DEVS: The forced class separation of Troubadors and Dirges is idiotic!

MorDeca · 08-07-2005, 05:07 AM

Since a moderator has deemed it necessary to delete a post of mine regarding SOEs lack of concern for subscription loss due to this idiotic change in the base archetype selection of many of us Trobadors and Dirges, I bring it here. Not only that, but it reinforces my opinion that they will not make any changes to the forced separation they are imposing on us. As a paying subscriber, a paying tester, and a concerned player, I am extremely disapointed in the direction that SOE is taking with regards to the Bard class. Since we have started playing this game, we have been of the understanding that Troubadors were a buffing class and Dirges were a DPS/Debuffing class. Now, we are being told that Troubadors are for mages, Dirges are for melee. This idea should not be allowed into the live game for it will fundamentally alter many players chosen classes. You might as well make Wardens have reactives, and Templars have wards. It is summarilly the same. I urge, no, I beg, the developers to rethink this idea as it will most likely lead to many people quiting either the game, or simply their chosen characters. Which, as I previously stated in my removed post, SOE seems to have no regard for. A loss of 1% of it's subscription base, a meer 5000 subscriptions, is most likely an acceptable loss aka churn rate for this so-called necessary rebalancing. Please re-think this forced separation or I feel that come September 9th, the Troubador class may disappear from Norrath.

sundrop · 08-07-2005, 05:19 AM

The one star bandit has [Removed for Content] your post SMILEY

Good post, however you dont have like 10 accounts, so they dont hear you SMILEY

JSTatumUSArmy · 08-07-2005, 05:39 AM

Good Post If they nurf Troubadors any more I'm going to start executing little kittens.

Karamonde · 08-07-2005, 07:38 AM

i hope and im sure the devs are aware that trouvadours are not happy with the change , agian im not a daoc buff bot for mage groups : x

Ishnar · 08-07-2005, 09:37 AM

in before the lock.

Ishnar

Trabbart · 08-07-2005, 12:29 PM

This is basically criminal. I chose a class based on my playing style and now it is changed to a class i would never have chosen and dont want to play.

I guess you are going to have to respec all characters somehow. I do not see myself playing this new class that coincidentally carries the name Troubadour.

I am willing to believe for now that this is all on TEST and that these changes will never see the day of light on LIFE.

BUT.....

Making a new character and levelling it to 50 is not an option as far as i am concerned. So if something is not done i guess some new (or even old) MMORPGs are around the corner for me cos a company that is so disrespectfull and untrustworthy to its customers is a waste of time and energy to be involved with.

Nevari · 08-07-2005, 01:26 PM

Trabbart wrote:

This is basically criminal. I chose a class based on my playing style and now it is changed to a class i would never have chosen and dont want to play.

I guess you are going to have to respec all characters somehow. I do not see myself playing this new class that coincidentally carries the name Troubadour.

That pretty much sums it up for me :smileysad: Wake up tomorrow and you are a different person... I got love my Elulee and played her for a long time by now. And now poof? Kinda feels like it :smileysad: That's not the way to go I'm sorry. Please take the feedback very very serious.

Niburr · 08-07-2005, 05:57 PM

Can't say I agree with you, But I understand where you're coming since you're a Troubador.

You have to realize that you've been playing a class that was so much better than its evil counterpart that they had to restore some kind of balance for your Dirge brothers and sisters.

Dirges have been playing second fiddle to Troubadors since launch and I'm glad to see they are evening the playing field. Despite what feels like a nerf to you I'm sure you will still be in great demand do to your buffs to healers and casters. (Duststorm etc.)

[Edit]

Im sure they would be interested in hearing more feedback on what should be changed besides, "Omg, I cant buff melee anymore!". Since Dirge are the DPS, "damage" class does it not make sense that they would buff the DPS/melee classes while you buff the buffing/"healer" classes?

[Disclaimer: I do not play a Dirge or Troubador, but have friends of both classes. ]

Message Edited by Niburr on 08-07-2005 07:09 AM

MrFlob · 08-07-2005, 05:58 PM

Hmm... Cant they just split you two like Warlock / Wiz? Other class would get single target buffs that rise stats nicely and other would get group buffs that rise stats ok...

Also your dmg spells and debuffs could be divided same way...

Zandof · 08-07-2005, 07:02 PM

Are you even on the testing server? You have no idea what it plays like. Look at the top of the forum before you post and wonder why it got deleted. I don't care if you don't have time to play on test, this isn't the forum for this... I come here to read what people have experienced, not what you expect. Go find another section.

Rene · 08-07-2005, 07:26 PM

In the second paragraph he seems to indicate that he is a "Paying Tester"... So that might answer the question you never really asked and just assumed.

Marri · 08-07-2005, 07:41 PM

Niburr wrote:

[Edit]

Im sure they would be interested in hearing more feedback on what should be changed besides, "Omg, I cant buff melee anymore!". Since Dirge are the DPS, "damage" class does it not make sense that they would buff the DPS/melee classes while you buff the buffing/"healer" classes?

Message Edited by Niburr on 08-07-2005 07:09 AM

wouldn't it make more sense by this logic to have dirges buff mages/scouts and troubs buff fighters/preists... I could go for that.. SMILEY

doubt they would tho.

Amaryllia · 08-08-2005, 12:37 AM

I'd go for any combo as long as both classes are equally useful, and together they benefit 100% of the other archetypes.

Unfortunately as it stands now it looks like I may have to roll a troub to help my guild out since 'all' of the troubadors are quitting and they'll be in extreme demand. :/

I did make a post in a different thread pointing out the ways Troubadors are still quite good at buffing melee (STA, haste) and especially a mixed group, where they can also boost mages/healers/spellcasters of any kind (SKs, themselves, dirges).

Message Edited by Amaryllia on 08-07-2005 01:39 PM

Tandy · 08-08-2005, 01:10 AM

The new buff changes are limiting certain buffs from even affecting dirges/troubadors. THAT is one of the problems. Even with a troub and a dirge in the same group they dont benifit from some of their own class buffs. How is that fair in any possible way? Troubs might buff the casters but nicely but they cant help themselves out as is. This really needs looked at and changed before going to live servers.

Croa · 08-08-2005, 02:46 AM

This would apply to everyone not just bards but.. Personally I think they should allow at some point after these changes a one time class switch option to allow us to switch to another class in our primary grouping. So a templar could switch to any priest type (good side, in this case). Why? because they are drastically switching some class types or completely fixing some in which case some of us might have played a different class. I have a lvl50 warden. Reading the class descriptions I would have rather been a Fury, but in reality Furies didn't live up to what I was wanting so I went with Warden and had tons of fun. I was hoping Furies would be a form of "Nature Mage" of sorts, which more potent damage than other priests, but with less healing capability as the others of course. Priest changes aren't done yet so it remains to be see what happens. Obviously I don't expect class changing options to happen, but it's just a thought. I would have said simply a direct class switch (warden to fury, wizard to warlock, etc), but that's not fair to all of the good/evil only classes. I'll still likely be playing anyway and in fact I already have a lvl20 fury in the works. Back to the topic at hand. I do feel the pain as the same thing is happening to Warlock. They seem to be turning into AOE masters, but that's not why I created one. Mine's only lvl32, but he's shelved for now until the changes are done. I think Dirges could use a good buffing up and maybe that may make Troubadours seem like they are getting the bad end of the stick, but maybe it won't be as bad as it sounds in the end.

Sile · 08-08-2005, 03:06 AM

Doesn't sound too promising to me, but we'll see.

Calman · 08-08-2005, 03:50 AM

I agree with Mordecaio on this. The way things are going with troubador I'm gutted. I expected changes but what they doing to us is changing the role of a class. Thats just not right. If I knew this was what troubadors were gonna be no way I would play one. If this goes live and probably will I think troubadors will be a very rare class. I can see it now pow regen up health regen up stuck 10m within mage/priest grp in raid doing nothing, but throwing the odd interupt. ah wait our grp interupt has 5m range so probably not close enough for that. Not what I really planned for my troubador. SMILEY

OdinsLegi · 08-08-2005, 06:58 AM

Message Edited by OdinsLegion on 11-02-2005 01:48 AM

L1m · 08-08-2005, 11:54 AM

so ...wah? i swear i went dirge(alt) for debuffs o_O . And anyway the enchanter line is more spell caster based than a troub so ....wont that screw up the balance of those classes? Great another charecter i found playing is getting screwed over.... bye bye monk bye bye dirge.

EvilIguana9 · 08-08-2005, 12:41 PM

Bards = Area affect songs that help the party and hinder the opponents Dirges = More focus on harming the enemy. Troub = More focus on strengthening the party. That's how I see it. That's how it was marketted. That's how it should stay. Making one a caster buffer and the other a melee buffer just doesn't make sense to me.

Keel · 08-08-2005, 09:04 PM

Amaryllia wrote:

I'd go for any combo as long as both classes are equally useful, and together they benefit 100% of the other archetypes.

Unfortunately as it stands now it looks like I may have to roll a troub to help my guild out since 'all' of the troubadors are quitting and they'll be in extreme demand. :/

I did make a post in a different thread pointing out the ways Troubadors are still quite good at buffing melee (STA, haste) and especially a mixed group, where they can also boost mages/healers/spellcasters of any kind (SKs, themselves, dirges).

Message Edited by Amaryllia on 08-07-2005 01:39 PM

I've never quite understood why they designed the game with two neutral subclasses for each archtype. I understand having two subclasses, one good and one evil, for the classes that have a good only or evil only branch. But for neutral, why not just have one class, like Bard, but not have the split subclasses. Just merge the two, keep the best parts of each one, and let the player decide which buffing/debuffing songs to load up based on the current group needs.

Nevari · 08-08-2005, 09:37 PM

Keelis wrote:

Amaryllia wrote:

I'd go for any combo as long as both classes are equally useful, and together they benefit 100% of the other archetypes.

Unfortunately as it stands now it looks like I may have to roll a troub to help my guild out since 'all' of the troubadors are quitting and they'll be in extreme demand. :/

I did make a post in a different thread pointing out the ways Troubadors are still quite good at buffing melee (STA, haste) and especially a mixed group, where they can also boost mages/healers/spellcasters of any kind (SKs, themselves, dirges).

Message Edited by Amaryllia on 08-07-2005 01:39 PM

I've never quite understood why they designed the game with two neutral subclasses for each archtype. I understand having two subclasses, one good and one evil, for the classes that have a good only or evil only branch. But for neutral, why not just have one class, like Bard, but not have the split subclasses. Just merge the two, keep the best parts of each one, and let the player decide which buffing/debuffing songs to load up based on the current group needs.

You can look at it like this. Go from the archetype to the class which branches in two subclasses. Each subclass is in a way doing the same in a opposite way. For example Guardian - defensive, while Berserker - offensive. Troubador - defensive, Dirge - offensive. And so on. Now this is at least for the bard class changed to caster and melee which none of us did sign up in the first place.

Collaud · 08-08-2005, 11:51 PM

I can't believe SOE is being this stupid. Minor bugs and imbalances are expected in MMORPGs, but completely overhauling a combat system, changing the roles of classes, etc. is ridiculous... and this is the 2nd straight game they've done it in. Nice reputation you're building, SOE.

Muskrat Merciless · 08-09-2005, 12:05 AM

Niburr wrote:

You have to realize that you've been playing a class that was so much better than its evil counterpart that they had to restore some kind of balance for your Dirge brothers and sisters.

Niburr, I think you severely misunderstand our response to these changes. Yes, I agree that Dirges are due for a long needed improvement to their class, and I am glad to see something is finally happening. For this reason, I make a point of never complaining about the changes with my Dirge friends.

The issue Troubadors are taking up is the concept "Troubadors are for Mages & Priests - Dirges are for Scouts & Fighers." My expectations are that both Troubs and Dirges need songs that benefit all groups differently, but as balanced* for all groups as possible. Unfortunately Sony has changed their original design for these classes so it no longer meets the playstyle desired by the people playing them.

Keel · 08-09-2005, 01:08 AM

Niburr wrote:

You have to realize that you've been playing a class that was so much better than its evil counterpart that they had to restore some kind of balance for your Dirge brothers and sisters.

[Disclaimer: I do not play a Dirge or Troubador, but have friends of both classes. ]

Message Edited by Niburr on 08-07-2005 07:09 AM

Neither subclass is inherently evil or good (though you can choose to play your character however you wish), so there is no 'evil counterpart'. A Bard in either city can choose either subclass.

Keel · 08-09-2005, 02:38 AM

Nevarion wrote:

You can look at it like this. Go from the archetype to the class which branches in two subclasses. Each subclass is in a way doing the same in a opposite way. For example Guardian - defensive, while Berserker - offensive. Troubador - defensive, Dirge - offensive. And so on.
Now this is at least for the bard class changed to caster and melee which none of us did sign up in the first place.

But that makes even less sense to me. Before one was defensive centric and the other offense centric. Now one buffs melee types and the other buffs only caster types? And neither buffs Bard types?

The good/evil split makes sense for some classes, but not all. A clear example comes from Crusaders. Paladins have traditionally been good. In fact, in AD&D they could only be Lawful Good and if they ever did anything not Lawful Good they were stripped of their Paladin status and became a Fighter. The Anti-Paladin (aka Shadow Knight) was created to oppose the awful goodness of the Paladin. So, I see the purpose of having a Good Crusader and an Evil Crusader. The same structure makes sense for a lot of the other classes/subclasses in EQ2. Templar/Inquisitor, Necromancer/Conjurer, Assassin/Ranger (though I won't pretend to understand why Assassins don't get to assassinate) and so on.

But with the Neutral classes? What is there to oppose? And look at all the controversy the planned changes to Troubadour is stirring up. It sounds like Troubadours are getting spanked really hard with a really big nerf stick, and it sounds like Dirges aren't all that happy either.

Since the combat revamp is going to completely redefine Troubadours and Dirges anyway, I think it would make a lot more sense to just merge the two Bard subclasses into one class, otherwise they will probably have to redo them by Christmas.

Message Edited by Keelis on 08-08-2005 03:39 PM

Cygnu · 08-10-2005, 01:44 PM

EvilIguana966 wrote:
Bards = Area affect songs that help the party and hinder the opponents

Dirges = More focus on harming the enemy.

Troub = More focus on strengthening the party.

That's how I see it. That's how it was marketted. That's how it should stay. Making one a caster buffer and the other a melee buffer just doesn't make sense to me.

This post is spot on!

I understand why they are making changes to the combat system. I can see why some areas need tweaking. But I was expecting the strenght of some classes to be adjusted, some skills to be altered and NPCs to be amended. What I didn't expect was classes to be completely redefined :smileymad:

The current quests for helping you to decide which sub classe to take are uninformative at best and so people spend a lot of time researching and reading to make sure they pick a class that will suit them. After all they are going to spend a LOT of time with this character. If a character doesn't feel right for me I re-roll.

Well I finally found my character in a Troubadour. I liked the role in groups and especially in raids. I have been playing my Troubadour for 9 months now and I love it. I am not even going to post the playtime on this character. It is embarrisingly high.

And now I fnd out that the roles and abilities of the Troubadour are being completely redefined! [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is that all about?

I am not very happy. 9 months to get where I am and I am not starting again. If the new role doesn't suit then thats it for me.

Mull · 08-10-2005, 04:34 PM

You dont have to play test to know this is a bad idea. The problem here, IMO, is there are too many classes to make each one truly different in the role they bring to a group And have that roll be meaningful. Bards should buff all classes in the group. Spliting it up between Bard & Dirge is like saying Druids can heal casters only and clerics can heal melee only.....just for the sake of making them have different roles. Different is good ... but there are many ways to make classes different without having to have a completely different role.

Now... fixing problems and tweeking things is always expected in a mmorg. What is not expected nor should EVER be done is to completely change the roll of a class 9 months into a released game. THE main role of a Troubador right now is to buff the defense/stats of the Tank/s. Thats why you want one in your group/raid. Yep...with the current system when you add Troub buffs with say Guardian self buffs and a sprinking of other buffs you have a super tank. That needs to be "TWEEKED" ie...adjusted....not smacked with the nerf bat till unrecognizable.

I would not complain at all if the merged the two bard classes ...gave us the good of both ... limited the defense buffing so as to not be overpowered. OR....give both classes the buffs ... give the troub an edg in buffing and the Dirge an edge in debuffing/dps. Now whats wrong with that????

Rift lv 50 Troubador Kithcore

rac · 08-10-2005, 08:20 PM

these changes simply destroy the class of a troubardour...-less damage-buffs which only support ither not even teh troubardour himselfi didn´t spend a lot of time and effort to be a illu in medium armor who deals much less damage...leave the troubardour as it is!! PLEASE!

Imri · 08-10-2005, 08:39 PM

MorDecaio wrote: You might as well make Wardens have reactives, and Templars have wards. It is summarilly the same.

I wasn't sure or not if I should tell you thye did give templars a ward. It's pretty puny, but I suppose it's meant to compensate for the major hit to their healing abilities they are taking so far. All that aside, I do understand your pain. I think this is an attempt by SOe to remove the key factor in creating invulnerable tanks. I just don't know if this is the righ path. I think you definately need to have decent stat buffs for all stats, and if you get some extras that enhance mages more than melees, I think you will be ok. As I have seen so far you don't have that quite yet. Hopefully it changes by the time combat changes go live.

08-07-2005, 05:19 AM	#2
sundrop Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 128	The one star bandit has [Removed for Content] your post Good post, however you dont have like 10 accounts, so they dont hear you

08-07-2005, 01:26 PM	#7
Nevari Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 92	Trabbart wrote: This is basically criminal. I chose a class based on my playing style and now it is changed to a class i would never have chosen and dont want to play. I guess you are going to have to respec all characters somehow. I do not see myself playing this new class that coincidentally carries the name Troubadour. That pretty much sums it up for me :smileysad: Wake up tomorrow and you are a different person... I got love my Elulee and played her for a long time by now. And now poof? Kinda feels like it :smileysad: That's not the way to go I'm sorry. Please take the feedback very very serious. __________________

08-07-2005, 05:57 PM	#8
Niburr Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 18	Can't say I agree with you, But I understand where you're coming since you're a Troubador. You have to realize that you've been playing a class that was so much better than its evil counterpart that they had to restore some kind of balance for your Dirge brothers and sisters. Dirges have been playing second fiddle to Troubadors since launch and I'm glad to see they are evening the playing field. Despite what feels like a nerf to you I'm sure you will still be in great demand do to your buffs to healers and casters. (Duststorm etc.) [Edit] Im sure they would be interested in hearing more feedback on what should be changed besides, "Omg, I cant buff melee anymore!". Since Dirge are the DPS, "damage" class does it not make sense that they would buff the DPS/melee classes while you buff the buffing/"healer" classes? [Disclaimer: I do not play a Dirge or Troubador, but have friends of both classes. ] Message Edited by Niburr on 08-07-2005 07:09 AM __________________

08-07-2005, 07:26 PM	#11
Rene Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 25	In the second paragraph he seems to indicate that he is a "Paying Tester"... So that might answer the question you never really asked and just assumed. __________________ Rene First 70 Tailor of Mistmore Proud Member of New Outriders

08-07-2005, 07:41 PM	#12
Marri Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 25	Niburr wrote: [Edit] Im sure they would be interested in hearing more feedback on what should be changed besides, "Omg, I cant buff melee anymore!". Since Dirge are the DPS, "damage" class does it not make sense that they would buff the DPS/melee classes while you buff the buffing/"healer" classes? Message Edited by Niburr on 08-07-2005 07:09 AM wouldn't it make more sense by this logic to have dirges buff mages/scouts and troubs buff fighters/preists... I could go for that.. doubt they would tho.

08-07-2005, 05:07 AM	#1
MorDeca General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25	Since a moderator has deemed it necessary to delete a post of mine regarding SOEs lack of concern for subscription loss due to this idiotic change in the base archetype selection of many of us Trobadors and Dirges, I bring it here. Not only that, but it reinforces my opinion that they will not make any changes to the forced separation they are imposing on us. As a paying subscriber, a paying tester, and a concerned player, I am extremely disapointed in the direction that SOE is taking with regards to the Bard class. Since we have started playing this game, we have been of the understanding that Troubadors were a buffing class and Dirges were a DPS/Debuffing class. Now, we are being told that Troubadors are for mages, Dirges are for melee. This idea should not be allowed into the live game for it will fundamentally alter many players chosen classes. You might as well make Wardens have reactives, and Templars have wards. It is summarilly the same. I urge, no, I beg, the developers to rethink this idea as it will most likely lead to many people quiting either the game, or simply their chosen characters. Which, as I previously stated in my removed post, SOE seems to have no regard for. A loss of 1% of it's subscription base, a meer 5000 subscriptions, is most likely an acceptable loss aka churn rate for this so-called necessary rebalancing. Please re-think this forced separation or I feel that come September 9th, the Troubador class may disappear from Norrath.

08-07-2005, 05:39 AM	#3
JSTatumUSArmy Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2	Good Post If they nurf Troubadors any more I'm going to start executing little kittens.

08-07-2005, 07:38 AM	#4
Karamonde Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 57	i hope and im sure the devs are aware that trouvadours are not happy with the change , agian im not a daoc buff bot for mage groups : x

08-07-2005, 09:37 AM	#5
Ishnar Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 423	in before the lock. Ishnar

08-07-2005, 12:29 PM	#6
Trabbart Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 152	This is basically criminal. I chose a class based on my playing style and now it is changed to a class i would never have chosen and dont want to play. I guess you are going to have to respec all characters somehow. I do not see myself playing this new class that coincidentally carries the name Troubadour. I am willing to believe for now that this is all on TEST and that these changes will never see the day of light on LIFE. BUT..... Making a new character and levelling it to 50 is not an option as far as i am concerned. So if something is not done i guess some new (or even old) MMORPGs are around the corner for me cos a company that is so disrespectfull and untrustworthy to its customers is a waste of time and energy to be involved with.

08-07-2005, 05:58 PM	#9
MrFlob Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	Hmm... Cant they just split you two like Warlock / Wiz? Other class would get single target buffs that rise stats nicely and other would get group buffs that rise stats ok... Also your dmg spells and debuffs could be divided same way...

08-07-2005, 07:02 PM	#10
Zandof Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 24	Are you even on the testing server? You have no idea what it plays like. Look at the top of the forum before you post and wonder why it got deleted. I don't care if you don't have time to play on test, this isn't the forum for this... I come here to read what people have experienced, not what you expect. Go find another section.

08-08-2005, 12:37 AM	#13
Amaryllia Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	I'd go for any combo as long as both classes are equally useful, and together they benefit 100% of the other archetypes. Unfortunately as it stands now it looks like I may have to roll a troub to help my guild out since 'all' of the troubadors are quitting and they'll be in extreme demand. :/ I did make a post in a different thread pointing out the ways Troubadors are still quite good at buffing melee (STA, haste) and especially a mixed group, where they can also boost mages/healers/spellcasters of any kind (SKs, themselves, dirges). Message Edited by Amaryllia on 08-07-2005 01:39 PM

08-08-2005, 01:10 AM	#14
Tandy Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 284	The new buff changes are limiting certain buffs from even affecting dirges/troubadors. THAT is one of the problems. Even with a troub and a dirge in the same group they dont benifit from some of their own class buffs. How is that fair in any possible way? Troubs might buff the casters but nicely but they cant help themselves out as is. This really needs looked at and changed before going to live servers. __________________

08-08-2005, 02:46 AM	#15
Croa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 79	This would apply to everyone not just bards but.. Personally I think they should allow at some point after these changes a one time class switch option to allow us to switch to another class in our primary grouping. So a templar could switch to any priest type (good side, in this case). Why? because they are drastically switching some class types or completely fixing some in which case some of us might have played a different class. I have a lvl50 warden. Reading the class descriptions I would have rather been a Fury, but in reality Furies didn't live up to what I was wanting so I went with Warden and had tons of fun. I was hoping Furies would be a form of "Nature Mage" of sorts, which more potent damage than other priests, but with less healing capability as the others of course. Priest changes aren't done yet so it remains to be see what happens. Obviously I don't expect class changing options to happen, but it's just a thought. I would have said simply a direct class switch (warden to fury, wizard to warlock, etc), but that's not fair to all of the good/evil only classes. I'll still likely be playing anyway and in fact I already have a lvl20 fury in the works. Back to the topic at hand. I do feel the pain as the same thing is happening to Warlock. They seem to be turning into AOE masters, but that's not why I created one. Mine's only lvl32, but he's shelved for now until the changes are done. I think Dirges could use a good buffing up and maybe that may make Troubadours seem like they are getting the bad end of the stick, but maybe it won't be as bad as it sounds in the end.

08-08-2005, 03:06 AM	#16
Sile Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 33	Doesn't sound too promising to me, but we'll see. __________________ Scavy lvl 70 Gnomish Troubador lvl 70 Provisioner "Gnome Supremecy!" Second Dawn

08-08-2005, 03:50 AM	#17
Calman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	I agree with Mordecaio on this. The way things are going with troubador I'm gutted. I expected changes but what they doing to us is changing the role of a class. Thats just not right. If I knew this was what troubadors were gonna be no way I would play one. If this goes live and probably will I think troubadors will be a very rare class. I can see it now pow regen up health regen up stuck 10m within mage/priest grp in raid doing nothing, but throwing the odd interupt. ah wait our grp interupt has 5m range so probably not close enough for that. Not what I really planned for my troubador.

08-08-2005, 06:58 AM	#18
OdinsLegi Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 6	Message Edited by OdinsLegion on 11-02-2005 01:48 AM __________________

08-08-2005, 11:54 AM	#19
L1m Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: England Posts: 31	so ...wah? i swear i went dirge(alt) for debuffs o_O . And anyway the enchanter line is more spell caster based than a troub so ....wont that screw up the balance of those classes? Great another charecter i found playing is getting screwed over.... bye bye monk bye bye dirge. __________________ Dark Elf Monk: Unrest

08-08-2005, 12:41 PM	#20
EvilIguana9 General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 477	Bards = Area affect songs that help the party and hinder the opponents Dirges = More focus on harming the enemy. Troub = More focus on strengthening the party. That's how I see it. That's how it was marketted. That's how it should stay. Making one a caster buffer and the other a melee buffer just doesn't make sense to me.

08-08-2005, 09:04 PM	#21
Keel Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 64	Amaryllia wrote: I'd go for any combo as long as both classes are equally useful, and together they benefit 100% of the other archetypes. Unfortunately as it stands now it looks like I may have to roll a troub to help my guild out since 'all' of the troubadors are quitting and they'll be in extreme demand. :/ I did make a post in a different thread pointing out the ways Troubadors are still quite good at buffing melee (STA, haste) and especially a mixed group, where they can also boost mages/healers/spellcasters of any kind (SKs, themselves, dirges). Message Edited by Amaryllia on 08-07-2005 01:39 PM I've never quite understood why they designed the game with two neutral subclasses for each archtype. I understand having two subclasses, one good and one evil, for the classes that have a good only or evil only branch. But for neutral, why not just have one class, like Bard, but not have the split subclasses. Just merge the two, keep the best parts of each one, and let the player decide which buffing/debuffing songs to load up based on the current group needs. __________________ __________________________________________________ _____ Blackguard: We made some early assumptions when creating the items, population, and other content for EverQuest II that haven't served the game as a whole as well as we would have liked.

08-08-2005, 09:37 PM	#22
Nevari Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 92	Keelis wrote: Amaryllia wrote: I'd go for any combo as long as both classes are equally useful, and together they benefit 100% of the other archetypes. Unfortunately as it stands now it looks like I may have to roll a troub to help my guild out since 'all' of the troubadors are quitting and they'll be in extreme demand. :/ I did make a post in a different thread pointing out the ways Troubadors are still quite good at buffing melee (STA, haste) and especially a mixed group, where they can also boost mages/healers/spellcasters of any kind (SKs, themselves, dirges). Message Edited by Amaryllia on 08-07-2005 01:39 PM I've never quite understood why they designed the game with two neutral subclasses for each archtype. I understand having two subclasses, one good and one evil, for the classes that have a good only or evil only branch. But for neutral, why not just have one class, like Bard, but not have the split subclasses. Just merge the two, keep the best parts of each one, and let the player decide which buffing/debuffing songs to load up based on the current group needs. You can look at it like this. Go from the archetype to the class which branches in two subclasses. Each subclass is in a way doing the same in a opposite way. For example Guardian - defensive, while Berserker - offensive. Troubador - defensive, Dirge - offensive. And so on. Now this is at least for the bard class changed to caster and melee which none of us did sign up in the first place. __________________

08-08-2005, 11:51 PM	#23
Collaud Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	I can't believe SOE is being this stupid. Minor bugs and imbalances are expected in MMORPGs, but completely overhauling a combat system, changing the roles of classes, etc. is ridiculous... and this is the 2nd straight game they've done it in. Nice reputation you're building, SOE.

08-09-2005, 12:05 AM	#24
Muskrat Merciless Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6	Niburr wrote: You have to realize that you've been playing a class that was so much better than its evil counterpart that they had to restore some kind of balance for your Dirge brothers and sisters. Niburr, I think you severely misunderstand our response to these changes. Yes, I agree that Dirges are due for a long needed improvement to their class, and I am glad to see something is finally happening. For this reason, I make a point of never complaining about the changes with my Dirge friends. The issue Troubadors are taking up is the concept "Troubadors are for Mages & Priests - Dirges are for Scouts & Fighers." My expectations are that both Troubs and Dirges need songs that benefit all groups differently, but as balanced* for all groups as possible. Unfortunately Sony has changed their original design for these classes so it no longer meets the playstyle desired by the people playing them.

08-09-2005, 01:08 AM	#25
Keel Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 64	Niburr wrote: You have to realize that you've been playing a class that was so much better than its evil counterpart that they had to restore some kind of balance for your Dirge brothers and sisters. [Disclaimer: I do not play a Dirge or Troubador, but have friends of both classes. ] Message Edited by Niburr on 08-07-2005 07:09 AM Neither subclass is inherently evil or good (though you can choose to play your character however you wish), so there is no 'evil counterpart'. A Bard in either city can choose either subclass. __________________ __________________________________________________ _____ Blackguard: We made some early assumptions when creating the items, population, and other content for EverQuest II that haven't served the game as a whole as well as we would have liked.

08-09-2005, 02:38 AM	#26
Keel Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 64	Nevarion wrote: You can look at it like this. Go from the archetype to the class which branches in two subclasses. Each subclass is in a way doing the same in a opposite way. For example Guardian - defensive, while Berserker - offensive. Troubador - defensive, Dirge - offensive. And so on. Now this is at least for the bard class changed to caster and melee which none of us did sign up in the first place. But that makes even less sense to me. Before one was defensive centric and the other offense centric. Now one buffs melee types and the other buffs only caster types? And neither buffs Bard types? The good/evil split makes sense for some classes, but not all. A clear example comes from Crusaders. Paladins have traditionally been good. In fact, in AD&D they could only be Lawful Good and if they ever did anything not Lawful Good they were stripped of their Paladin status and became a Fighter. The Anti-Paladin (aka Shadow Knight) was created to oppose the awful goodness of the Paladin. So, I see the purpose of having a Good Crusader and an Evil Crusader. The same structure makes sense for a lot of the other classes/subclasses in EQ2. Templar/Inquisitor, Necromancer/Conjurer, Assassin/Ranger (though I won't pretend to understand why Assassins don't get to assassinate) and so on. But with the Neutral classes? What is there to oppose? And look at all the controversy the planned changes to Troubadour is stirring up. It sounds like Troubadours are getting spanked really hard with a really big nerf stick, and it sounds like Dirges aren't all that happy either. Since the combat revamp is going to completely redefine Troubadours and Dirges anyway, I think it would make a lot more sense to just merge the two Bard subclasses into one class, otherwise they will probably have to redo them by Christmas. Message Edited by Keelis on 08-08-2005 03:39 PM __________________ __________________________________________________ _____ Blackguard: We made some early assumptions when creating the items, population, and other content for EverQuest II that haven't served the game as a whole as well as we would have liked.

08-10-2005, 01:44 PM	#27
Cygnu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	EvilIguana966 wrote: Bards = Area affect songs that help the party and hinder the opponents Dirges = More focus on harming the enemy. Troub = More focus on strengthening the party. That's how I see it. That's how it was marketted. That's how it should stay. Making one a caster buffer and the other a melee buffer just doesn't make sense to me. This post is spot on! I understand why they are making changes to the combat system. I can see why some areas need tweaking. But I was expecting the strenght of some classes to be adjusted, some skills to be altered and NPCs to be amended. What I didn't expect was classes to be completely redefined :smileymad: The current quests for helping you to decide which sub classe to take are uninformative at best and so people spend a lot of time researching and reading to make sure they pick a class that will suit them. After all they are going to spend a LOT of time with this character. If a character doesn't feel right for me I re-roll. Well I finally found my character in a Troubadour. I liked the role in groups and especially in raids. I have been playing my Troubadour for 9 months now and I love it. I am not even going to post the playtime on this character. It is embarrisingly high. And now I fnd out that the roles and abilities of the Troubadour are being completely redefined! [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is that all about? I am not very happy. 9 months to get where I am and I am not starting again. If the new role doesn't suit then thats it for me.

08-10-2005, 04:34 PM	#28
Mull Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 24	You dont have to play test to know this is a bad idea. The problem here, IMO, is there are too many classes to make each one truly different in the role they bring to a group And have that roll be meaningful. Bards should buff all classes in the group. Spliting it up between Bard & Dirge is like saying Druids can heal casters only and clerics can heal melee only.....just for the sake of making them have different roles. Different is good ... but there are many ways to make classes different without having to have a completely different role. Now... fixing problems and tweeking things is always expected in a mmorg. What is not expected nor should EVER be done is to completely change the roll of a class 9 months into a released game. THE main role of a Troubador right now is to buff the defense/stats of the Tank/s. Thats why you want one in your group/raid. Yep...with the current system when you add Troub buffs with say Guardian self buffs and a sprinking of other buffs you have a super tank. That needs to be "TWEEKED" ie...adjusted....not smacked with the nerf bat till unrecognizable. I would not complain at all if the merged the two bard classes ...gave us the good of both ... limited the defense buffing so as to not be overpowered. OR....give both classes the buffs ... give the troub an edg in buffing and the Dirge an edge in debuffing/dps. Now whats wrong with that???? Rift lv 50 Troubador Kithcore

08-10-2005, 08:20 PM	#29
rac General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17	these changes simply destroy the class of a troubardour...-less damage-buffs which only support ither not even teh troubardour himselfi didn´t spend a lot of time and effort to be a illu in medium armor who deals much less damage...leave the troubardour as it is!! PLEASE!

08-10-2005, 08:39 PM	#30
Imri Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 301	MorDecaio wrote: You might as well make Wardens have reactives, and Templars have wards. It is summarilly the same. I wasn't sure or not if I should tell you thye did give templars a ward. It's pretty puny, but I suppose it's meant to compensate for the major hit to their healing abilities they are taking so far. All that aside, I do understand your pain. I think this is an attempt by SOe to remove the key factor in creating invulnerable tanks. I just don't know if this is the righ path. I think you definately need to have decent stat buffs for all stats, and if you get some extras that enhance mages more than melees, I think you will be ok. As I have seen so far you don't have that quite yet. Hopefully it changes by the time combat changes go live.