Moorguard's Tips contradicting his own new con system

Rambling Diatri · 09-17-2005, 10:05 PM

Moorgard proclaimed:

Generally it is safe to assume that:
For every up arrow on a creature, add a person to your group to safely take it out.
For every down arrow on a creature, it can have a buddy and can still be taken solo

The reason I find this so amusingly contradicting is that they even bother to label ^'s as solo mobs. They aren't, he stated it right is his tutorial. For every one up arrow add a member, yet they are claimed and exping like solo mobs.

Where do those solo groups that involve 1 V with 2 VV cohorts fit in. Where do those 5 mob VVV solo groups fit in?

But at least now he's openly admited to the destruction of the Duo. You aren't supposed to be able to take a ^^^ with less than four. His words not mine, 1 plus three is definitely 4.

So this leaves me with the question. Are there supposed to be all these encounters whose con is mistakenly labeled solo. Should you be changing heroics to 4 or more?

And I just have to say that his blanket statement of, if you know how to play your class inside the revamp and have proper quality crafted gear and spell upgrades that you should be able to solo white and yellow no arrow mobs easily.

Are you really that disillusioned Moorgard? That statement is so sub-class subjective it isn't even funny. Or do you actually believe you managed a solo balance in the game. Because you didn't. In fact I will go so far as to say that there is an even bigger seperation in solo capacity of the sub-classes then there were before.

My 'Zerker is a pathetic soloer in comparison to my Dirge. Yet my Dirge couldn't solo his way out of a paper bag once compared to my Fury. Start comparing my Zerker to my Furies solo ability and he just looks sad. And so on, don't really wanna critique all my toons this post would be too long.

Of course within each archtype there are several very good soloist. But to be honest, half of the subclasses just plain can't solo well enough to pull down those white and yellow no arrow mobs EFFECTIVELY. I didn't even go so far as to hope for the "easy" that moorguard proclaimed they should be.

These statements have nothing to do with my ability to play my toons in the revamp. I was in the revamp the whole time. The subclasses are just that out of balance.

Though ya know what. If how Moorgard thought the world played is how it actually played. Might be kinda fun.

khalysta · 09-17-2005, 11:01 PM

Rambling Diatribe wrote:

Moorgard proclaimed:

Generally it is safe to assume that:
For every up arrow on a creature, add a person to your group to safely take it out.
For every down arrow on a creature, it can have a buddy and can still be taken solo

The reason I find this so amusingly contradicting is that they even bother to label ^'s as solo mobs. They aren't, he stated it right is his tutorial. For every one up arrow add a member, yet they are claimed and exping like solo mobs.

Where do those solo groups that involve 1 V with 2 VV cohorts fit in. Where do those 5 mob VVV solo groups fit in?

I don't think those are really mislabeled or mis-stated where I have seen them go into detailed con explanations. They have said the one up single mobs are an advanced solo encounter. That means they can be soloed by those with good gear and higher end spells like adept3. The true no arrow solo mobs on the other hand were designed for handcrafted armors and app4s. The one down arrow is just an easier solo mob while the groups of 2/3 down arrows are still a solo group the down arrows just mean they are weaker but the sum of them should be around a standard solo mob.

I don't think the duo is dead yet either. You just need to experiment with the different mobs and whatever your duo is. Different combinations are likely to work better but I would think the lower green con heroics would still be within grasp of many duo combinations. Again higher end equipment and spell versions will help in determining what you can and can't do as a duo. Some duo combinations might fly through solo content like 2 dps classes would do well I think just doing the solo encounters and flying through the mobs with little effort while other combinations might be able to take on heroics. Yes a heroic likely gives more xp than a solo encounter but its xp over time you want to worry about(ie duoing and going through several white/yellow solo encounters is going to get you more xp than struggling with heroics)

Rambling Diatri · 09-18-2005, 01:03 AM

Actually I was mostly trying to point out that the con system is extremely skewed based on subclass. And in general I believe a little out of wack based on how drasticaly that con interacts with the subclasses. Has nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with how they balanced group combat impacts solos and duos.

Thats where I see the problem being. I have many toons that I know intimately and have been playing the whole way through the revamp. And I look at the con system differently with each toon.

As a comparitive, my Berzerker looks at a white con no arrow solo mob andf thinks, rough fight. My Dirge looks at a white con no arrow mob and thinks, easy kill. My Fury looks at white con no arrow mob and thinks, yard trash.

Course the problem still lies in combat revamp itself. Groups are pretty well balanced out now. Especialy on the top end of the game. Duos depend entirely on the make up of the pair, but is in essence out of balnace because it is trapped to close to the solo and to green in the group game, mostly based on the way they balanced heroics for full groups by way of damage tuning.

But soloing has become more like it was in eq. Every subclass can solo. Some are just way better suited to it than the others. To the point of who gets hunt low blues and who gets to hunt high yellows. And in essecnce, to the point where the con system isn't accurate depending on subclass.

And his 1 extra member per ^ arrow relay does contradict the supposed cons of up arrow mobs. And his down arrow theory does leave some solo encounters a member heavy by his count. Not that I fight those solo encounters anymore, least not with most of my toons.

beylanu · 09-18-2005, 01:36 AM

Yah when I read his tips, I didn't agree either. Personally I don't care about the down arrows. But here is my general guideline based upon arrows. No arrow - 1 person ^ - 1 (uber person) or 2 normal person ^^ - 3-5 normal folks ^^^ - full group, 5(if they know what they're doing) It's more of a doubling effect. Of course nothing beats just trying and finding out yourself. I wish they would take the wording out of the con window. Just level, arrows, aggro status and epic indicator. Leave out the verbage, because the words tend to indicate that you can or you can't. That tends to give people false hopes.

ReturnOfMadness · 09-18-2005, 01:59 AM

the ^^^ dont mean much really, if ya know whut ur doing, as for 5-6 peeps for it...nahh no need for taht, know how to do a few "things" right and u will be ok, only need a solid group for those bloody caster mobs ;(

Chog · 09-18-2005, 02:21 AM

Rambling Diatribe wrote:

Actually I was mostly trying to point out that the con system is extremely skewed based on subclass. And in general I believe a little out of wack based on how drasticaly that con interacts with the subclasses. Has nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with how they balanced group combat impacts solos and duos.

Every subclass has strengths and weaknesses. With enough gear and spell upgrades, or a whole lot of player skill / luck; these weaknesses can be overcome.

Thats where I see the problem being. I have many toons that I know intimately and have been playing the whole way through the revamp. And I look at the con system differently with each toon.

I have 4 toons (one of each archtype) and look at the encounter make-up differently with each toon. Go figure each one has different strengths.

As a comparitive, my Berzerker looks at a white con no arrow solo mob andf thinks, rough fight. My Dirge looks at a white con no arrow mob and thinks, easy kill. My Fury looks at white con no arrow mob and thinks, yard trash.

Each class has strengths. While your berserker might look at a single no arrow white con and say rough fight, let him fight 4 mobs with 3 down arrows each, white con. Cake walk for a berserker. Dirge would have difficulty with that encounter because they would get swarmed and there avoidance would not work from the back. Dirges are great with one or two mobs in an encounter, get more then that and the fight starts to get tougher. This is not a bad thing for the con system, this is class diversity. Learn what encoutners your class is best suited for if you want least resistance for maximum gain.

Course the problem still lies in combat revamp itself. Groups are pretty well balanced out now. Especialy on the top end of the game. Duos depend entirely on the make up of the pair, but is in essence out of balnace because it is trapped to close to the solo and to green in the group game, mostly based on the way they balanced heroics for full groups by way of damage tuning.

Duo's should not be taking on heroic encounters unless they are well equipped. There are tough solo mobs made for well equipped solo players or regular duo's.

But soloing has become more like it was in eq. Every subclass can solo. Some are just way better suited to it than the others. To the point of who gets hunt low blues and who gets to hunt high yellows. And in essecnce, to the point where the con system isn't accurate depending on subclass.

Again, the con system works if you learn different encounters are better suited for certain classes. With my Berserker (level 50) and my Dirge (level 44) I can take yellow encounters and they give both of my toons a good fight. Some encounter types are easier for my Berserker while others are easier for my Dirge. The con system is not broken, class diversity and skills play a role.

And his 1 extra member per ^ arrow relay does contradict the supposed cons of up arrow mobs. And his down arrow theory does leave some solo encounters a member heavy by his count. Not that I fight those solo encounters anymore, least not with most of my toons.

Moorgard does not contradict himself. Stating each arrow up represents an additional person needed in the group is a guide, not written in stone. Solo players can take out a one arrow up mob if they are well equipped. Those one arrow up mobs are made for duo's (2 people in a group).

beylanu · 09-18-2005, 02:58 AM

ReturnOfMadness wrote:the ^^^ dont mean much really, if ya know whut ur doing, as for 5-6 peeps for it...nahh no need for taht, know how to do a few "things" right and u will be ok, only need a solid group for those bloody caster mobs ;(

See, the problem with your logic is this..a group that knows what it's doing, doesn't need a guideline to a con system. For those that are unsure, i.e. pickup groups and non-MMO experts, the guideline helps them determine the type of force that can take down such a mob. If less people is actually needed, good for them. I've soloed green ^^^. I've trio'd white ^^^. Still doesn't matter. Saying that "know what you're doing" and you won't need 5-6 peeps for ^^^ mobs isn't helpful to those that really need the con system to help gauge what is doable and what isn't. My guideline still stands. For ^^, I suggest folks have 3-5 people in their group. For ^^^ I would suggest 6, 5 at the least. Once you gain a solid understanding of that type of mob, feel free to be more daring.

Message Edited by beylanu on 09-18-2005 08:58 AM

EtoilePirate · 09-18-2005, 04:32 AM

beylanu wrote:Yah when I read his tips, I didn't agree either. Personally I don't care about the down arrows. But here is my general guideline based upon arrows. No arrow - 1 person ^ - 1 (uber person) or 2 normal person ^^ - 3-5 normal folks ^^^ - full group, 5(if they know what they're doing) It's more of a doubling effect. Of course nothing beats just trying and finding out yourself. I wish they would take the wording out of the con window. Just level, arrows, aggro status and epic indicator. Leave out the verbage, because the words tend to indicate that you can or you can't. That tends to give people false hopes.

Yes and no. I can take blue ^ about as easily as I can take regular blues or whites. I can take yellow no-arrows well enough. And I was in a group of 5 level 50s (assn, pal, defiler, and two mage-types) just blowing through level 52-53 ^^ and ^^^ encounters like the proverbial hot knife through butter. I like the wording, personally; it gives me a personal guideline to work against. If the game thinks I can handle something solo and I can't, I look at why. Is it a level disparity? is it my gear? My tactics? It's worth wondering, nine times out of ten. That tenth time... well, that's where I end up giving the game a definite [Removed for Content]face.

Marvolo62442 · 09-18-2005, 07:15 PM

The con system can never be 100% perfect, as every player is equipped differently, and each class is different. It is ONLY a guideline. Example, my lvl 37 Wizard wouldn't even bother to try to take out a yellow single up arrow, even if I do have mostly Adept III spells, because I know if my root breaks, I won't be able to survive very long. My 41 Shadowknight on the other hand, doesn't think twice about it, I know it'll be a tough fight, but I know I'm going to win 95% of the time, and to me, that's good odds.

On the other hand, my Wizard can rip through no arrow blue & white mobs in a quarter of the time my Shadowknight can(often take a blue out with 2 or 3 spells), and with far less downtime. The xp per kill is lower, but I can kill the mobs fast enough that it makes no real difference.

Amise · 09-19-2005, 02:30 AM

I don't find it contradictory at all. The con system simply takes into account the fact that a) soloers with above-average gear are capable of killing slightly more difficult solo mobs b) duos are not groups, and while they won't find solo mobs a challenge, they probably can't kill even-con heroics Mobs designated solo with one ^ are aimed at duos, and at soloers with above average gear. Personally I think it's great that the con system recognises the needs of duos, but if you wanna complain about that feel free!

Kordran · 09-19-2005, 10:12 PM

My personal way of determing if I can handle a mob goes like this: for every down-arrow, treat it as one con tier lower; for every up-arrow, treat it as one con tier higher, plus one. For example, if I see a yellow con mob with one down-arrow, then it'll have a difficulty similar to that of a white con mob. If I see a green con mob with two up-arrows, then it'll be as difficult as a yellow con mob. If it's heroic, I don't even attempt it unless its green and undead (I play a Paladin). Named heroics are right out, regardless.

You also have to take into account singles vs. linked mobs. All things being equal, a set of linked non-heroic mobs are individually weaker than a single mob of the same type and con. In fact, it's faster to kill 2 or 3 linked mobs than it is to kill those same mobs individually, and it gives a bonus and an increased chance at a chest drop (at least, that seems to be my own personal experience).

LenaDarksi · 09-20-2005, 03:57 AM

SOEs con system is ill concieved and messed up, but thats because they try to meld solo and group gameplay together seamlessly when in the beginning they should have shoved all the hardcore doodz on 2 servers where every mob is heroic and most every boss is a epic X2 but SOE isnt that smart. The other problem is what people think should be and its really stupid for some people to say single heroics should be balanced for a group, that is the dumbest thing i ever heard. If duos are both level 25, and a heroic mob is 23-25 then damnit it should be balanced to be duoed. It sounds really stupid when people say that shouldnt be duoed, like a pathetic heroic goblin or skeleton should be overwhelming death to 2 higher level people but then again its the same idots saying that that also say what most people call frustration is actually fun.

Suta · 09-21-2005, 12:39 PM

Amise wrote:
I don't find it contradictory at all. The con system simply takes into account the fact that

a) soloers with above-average gear are capable of killing slightly more difficult solo mobs

b) duos are not groups, and while they won't find solo mobs a challenge, they probably can't kill even-con heroics

Mobs designated solo with one ^ are aimed at duos, and at soloers with above average gear. Personally I think it's great that the con system recognises the needs of duos, but if you wanna complain about that feel free!

Spot on. Perfect reply. It is NOT contradictory at all.

Duo's are duo's, not a group.

Sunrayn · 09-21-2005, 09:30 PM

Sutava wrote:

Spot on. Perfect reply. It is NOT contradictory at all.

Duo's are duo's, not a group.

Thought you might want to see the definition of 'group'. Take special note of the bolded parts.

An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation: a group of dinner guests; a group of buildings near the road.
Two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture.
A number of individuals or things considered together because of similarities: a small group of supporters across the country.
Linguistics. A category of related languages that is less inclusive than a family.
A military unit consisting of two or more battalions and a headquarters.
A unit of two or more squadrons in the U.S. Air Force, smaller than a wing.
A class or collection of related objects or entities, as:
Two or more atoms behaving or regarded as behaving as a single chemical unit.
A column in the periodic table of the elements.
A stratigraphic unit, especially a unit consisting of two or more formations deposited during a single geologic era.

LenaDarksi · 09-22-2005, 07:15 AM

good point about duos being a group. Besides duos and soloers are alot more prevelent, more over who wants to join full groups with idiots that think their playstyle is the only valid one and anyone who wants to adventure and have fun has to join a full group or be happy taking on greys. I know i and alot of people dont want egotists like that around.

09-17-2005, 11:01 PM	#2
khalysta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 490	Rambling Diatribe wrote: Moorgard proclaimed: Generally it is safe to assume that: For every up arrow on a creature, add a person to your group to safely take it out. For every down arrow on a creature, it can have a buddy and can still be taken solo The reason I find this so amusingly contradicting is that they even bother to label ^'s as solo mobs. They aren't, he stated it right is his tutorial. For every one up arrow add a member, yet they are claimed and exping like solo mobs. Where do those solo groups that involve 1 V with 2 VV cohorts fit in. Where do those 5 mob VVV solo groups fit in? I don't think those are really mislabeled or mis-stated where I have seen them go into detailed con explanations. They have said the one up single mobs are an advanced solo encounter. That means they can be soloed by those with good gear and higher end spells like adept3. The true no arrow solo mobs on the other hand were designed for handcrafted armors and app4s. The one down arrow is just an easier solo mob while the groups of 2/3 down arrows are still a solo group the down arrows just mean they are weaker but the sum of them should be around a standard solo mob. I don't think the duo is dead yet either. You just need to experiment with the different mobs and whatever your duo is. Different combinations are likely to work better but I would think the lower green con heroics would still be within grasp of many duo combinations. Again higher end equipment and spell versions will help in determining what you can and can't do as a duo. Some duo combinations might fly through solo content like 2 dps classes would do well I think just doing the solo encounters and flying through the mobs with little effort while other combinations might be able to take on heroics. Yes a heroic likely gives more xp than a solo encounter but its xp over time you want to worry about(ie duoing and going through several white/yellow solo encounters is going to get you more xp than struggling with heroics)

09-18-2005, 01:59 AM	#5
ReturnOfMadness Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 213	the ^^^ dont mean much really, if ya know whut ur doing, as for 5-6 peeps for it...nahh no need for taht, know how to do a few "things" right and u will be ok, only need a solid group for those bloody caster mobs ;( __________________ - Signed Kungao -lvl 80 buffbot - 80 alchemist - 400 tinkerer

09-18-2005, 02:21 AM	#6
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Rambling Diatribe wrote: Actually I was mostly trying to point out that the con system is extremely skewed based on subclass. And in general I believe a little out of wack based on how drasticaly that con interacts with the subclasses. Has nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with how they balanced group combat impacts solos and duos. Every subclass has strengths and weaknesses. With enough gear and spell upgrades, or a whole lot of player skill / luck; these weaknesses can be overcome. Thats where I see the problem being. I have many toons that I know intimately and have been playing the whole way through the revamp. And I look at the con system differently with each toon. I have 4 toons (one of each archtype) and look at the encounter make-up differently with each toon. Go figure each one has different strengths. As a comparitive, my Berzerker looks at a white con no arrow solo mob andf thinks, rough fight. My Dirge looks at a white con no arrow mob and thinks, easy kill. My Fury looks at white con no arrow mob and thinks, yard trash. Each class has strengths. While your berserker might look at a single no arrow white con and say rough fight, let him fight 4 mobs with 3 down arrows each, white con. Cake walk for a berserker. Dirge would have difficulty with that encounter because they would get swarmed and there avoidance would not work from the back. Dirges are great with one or two mobs in an encounter, get more then that and the fight starts to get tougher. This is not a bad thing for the con system, this is class diversity. Learn what encoutners your class is best suited for if you want least resistance for maximum gain. Course the problem still lies in combat revamp itself. Groups are pretty well balanced out now. Especialy on the top end of the game. Duos depend entirely on the make up of the pair, but is in essence out of balnace because it is trapped to close to the solo and to green in the group game, mostly based on the way they balanced heroics for full groups by way of damage tuning. Duo's should not be taking on heroic encounters unless they are well equipped. There are tough solo mobs made for well equipped solo players or regular duo's. But soloing has become more like it was in eq. Every subclass can solo. Some are just way better suited to it than the others. To the point of who gets hunt low blues and who gets to hunt high yellows. And in essecnce, to the point where the con system isn't accurate depending on subclass. Again, the con system works if you learn different encounters are better suited for certain classes. With my Berserker (level 50) and my Dirge (level 44) I can take yellow encounters and they give both of my toons a good fight. Some encounter types are easier for my Berserker while others are easier for my Dirge. The con system is not broken, class diversity and skills play a role. And his 1 extra member per ^ arrow relay does contradict the supposed cons of up arrow mobs. And his down arrow theory does leave some solo encounters a member heavy by his count. Not that I fight those solo encounters anymore, least not with most of my toons. Moorgard does not contradict himself. Stating each arrow up represents an additional person needed in the group is a guide, not written in stone. Solo players can take out a one arrow up mob if they are well equipped. Those one arrow up mobs are made for duo's (2 people in a group). __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

09-18-2005, 04:32 AM	#8
EtoilePirate Tester Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,258	beylanu wrote:Yah when I read his tips, I didn't agree either. Personally I don't care about the down arrows. But here is my general guideline based upon arrows. No arrow - 1 person ^ - 1 (uber person) or 2 normal person ^^ - 3-5 normal folks ^^^ - full group, 5(if they know what they're doing) It's more of a doubling effect. Of course nothing beats just trying and finding out yourself. I wish they would take the wording out of the con window. Just level, arrows, aggro status and epic indicator. Leave out the verbage, because the words tend to indicate that you can or you can't. That tends to give people false hopes. Yes and no. I can take blue ^ about as easily as I can take regular blues or whites. I can take yellow no-arrows well enough. And I was in a group of 5 level 50s (assn, pal, defiler, and two mage-types) just blowing through level 52-53 ^^ and ^^^ encounters like the proverbial hot knife through butter. I like the wording, personally; it gives me a personal guideline to work against. If the game thinks I can handle something solo and I can't, I look at why. Is it a level disparity? is it my gear? My tactics? It's worth wondering, nine times out of ten. That tenth time... well, that's where I end up giving the game a definite [Removed for Content]face. __________________ Kella The Mighty Pirate, Assassin & Tailor Nimari, Fury-at-Large Test Server

09-19-2005, 10:12 PM	#11
Kordran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,484	My personal way of determing if I can handle a mob goes like this: for every down-arrow, treat it as one con tier lower; for every up-arrow, treat it as one con tier higher, plus one. For example, if I see a yellow con mob with one down-arrow, then it'll have a difficulty similar to that of a white con mob. If I see a green con mob with two up-arrows, then it'll be as difficult as a yellow con mob. If it's heroic, I don't even attempt it unless its green and undead (I play a Paladin). Named heroics are right out, regardless. You also have to take into account singles vs. linked mobs. All things being equal, a set of linked non-heroic mobs are individually weaker than a single mob of the same type and con. In fact, it's faster to kill 2 or 3 linked mobs than it is to kill those same mobs individually, and it gives a bonus and an increased chance at a chest drop (at least, that seems to be my own personal experience). __________________

09-17-2005, 10:05 PM	#1
Rambling Diatri Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 53	Moorgard proclaimed: Generally it is safe to assume that: For every up arrow on a creature, add a person to your group to safely take it out. For every down arrow on a creature, it can have a buddy and can still be taken solo The reason I find this so amusingly contradicting is that they even bother to label ^'s as solo mobs. They aren't, he stated it right is his tutorial. For every one up arrow add a member, yet they are claimed and exping like solo mobs. Where do those solo groups that involve 1 V with 2 VV cohorts fit in. Where do those 5 mob VVV solo groups fit in? But at least now he's openly admited to the destruction of the Duo. You aren't supposed to be able to take a ^^^ with less than four. His words not mine, 1 plus three is definitely 4. So this leaves me with the question. Are there supposed to be all these encounters whose con is mistakenly labeled solo. Should you be changing heroics to 4 or more? And I just have to say that his blanket statement of, if you know how to play your class inside the revamp and have proper quality crafted gear and spell upgrades that you should be able to solo white and yellow no arrow mobs easily. Are you really that disillusioned Moorgard? That statement is so sub-class subjective it isn't even funny. Or do you actually believe you managed a solo balance in the game. Because you didn't. In fact I will go so far as to say that there is an even bigger seperation in solo capacity of the sub-classes then there were before. My 'Zerker is a pathetic soloer in comparison to my Dirge. Yet my Dirge couldn't solo his way out of a paper bag once compared to my Fury. Start comparing my Zerker to my Furies solo ability and he just looks sad. And so on, don't really wanna critique all my toons this post would be too long. Of course within each archtype there are several very good soloist. But to be honest, half of the subclasses just plain can't solo well enough to pull down those white and yellow no arrow mobs EFFECTIVELY. I didn't even go so far as to hope for the "easy" that moorguard proclaimed they should be. These statements have nothing to do with my ability to play my toons in the revamp. I was in the revamp the whole time. The subclasses are just that out of balance. Though ya know what. If how Moorgard thought the world played is how it actually played. Might be kinda fun.

09-18-2005, 01:03 AM	#3
Rambling Diatri Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 53	Actually I was mostly trying to point out that the con system is extremely skewed based on subclass. And in general I believe a little out of wack based on how drasticaly that con interacts with the subclasses. Has nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with how they balanced group combat impacts solos and duos. Thats where I see the problem being. I have many toons that I know intimately and have been playing the whole way through the revamp. And I look at the con system differently with each toon. As a comparitive, my Berzerker looks at a white con no arrow solo mob andf thinks, rough fight. My Dirge looks at a white con no arrow mob and thinks, easy kill. My Fury looks at white con no arrow mob and thinks, yard trash. Course the problem still lies in combat revamp itself. Groups are pretty well balanced out now. Especialy on the top end of the game. Duos depend entirely on the make up of the pair, but is in essence out of balnace because it is trapped to close to the solo and to green in the group game, mostly based on the way they balanced heroics for full groups by way of damage tuning. But soloing has become more like it was in eq. Every subclass can solo. Some are just way better suited to it than the others. To the point of who gets hunt low blues and who gets to hunt high yellows. And in essecnce, to the point where the con system isn't accurate depending on subclass. And his 1 extra member per ^ arrow relay does contradict the supposed cons of up arrow mobs. And his down arrow theory does leave some solo encounters a member heavy by his count. Not that I fight those solo encounters anymore, least not with most of my toons.

09-18-2005, 01:36 AM	#4
beylanu Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 75	Yah when I read his tips, I didn't agree either. Personally I don't care about the down arrows. But here is my general guideline based upon arrows. No arrow - 1 person ^ - 1 (uber person) or 2 normal person ^^ - 3-5 normal folks ^^^ - full group, 5(if they know what they're doing) It's more of a doubling effect. Of course nothing beats just trying and finding out yourself. I wish they would take the wording out of the con window. Just level, arrows, aggro status and epic indicator. Leave out the verbage, because the words tend to indicate that you can or you can't. That tends to give people false hopes.

09-18-2005, 02:58 AM	#7
beylanu Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 75	ReturnOfMadness wrote:the ^^^ dont mean much really, if ya know whut ur doing, as for 5-6 peeps for it...nahh no need for taht, know how to do a few "things" right and u will be ok, only need a solid group for those bloody caster mobs ;( See, the problem with your logic is this..a group that knows what it's doing, doesn't need a guideline to a con system. For those that are unsure, i.e. pickup groups and non-MMO experts, the guideline helps them determine the type of force that can take down such a mob. If less people is actually needed, good for them. I've soloed green ^^^. I've trio'd white ^^^. Still doesn't matter. Saying that "know what you're doing" and you won't need 5-6 peeps for ^^^ mobs isn't helpful to those that really need the con system to help gauge what is doable and what isn't. My guideline still stands. For ^^, I suggest folks have 3-5 people in their group. For ^^^ I would suggest 6, 5 at the least. Once you gain a solid understanding of that type of mob, feel free to be more daring. Message Edited by beylanu on 09-18-2005 08:58 AM

09-18-2005, 07:15 PM	#9
Marvolo62442 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 36	The con system can never be 100% perfect, as every player is equipped differently, and each class is different. It is ONLY a guideline. Example, my lvl 37 Wizard wouldn't even bother to try to take out a yellow single up arrow, even if I do have mostly Adept III spells, because I know if my root breaks, I won't be able to survive very long. My 41 Shadowknight on the other hand, doesn't think twice about it, I know it'll be a tough fight, but I know I'm going to win 95% of the time, and to me, that's good odds. On the other hand, my Wizard can rip through no arrow blue & white mobs in a quarter of the time my Shadowknight can(often take a blue out with 2 or 3 spells), and with far less downtime. The xp per kill is lower, but I can kill the mobs fast enough that it makes no real difference.

09-19-2005, 02:30 AM	#10
Amise Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 473	I don't find it contradictory at all. The con system simply takes into account the fact that a) soloers with above-average gear are capable of killing slightly more difficult solo mobs b) duos are not groups, and while they won't find solo mobs a challenge, they probably can't kill even-con heroics Mobs designated solo with one ^ are aimed at duos, and at soloers with above average gear. Personally I think it's great that the con system recognises the needs of duos, but if you wanna complain about that feel free!

09-20-2005, 03:57 AM	#12
LenaDarksi Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 22	SOEs con system is ill concieved and messed up, but thats because they try to meld solo and group gameplay together seamlessly when in the beginning they should have shoved all the hardcore doodz on 2 servers where every mob is heroic and most every boss is a epic X2 but SOE isnt that smart. The other problem is what people think should be and its really stupid for some people to say single heroics should be balanced for a group, that is the dumbest thing i ever heard. If duos are both level 25, and a heroic mob is 23-25 then damnit it should be balanced to be duoed. It sounds really stupid when people say that shouldnt be duoed, like a pathetic heroic goblin or skeleton should be overwhelming death to 2 higher level people but then again its the same idots saying that that also say what most people call frustration is actually fun.

09-21-2005, 12:39 PM	#13
Suta General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 198	Amise wrote: I don't find it contradictory at all. The con system simply takes into account the fact that a) soloers with above-average gear are capable of killing slightly more difficult solo mobs b) duos are not groups, and while they won't find solo mobs a challenge, they probably can't kill even-con heroics Mobs designated solo with one ^ are aimed at duos, and at soloers with above average gear. Personally I think it's great that the con system recognises the needs of duos, but if you wanna complain about that feel free! Spot on. Perfect reply. It is NOT contradictory at all. Duo's are duo's, not a group.

09-21-2005, 09:30 PM	#14
Sunrayn Tester Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 498	Sutava wrote: Spot on. Perfect reply. It is NOT contradictory at all. Duo's are duo's, not a group. Thought you might want to see the definition of 'group'. Take special note of the bolded parts. An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation: a group of dinner guests; a group of buildings near the road. Two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture. A number of individuals or things considered together because of similarities: a small group of supporters across the country. Linguistics. A category of related languages that is less inclusive than a family. A military unit consisting of two or more battalions and a headquarters. A unit of two or more squadrons in the U.S. Air Force, smaller than a wing. A class or collection of related objects or entities, as: Two or more atoms behaving or regarded as behaving as a single chemical unit. A column in the periodic table of the elements. A stratigraphic unit, especially a unit consisting of two or more formations deposited during a single geologic era.

09-22-2005, 07:15 AM	#15
LenaDarksi Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 22	good point about duos being a group. Besides duos and soloers are alot more prevelent, more over who wants to join full groups with idiots that think their playstyle is the only valid one and anyone who wants to adventure and have fun has to join a full group or be happy taking on greys. I know i and alot of people dont want egotists like that around.