Experience Debt Changes Coming Soon to Test

[Zapo]

A little side note for all those who say remove debt at all. That's not a good idea. Let's assume there will be no debt at all. Result: Everyone is leveling faster But: SOE doesn't want us to level faster. Time needed to level is money for SOE. And they are still a company based on profit. How can they compensate that: Easy, increase the amount of xp needed per level. In the end you trade your group debt or solo debt against a game debt. And there is no way any player can influence that. Regardless how well or bad he plays his toon. Do you like that idea ? I don't.

[lstead]

I fully support removing it. It won't change the gameplay of good groups one bit because good groups and good players already do their jobs. They  don't need shared xp debt to force them to. All it will do is protect people from the stupidity of others. Last night I was in a group where soemone decided it would be great to pull awholebunchastuff when the group was on the move and separated. When he did it for the second time, all I could do was keep hiting "leave group" until I caught a second when he wasn't in combat. It would have made much more sense for him to take the hit, there's no reason to expose everyone to it. With shared debt I dumped the group. Without debt we probably would have talked a second and booted him.

[Tuved2]

Blackguard, if you guys are worried enough about the loss of EQ2 subscriptions to change exp debt, some advice to you. Don't make the combat changes live cause that is going to kill your game.

[roarfrost]

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SheyvaRift wrote:
Normally, if I get over 1% solo, I quit playing for the day, period.
 It just isn't worth wasting the time to dig out of debt. So, in a nutshell, if I don't have guildies to play with, I''m in Harclaves.

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Debt penalty is a total joke. You can peel off 1-2% debt in a very short time. Unless you are level 49 with no vitality, just quitting like that is just silly. No wonder people like this support no death penalties. They're the same ones afking 24-7 in the no-risk god-mode Harclaves zone. Some of us still like a challenge. Removing the already laughable death penalty is not best thing for the game.

 

[Zebbin]

I really like the shared exp debt.

 

Though I am all for making it range dependent, and perhaps not giving it for, falling deaths.

 

Here is my major reason.

 

I know in some respects this is a bad comparision but....

 

In eq1 I played an enchanter, and I died a lot! Why? because tanks always had healing  prioity, not to mention low hp, cloth armor, and high agro spells (but that a whole nother mess). Yes I play a chanter in eq2, so I guess at some level I am  accepting of dying a lot. On the other hand, I really value the fact that my group doesn't  see me die and think.... yeah that happens....they think, what could I have done to stop that from happening.

 

Obviously, as some people have indicated...they think...stupid chanter...getting himself killed from casting buffs on people..and trying to controll mobs...now I have to carry 1% exp debt for him dying. These are not people I want to group with.

 

If range limitations were added to shard exp debt, people could still have a chance to be heros, holding of the encouter a few seconds while allowing the group to run to a safe distance. I have to admit I do sort of mis this from eq1, I liked being able to mez a few more adds then I new I could handle and let the rest of the group manage to zone. Especially since I knew saving ther cleric ment a 96% rez in a few min, and sometimes a 100% one if it was up.

 

That said, total whipes can be a bit painful.

 

That is to say,  the current system works well to prevent single deaths under fairly normal circumstances. But it appears, that when a total whipe happens you end up with more exp debt than if you had died solo (I'm not technically sure of this, it just feels that way). Even so the amount still is typically very low, and people who have played at all know it will go away very quickly.

 

As to the debt at lvl 50. The only thing I know is that lvl 50's dont get exp? It seems wrong that they are not allowed to be able to pay off debt by getting exp.

 

I am certianly not gogin to quit if shared exp debt goes away (I'm more concerned abotu the "combat" changes) but I'm willing to bet I die a lot more in non-guild group. I can't say I'm sure this will be evaulated well on test. Mostly because test players are probably the most dedicated players. As such they will play and group...and probably go out of thier way to be decent group mates and keep people from dying in the firstplace. (ok thats a massive assumption, but it is in keeping with my experince on the test server so far)

 

 

 

 

[Kaereni]

Keep it a part of shared group debt. 

[Perot]

Removing shared debt is a bad idea.  Penalties for making mistakes motivates new and unskilled players to work with the experienced members of a group to learn their role and other class roles.  There are greater rewards for group adventuring. How can there not be greater risk?  We are only talking about 1-2% per death. Tweaking the dept radius sounds like a great idea, btw.It would be nice to see some anonymous data (adventure level, play time, kill vs. death ratio, etc) about the players who quit due to shared dept....why?  Because this kinda change reeks of being an excuse to conform to the extreme mass market, anyone can be "Uber", appeal of other unchallenging and uninteresting MMORPGs.The latest games to hit the MMORPG scene are the least challenging in the history of MMORPGs.  There seems to be a tendency of making a game easier to play whenever some players decide to quit.  It's time to draw the line and stop redesigning/changing fundamental areas of a game in an attempt to keep monthly subscriptions/fees at a max in the short term.  Continually accommodating the the "lowest common denominator" player with player-base-wide changes will shift the desire to quit to those who are seeking challenge.  "More challenging"  is a distinction that EQ2 can't afford to loose.If isn't broken, don't CHANGE it.

Message Edited by Perotin on 08-18-2005 12:19 PM

Message Edited by Perotin on 08-18-2005 01:07 PM

[Bookbunny]

Ah now there is a good idea.  ASK your players what they want.  And not here on the forums where everyone starts off mad, ask in a poll in game so every player gets a voice.  Then perhaps you can work on listening to that voice.

[Halan]

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Cassious wrote:

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Dreadwalker wrote:

Truth be told, group experience debt is frequently cited as a major reason players quit playing EverQuest II.

This should be the single factor that makes this change stick regardless.  A MMORPG is only good when you have a heap of poeple playing the game at all levels.  If someone would of kept playing  if grouping was more  friendly and less risky then we need changes to keep that person playing.

Currently if you look at the forums you will see " Harclave is ruining EQ II"  , "Why are poeple not grouping" etc etc.  The problem here is simple one. Poeple dont like assuming the risk of someone else. If a group goes bad and  you have to run why is the "debt" the biggest issue over not beating the challenge or completeing the quest or having to start at the beggining of the instance again.

Those who are not happy with the changes  - do you guys play in pickup groups ?  Im not talking level 50 pickups but at level 25 , level 15 etc ??  If you only group with friends / guild mates then that is the problem right there in a nutshell.

New player comes along cant find many groups ,  gets a pickup group with inexperienced poeple and gets some debt .. gets risk adverse to more grouping any time soon.  Gets bored quits.  I have had mixed success finding groups closing on 30 and I have one person in my friends list.   So for 6 + days played thats not very good.  The only reason Im still playing is that solo is still viable and fun , improve grouping in this game and we all be  the better for it.

Look at WOW. Pickup groups happen all the time. You bump into new poeple some good some bad, you meet new friends , you experience the tough content and get the better gear.  Why should any system discourage the active experimentation in different groups with different poeple.  I never get a message in EQ II saying "hey we need a mage for XX" .  In WOW it was done all the time. You need a tank "/who Warrior 60" and start asking - many (100's for me) groups formed this way.  In EQ II its like a closed club , not a friend or guild member then not interested.   Did i get bad groups ? - Yes but it was rarer and Id add bad players to my dont group list.

Also with the combat revamp , the days of solo killing the heroic green mob to fininish a quest may be over.  This will mean more grouping is needed and this needs to be encouraged.

Good change SOE , looking forward to it in live.  I hope the other long time players also realise changes that keep poeple in the game is good for all of us. 

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Wonderful post. I am completely dumbfounded by the number of people opposed to this change. Every since the game was released, I have ready hundreds of post from people complaining about the shared debt. I feel sorry for SOE at the moment. They can’t win! No matter what they do a people attack, criticize, and belittle their decision. It is a fact that grouping in this game is and has been on the declining. There are many reasons for this and shared debt is one of them. I am a five-year veteran of EQ live and I see the benefit of shared debt right way, however, ever decision has its pros and cons. The question is do the cons outweigh the pros? If shared debt is the reason people don’t play then remove it. If shared debt is the reason that people don’t group then remove it. The simple fact is MMOs NEED a lot of people to make the game world fun. There is nothing I hate more than gaining a new level pooling my coin to buy my new equipment and not being able to find anything for sale because no one is crafting. The more people that play and stay with the game equal more potential crafters, group members, guild recruits, raiders…ect. In short the more the merrier.

 

I will agree that the death penalty is a little low however after 5 years of running naked through hostile zones (which sometimes took hours of my game time) in order to retrieve my corpse, I find the death penalty very refreshing and I for one will not complain about it.

 

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I too think was an excellent post.

 

I prefered the death penalty in EQ to EQ2.  The higher level you got to the less it meant, that's how it should be.  Someone mentioned in this thread that it takes the same amount of kills to get rid of debt at 10th level, that it does at 45th level.  That's not right, in my opinion.  It should be harder at 10th level.  You're a young adventurer and learning what life as an adventurer is, take your lumps and learn from them.

 

Item decay, personal debt and instance lockout from death, and time is enough of a penalty for me.   SOE could even take away the personal debt for all I care,  put experience loss back in.  I bet if someone could loose their level, they'd be alot more careful.  Nothing makes me stop playing, for the evening, faster than dying 2 or 3, or more times in a row.  If I lost my level due to dying, I'd be more inclined to staying online and getting it back, than logging off and letting the debt go away.

 

Another option, that I could think of is to let us use vitality to remove debt, immediately.  Loss 10% of your vitality to remove 5% experience debt.  This may have been mentioned, but I didn't read every post word for word, I did read most of them though.

 

Shared debt doesn't encourage roleplaying either.  As a berserker, I don't run from a fight...that's just how I roleplay.  I've had people in groups get mad at me for that, as well as remove me from a group for stating that..."I don't run."  With my assassin, yeah...I run, usually before it's suggested to, I'll even try to trip the mage as I run...that's just how I roleplay it.

 

So, I'll say YAY! for the debt change, hope it goes live, as is.

 

 

P.S.  A little off-topic, but I'd like to add in that the meeting stones in WoW are a great idea, if an idea needed to be stolen for EQ2, it's this one.  Have a sign up board type thing at the entrance to places like Cove of Decay or the heroic instances in splitpaw, that you put your name on and groups are automatically formed for you, as other people sign up on it, that match your level.  Could make it better by having it be able to filter certain classes....every group would need at least 1 healer and 1 tank type.

[borg0]

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ITZBITZ wrote:
I say eliminate debt period. In a 50 raiding guild, you die often, it's part of figuring out encounters and how to beat them. I don't think anyone has less than 5% debt or so since nobody has combat xp on to avoid having zero vitality on DoF launch day. And you only sleep off 1-2% a day. And we raid every day and most of the time we get by with no wipes but there are always certain players (mostly coercer/illusionists due to huge aggro from breeze on two groups). In fact, we raid so much there is little to no time to "xp to clear out debt."

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If you're raiding so often that you're never given a chance to work off debt, then perhaps the leadership of your guild should consider playing in a more well-rounded manner.  Maybe then you'd collectively have the oppurtunity to work off the debt you say you're constantly burdened with, and you'd be also have some time to group for loot to pay for the excessive repairs that result from your constant raiding.

[CaptainDesti]

Most people that hate shared debt have already left the game. You won't see them posting here arguing for their side. And they are the majority. You better do some advertising if this change goes lives. You know that it is a big selling point.

90% of my guild that came from EQ1 when to WoW because of this. People don't like being punished for something they have no power to control. In EQ2, only the fighter and healer really have any say about whether the group lives or dies in most situations.

Assuming the fighter and healer are doing their jobs, it's really easy for the mages and scouts to stay alive. All they have to do is follow instructions, assist, and not over-aggro. If they don't, they should die and no one should have to pay for their mistakes either.

The only players with a valid claim to shared xp are the fighters. They are always at the mercy of the healer. Of coarse, if the healer keeps letting them die, I doubt the fighter will group with that healer again anyway so the problem takes care of itself (or maybe you could slightly reduce xp debt for fighters as compensation for this if you think it is enough of a problem /shrug).

There is a reason why no other MMO has shared xp or ever will. It's not just.

 

The game doesn't need to enforce everything for you. If you are a mage/scout and the healer isn't healing you, then don't group with that healer again. Reputation does mean something in this game. Why does the game need to arbitrarily try to enforce some penalty?

 

The death penalty is relative to people. Everyone draws the line in a different place for how much is enough. 4 million in WoW seem to think wasting a half hour getting your corpse back is enough. Why are people arguing that the death penalty is being reduced? It's not. Only shared debt is going away.

 

Shared xp debt has always been a grouping deterant IMO.

 

[Donners]

Yes I also think its a good way to remove group dept. Will make grouping more fun again

[UUCyberSte]

Please do not change the debt system.  Nuff Said!  (besides, everyone else has already said enough)

[Trei]

["... 90% of my guild that came from EQ1 when to WoW because of this. P ..."] lol... not surprised they chose WoW to move to... ["... The game doesn't need to enforce everything for you. If you are a mage/scout and the healer isn't healing you, then don't group with that healer again. Reputation does mean something in this game. Why does the game need to arbitrarily try to enforce some penalty? ..."] The same could be say for the opposite; if this fella keeps getting group into debt, don't group with him anymore. So you rather die and get full debt for someone else's screw up then? ["... In EQ2, only the fighter and healer really have any say about whether the group lives or dies in most situations...."] Really..? I say 'Live'  all the time with my evac button. Equal radius as xp share on debt share will be more than good enough.

[indigolily]

We just had a major game overhaul, because some classes claimed to be getting the shaft. Now the proposal of removing xp debt sharing within a party?

 

As a healer, this would make me far less likely to group with strangers, who are losing a bunch of their incentive to protect the party casters

 

Minnah Mousze of Test 

 

 

I do support the idea of Debt Radius, no one likes to see a person on their way to a group rack up a whole pile of debt to share.

Message Edited by indigolily on 08-18-2005 12:09 PM

[Kir]

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Ubari wrote:

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Kiris wrote:

I think mmo players just like to complain to hear themselves complain, it wouldnt matter what changes are made, people are going to whine about it. 

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This kind of trolling is counter-productive to the discussion we were pleasantly having. Facts, and your opinion of the facts are one thing, but insulting people is another.

 

 

From the looks of things, it sounds as though many people agree that further ranged groupmates should not grief a group.

Message Edited by Ubari on 08-18-2005 02:58 AM

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You are right its not, but when im told im a "whimp" or "whiner" because the 2 hours I get a night to play I choose NOT to group because of group debt then who cares if I call those people out for what they are.  The bottom line is there is two sides to this fence, the players who want EQ1 ish tedium and grind, and those who dont.  Unfortunatly for you and the rest of your type (im guessing not hardcore, but not casual either right?) is that WoW has proven that the majority of people DO want a game where you dont spend insane amounts ofime doing stupid things like Corpse Recovery or trying to get back from shared debt. there is a reason that people play wow in droves, and its not because its a grind game, its because its fun (to those people) no hassle no bs game.  You log in, you group or solo either way progression is the same, you dont have insane amounts ofme spent on CR's or working off debt, you dont spend hours pushing stupid mindless buttons that mean nothing for crafting, you dont have to have 50 thousand different ingredients from 20 different players or spend 200 hours leveling all the crafts yourself... and you know what?  They have a game thats flourishing, they have a crafting system thats fun so EVERYONE not just crafters can enjoy it.  They have a system where the casual player can be just as happy as the hard core gamer.  The funny thing is, everyone calls WoW carebear, but the guild I was in for EQLive which was the top guild (well top 2) on the server is in wow and enjoying it right now... finished Ragnorak, BWL is next on the hit list and they said they would NEVER play another SoE EQ based game because they are afraid of the boredom of leveling,  the constant need for them to make things time sinks instead of challenging and because frankley there is too many players who dont know what they want and come here and complain. Frankly, as long as EQ2 keeps going down the road to making the game more accessable for everyone, ill be here.  The second it becomes just another grind / tedious time sink I just like the rest of the userbase who already has, will leave and the 4-5 pages of people who want eq1 with better graphics can be playing together on empty servers. I know it sounds harsh, but its reality and nothing you say can out weight the subscription numbers of WoW players to EQ2 players and SoE would be smart to take notice.

[Errie_Tholluxe]

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Gage-Mikel wrote:

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The range was something almost all of us at the Community Summit agreed with.  If you are at the Cove of Decay, and someone joins your group at the TS docks and they die navigating the dead river, YOU SHOULD NOT SHARE IN THAT DEBT.  At all.  Because you aren't there to be able to help them avoid death.

BUT to penalize only the person who dies in a group with debt, while allowing all of those members a chance at heroic loot, and finishing heroic quests that absolutely require more than one person to finish, is 100% not fair.

Not to mention the various other negatives, like classes who die more than others, etc etc.

Except for the range difference, nothing about xp debt should change imho.

Its already a fairly trivial death penalty as it is, lets not dumb the game down anymore and give people even more reason to not be responsible and/or earn their rewards.

Its a group, if you don't want to deal with possible debt from other players, solo.

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  I agree 100% Gage. While I understand people get upset with those who dont know the role they should play, this is unfair in the extreme versus some classes. What would be the driving desire to help the poor Illusionist or Coercer who DID play the class just right, and died because of it? Heck, its HIS debt, why help pay it off, we are done here... Thats not right. I dont play either of those classes atm, but in any situation where they MUST jump in to mez or charm to keep the group alive, odds are, they are gonna be agro magnets the minute it breaks... "Hey, dude, why did ya run and let us die instead of mez'in?" Didnt want debt ! Live with it, dont eradicate it.   Can you see being 50% exp debt from raids and people not caring, cause hey, they only got 3%, phht no big deal ! The current set up is fine, although I agree, it should be a radius. If you can SEE your team member, you should share in debt.

[songrider]

It will be interesting to see the results of this change.  If statistics show that many people are leaving the game because of this issue, then it should be changed.  Although shared debt has never been a problem issue for me (nor for most of the respondents to this thread), I am in favor of changes that will increase the population and success of the game as a whole.  I want EQ2 to last for a very long time  :smileywink:

 

 

Message Edited by songrider on 08-18-2005 10:37 AM

[Sanjinn]

I like the idea of grp XP debt getting the boot.  That is the main reason I do not play with pick up groups.  I really do not care that it is easy to get rid of with a little effort, I should not have to be punnished because someone is a idiot, a new player, or what ever.  On the rare occasion that I choose to join a pick up group nothing ruins the fun like some one screwing off and getting debt then droping the group.  Now your stuck with this huge amount of debt from their non recoverd shard.  Why should the group pay for the over eager caster that likes to nuke the mob till they glow and rake up so much hate that the tank can't get the mob off them.  The healer tries to keep them alive to avoid the debt from them dieing and to do their job of healing only to die right after because they have gained so much hate from healing the caster.  I ask you again why should I be punnished because of someone else? 

What can be done you say to make death mean something? Well a few options, make it perma death. You die your dead, end of story.  There ya go now the death means something, now it is tough on you if you die.  Yes thats a drastic sugestion to a silly statement of death means nothing as it is in EQ2.  The best option in my opinion is to raise the amount of death debt based on player level.  This way the person that dies because they screwed off or over nuked or ran into the room full of Red ^^ mobs gets all the debt and not there group.  It is not like the group can root them in place or set a limit on how much a caster can nuke so why should we suffer for them?

 

[ValdacilFelagund]

Just to put my 2 cp in... I HATE THIS.  It doesn't reward groups for performing well together.  Now you are going to get the healer who just focuses on the tank and lets the mage die.  Or the Tank who doesn't bother to hold agro and lets a bunch of ppl die.  Or you are going to get the person who runs at the first sign of danger so that he doesn't die and gain debt, but results in the rest of his group falling prey to their foes.  This also doesn't teach those careless ppl who go running into a room full of mobs to play smarter.  Currently, if you have those kind of careless ppl, they will quickly find that nobody wants to group with them and thus they are forced to learn how to play more carefully so they can get groups.  After this they can remain as careless as ever and they will be the only one to suffer.

I don't think the 50% cap is a bad idea.  50% is a whole LOT of debt (never had that much myself) and would certainly be difficult to work off that much.  (That's the time when I would camp the character and play an alt while they camp off the debt)   But removing shared debt is a bad idea.  The current system is shared debt doesn't share a lot anyway (like only 1% per person that dies), so that's only 5% if everyone except 1 person dies.  That's not bad at all.  Yes, sometimes you wipe, but it teaches you to play better together.

[Pins]

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borg023 wrote:

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ITZBITZ wrote:I say eliminate debt period. In a 50 raiding guild, you die often, it's part of figuring out encounters and how to beat them. I don't think anyone has less than 5% debt or so since nobody has combat xp on to avoid having zero vitality on DoF launch day. And you only sleep off 1-2% a day. And we raid every day and most of the time we get by with no wipes but there are always certain players (mostly coercer/illusionists due to huge aggro from breeze on two groups). In fact, we raid so much there is little to no time to "xp to clear out debt."

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If you're raiding so often that you're never given a chance to work off debt, then perhaps the leadership of your guild should consider playing in a more well-rounded manner.  Maybe then you'd collectively have the oppurtunity to work off the debt you say you're constantly burdened with, and you'd be also have some time to group for loot to pay for the excessive repairs that result from your constant raiding.

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Gonna have to agree.  But wait, why the hell do you not have Combat XP on?  You know it takes 1 week(that mesn on the 5th, turn it off) to regain 100% vitality.  Heck, it took me about 8 days to burn through 50% debt at Lv50(lets just say, K'Dal, Zerg, and leave it at that).  I burnt it off, wasn't a big deal, so did everybody else in the raid.  But turn the combat xp back on if you want to get out of debt. Oh no, the coercer/illusionist died, and all I got was debt and this silly wooden chest.  Honestly if a Coercer is getting aggro, he's doing too much and not controlling his overall aggro, same with an Illusionist.  As an Illuisionist, I know when I pull too much aggro, sometimes it's safe to do, other times, it's dangerous and I know when not to do it, so your Enchanters need to figure that out themselves as well. To the subject at hand.  Shared XP Debt.  Should it exist?  I think so, why?  Because if the tank dies, it either means the healer isn't do his/her job, or the group is in over their head.  Mage/Scout getting aggro?  They aren't pacing themselves.  Healer getting aggro?  Doing too much of the non-healing.

[Zebbin]

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I know it sounds harsh, but its reality and nothing you say can out weight the subscription numbers of WoW players to EQ2 players and SoE would be smart to take notice.

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 I don't really belive it is fair to compair subscription numbers on WOW to eq2. Yes WOW has an ungodly high number of players. You say it's because the game is "carbare" and thats fun. I guess that could be true.

On the other hand, in my epxerpience people play WOW, because people played warcraft. If you think back to eq1 times, SOE had the corner on the maket, and had what 400,000 subscribers? No one not even the Blizzard thought the market was as big as turned out to be. Why?

Well my limited experience is that a ton of people who said they would never pay a monthly fee to play a video game, suddenly thought wow a rpg based on Warcraft! I guess XX dollers/month won't kill.. I mean come on.. its warcraft. In fac [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kind of [Removed for Content] me off when som many people I know, who were always calling me silly for paying a month fee to play a game, suddenly were all playing WOW, because..."hey, its warcraft!"

I just don't think you can do anyhting to  compare with level of advertising offered by having warcraft as your predicessor.

I don't personally see exp debt, as tedious. The quality of content availble, plus mentoring, means I can lvl at any pace and its really not such a big deal. I don't need to grind up to level 50. In fact doing so I am basically removing tons of fun stuff I could do in the game. I know a number of level 50 folks who are bored out of ther minds. They often regret grinding and not just enjoying the game around them.

Maybe you can make eq2 a "carebare" game, and maybe in the end you will end up with a ton of players, or even siphon off some people from WOW who have done what there is to do there.  And I suppose its in SOE's best intrest to do just that. I will say I know a few people who switched to eq2 because, "its a lot more challenging and fun". I guess to each his or her own. 

 

Message Edited by Zebbin on 08-18-200510:45 AM

Message Edited by Zebbin on 08-18-2005 10:45 AM

[Halan]

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Valdacil wrote:

Just to put my 2 cp in... I HATE THIS.  It doesn't reward groups for performing well together.  Now you are going to get the healer who just focuses on the tank and lets the mage die.  Or the Tank who doesn't bother to hold agro and lets a bunch of ppl die.  Or you are going to get the person who runs at the first sign of danger so that he doesn't die and gain debt, but results in the rest of his group falling prey to their foes.  This also doesn't teach those careless ppl who go running into a room full of mobs to play smarter.  Currently, if you have those kind of careless ppl, they will quickly find that nobody wants to group with them and thus they are forced to learn how to play more carefully so they can get groups.  After this they can remain as careless as ever and they will be the only one to suffer.

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Maybe they should add in a grouping no death bonus, for every hour that nobody in the group dies, the entire group gets x amount of experience.  The timer would get reset everytime someone new joined the group.(ie: different character name, that would prevent LD's messing up the timer)

For the bolded statement...this happens now, way more than it would if there was no shared debt.

 

[Tue]

Funny i never even noticed the debt in the first place and has never slowed me down from hitting 50.  I have to say that the death penalty in this game is far more forgiving than any other MMORPG ive played

[Vladdax]

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Sanjinn wrote: hat is the main reason I do not play with pick up groups.  I really do not care that it is easy to get rid of with a little effort, I should not have to be punnished because someone is a idiot, a new player, or what ever.  On the rare occasion that I choose to join a pick up group nothing ruins the fun like some one screwing off and getting debt then droping the group.  Now your stuck with this huge amount of debt from their non recoverd shard. So if it happens that an idiot player agros a mob jsut as your buffing the group you'd rather have the full 6x debt rather than shared? Oh and it makes no difference whether other group members recover their shard or not. the missing shard debt is seperate and only affects that specific player.

 Why should the group pay for the over eager caster that likes to nuke the mob till they glow and rake up so much hate that the tank can't get the mob off them.  The healer tries to keep them alive to avoid the debt from them dieing and to do their job of healing only to die right after because they have gained so much hate from healing the caster.  I ask you again why should I be punnished because of someone else?

So what? The healer should jsut not heal the caster at all jsut in case they get agro from it? Sounds a real nice way to make friends. Or they do heal the caster and take full 6x debt jsut for being nice? What if because the caster is dead the group had no dps to kill the mob and 2 or 3 more die? Well spose thats ok if your the one who runs early enough not to die eh...

I'm sorry but you can use very simmilar examples for shared debt. Why should i get 6x the debt because a tank is useless or too cheap to upgrade skills and I get agro because of that? The main raid tank in my guild can hold agro no matter what i throw at the mob, I've played with tanks who can't even hold my autoattack damage and a few procs. Near the end of a hard fight but the healer can't keep up with the mob damage. Why should I get 6x times to debt by grabbing agro and tanking till i'm dead to give the healer a chance to catchup on the tank? Been there done that, might not try to save the group next time. I guarentee if this change goes though you'll see posts jsut like those examples swamping the forums for weeks.

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[ganjookie]

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BallardDav wrote:

I'm opposed to the change.  I think shared debt is important for two reasons:  it's a reason to keep everybody alive, and it's a reason to sacrifice yourself to save others.  This would never happen in a guild group, but I can see being in a pick-up group where the tank's not worried about keeping aggro off of DPS or the healer's not worried if the tank dies as long as the mob's also about dead, because it's not THEM that's getting debt for dying.  You should want to keep everybody in the group alive, and good groups do, but this gives a self-centered, casual drop-in a concrete reason to be a team player.  In a similar vein, if the tank stays put and holds aggro while everyone else bolts from an encounter gone bad then you'll have fewer deaths in the group than if the tank is the first to zone and the mobs turn on the more fragile party members.  Some roleplayers might like being the star player in this role, but shared debt gives anyone a reason to agree that any one death is better for all than multiple deaths.

You're already rewarding people for good group play.  Not only will a good group of six mow through six even-con mobs faster and with less risk than if they each soloed one, but the bonus group xp means that the same group of six people will get more xp for grouping to kill those same six mobs than if each did one individually.  Shared xp debt is another game mechanic to encourage group play with a tangible reward, and the philosophy behind it seems similar to that of bonus group xp.  Please leave it in.

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^^ what he said

[Uba]

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Kiris wrote:

I know it sounds harsh, but its reality and nothing you say can out weight the subscription numbers of WoW players to EQ2 players and SoE would be smart to take notice.

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Where are all of these "facts" coming from?  So far I've heard that everyone is leaving EQ2 for WoW, that WoW has more subscribers, that everyone is quitting EQ2 because of shared debt and that people aren't grouping because of shared debt. These sound more like opinions than they are facts. I don't see any proof of this reality and have met a large group of people, this month alone, that have joined this game from WoW... so it's going both ways.

 

 

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CaptainDestiny wrote:

There is a reason why no other MMO has shared xp or ever will. It's not just.

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... or possibly because they're breaking new ground. I've not heard of the idea of shared experience debt until this game, and it scared me at first but after various tweaks I found it to be a good slap on the wrist to help us learn.

 

Is it more "just" for me to be punished with personal exp debt, if another groupmate is failing me?

 

I can see more groups utilizing zerg tactics in place of strategy once shared debt is gone. Once risk is completely gone from the game, and everyone can easily grind up to 50 in a short period of time, how many more people are going to leave the game due to boredom?

 

It works both ways... you have some that quit because they're not challenged enough, and you have some that quit because the game is arguably too hard for them.

Message Edited by Ubari on 08-18-2005 03:48 PM

[MagicWand]

Shared exps was a novel idea in the start of EQ2,to make things a little more fair for classes that tend to die alot in groups.  However that novel idea turned off ALOT of people, who were new to shared exps debt.  I remember one time, doing a guild raid way back in Nov, against some lowbie but tough mob.  Lots of mistakes, lots of deaths and lots of debt.  I mean debt in the 100%s for all, and that really hurt alot when you are in your teens.  Probably out of 20 people in that raid, 2 people remained playing EQ2, all others quit and having fun in WoW now.

 

 

I played EQ1 for years and I lived to the painful death penalities there of loses corpses, items, etc so I know a harsh penalty. 

 

And to tell you the truth, personally I could careless if they did away with shared debt or kept because I don't sweat it if I die in group or solo because frankly I don't die much.  However if people are quoting this as a main reason for quiting EQ2, then I totally want this change. 

 

EQ2 could be the best in the market, and it is the best game for me, but without players this game is as good as dead.

 

We need new players period too populate this game because I love to group with other people and NOT solo in this game, so you can stop asuming Gage ;p.  Plus I have tons of heritage quests under my belt and helped others in my guild so I know the value of team work and grouping.

[MagicWand]

Ubari, if the Devs says players' major reason for quitting eq2 is over shared debt, then I tend to believe its not a rumor. 

 

Plus WoW has over 3.5 million subscribers, EQ2 has lost about 100k (more or less) from its best of 350kish back in X-mas.  The numbers are on the net if you look hard for them.  While the hard core players have added maybe 1 or 2 accounts under their belts, keeping the number of subscribers respectable, but new players are not staying with EQ2.

 

Even without looking at the facts on the web, you can check yourself here.  Most if not all EQ2 servers are LOW population even in prime time. 

 

 

[Perot]

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Kiris wrote:

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Ubari wrote:

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Kiris wrote:

I think mmo players just like to complain to hear themselves complain, it wouldnt matter what changes are made, people are going to whine about it. 

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This kind of trolling is counter-productive to the discussion we were pleasantly having. Facts, and your opinion of the facts are one thing, but insulting people is another.

 

 

From the looks of things, it sounds as though many people agree that further ranged groupmates should not grief a group.

Message Edited by Ubari on 08-18-200502:58 AM

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You are right its not, but when im told im a "whimp" or "whiner" because the 2 hours I get a night to play I choose NOT to group because of group debt then who cares if I call those people out for what they are.  The bottom line is there is two sides to this fence, the players who want EQ1 ish tedium and grind, and those who dont.  Unfortunatly for you and the rest of your type (im guessing not hardcore, but not casual either right?) is that WoW has proven that the majority of people DO want a game where you dont spend insane amounts ofime doing stupid things like Corpse Recovery or trying to get back from shared debt.there is a reason that people play wow in droves, and its not because its a grind game, its because its fun (to those people) no hassle no bs game.  You log in, you group or solo either way progression is the same, you dont have insane amounts ofme spent on CR's or working off debt, you dont spend hours pushing stupid mindless buttons that mean nothing for crafting, you dont have to have 50 thousand different ingredients from 20 different players or spend 200 hours leveling all the crafts yourself...and you know what?  They have a game thats flourishing, they have a crafting system thats fun so EVERYONE not just crafters can enjoy it.  They have a system where the casual player can be just as happy as the hard core gamer.  The funny thing is, everyone calls WoW carebear, but the guild I was in for EQLive which was the top guild (well top 2) on the server is in wow and enjoying it right now... finished Ragnorak, BWL is next on the hit list and they said they would NEVER play another SoE EQ based game because they are afraid of the boredom of leveling,  the constant need for them to make things time sinks instead of challenging and because frankley there is too many players who dont know what they want and come here and complain.Frankly, as long as EQ2 keeps going down the road to making the game more accessable for everyone, ill be here.  The second it becomes just another grind / tedious time sink I just like the rest of the userbase who already has, will leave and the 4-5 pages of people who want eq1 with better graphics can be playing together on empty servers.I know it sounds harsh, but its reality and nothing you say can out weight the subscription numbers of WoW players to EQ2 players and SoE would be smart to take notice .

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Well, I guess you told us...must be nice playing 2 hours a night and being end-game uber...

Did it ever dawn on you that maybe some peoples' opinions are different than yours and count just as much?  Let's talk about reality for a second...re-read your posts.  Ubari is on the money...you are complaining as much as anyone else in the thread...it's true and not necessary.  WoW vs. EQ2 has been beat to death, and you added nothing new in your post.  You need to accept that some like oranges and others like apples...EQ2 takes a little more work to play and thats what makes it fun for a lot of people.   "80hrs to end-game + 20hrs at end-game  VS.  20hrs to end-game + 80hrs at end-game" is nothing more than which flavor do you like better?

The resistance to making EQ2 more like other games is totally justified.  No one wants to play the SoE EQ2-skinned version of WoW.  Why not just play WoW if thats what you want?  After trying WoW, I personally want to play something a little more involved. 

You're comments about EQlive guilds and subscription numbers totally re-enforces the "Carebear" stigma you seem to be trying to avoid.  I suggest you quit plagiarizing the WoW fanboy handbook and no one will think of you in those terms.  If all MMORPGs start conforming to the same generic formula, while battling it out for market share, it will hurt the entire genre in the long run...and everyone looses out. On to my main point: Don't blame a lack of play time or the fact that you rack up shared debt at a rate your personal play time can't handle on game mechanics.  Reality inc...you are in control of your character.  Make better decisions about groups, when to run, how to play your class, how to spend your time etc, etc.  Also, it's only a small debt.  You dont have to corpse run.  You can revive.  Are you aware that debt decays while you are logged out?  How can you imply that the end game is inaccessible to everyone, when you only play 2 hours here and there and have such a rough time at it?

Message Edited by Perotin on 08-18-2005 04:03 PM

Message Edited by Perotin on 08-18-2005 04:06 PM