/hide_illusion is a waste of the devs resources...

[Dave]

I have to disagree with SniperKitty.  Being able to hide the cosmetic effect of one of these spells and still enjoy the game-play effects is no different than wanting the protection of wearing a helmet but still being able to see your head by using the /showhood command.

[Timt]

Anyone know if this will affect Spirit Totems too ? At the moment the Sprit of Wolf Totem is very useful in that it gives you a 24% speed buff outside of combat, but had a drawback in that you take wolf form and some operations like jumping become a lot trickier (try jumping around Zek gate traps). Now if you can choose to turn off the wolf form then there is no reason not to have SoW on pretty much all the time (if you can afford it that is). This is good news for Woodworkers like me With regard to the OP's rant, whilst his tone is a bit harsh, his point about priorities is valid. This feature won't change the number of people quitting/buying the game regardless of which way it's configured, so it should be bottom of the pile when it comes to developer time. Sure there may be some people complaining about it, but I can guarantee there are 100 times more people complaining about lag, broken quests, class balance, broken spells, mob pathing, raiding content etc. etc. These are the things that people will leave over not the fact that they look like a bat.

[Jan It]

The vast majority will love this change and so do I. We will still move around in that forms more or less often, but we´re not forced to do it all the time. And for all who think it would be unrealistic to get a form that grants bonuses, but to be able to turn those forms off, actually the devs have heard your pleas. Characters now will still be forced to stay in the form needed to get the boni but each class gets a new spell, activated by a command word, that allows us to cover our form by our original appearance.:smileytongue:

[SniperKitty]

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BallardDav wrote:I have to disagree with SniperKitty.  Being able to hide the cosmetic effect of one of these spells and still enjoy the game-play effects is no different than wanting the protection of wearing a helmet but still being able to see your head by using the /showhood command.

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That's the point!! It's not a cosmetic effect.  The beneficial aspects of the buff come from the actual change of the character's shape.  Warden of the Forest, the wolf form spell wardens get.  Increased visual, audio, and olfactory acuity is what allows them to have the See Hidden Vision aspect of the buff.  The thick, furry coat is what increases the wardens mitigation against damage.  The form of the wolf must allow the warden to be closer to the mystical aspect of nature, which increases power and health. The shapechange aspect should be considered an integral part of the spell. 

[Jeridor]

It's not a waste.  Any class that has spells that shape shift while providing key benefits aside from an illusion will be thankful for this.  As a mystic, I *always* use bear form and frankly as cool as the illusion can be, or was, it's often obstructive as I take up a lot of the screen when in a group, especially in dungeons.  Plus I like the way my character looks, I don't want to be forced to look like a bear to get the bear form benefits.  I'm quite thankful for this command.

[Bad_Mojo]

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SniperKitty wrote:

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BallardDav wrote:
I have to disagree with SniperKitty.  Being able to hide the cosmetic effect of one of these spells and still enjoy the game-play effects is no different than wanting the protection of wearing a helmet but still being able to see your head by using the /showhood command.

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That's the point!! It's not a cosmetic effect.  The beneficial aspects of the buff come from the actual change of the character's shape.  Warden of the Forest, the wolf form spell wardens get.  Increased visual, audio, and olfactory acuity is what allows them to have the See Hidden Vision aspect of the buff.  The thick, furry coat is what increases the wardens mitigation against damage.  The form of the wolf must allow the warden to be closer to the mystical aspect of nature, which increases power and health.

The shapechange aspect should be considered an integral part of the spell. 

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So how do you explain /showhood, which is in the game already and allows someone to have all the effects and stats of a helm without needing to actually wear it?

[Bad_Mojo]

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Jeridor wrote:
It's not a waste.  Any class that has spells that shape shift while providing key benefits aside from an illusion will be thankful for this.  As a mystic, I *always* use bear form and frankly as cool as the illusion can be, or was, it's often obstructive as I take up a lot of the screen when in a group, especially in dungeons.  Plus I like the way my character looks, I don't want to be forced to look like a bear to get the bear form benefits.  I'm quite thankful for this command.

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I had to ask a mystic to move once because he was standing on the broker.  She was actually entirely inside him, only when he did the odd "sniff the ground" animation where he lowered his head could you see any of her, and that was only the top of her head. 

[Vandessa]

I am so glad this spell is going in, no offense to mystics, but sometimes your big bear form made it hard to see in tight dungeon settings   Not only that our Defiler spell is pure particle effects and can lag out less fortunate players with non-fancy machines. If I'm in a group I'd like to hide my illusion if it means I don't lag our tank out or something similar.

 

This is a great addition, I personaly applaud the use of the resources.

[SniperKitty]

I don't like that command either.  It should not remove helms from view, only raise and lower hoods on applicable robes/tunics.

[Katx]

I have really mixed feelings on this.  On the one hand, I think there are already plenty of options to get around being "stuck" in bear/lion/wolf form already.  We honestly have a ton of options for this.

On the other, as a Fury, I will be happy to be able to use Predatory and/or Feral Salve since it's a good heal I never used much as virtually no one in my guild wants to be turned into a lion mid-fight.

Another bummer is that if people have their showforms turned off, we won't be able to use all the cool spells we have to mess with each other and turn them into bats, frogs, rust monsters, etc.  That's kind of sad.  :smileysad:

Really mixed feelings.

Message Edited by Katxim on 04-15-2005 10:28 AM

[Ashlian]

Frankly, if I wanted to play a game that simulated reality, I'd.....wait, I DON'T want to play a game that simulates reality that closely. Sometimes I enjoy my ability as a Fury to change form, as in at the moment when half my armor doesn't match, but it truly is an annoyance in dungeons and when my friends take screenshots of my furry butt sticking up in the air, or when my brother disappears entirely into the ground with only his tail sticking out when he uses a Spirit Totem (valid point there on the spirit totems from an earlier poster).  There are  a lot of things I'd like the devs to spend a lot of time on other than fixing these issues, if, as has been repeatedly stated, all they have to do is turn the illusions off and leave the benefits on. And it got to the point where I cast Predatory Salve BEFORE combat just so I didn't have to hear the cries of [Removed for Content] happened to me on Teamspeak!

Ashlian Liadan, Fury of Mistmoore

[Auntee]

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"the mewling brats"
"Increased Armor Class. <-- Big thick, furry coat."
"Narcissist of the Glade"

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ROFL!

 

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But if anyone does not reply with a Haiku then you are all very stupid and i hate you!

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Faceless Defiler
With televangelist hair
Should've clicked Yoppa

[PerinSto]

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SniperKitty wrote:
I don't like that command either.  It should not remove helms from view, only raise and lower hoods on applicable robes/tunics.

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So then why even have the tool to customize how you look?  In your ideal world it wouldn't matter what your character looks like at all.  Everyone would be covered head to toe in armor or in bear/wolf/lion form.  So why bother spending even 2 seconds to customize your looks?

And why is it inconceivable to cast a spell and get the benefits of a wolf without looking like one?  I get a buff that adds to my strength.  Should I be upset that my toon doesn't grow bigger muscles when it is cast?  Or because my shield doesn't get bigger when I cast Weapon Shield?

I somewhat understand your point about the hide_illusion, but the way you present it makes you sound like a raving lunatic. 

[Jatr]

Most of the whining I see has been from the OP That post was full of rambling and whining.

[Elda]

my problem with shapechange spells wasnt really that it made me look like a purple mist thing (defiler wraith form), it was more that my purple mist thing, or lion, or bear, looked just like everyone elses purple mist thing, or lion or bear.

 

some of my enjoyment from this game is aesthetic, and comes from designing my characters look....if we were allowed to customize our illusion forms which we spend so much time in (priest classes), i don't think we'd have much problem with the way they look.

 

not all lions look exactly the same, especially magicaly enchanted lions. some might have longer manes, red fur, or white eyes. same with enchanted wolves, wraiths and bears.  a level 48 defiler turning into a wraith would probably have a much more forboding and horrific visage than a level 35....generally a characters apperance upgrades in a manner commensurate with his level....not so with illusions.

 

it's the lack of individuality and diversity which bothers me, not the fact that i must shapeshift. i understand that creating a myriad of visual options for shapeshifting priest forms is probably about priority number 1000001 on the list of fixes (as well it should be), so the /hide_illusion command is a nice 'band-aid' until we hopefully see something else to combat the faceless anonymity of looking like every single other character of your class, regardless of level, every time you are in a combat zone.

 

 

[b3taha]

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SniperKitty wrote:The only "illusions" that are worthwhile buffs, are NOT ILLUSIONS.  They are physcial changes to the characters body and that's why the buff grants the enhancements it does.  The /hide_illusion command is a pointless waste of the devs time and a copout.  The devs are caving in to the whining crybabies.  If you want the benefits of the buff, deal with the frakkin' shapechange then you freaking crybabies.  Otherwise don't use the damned thing.  It's that simple.  Alternatively, you can use an illusion, like Call of the Fae or Rowyl's Form of the Vale (although it does say form) to cover up the wolf / lion / bear / whatever form. Point is, the spells are physical changes to the character.  They are not illusions that you can simply get rid of.  The point of the buffs is that you get the benefits from the physical shape your character is in.  Colossus from the X-Men had to change his skin to metal to get the benefits of his invulnerability.  He couldn't just 'turn off' the metal but still be invulnerable.  You should not be allowed to hide the physical change of shapechange buffs.  They are technically not an illusion, but a physical change of the character. I fully expect all the crybabies to come out of the woodwork and one star me.  Bring it on whiners.

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First off. Why does this concern you? That is about it to my response. I think you are just here to create a post to vent your anger out on something else. What is really bothering you I don't know. (Psych 101 :robottongue:)

[shtychk]

Well I for one am happy they are making this change.... & I doubt it took a lot of resources to remove a shape change....

[Fennir]

What's funny is that the mystics in my guild bought eyes for the respective characters they play, just so they could retain their original form. I'm still boggled that anyone could actually complain about this.... like my head hurts from trying to figure out where the OP is coming from.  Like I said... toolish people have toolish ideas.

[Debillus]

SniperKitty, listen up... here's the lowdown, and a few pointers that may (or may not) enlighten you on the subject. I myself have advocated for exactly this command, but I didn't bring it to these boards before I had actualy : 1) Experienced (playing my brigand) what grouping with a mystic in bear shape does for your view - and your enjoyment of same. 2) Played my own mystic to level 42, hence having "lived with" the consequences of the bear shape for 22 levels. 3) Endured my own frustrations of NEVER having MY toon visible the way I created him. Always being a bear, or some other illusion (now how's this for reality - I can throw a halfling illusion on my halfling, and then the bear spell if I wanna stay a halfling - only, not the halfling I created, but some other version). 4) Listened to endless comments from groupmembers (see #1) ranging from "please could you do something else than this bear" to "j00 st00pid biga$$ed bear rem0ve j00r stinkin' BUTT from my head" - I've seen them all. 5) To avoid the above having to cancel buff, throw illusion, recast bearspell every single time i zone, get escaped or take the bird or my horse. 6) Discussed this with the groups I've been playing with, as well as my guild. My thread can be found here This is not whining. This is valid argumentation why a spell, which is MANDATORY for any mystic to keep up, should be optional. I can actualy relate to your point of view. It's not the first time I've heard it. Still, it's YOUR idea about how I should play / endure my class, and the abilities it facilitates. It has absolutely NO effect on how YOU play or endure YOUR game. /B

Message Edited by Beetle on 04-15-2005 08:31 PM

[Davi]

Two last parting comments,

 

1) any source of material used in any type of quoted material should be cited.  Many sources of information do this but of course there are no grades associated with great works of literature like that of Plato, Aristotle or of any other of the great thinkers associated with early literature.  Well you could of course say that their grade was their ultimate execution, but if that was the case then I wouldn't be writing this reply now... I would be in the afterlife because of my great thinking ability :smileywink:

 

2)  The general concern I see by those who would think the /showform comand is bad seems to be that some people consider it to be game mechanics that the form is somehow connected to the buff.  Because of it being connected in this way it should not be changed.  I call my earlier definition of illusion into the text here and would like to emphasize  that the planet of Norath is an illusionary world, the dev is god.  That said.... it is game mechanics that there be a /showform command and on the 7th day it was good and right.  :smileysurprised:

[SniperKitty]

" I can actualy relate to your point of view. It's not the first time I've heard it. Still, it's YOUR idea about how I should play / endure my class, and the abilities it facilitates. It has absolutely NO effect on how YOU play or endure YOUR game." No, I'm arguing for leaving things the way they were.  It's obvious the original intention of the devs, was for the casters that use these buffs, to change shape and learn to deal with the drawbacks.  It should remain that way.  I do have experience with the different shapes and their drawbacks as well.  I play a lvl 40 warden, lvl 23 defiler, and I've grouped with plenty of mystics.  It didn't take all that much effort to work out positioning so that we were on the outside edges of the group so we could heal effectively and deal with the visual impediment in tight quarters. Now what about ogres...  they're pretty big.  They block my view.  Especially in Runnyeye.  I want a / command that turns all ogres, and trolls while we're at it, into small fluffly bunnies.

[DustusSapph]

Try to play a mystic in that GIGANTIC bear form in a tight dungeon for 20 or so levels and then you'll understand why /hide_illusion is awesome.

[SniperKitty]

Since the cat's out of the bag, let's list all the other beneficial buffs which have a drawback associated with them.  Why should any of them have a drawback that can't be removed now that we can remove the drawback of the shapechanging spells? Hold the Line - Warrior.  Roots the warrior in place. Sneak, et al. - Scout.  Forces the scout into an unnatural crouch posture and lowers their movement speed. Brawler's Stance - Brawler.  Lowers offensive skill. Knight's Stance - Crusader.  Lowers offensive skill. Those are just a few examples of buffs with benefits and drawbacks.  If one type of buff can have it's drawbacks removed, why can't the rest of 'em?

[-AtPlay-]

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SniperKitty wrote:Since the cat's out of the bag, let's list all the other beneficial buffs which have a drawback associated with them.  Why should any of them have a drawback that can't be removed now that we can remove the drawback of the shapechanging spells? Hold the Line - Warrior.  Roots the warrior in place. Sneak, et al. - Scout.  Forces the scout into an unnatural crouch posture and lowers their movement speed. Brawler's Stance - Brawler.  Lowers offensive skill. Knight's Stance - Crusader.  Lowers offensive skill. Those are just a few examples of buffs with benefits and drawbacks.  If one type of buff can have it's drawbacks removed, why can't the rest of 'em?

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Probably because the devs never intended for the illusions to be drawbacks, but fun.

[SniperKitty]

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DustusSapphic wrote:

Try to play a mystic in that GIGANTIC bear form in a tight dungeon for 20 or so levels and then you'll understand why /hide_illusion is awesome.

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Uh hello McFly... I play a level forty warden.  I have played the game with a shapechange spell (big wolf form) for twenty levels.  You are a level twenty-six mystic.  That's only six levels as a bear.  Your math is flawed.

[JWDaz]

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SniperKitty wrote:
"But while we are on the subject, my sneak skill is really good but I don't like the decreased movement that comes with it. Can we remove the speed decrease part of this spell please. Just because it ruins my enjoyment of the game" ~ Cygnus

Exactly!  I play a rogue too.  I don't like the crouching and slow movement either.  So lets get rid of it and make it so we run at normal speed and posture while stealthed... well actually, give me the ability to /hide_stealtheffects.  After all, it "ruins" my enjoyment of the game, sneaking so slow.  While we're at it, I hate riding griffins.  I want a / command that let's me teleport wherever I want to go.  After all, the travel time from zone to zone "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  Also, I hate mismatched armor.  I want to wear whatever armor I want to, but be able to look like whatever I want to, regardless of class, race.  So give me some commands or options to change the appearance of my armor pieces to whatever I want.  After all, being forced to wear mismatched armor "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  I don't like leveling.  I want to be able to push a button and be level fifty with all adept3's of my spells and combat arts.  Afterall, the leveling grind "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.

I could go on and on and on with different examples of how something "ruins" my enjoyment of the game.  The point is, there's no reason for this change, except that the devs caved in to the whiners.

The shapechange spells change the characters shape for a reason.  The beneficial effects of the buff come from the changed shape itself.  Without the shape, there's no reason the characters should get the benefits of the buff.  The drawbacks of the spell are the increased size of the form.  Wardens get a Bee illusion.  Mystics get a Snake illusion.  Defilers get a Kohlrat illusion.  I'm not sure what the lvl 30 illusion is for Fury's though.  These illusions can be used over the shapechange spells to be smaller.  Heck, I'd love to the have the Snake illusion.  It's *$%#&! small and would be great for dungeons.

This change is only the beginning.  People have seen that whining will get things changed, so now they're going to whine even more to get other things changed.

You want the benefits of the buff, you deal with the drawbacks.  It's as simple as that and the devs lost sight of that.

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While I do like the change, I can understand the argument that the resources required for this may have been used elsewhere... of course that's assuming this required any resources whatsoever...

And they have another set of problems with the buff... first off there are many graphic errors with lion form (as well as with other shapeshifts).  Whenever I cast them on other classes (because as a Fury I have no choice BUT to cast them, since it's attached to my stupid [Removed for Content] heal line, and my instant heal at level 48 or whatever) I can cause many different viewing problems.  Now those are simple problems that cause me to have a more difficult time healing. 

I don't have a problem with my incomparable predator changing me into a lion.  I doubt Wardens do either.  I just think that in particular this was petitioned because of the Salve line from Furies.  Now, personally, I think they could've just removed that aspect of the line.  It's a healing line that unfortunately changes the shape of the target.  It's my LAST choice as heal, because of the higher cost, and because unless it's already up, I'm going to disorient the tank in the middle of combat, and in many cases, hide my view of him.

I think odds are, all they did was gin up a few lines of code to let players toggle on and off their image changes.  It probably was pretty simple, and didn't require much work, least it wouldn't seem like it would... but again, I fail to see what the big deal about it is?

[ChristopherK]

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SniperKitty wrote:

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DustusSapphic wrote:

Try to play a mystic in that GIGANTIC bear form in a tight dungeon for 20 or so levels and then you'll understand why /hide_illusion is awesome.

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Uh hello McFly... I play a level forty warden.  I have played the game with a shapechange spell (big wolf form) for twenty levels.  You are a level twenty-six mystic.  That's only six levels as a bear.  Your math is flawed.

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Fine, 50 Mystic here. Been playing bear form for 30 levels. If they spent even more time to just rename our "bear" buff to "spirit of the bear" where we only get the spirit of the bear and not the shapechange.. would that make it any different for you? Because I hate the bear form and have gone through hundreds of human bones to "illusion" myself before the shape change.

As a mystic I have no other self buff that adds 300 or so Power and Health and a 10% chance to proc 300 with 50 per tick dot. And increase my mitigation etc.. So "NOT" using the buff isn't an option.

Figure it took the Devs all of 5 minutes to add the /hide_illusion command in the game. Probably take a good half a day to change the spell all together to make it a non shapechange spell and relable it "spirit of"

 

[SniperKitty]

"As a mystic I have no other self buff that adds 300 or so Power and Health and a 10% chance to proc 300 with 50 per tick dot. And increase my mitigation etc.. So "NOT" using the buff isn't an option." It is an option.  One which you lack the willpower to excercise.  Instead, you and many others came whining to the devs to get the benefits without the drawbacks.  I, as a Warden, aggro magnet extraordinaire, rarely use Wolf form spells in groups.  About the only time I use wolf form is when soloing.

[aerofr]

sniper, does it seriously bother you so much that after this update some people might enjoy their class a little bit more?  you seem very angry about this. 

also, approaching the arguement in such an immature manner doesn't really help your case.

if other people currently have a choice of whether or not to use buffs, you'll have a choice after this update of using the hide illusion command OR NOT.

sorry that a FANTASY game isn't realistic enough for you.  you're right though, when i turn into a wolf IRL to get the additional power, i'm stuck being a wolf.  lol

[MilkToa]

I completely disagree,  it is a great feature that will improve the playing experience for many people. Personally, there are many classes I never considered playing because to perform optimally required taking on a different form.