be able to do what they want. Just don't [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about t6 rare items you [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing idiots. Message Edited by Croff on 10-05-2005 07:29 AM |
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10-05-2005, 07:03 PM
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#88 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 37
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EXCELLENT post and the WHOLE point why T5 Fabled gear should not be set at level 40. That's the point of the post. T6 rare crafted is fine.....It has NOTHING to do with this post. Play how you want.....that's not part of the post either.....
Fabled gear needs to be looked at again and the levels need to be adjusted to go with the mobs that drop them....period.... :smileytongue:
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10-10-2005, 09:27 PM
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#89 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6
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Yes please raise the level. I have played for quite sometime and no fabled drops....
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10-10-2005, 09:53 PM
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#90 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 644
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hehe Sorry I am laughing now
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is supposed to be killed by lvl 56-60 people now, and the loot he drops is lvl 40, which cons grey at lvl 55?