Are illusionists supposed to have charm?

ClaudiustheG · 08-09-2005, 07:49 AM

Right now on test, illusionists are able to use the higher level charm spells, not just the 10th level enchanter spell. Is this how it is supposed to be, or do coercers get charm, and illusionists get the duplicate? It is important to know, since some illusionists are basing their opinions on the state of the class post- combat changes on the idea of illusionists having charm.

So, could a developer please resolve this issue? Are illusionists supposed to get charm past the 10th level enchanter spell.

Claudius

Oghi · 08-09-2005, 08:28 AM

If Illusionists *don't* get charm, I'd love to hear how SOE expects us to solo. Our nukes and such are still relatively weak -- without a charmed pet, we're medium DPS with near-zero defense.

Barakas · 08-09-2005, 05:18 PM

ClaudiustheGod wrote:

Right now on test, illusionists are able to use the higher level charm spells, not just the 10th level enchanter spell. Is this how it is supposed to be, or do coercers get charm, and illusionists get the duplicate? It is important to know, since some illusionists are basing their opinions on the state of the class post- combat changes on the idea of illusionists having charm.

So, could a developer please resolve this issue? Are illusionists supposed to get charm past the 10th level enchanter spell.

Claudius

I know it's confusing due to some test server screenshots but Illusionists do not get charm (past the level 10 Enchanter spell that is). We originally had the higher level charm spells when they first started the combat changes but that was changed when they pushed the full mage changes to the DoF beta server. At that point, the Illusionists higher level charm spells were replaced by the doppleganger spells.

Now....can Sony still change their minds and make what I just stated a falsehood.....well, I'm not going to put that past them. But currently on the DoF Beta server I do not have any high level charm spells.

As far as being able to solo....with our doppleganger I have no problem taking on yellow con no arrow mobs and blue one up arrow mobs. I can usually take on single arrow even con mobs as well. Doing anything of the sort with my Illusionist on the current live servers is pretty much an impossibility. We can effectively solo now.

Sakarab, Oasis, Illusionist 47.5

SunT · 08-09-2005, 06:40 PM

Can he tank and taunt?

Or are you draining and tanking yourself and using him as a Dot like we do now?

Barakas · 08-09-2005, 07:49 PM

SunTsu wrote:

Can he tank and taunt?

Or are you draining and tanking yourself and using him as a Dot like we do now?

Usually what I do is send the dopple in...let him get a hit or two going. Then I send in the construct, Mind Drain, Devitalizing Stare, Stun, then hit him with DoTs. Usually when the stun wears off the mob aggro's onto me so I turn on my melee damage do another round of DoTs and complete a HO or two and the mob is dead. I'm usually left with 60% or so of life and 75% or so of power.

This is probably not the most effective way to do it but that's a good thing too. The dopple has started off the fight a few times with a mez first then starts casting DDs, Power drains, and DoTs other times he just goes straight to the damaging spells without bothering to mez first. I haven't parsed any logs so I'm not the best person to ask for specifics on exactly what he does. I just know that solo'ing before with my Illusionist was a lost cause but now it's a viable alternative if I can't get into a group.

Sakarab, Oasis, Illusionist 47.4

Tue · 08-09-2005, 07:57 PM

IMHO i think illusionist shouldn't charm that is a coercers job, what we should be able to do is have illusionary pets or something to distract the mob from killing us.

SunT · 08-09-2005, 08:04 PM

Barakas wrote:

SunTsu wrote:

Can he tank and taunt?

Or are you draining and tanking yourself and using him as a Dot like we do now?

Usually what I do is send the dopple in...let him get a hit or two going. Then I send in the construct, Mind Drain, Devitalizing Stare, Stun, then hit him with DoTs. Usually when the stun wears off the mob aggro's onto me so I turn on my melee damage do another round of DoTs and complete a HO or two and the mob is dead. I'm usually left with 60% or so of life and 75% or so of power.

This is probably not the most effective way to do it but that's a good thing too. The dopple has started off the fight a few times with a mez first then starts casting DDs, Power drains, and DoTs other times he just goes straight to the damaging spells without bothering to mez first. I haven't parsed any logs so I'm not the best person to ask for specifics on exactly what he does. I just know that solo'ing before with my Illusionist was a lost cause but now it's a viable alternative if I can't get into a group.

Sakarab, Oasis, Illusionist 47.4

This sounds an awful lot like the Dopple is another dot. And we are still a tank, but now a tank with lower stats, defense and no parry.

If so this is NO FIX.

ScamprinSlippy · 08-09-2005, 08:44 PM

I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist.

Pins · 08-09-2005, 08:47 PM

ScamprinSlippy wrote:
I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist.

A Pet that can't tank for us, is a useless pet. Why waste 3-conc slots on something with mediocre, at best, dps when you can tank better for yourself with magi's shielding?

Barakas · 08-09-2005, 08:51 PM

Pinski wrote:

ScamprinSlippy wrote:

I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist.

A Pet that can't tank for us, is a useless pet. Why waste 3-conc slots on something with mediocre, at best, dps when you can tank better for yourself with magi's shielding?

I don't care if it's a DoT, a buff, a DD, or a kick in the pants....the fact of the matter is that I can now solo level 48 no arrow mobs (I'm level 47 currently) whereas I couldn't before. What else do you need?!?!

SunT · 08-09-2005, 10:20 PM

Barakas wrote:

Pinski wrote:

ScamprinSlippy wrote:

I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist.

A Pet that can't tank for us, is a useless pet. Why waste 3-conc slots on something with mediocre, at best, dps when you can tank better for yourself with magi's shielding?

I don't care if it's a DoT, a buff, a DD, or a kick in the pants....the fact of the matter is that I can now solo level 48 no arrow mobs (I'm level 47 currently) whereas I couldn't before. What else do you need?!?!

How about a fixed class, not some used bandage.

Oghi · 08-09-2005, 10:33 PM

It sounds like, at a minimum, they need to work on the Doppleganger's spell list. Mezz should go. We're never going to rely on a pet for CC, and any mezzes it does cast could be better replaced with a nuke or DoT, or even a stun. Whether we're in a group, raid or solo, I can't imagine we want any reaction from our attack commands other than attack spells.

I like the idea of the Doppelganger, as it's a reasonably fitting and interesting way for an illusionist to do damage. It needs to work correctly, though.

ClaudiustheG · 08-10-2005, 01:52 AM

Hey, thanks for posting all this info. I was buzzing with curiosity as to how the duplicate was going to work.

I agree that it shouldn't be casting mez or roots. I can't think of any situation in which that would be helpfull. DD, DoT, stun, power drain, stifle - those are all fine.

As for whether this or charm is better - either is fine as long as they balance them out. I was using the 10th level charm spell on test, and you certainly can have your charmed pet tank, which is very very useful. However, if the duplicate ends up being equally effective for soloing, then I'm just as happy either way.

Claudius

ke'la · 08-10-2005, 03:38 AM

IMHO i think illusionist shouldn't charm that is a coercers job, what we should be able to do is have illusionary pets or something to distract the mob from killing us.

I think that is what is going in with this Doubleganner Spell line, and I agree an Illusionist uses Illusions to "confuse and befuttle the enemy" (I can't think of anything more confusing then seeing one Mage turn into two) while a Corrorser "Dominates others minds..." (sounds alot like taking over some poor creatures mind for your own means to me). Also think about this Summoners have more then one type of "Pet" depending on the siduation sometimes its a Tank sometimes its a Mage type. Are you guys saying that when a Summoner pulls out its caster Pet that it really is not a Pet but a DoT? Just cause a Pet does not Tank does not make it "Just a DoT" a DoT dies when the MoB its cast on Dies from what I have read this is not the case with the Doubleganner it is persistant until it dies or the spell's Timer runs out... that is the definition of a Pet, just cause its not a Mini-Guardian does not mean its not a good Pet.

08-09-2005, 08:28 AM	#2
Oghi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 331	If Illusionists don't get charm, I'd love to hear how SOE expects us to solo. Our nukes and such are still relatively weak -- without a charmed pet, we're medium DPS with near-zero defense. __________________ Oghier Sleepytoes, Dwarf Bartender Aramur, Illusionist Arcane Masters, Antonia Bayle

08-09-2005, 05:18 PM	#3
Barakas Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 33	ClaudiustheGod wrote: Right now on test, illusionists are able to use the higher level charm spells, not just the 10th level enchanter spell. Is this how it is supposed to be, or do coercers get charm, and illusionists get the duplicate? It is important to know, since some illusionists are basing their opinions on the state of the class post- combat changes on the idea of illusionists having charm. So, could a developer please resolve this issue? Are illusionists supposed to get charm past the 10th level enchanter spell. Claudius I know it's confusing due to some test server screenshots but Illusionists do not get charm (past the level 10 Enchanter spell that is). We originally had the higher level charm spells when they first started the combat changes but that was changed when they pushed the full mage changes to the DoF beta server. At that point, the Illusionists higher level charm spells were replaced by the doppleganger spells. Now....can Sony still change their minds and make what I just stated a falsehood.....well, I'm not going to put that past them. But currently on the DoF Beta server I do not have any high level charm spells. As far as being able to solo....with our doppleganger I have no problem taking on yellow con no arrow mobs and blue one up arrow mobs. I can usually take on single arrow even con mobs as well. Doing anything of the sort with my Illusionist on the current live servers is pretty much an impossibility. We can effectively solo now. Sakarab, Oasis, Illusionist 47.5

08-09-2005, 06:40 PM	#4
SunT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 821	Can he tank and taunt? Or are you draining and tanking yourself and using him as a Dot like we do now? __________________ Retired Roamin Nome, 70 Illusionist/60Jeweler Crack Bot, Nektulos Argyll, 60 Paladin / Heresy, 62 Defiler

08-09-2005, 07:49 PM	#5
Barakas Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 33	SunTsu wrote: Can he tank and taunt? Or are you draining and tanking yourself and using him as a Dot like we do now? Usually what I do is send the dopple in...let him get a hit or two going. Then I send in the construct, Mind Drain, Devitalizing Stare, Stun, then hit him with DoTs. Usually when the stun wears off the mob aggro's onto me so I turn on my melee damage do another round of DoTs and complete a HO or two and the mob is dead. I'm usually left with 60% or so of life and 75% or so of power. This is probably not the most effective way to do it but that's a good thing too. The dopple has started off the fight a few times with a mez first then starts casting DDs, Power drains, and DoTs other times he just goes straight to the damaging spells without bothering to mez first. I haven't parsed any logs so I'm not the best person to ask for specifics on exactly what he does. I just know that solo'ing before with my Illusionist was a lost cause but now it's a viable alternative if I can't get into a group. Sakarab, Oasis, Illusionist 47.4

08-09-2005, 07:57 PM	#6
Tue Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	IMHO i think illusionist shouldn't charm that is a coercers job, what we should be able to do is have illusionary pets or something to distract the mob from killing us. __________________ TueHi 54 Illusionist 41 alchemist

08-09-2005, 07:49 AM	#1
ClaudiustheG Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	Right now on test, illusionists are able to use the higher level charm spells, not just the 10th level enchanter spell. Is this how it is supposed to be, or do coercers get charm, and illusionists get the duplicate? It is important to know, since some illusionists are basing their opinions on the state of the class post- combat changes on the idea of illusionists having charm. So, could a developer please resolve this issue? Are illusionists supposed to get charm past the 10th level enchanter spell. Claudius

08-09-2005, 08:04 PM	#7
SunT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 821	Barakas wrote: SunTsu wrote: Can he tank and taunt? Or are you draining and tanking yourself and using him as a Dot like we do now? Usually what I do is send the dopple in...let him get a hit or two going. Then I send in the construct, Mind Drain, Devitalizing Stare, Stun, then hit him with DoTs. Usually when the stun wears off the mob aggro's onto me so I turn on my melee damage do another round of DoTs and complete a HO or two and the mob is dead. I'm usually left with 60% or so of life and 75% or so of power. This is probably not the most effective way to do it but that's a good thing too. The dopple has started off the fight a few times with a mez first then starts casting DDs, Power drains, and DoTs other times he just goes straight to the damaging spells without bothering to mez first. I haven't parsed any logs so I'm not the best person to ask for specifics on exactly what he does. I just know that solo'ing before with my Illusionist was a lost cause but now it's a viable alternative if I can't get into a group. Sakarab, Oasis, Illusionist 47.4 This sounds an awful lot like the Dopple is another dot. And we are still a tank, but now a tank with lower stats, defense and no parry. If so this is NO FIX. __________________ Retired Roamin Nome, 70 Illusionist/60Jeweler Crack Bot, Nektulos Argyll, 60 Paladin / Heresy, 62 Defiler

08-09-2005, 08:44 PM	#8
ScamprinSlippy Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 108	I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist.

08-09-2005, 08:47 PM	#9
Pins General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,040	ScamprinSlippy wrote: I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist. A Pet that can't tank for us, is a useless pet. Why waste 3-conc slots on something with mediocre, at best, dps when you can tank better for yourself with magi's shielding? __________________ Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

08-09-2005, 08:51 PM	#10
Barakas Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 33	Pinski wrote: ScamprinSlippy wrote: I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist. A Pet that can't tank for us, is a useless pet. Why waste 3-conc slots on something with mediocre, at best, dps when you can tank better for yourself with magi's shielding? I don't care if it's a DoT, a buff, a DD, or a kick in the pants....the fact of the matter is that I can now solo level 48 no arrow mobs (I'm level 47 currently) whereas I couldn't before. What else do you need?!?!

08-09-2005, 10:20 PM	#11
SunT Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 821	Barakas wrote: Pinski wrote: ScamprinSlippy wrote: I think its sounds great, sounds like a fitting pet for an illusionist. A Pet that can't tank for us, is a useless pet. Why waste 3-conc slots on something with mediocre, at best, dps when you can tank better for yourself with magi's shielding? I don't care if it's a DoT, a buff, a DD, or a kick in the pants....the fact of the matter is that I can now solo level 48 no arrow mobs (I'm level 47 currently) whereas I couldn't before. What else do you need?!?! How about a fixed class, not some used bandage. __________________ Retired Roamin Nome, 70 Illusionist/60Jeweler Crack Bot, Nektulos Argyll, 60 Paladin / Heresy, 62 Defiler

08-09-2005, 10:33 PM	#12
Oghi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 331	It sounds like, at a minimum, they need to work on the Doppleganger's spell list. Mezz should go. We're never going to rely on a pet for CC, and any mezzes it does cast could be better replaced with a nuke or DoT, or even a stun. Whether we're in a group, raid or solo, I can't imagine we want any reaction from our attack commands other than attack spells. I like the idea of the Doppelganger, as it's a reasonably fitting and interesting way for an illusionist to do damage. It needs to work correctly, though. __________________ Oghier Sleepytoes, Dwarf Bartender Aramur, Illusionist Arcane Masters, Antonia Bayle

08-10-2005, 01:52 AM	#13
ClaudiustheG Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	Hey, thanks for posting all this info. I was buzzing with curiosity as to how the duplicate was going to work. I agree that it shouldn't be casting mez or roots. I can't think of any situation in which that would be helpfull. DD, DoT, stun, power drain, stifle - those are all fine. As for whether this or charm is better - either is fine as long as they balance them out. I was using the 10th level charm spell on test, and you certainly can have your charmed pet tank, which is very very useful. However, if the duplicate ends up being equally effective for soloing, then I'm just as happy either way. Claudius

08-10-2005, 03:38 AM	#14
ke'la Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5,445	IMHO i think illusionist shouldn't charm that is a coercers job, what we should be able to do is have illusionary pets or something to distract the mob from killing us. I think that is what is going in with this Doubleganner Spell line, and I agree an Illusionist uses Illusions to "confuse and befuttle the enemy" (I can't think of anything more confusing then seeing one Mage turn into two) while a Corrorser "Dominates others minds..." (sounds alot like taking over some poor creatures mind for your own means to me). Also think about this Summoners have more then one type of "Pet" depending on the siduation sometimes its a Tank sometimes its a Mage type. Are you guys saying that when a Summoner pulls out its caster Pet that it really is not a Pet but a DoT? Just cause a Pet does not Tank does not make it "Just a DoT" a DoT dies when the MoB its cast on Dies from what I have read this is not the case with the Doubleganner it is persistant until it dies or the spell's Timer runs out... that is the definition of a Pet, just cause its not a Mini-Guardian does not mean its not a good Pet. __________________