|
|||||||
| Notices |
 |
| Thread Tools |
09-21-2005, 03:52 AM
|
#1 |
|
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2
|
A Bruiser, Monk, Zerker, Paladin, Shadowknight and Guardian all sit down for a big feast. Each one orders something different from the menu because it sounds the most appealing to them. The waiter finally returns with a meal fit for kings and starts to lay them in front of each member. Everybody looks around and notices that they have had more than one course except for the Guardian. The Guardian received one BIG turkey. The Guardian was a little bummed that all he got was a one course meal.....but it was bigger than everybody else's meal so he was happy. The others at the table were happy with their feast because they had variety and knew what they ordered. The waiter looked down at the table and figured that something was not right. To everybody's suprise, the waiter decided to snatch up meals and start rearranging the original orders. The waiter worked furiously dividing up portions onto other plates. When the waiter was done....the Guardian looked down and saw a drumstick. The waiter noticed the discontent on the Guardian's face and went to the kitchen. When the waiter returned, he put a green pea on the Guardian's plate in hopes that the Guardian would be satisfied with his new variety........ and this is where I am today. Sitting in front of my computer looking at this green pea that is supposed to satisfy my hunger. Disclaimer: I speak for myself only and I do not think that the class change was any individual's (class) fault. I am also not crying for the nerf of any other classes. The following is just my opinion and observations based on 10 months of hardcore game play. When I first started EQ2, I rolled over 12 toons with 2 accounts. I like to experience all of the classes, so that when I group with somebody, I know what challenges they face. The fighter class is my favorite class to play. I have a Guardian, Bruiser, Zerker and SK (amongst other classes
 ) My main toon is my level 51 Guardian that is fully fabled with the exception of a few jewelry slots. My Guardian is (was) my favorite to play because I enjoy being the meat shield class.....no fancy stuff....just keep the agro and get beat while my raid starts it tactics. Now that the other classes can tank just as well, if not better, what is the point of being a Guardian? I can hear it now.....some group only person is gonna chime in "Well you have a whole protection line of spells.....maybe you should learn to use them." <----The protection spells are junk. Please don't try to tell me that I can intercept 100% damage for one WHOLE hit and that's going to save the raid :/ I think the intention of the Guardian role now is more of a buff bot/protector for whom ever the main tank is. I have other fighter classes too, so please don't think that I am crying nerf. What I am crying is please diversify the fighter class. Yes....we can all tank almost equally now....YEAHHHH! /puke When I log my bruiser on, I want to do mad single target damage and then FD the agro off when I get agro (For those of you who think that Bruisers should not be DPS, please visit the "DPS or Tank" thread in the Bruiser's section of these forums. When I log my zerker on, I want to do mad AOE damage and peel mobs off of the MT so they can be DPS'd at a safe distance. When I log my SK on, I want to solo or add buffs and wards to my group mates when I team up. There has never been a time that I logged my Guardian on and said, "I'd really like to lose agro today because I have a protection line of spells that will help for 3 hits, then I'll use my taunts that are incapable of peeling once agro is lost." Oh....and yes....I do know how to play my Guardian. I know the taunt/dmg/buff combos. Before the revamp my record was excellent at holding agro and picking up adds. Please don't think that it was nerfable good though....my raid always knew how much hate that I had built and was able to maintain the appropriate DPS. My success is 99% my raid and about 1% me. ......anyways...back to the topic  I just wanted to say that I am very unhappy with the changes. I do think that Guardians should be the #1 tank. Guardians don't get special armor (any heavy wearer can slap on Vanguard), no special shields (Tower can be used by zerks and is not any better than a kite), no FD, no more avoidance, no heals, no wards, no lifetaps, no DPS. I can go on but I think half of you already fell asleep To sum it up, the fighter class has become too much like main tanks. I have different classes to log when I am in the mood for a different style of play. I used to chose from a heavy single target dmg dealer, an aoe dmg dealer, a utility dmg dealer and a raw tank. To be honest, sometimes I'm not in the mood to play my Guardian because I feel like logging on my Bruiser and ripping a mobs head off. Guardians never had anything special except for stackable STA buffs. Now the fighter class can log onto the server and say fighter LFG because the line between subclasses is so blurred that it does not make a difference any more. If somebody was not happy about their class before the combat changes, they could reroll to something more appealing to them. I know plenty of people who rerolled within the fighter class because they made a mistake. Now SOE is trying to compensate for people who don't want to reroll at lvl 50 and have just made everybody able to tank. When you order at a restraunt and don't like what is in front of you, send it back. I don't think it is a good idea for the chef to make everything taste the same because somebody sent a plate back to the kitchen. I thought about posting this in the Guardian forum but I would really like to hear what other people think. I am guessing that most of the Guardians with experience would agree with me so I posted this here. If you agree with me or disagree please post so I can see more points of view other than my own. I am always open for discussion and new ideas. Thx for taking the time to read this. -Agronox
|
|
|
|
09-21-2005, 03:59 AM
|
#2 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 191
|
I 100% completely agree with you, they have ruined the Guardian class.
|
|
|
|
|
09-21-2005, 05:35 AM
|
#3 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 16
|
Amen brother. Gambrellin 50 Guardian Highkeep
|
|
|
|
|
09-21-2005, 05:51 AM
|
#4 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 21
|
All plate tanks need to have their mitigation raised as they just can't absorb the hits right now. With Paladin and Guardian dps nerfed at least allow them to take more damage. SOE needs to make some adjustments as I chose a Paladin to play a Knight not a healer.
|
|
|
|
|
09-21-2005, 06:35 AM
|
#5 |
|
General
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 894
|
wow ; ( whole Page dumped by stupid forum and i even hit Preview post : ( [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that sucks so so bad any how the abreviated version ; ) Changes have only been Live 1 week . "They have NO re-vamp "Excuse" Left as to why classes are Under powered OR have broken or Useless skills" . They should be working Full time on any classes that are Gimped in any way and bringing them up to be Equal in there own way . I hear lvl 35 templars are out healing lvl 50 (Mystics is it) ? obviously wrong but it should be fixed in a matter of a couple days not a few months Lastly Guards have Been Way Way above and beyond all other tanks for any Group or Raid so i would assume they Nerfed you on purpose to give other tanks a chance to MT all groups and Raids i think in 1 month Guardians will be Back to # 1 mt in game for 60% of the content again BUT by that time alot of groups and raids will have a chance to see what other tanks can do and some might like workin with a Bruiser or Pally or Sk for certain raids or Instances . and Highest magical hit in game Post re-vamp is Guardians ? 20,000+ ; ( lol best tank and best Mage hahahaha Seriously i don't want guards to be worst tank in the game i just dont want them to be Far and Away the only Tank also i think you should get a Nice Barrage attack or somekind of heavy damage " IT" should be the Lowest of ALL tanks but you should definetly have a decent heavy hitter for PvP something "1/2 " as strong as a Bruisers Powr hit or Sk harm touch it should be on a 20 minute or 1/2 hour timer but you need atleast 1 Nasty hit : ) you should get a little somethin somethin since you now End Game MT all the time you need to get a little of your Attacks power back Welp good luck
__________________
who's more of a Fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool. . . Account Terminated as of 12-27-08, RMT=Evil |
|
|
|
|
09-21-2005, 09:33 PM
|
#6 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
|
A thoughtful, well written post. However, IMO it boils down to the one sentence above. My monk and my berserker and my paladin all disagree. Thankfully, the development team does as well. |
|
|
|
|
09-22-2005, 07:00 PM
|
#7 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3
|
All of this is Deja-vu from the warrior [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing days of EQ1. I do agree in many respects with your post. I played a warrior in EQ1 troubled days and played a Guardian since Beta in EQ2. The old argument is the simple fact that Guardians give up everything to be the best tank class. We dont want all the little utilities, DPS, and diversity that the other tank classes have. Now, you change and give equal or better tanking ability to the other classes and Guardians are left with nothing to offer. No utility, bottom end DPS, and now a mediocre tank. Whats the point?? Why take a Guardian when others can do the job equally and offer a whole lot more. I think I have learned finally.. after all this time.. I just give up with the pure tank ideology and SoE. ...waiting for Vanguard...
|
|
|
|
|
09-22-2005, 08:46 PM
|
#8 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 18
|
Guardians have been billed since the beginning of EQ2 as THE tank class. I mean come on, look at our abilities, look at the 'special armor' which now everyone gets. The advertising was as the main tank, not the only tank. Yes, other fighter classes could tank before, and do a fine job. Were they as good as guardians? No, course not, why should they be (We are GUARDians after all). But now, they are better. After playing a week with my 50 guardian it has become rather boring. Keeping aggro is a pain in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], virtually any class that tries can pull off me, and I take hits far worse than before. My armor is decent, full ebon with some fabled, but monks sans fabled were taking hits better than me the first few days after patch. All the other fighter classes have other abilities in addition to the base fighter/tank role now, where are ours? You can't count the spells that let us take hits of group-members, those have always sucked, and will always suck. Nor can you count our avoidance buff, now it decreases hate, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kind of use is that? Won't be used on anyone taking a lot of hits, well, except for the people who peel hate off us oh so easily now. Btw, give us our long range pull/snare back, or something similar too it, pulling from far away is such a PITA now and this is such a small thing to fix. Give us a 1 damage long range spell for all I care ; p
|
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 03:14 AM
|
#9 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 127
|
Guardians and only guardians need a mitigation bonus aswell as an upgrade to taunts for group mobs. I am a monk. atm I can tank just fine for most things yelow and below was tanking orange first few days of dof till the nerfs came. I can hold agro extremly well I can dps well. I can avoid hits and block for a plate tank even better. Guardians only have a few weak buffs. They dont have the top hp. They dont have the top mitigation. They dont have the best taunts. If you read the guardian class and thought hmm I think this class will be perfect for doing ANYTHING other than tanking you have to be a little slow in the head. All fighters can tank equaly now all fighters but one have special skills to use which makes them unique. Why isnt a guardian the best tank? Palies you tank just fine and you can heal like a druid when you need to and more so if you count lay hands. lets try and keep this as a BUFF THE GUARDIAN POST not oh I wana be the best tank and best healer and best dps and best everything as my fighter subclass. You all should give up some tanking skill to be your class. Palies get heals SKs wards and dps Brawelers dps and best block spell Zerkers AE dps and still a good tank with good taunts. Guardians have nothing else.
|
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 09:38 AM
|
#10 |
|
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 461
|
MORE paly heals and wards BS. Time and time again..Palys heals and wards conpensate for our lower hit points, mitigation, avoidance, and sometimes even power pool. Guards have us beat in EVERY categoryand by a substantial amount, post DoF. Our heals and wards are intended to counter this, not to give us some sort of extra flavor. Get off your high horse. I agree that ALL plate tanks need a mitigation boosts....but arguing that Guards should once again be the end all tank and that palys should just live with our reduced stats is crass. The ONLY arguements that are valid for guards is that you need more utility and that ALL plate tanks need an evasion or mitigation boost. BTW there's a guard in your forum who posted about how much more damage palys take when tanking..it came out to be over 30% more I believe. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=18631 Want to guess why we have heals now? |
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 01:49 PM
|
#11 |
|
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 21
|
I get interrupted and take a lot more damage then ever. Even my taunts get interrupted, i don't know if that is a bug. As far as pulling, i've got to get a lot closer now, and mobs aggro ranges have increased. We are toted the least head points and the most power, but i have less power now and run out of power in fights more then i ever did and have considerably less HP. We get decent heals, altho those were lowered too, and if they aren't interrupted. But i have to agree, the heals make up the HP differences. I don't think the guardians should be #1 tank, but that all plate class tanks are the best. Give the guard more utility if they are lacking, i really don't know since i don't play one. The guard in my guild does absorb a lot of damage for me when he let's me tank, if he is tanking then i have to be cautious not to draw aggro, but i beleive it is because 90 % of my skills are adept 3 or better and his aren't. We have the same taunt issues too, because if we lose aggro, getting it back is almost impossible without using rescue. I have been playing my conjurer more because they actually got a nice fix, LOL. Anyway, just my 2 cents.
__________________
Dormant 50 Paladin of Mistmoore 35 Armorer |
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 05:54 PM
|
#12 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 52
|
This pretty well sums up my thoughts. I don't don't want or need utility. I want to be a a noticeably stronger tank against melee mobs. Sure, any of the fighter classes seem to be able to tank. There should be a tradeoff between utility and tanking ability. More utility means less tanking ability. The more utility you have, the less you should compare to a pure tank (guardian). Yes, we are a slight step above the pally and SK in mitigation and HP but there isn't enough difference between the classes. They are a far step above in utility (evac, rez, lifetap, heals, stuns, etc).
|
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 06:34 PM
|
#13 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 50
|
If I could resume the amount on bonus/malus SoE spreaded all around with this "Combat & Spell revamp" after testing it for a week, I'd say : - casters got 85% bonus 15% malus - scouts got 70% bonus 30% malus - healers got 55% bonus 45% malus - tanks got 30% bonus 70% malus
|
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 06:44 PM
|
#14 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 301
|
As a guard I don't want more utility, I don't want more mitigation than a paly! I don't want more HP than an SK, Monk Bruiser, etc! What I do want is what we have to work! I don't want token utility tools like sentry or vigilance which are virtually useless, please fix and enhance these. Lets not even get going on power(mana) drain. When I look across the group/raid windows and its guards and zerkers that are sitting there without any power while the healers and nukers are at 3/4 or full power, something is wrong. I'm sick of being asked "are you drinking?" Message Edited by Hammarus on 09-23-2005 09:47 AM
__________________
Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "I can't shake him!" Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "There too close!.....ahhhhhhghh!!" |
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 07:12 PM
|
#15 |
|
General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 212
|
Unfortunatly the SOE development team choose a formula for the combat change that boxed them into narrow definitions for some archtypes. I can understand if tanks were overpowered in the earlier combat version in comparison to scouts that change needed to be made. The problem is the little box the team is stuck in doesn't allow them to truelly comprehend play dynamics. I for one happen to think all melee classes should be more or less equal in dps and none should be overpowered or underpowered. Scouts are where they should be now (thankfully) but plate tank class got nerfed to compensate for this. SOE is stuck in the overall damage flow during fights and focus way to much on dishing out the majority to certain archtypes. Why can't a medium balanced approach be used. Make scout and fighters more or less equal in dps in most respects. Why are they stuck in this archtype roll BS. Everyone who plays the game should expect to be equal with all the others regardless of their archtype, class or subclass. As long as they remain stuck in this archtype roll box the combat system will be a failing one. They need to find true balance and quit switching it between archtypes for whatever imagined reason they conjure in their night time visions. Im certain a middle ground can be found for true balance, but SOE can't seem to get out of their box. Another year of tinkering will just leave them with many developers looking for greener pastures elsewhere. Frustration is probably already setting in for the free thinkers on the team. The problem is leadership. They have leaders driving bad ideas and the developer masses will get tired of all the bad ideas and just move on before their reputation are ruined. |
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 07:41 PM
|
#16 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
|
Let me get this straight. Unlike the people who hate the archetype system because it [supposedly] makes a game with only 4 classes, you don't like it because it gets in the way of a game with only 1 class. Everyone is in the same class [we'll call it Adventurer] and gets the same dps, protection, and everything else. Do we all have to be half-elves in your vision? |
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 08:21 PM
|
#17 |
|
General
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 698
|
I also played a Warrior in EQ1.. Why? because I wanted to tank raid mobs and warriors were the best defensive/mitigation class to do just that.. They had no utility and no DPS.. the trade off was fantastic defense and mitigation.. I left EQ1 for EQ2 (Much better graphics in EQ2 and I could roll a Mitigation tank) and again wanted the best defensive/mititgation raid tank.. After reading the docs from the EQ2 book and websites, and advice from guildies, it was clear the Guardian was the obvious choice.. Here's my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]: When I started playing EQ2, the info I had available to me at that time (7 months ago) lead me to the guardian. No where and I mean NO where did I read in the EQ2 book/docs/website that 9 months after release I "may" have to "relearn" my "New" character. I rolled my guard and was f'ing happy as hell playing him. My wife (48 Templar) and I (48 guard) rarely grouped.. Mostly we Dou'd. I enjoyed playing my guardian even more than my EQ1 warrior.. we both loved the game pre LU13. During the revamp testing I kept a close eye on what was going on.. I was expecting some tweaks here and there with Mitigation/avoidance etc.. Then a week prior to going live, they slap that 9/7 patch on test. When I started seeing folks post on that patch my jaw dropped.. I was like Holy [Removed for Content] [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]! This was NOT an above average LU.. this was a MAJOR f'ing change to the game mechanics that affected basically everyone. They [Removed for Content] nerfed soo much more [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] than what was expected (For me anyway). They even nerfed the manastone.. and Shields/Armor. That late in the testing phase one would expect minor tweaks here and there as the major changes should be pretty much worked out by then.. but this update was NOT minor by no stretch of the imagination. My theory on how this came about: It is no secret EQ2 was released way too early. It was not working as intended when it shipped.. A Dev even confirmed the combat system was not working as intended awhile ago.. but, WoW was going to be released so the SoE Management decided to ship it as is (Broke) in an attempt to get their fair share of the MMO customers that would have gone to WoW and figured they would "fix" EQ2 as they go.. Well we got our "fix" didn't we.. The reason the changes happend now vice 6-9 months from now is because certain classes complained that some classes can tank raid mobs better than them. So here we are.. My answer would have been "Then roll an f'ing Guardian" This also is the reason I believe we have those f'ing stupid server resets almost on a daily basis.. Again, it shipped broke and we, the paying customers have to deal with this crap. They knew the servers were Unstable at release but again figured they would "Fix" them as they go.. (Haven't seen that one yet) If they were gonna release an update of this magnitude, I believe they should have stood up some "Classic" servers.. Keep the existing (Pre LU#13) EQ2 on those and run the post LU13 on another set of servers.. Yes I know that would have meant basically supporting two games and SoE could have beefed up their manning to support that.. Then we would have had a choice.. Instead I am FORCED to "relearn" my "new" guardian. They had no problem rolling out some Station Exchange Servers now did they? The toon I rolled months ago is not the one I have now. They have stated they are in no way going back to Pre LU13. So we are done with EQ2. When I left Eq1 I was rather sad.. When I left EQ2, I was [Removed for Content] off, frustrated and felt mislead/betrayed. Now mobs 10 lvls below are green and guess what? seems like 70% of them are now ^ ^ ^. My wife and I are at a standstill now to complete quests.. the ones that would have been able to do ourselves we cannot.. Mobs hit a ton harder and have alot more HP's and with my crappy mitigation/avoidance and DPS and her crappy DPS, it now takes forever to kill [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. By the time we get 3-4 ^^^ killed we have respawn. The game for folks that Duo is a complete 180 now. This unfortunately is the SoE way of evolving EQ2. So, I think I am safe to say 8-9 months form now, when class X complains that class XX can do XXX better than them, Revamp number 2 will roll out. All those folks saying folks that do not like the new changes are "Whining" will get a rude awakening. Trust me it WILL happen. This last LU just proves that point. For those of you that still enjoy the game I am happy for you.. I wish I could say the same.. I wont give these f'ing clowns another frggin red cent. Never again will I play a SoE game.. Been playing Guild Wars and so far we like it.. and there is no monthly fee Later all!! Message Edited by Trook on 09-23-2005 11:11 AM |
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 10:30 PM
|
#18 |
|
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
|
I dual box my Guardian (lvl 50) with my Templar (lv 49). Here is what I love post revamp. We fight, I taunt one and a while, do a bit of weak dps, while she does reactives. All of a sudden the mob switches to aggro her. OK, it was just on me, then it went to her. I unload practically all of my taunts on it and it is still on her? Huh?
|
|
|
|
|
09-23-2005, 11:03 PM
|
#19 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 87
|
Shields/reactives are giving hate to the caster. Not a good change. I mean, how does the mob know I cast chillshield.
__________________
In memory of Grollerdabard |
|
|
|
|
09-25-2005, 10:09 AM
|
#20 |
|
General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 27
|
I really dont know who these people are and what game they are playing im a 51 guardian and i love the changes. I dont know what you all are doing to lose agro but since the patch i rarely lose it if i do its because i was chating and not taunting. Even the nukers are telling me "Woah nice change on the taunts i see didnt get agro even after nukeing it for xxxx points of damage" when i see that from a wizard class then i know im doing my job right and that they fixed my class. Those of you all who are having problems really need to go back and read what your spells do. If your losing agro and not geting groups because you think that other clases can do better then you all are smoking something and not sharing with the rest of us. This has been the BEST patch for guardians.
__________________
|
|
|
|
|
09-25-2005, 07:17 PM
|
#21 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 838
|
Let me introduce you to my AE-Warlock. Guardians need a boost in SOMETHING, being able to substitute a monk for a guardian is dispicable. I am a warlock, and I KNOW the importance of a good tank, without one I die. Hunker down applies aggro when the guardian gets hit? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? So if I pull aggro I might as well just suicide because there's no way of getting it back unless I have my 15-minute aggro reducer up. Tarton's wheel is broken, I can't even use it anymore because all of the zones are so clustered I'd get put into [another] wall and lose [another] shard. Give Guardians a strong taunt that isn't on a 10 minute timer and give them more mitigation.
__________________
Slips 70 Illusionist |
|
|
|
|
09-25-2005, 07:48 PM
|
#22 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,272
|
I'm just going to give a fresh perspective on this discusion from someone who doesn't play a fighter. My main is 50 Wizard, I also have an Inquisitor, Dirge, Assassin, and will probably start up a Coercer in the near future. As a Mage I know that when I decide which tree I'm going to branch off into it will drastically affect what I can do. I know that taking Sorcerer means I am going to be the one counted on for DPS and have some of the hardest hitting spells. The same with Scout and Assassin/Ranger. I know that if I choose the Enchanter line I'm not going to do as much DPS, but I'll have a lot more utility and help the fight in other ways. I've resigned to the fact that I'm going to help the party suceed by my power giving abilities and my crowd control. I won't do outright damage like a Wizard but as a Coercer I'll keep my group from taking a lot of damage and make them last a lot longer in a fight. I know that if I take the Summoner line my DPS is going to get close to a Sorcerer but won't be as good, but I have pets and more utility. When you break down those lines even further I know that choosing Wizard I'm going to have bigger single target nukes and that as a Warlock I'm going to have better AoE damage and efficiency than a Wizard. These are things I accept when I take these classes. I won't come back later saying as a Coercer I should do as much DPS as a Wizard simply because I choose Mage. I did my research before I choose the class I did and accepted the role I was going to play. Now, you may ask what this has to do with the Fighter class and discussion going on now, I ask you what relevance it doesn't have? Why should the distinction between the Fighter lines be any different than it is with Mages and Scouts? Mages and Scouts are generally considered the DPS classes, yet they don't all do the same DPS do they? Fighters are considered they tank classes what should make them all tank the same? Same goes with Priests as with Fighters. In the past I can say that I have grouped with every tank type, and I expected different things from each one, I adjusted my combat style to what I knew the tank could do and was capable of. I've done many a raid with a Berserker as the MT and never had a problem, I could nuke away (with all Ad3 and Master 1 nukes) and not pull agro from the Zerker or the Guard. I could group with any Fighter type and as long as they knew what they where doing easily adapt (admitedly I had little faith in Paladins, seems all of them on my server where horrible except about 3 who where awesome). Let me ask you this, why do you want all Fighters to have the same tanking ability? In my eyes this makes me not want more than 1 Fighter in the group, or more than a coule in a Raid. If your abilities are so focused on tanking and less on the utility what purpose do you serve in a group if there is another Fighter there? In most cases I'd far rather have another from any other Archtype. By making all tanks tank equally you make the selection of a class pointless and take away the groups need for you. If the non Guardian type firghters didn't tank as well (read Guardian best tank but in a normal group they can still tank, which is how it was) have all the utility and it is a good utility then I would be more enticed to have more than one in a group. As it stands right now I'd much rather have more DPS, another healer, or some Utility that could save our butts. Like I said, just a fresh perspective from someone who isn't a Fighter type.
__________________
Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 06:27 AM
|
#23 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
|
When only guardians could tank well only they were chosen as tanks when one was available. When no guardians were available other plate tanks were acceptable. When only brawlers were available groups waited or broke up. What you worry about happening [why have a second fighter when you can have more dps or another healer] had been happening for brawlers for months before the update. I don't mean to be harsh but when a Warlock's version of 'how it was' for non-guardian tanks conflicts with what I saw first hand I'm going to give it short shrift. |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 07:36 AM
|
#24 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,272
|
Nice to know you can read if all you picked up out of that was that I'm a Warlock (which happens to be wrong). Maybe you missed the part of my post where I clearly state that as a class that can do a lot of DPS as long as I had a tank that had a clue. I've had people other than Guardians tank raids with absolutely no problems (one of my tanks of choice was not a guardian). I already addressed the issues of classes within the same Archtype having different roles in groups (read roles of mage types in prior post). Why would you create 6 classes if they are all going to do the same thing? Why not just save the trouble and just create 1 class. The reason there are 6 classes is because they are all meant to fill slightly different roles. If you want to tank are you prepared to give up your ability to do DPS? If you are a Paladin on a raid are you going to sit there and whine and moan because you aren't the main tank and because you have to rez people when they die? No, because you know your role and are going to fill it, because that is how you best suit everyone else. Unlike Guardians other Fighter types do serve purposes in groups and Raids when they are tanking. How fair is it to Guardians that a Paly can rez and heal? Fighter doesn't inherently mean Tank, it means Fighter. It means you are a fighter. You are a melee class meant for melee purposes. What those purposes are are further defined by your class choices. All Fighter classes have an ability to tank, from that point it breaks down further. All Mage types cast spells, all Priests can heal, all Scouts can do Scout stuff (like track and sneak).
__________________
Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 02:37 PM
|
#25 |
|
General
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 698
|
I also see a big difference now in trying to get aggro back. It is way more difficult than before and sometimes I never get it back.. It's like night and day.. Rescue is great but on a 10 minute timer.. it kinda falls short in helping with getting aggro back.. We use to have more attack type taunts and those worked great.. rarely could I not get aggro back fairly fast. I believe part of this problem is that the taunts now get resisted so I pull with an arrow, Hit deafen before mob actually gets in camp and if Deafen is resisted, then I have to hurry and get next taunt off.. When Deafen is not resisted upon initial pull, holding aggro seems to go smoother.. When it is resited.. well, it can get very frustrating.. They put some of our attack taunts on the same timer now so that is another limiting factor.. Hope they take a look at this... Message Edited by Trook on 09-26-2005 03:47 AM |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 05:08 PM
|
#26 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 213
|
let me intruduce you to w8 5 secs till guardian got his hate spells off.... /sigh and get a bloody troubador or dirge cus trouba's own  , and reduce ur hate gain so much u wont get hate anyway whutever ya do, if tank is taunting a tad
__________________
- Signed Kungao -lvl 80 buffbot - 80 alchemist - 400 tinkerer |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 05:59 PM
|
#27 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 143
|
|
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 06:51 PM
|
#28 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: MPLS, MN
Posts: 221
|
One thing and one thing only. This is all BS. When I created my monk I didn't choose that fighter Archtype because I wanted to be a MT. I choose it because they were a fighter class that was unique from the plate tanks, and they had more DPS and could easily adapt to protect other group members from attacks. If they are going to make the base fighter all the same but with a different look then they better create some more classes because I thought the archetype was chosen to distinguish yourself from the rest of the fighters. As a matter of fact at level 10 you made a choice to be different then at level 20 you chose another path that would even distinguish you even more. If I want to be a MT I would have chosen the Guardian Archetype. It is great that my Monk can actually hold some aggro now, but I don't want to be a MT. Again, if they want all fighters to accomplish the same thing with a different look then they better just make some different classes. Monks were not meant, at least not based on what I have read, to be MT. In exchange for more DPS they had less taunting ability. Paladins were not meant to be MT. They were given more utility than Guardians in exchange they have less HP and less aggro control. What is so hard to understand about this. From what I read here some people want there to be 4 classes that all accomplish the same thing. That is BS.
__________________
Lord Sarron-Level 80 Swashbuckler Serpaw-Level 74 Berserker Simbarth-Level 22 Shadowknight/76 Alchemist |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 07:23 PM
|
#29 |
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 92
|
Lot's of monks and bruisers (and even most zerkers that i know) have been saying the same stuff. It has got to be hard to play the game as a dps class and the login to find that you're now a tank. I personally always thought fighter meant fighter, not tank. To me it seemed that there were dps classes within the fighter archetype that could be chosen over the more defensive types. I think the idea of a guitar playing Troubador out damaging a Bruiser is laughable. The Troubador chose a class that was defined as a support character, one that enhanced a group's abilities. The Bruiser read his class options and wanted to beat the snot out of stuff. To be honest, im not 100% unhappy with the changes. I sure thought i would be, i mean a few weeks ago i was sitting raid buffed at 10,000+ HP, 100% avoidance and resistances buffed where they needed to be. I was the MT for my guild, it wasnt a question as to who was going to tank Darathar next weekend. Now my avoidance is crap, the most HP ive seen so far is around 7500 (we havent raided yet, dont know how high ill be able to go). Now the playing field is a lot more level than it was, im no longer the best tank by default. Im working on being the best tank because of how i play and lead the group. Sure i think the mitigation is borked beyond belief (i swear the gnome warlock that I group with can take hits just as well as me) and i burn power WAY too fast... but all in all i'm really having fun so far. They have lots of work to do, but i havent even so much as moused over the cancel button...yet. Message Edited by mochlod on 09-26-2005 10:54 AM
__________________
Mochlod Thunderfrost (70 Guardian, Permafrost) Officer of Scarlet Horizon |
|
|
|
|
09-26-2005, 07:53 PM
|
#30 |
|
Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 301
|
Right now i got to say Mitigation, Power Burn, and buffs that are worthless are my biggest complaints, next to that, its all the repair costs to re-learn my character(who reimburses me for that by the way!! :smileymad Otherwise Im having fun. I like the overall flavor of the expansion, and in general the combat changes are ok,(not for raiding old world stuff though, that stuff is all messed up). Crexus 50 Guard/50 Weaponsmith
__________________
Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "I can't shake him!" Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "There too close!.....ahhhhhhghh!!" |
|
|
|
