Please fix the LOTO algorythm

Tear · 04-07-2005, 04:43 AM

As it stands right now, loto is not a fair meathod of distrubuting loot. Some people win all the time, and others never win a round. This leads to frustration and people being unhappy with their group members. Please look at the code that rolls on items, and make it more fair. Tearan -Antonia Bayle Mist -test Kestral -test Sidhe -test

Miral · 04-07-2005, 05:12 AM

and while you are looking into the lotto system, make it so that quest continuation items, like the cutlass on IoR, automatically go to the person that initiated the quest. If someone else gets teh drop then the person that used the map is SOL unless they steal it from someone else...

Rebasy · 04-07-2005, 05:17 AM

The lotto system is a superb idea, it really speeds up looting rather than having to random for everything.

However, as you said, there is some buggy code in it. I always hunt with the same group of folks and we have noticed that some nights one person wins the majority of loot while some win practically nothing. It is not just down to a matter of luck, may the time I have seen a person roll on 3 seperate items that drop from a group of mobs and win all three items one after another. The chances of that happening are pretty slim, 1/6 * 1/6 *1/6. And this is not an odd occassion but has happened far to frequently to be random luck streaks.

Please look at this lotto code again, something is not quite right with it.

zDocW · 04-07-2005, 05:23 AM

Miral wrote:
and while you are looking into the lotto system, make it so that quest continuation items, like the cutlass on IoR, automatically go to the person that initiated the quest. If someone else gets teh drop then the person that used the map is SOL unless they steal it from someone else...

Agree totally - Happened to me in IoR, I initiated the quest but lost the lotto. No problems I thought - we just do the quest again until I get the sword. Guess what - I couldn't. Lotto winner had already done the quest. Really upset me at the time. Quest used up, no reward and no chance of reward unless I conned someone else.

With reference to the OP, I believe SOE think that the Lotto is random, but sometimes I really wonder....The number of times I see the same person in a group keep on winning lotto leads me to wonder if in fact it really is actually random.

As an ex programmer I can see that there might be problems with the "seed" that they use to create the random number to determine the lotto. Honestly SOE this does seem a bit fishy to me, although I understand that random numbers don't always appear to be "random".

Message Edited by zDocWho on 04-07-2005 06:26 AM

batter_then · 04-07-2005, 07:57 AM

once i went 2 weeks with out winning a danm thing... even merchent loot... and i had a group every night to for at least 2 hours.... just thought i would add my 2 copper to the subject

Tanyla · 04-07-2005, 03:41 PM

I agree 100%. I was in group with 2 others for 2 hrs (at a time when chests seemed more plentiful) in that time we had about 10 or 11 chests drop (EL chests suck lol at least 3 were quests, but new at the time to us) and guess what .... all I won was 1 bug antenea and 2 bug shells, rest of the loot went to the other 2 in the group using the lotto.

Got to the point, that with our regular group, we ended up trying to keeping track and taking turns looting , but that regular group broke up as some moved to different games, so we ended up back on the lotto. I use to decline after I have won something to give another a chance, but do to the unrandom random selection of the lotto, I stopped and roll on every thing unless it is stated as a major upgrade for a group member or is a spell a gtroup member can use ... but when I see 2 group members getting 80% of the drops it ticks me off royally.

It really really has to be fixed

Big Da · 04-07-2005, 03:47 PM

Always seems as im sure many have said that each night one are two players are blessed by the loot monkey and the rest of us get the scraps!

I'm not going to load this posts with bad statistics but I rarely see a night where the loot drops in equal distribution.

Maybe this averages out over time? I for one however would like the system to try and equally distribute the loot more. I dont want any weighting such as those that win one lotto have less chance on the next, but random does not seem very random on lotto as it stands.

Bur · 04-07-2005, 04:15 PM

This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time. In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand?

Katanari · 04-07-2005, 05:48 PM

Burem wrote:
This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item.

In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time.

In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand?

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that its random.. they are stating the fact the lotto system seems to sway to certain people in a group. I have witnessed this myself MANY times. I have even been in the shoes where I was winning everything and felt guilty so I started declining because I know how much it really stinks not to win anything.

All we are asking for is a lotting system that is more fair to each player in the group. There have been numerous threads about new lotto systems. There have been some really good Ideas. I am confident SoE can come up with a better program for looting.

Ethelwo · 04-07-2005, 05:53 PM

Currently there is only one way around the not so swift loto system. Solo if you want any loot. I also have determined that some classes have a better chance for winning loot and I can tell you this, Monks aint one of them. I can't say never, but my Monk at L33 has almost never won any loot when grouped. In fact I will go as far as to say that the only time he does win loot in a group is when the others decline the item. My Ranger does win a little more often and my Tank (Berserker) wins about 20% of the time which is pretty good in a group of six. Casters win the most IMO, but I'm certain there are those who would disagree. I don't play a caster, but it seems when one is in my group they get the lions share of the loot. Priests sem to do about as well as my tank. I do know that If im in a group and one person keeps winning the loto on everything I drop out. Getting experience is fine, but when you ding and need an upgrade on a new spell or equipment and cant afford it, your gimped.

Big Da · 04-07-2005, 07:01 PM

Burem wrote:
This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item.

In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time.

In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand?

You seemed to have misunderstood every single post in this thread. If you manage to make a computer that can generate a random number you will be the most brilliant technical mind to date!

Computers are NOT RANDOM, they have a seed. It is very easy to randomise within code and not reseed or make errors with dealing with this seed. This is only one example where randomisation can be used in error. It seems far too often that one player receives most of the loot. What we are saying is that it happens so often that it may be an issue. Is that too hard to understand?

aeio · 04-07-2005, 07:11 PM

Sorry but you are going to have to provide more evidence than saying sometimes someone always wins and sometimes someone never wins. I am sure they have checked the lotto system many times and it is doing what it is supposed to do. It is random, so it is quite likely that you will have some unusual patterns and swings over the short-term. Any given hunting session is very short-term in the scheme of things. If someone has NEVER won a lotto since release, or someone has won EVERY group lotto since release, you might have something. But going out with friends, whom you don't even know who is and is not lottoing on all items and because one guy wins 3 out of 4 of the items you wanted, even if you did win twice yourself but only got junk loot.. does not mean there is a problem with the lotto system. It simply means you were not lucky that time.

aeio · 04-07-2005, 07:15 PM

Katanari wrote:

Burem wrote:This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time.In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand?

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that its random.. they are stating the fact the lotto system seems to sway to certain people in a group. I have witnessed this myself MANY times. I have even been in the shoes where I was winning everything and felt guilty so I started declining because I know how much it really stinks not to win anything.

All we are asking for is a lotting system that is more fair to each player in the group. There have been numerous threads about new lotto systems. There have been some really good Ideas. I am confident SoE can come up with a better program for looting.

So sometimes you win too much and sometimes you don't win enough. That proves the system is working just fine.

Big Da · 04-07-2005, 07:24 PM

aeiouy wrote:

Katanari wrote:

Burem wrote:
This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item.

In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time.

In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand?

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that its random.. they are stating the fact the lotto system seems to sway to certain people in a group. I have witnessed this myself MANY times. I have even been in the shoes where I was winning everything and felt guilty so I started declining because I know how much it really stinks not to win anything.

All we are asking for is a lotting system that is more fair to each player in the group. There have been numerous threads about new lotto systems. There have been some really good Ideas. I am confident SoE can come up with a better program for looting.

So sometimes you win too much and sometimes you don't win enough. That proves the system is working just fine.

No it proves that there is a random element. Some people dont want one person in a group to win loot consistantly. Even if now and again it is them. They are discussing who else has this problem. Which is very common. They are also stating how this makes loot bad becuase they would rather have a more equal distribution inside a group.

Quick comments like yours help nobody.

Bur · 04-07-2005, 07:39 PM

1. Moorgard has responded to threads of this type already; he said random is random. 2. There is NO WAY a computer can generate a truely random string of numbers, they are getting as close as they can. It appears to me that everyone I meet "never wins loot" if that is the case as it appears to be then the system is working fine. I would -far- prefer they just added an automatic rotational looting system then spending months trying to tweak a random system that will never please everyone.

TheC · 04-07-2005, 08:05 PM

I don't see a problem with lotto, seems nice and random to me, sometimes I win alot sometimes I don't.

Mol · 04-07-2005, 08:20 PM

TheCoZ wrote:
I don't see a problem with lotto, seems nice and random to me, sometimes I win alot sometimes I don't.

Definately not the case, ive seen plenty groups where the same person or 2 people continually win ALL the chest drops. What you need to add in is a round robin loot system for chests only or fix the lotto.

Wamben · 04-07-2005, 08:28 PM

I propose they keep the lotto sytem but modify it:

Perhaps the Lotto system should check to see who Wants the loot, then in the chat window, the lotto system will do a /random 100 for each player.

Then the lotto system will say something like: "So and so wins {Item name} with a roll of 87"

This way people will be able to see how the lotto system is actually playing out. So instead of feeling gyped every time an item is looted, they will be able to see what the margins certain players win / lose by.

This also adds a little more flair to the system instead of just making it seem like the lotto system magically decides to give out loot to whoever it wants.

Pkac · 04-07-2005, 09:32 PM

I'm really not convinced that the 'lotto' is really a 'lotto'. I uderstand the arguments about how your brain see's patterns where there are none, but I am almost convinced that it has something to do with where your name fits alphabetically in the group order.

My mains name begins with a B and I find that I seem to win a disproportionate amount of drops, except when I am in a regular group with a guildie who's name begins with A....

Like I said it may be nothing.

thepriz · 04-07-2005, 09:52 PM

There is another way to do the Loto thing. You can collect all the loot on one person they have them sell the loot for cash and then do a split. If a NO-TRADE item drops then everyone can do a /ran 200 and the one with the highest number wins the loot. Worked in EQ1 may work for you in EQ2. I plan to use this system in my guild.

Jan It · 04-07-2005, 10:50 PM

Before anyone complains about the lotto system you should clearly learn something about statistics. We have two problems here, on the one hand the number of drops you get within 2 hours of gameplay is simply too small to even things out, as the quality in items differs way too much. Secondly all players are biased and irrational when it comes to their share. If your´re in a group with 6 players and you find 10 rares in a row the chances of not getting any aren´t so small, but if you won´t get a single one you´ll probably feel betrayed to the bone. As stated above, random is random, and if you would play infinite time and get infinite drops you´d see that you get EXACTLY the same loot as your fellow group members.

Pkac · 04-07-2005, 11:37 PM

Jan Itor wrote:
Before anyone complains about the lotto system you should clearly learn something about statistics. We have two problems here, on the one hand the number of drops you get within 2 hours of gameplay is simply too small to even things out, as the quality in items differs way too much.
Secondly all players are biased and irrational when it comes to their share. If your´re in a group with 6 players and you find 10 rares in a row the chances of not getting any aren´t so small, but if you won´t get a single one you´ll probably feel betrayed to the bone.

As stated above, random is random, and if you would play infinite time and get infinite drops you´d see that you get EXACTLY the same loot as your fellow group members.

The fact of the matter is that any computer generated algorithm for random numbers, is not in fact random. There are degrees of 'randomness' if you will. Also it's fairly easy to make a mistake in the implementation of the system that stops it from being Random at all.

Besides, how does you argument stack up with my belief I win MORE than my fair share of drops, over time, in many groups?

I'm not saying I'm convinced it's totally unfair, just that my observations thus far cause me to have some question of just how random it truely is.

Deft · 04-08-2005, 12:12 AM

I believe the lotto system to be pretty close to random if not totally. I understand that a computer is not random by nature, therefore any program that is used to randomize items are subject to having a bug. But as development has stated, they have made it as random as possible. I agree with the previous post who states that the amount of time we stay in a group is not a big enough set of data to say that the lotto system is broken, and I also think that humans by nature are bias in one sense or another. As part of human nature, we only notice when one guy is getting a huge percent of the loot and when the system seems broken. Do we ever pay attention when everything seems evenly distributed. Maybe sometimes you will say "oh, well..today seems like an evenly loot distributed day", but most times it'll get overlooked. However, if the distribution is slightly off, you will notice it right away. In general if one person feels that they seem to be pretty lucky or unlucky with loot..that is highly possible. Its not a totally impossible that one character at level 50 has lost 90% of hits lotto's and only won 10%. If he is playing in a group of 6, the average you should win is only 1/6, so 1/10th is not that much off. It is also possible that one character has practically won 30% of his lottos. If they group at all...it doesn't seem likely..but its all random, it could happen.

Pidgeon · 04-08-2005, 12:14 AM

As they say......A million to one chance happens nine times out of ten :smileyhappy:

Meldari · 04-08-2005, 12:19 AM

Pkachu wrote:
Besides, how does you argument stack up with my belief I win MORE than my fair share of drops, over time, in many groups?

Perception is Random's evil sidekick.

TopHatJon · 04-08-2005, 01:03 AM

I think lotto is a little screwy but not as much as some people here.

My problem is not that sometimes one person dominates it and another leaves empty handed.....that is bound to happen in random systems.

My problem is that when there are multiple items, almost always the same person wins both items. It doesn't appear to treat the items individually most of the time.

Joos · 04-08-2005, 01:08 AM

BTW - there is no known observed instance of a random occurence of anything ever, let alone a computer simulation. So my vote would be a state machine that keeps weighting the outcome in the current top loosers favor down to the biggest winner having the least weight.

Timaarit · 04-08-2005, 10:38 AM

Just my idea: They ahould place the Need Before Greed option to the system. This way the lotto would be held between those who can use it now or in the future. Of course the problem comes with vendor junk as wizards cannot use heavy armor and would thus be shut out from most lottos. But for spells, skills and recipes this would be a good add.

Miele · 04-08-2005, 11:01 AM

After experiencing myself the "lotto issue", I started to parse it using Statalyzer.

Same group hunting together all the time, most of the times I'm group leader and people get invited usually in a set order: my gf first, my coercer friend second and the other 2 friends playing with us, join in a non set order.

5 ppl group: 4th and 5th persons invited were usually getting most of the items, 3rd was getting a decent amount, group leader a couple and the 2nd invited almost none, 2-3 in total was a good night. When we inverted the order of invites, the lotto variance shifted to other ppl of the group, usually similar to the figures above.

Anyway there are some considerations:

- lotto doesn't distinguish between chest drops and body drops

- for how absurd this could seem: the faster you click on "lotto all", the higher are your chances to get something (tested for over two nights, 12 hours or so).

After 5 nights, or about 30 hours, the figures were:

- group leader: 20 items

- 2nd invited: 12 items

- 3rd invited: 35 items

- 4th invited: 75 items

- 5th invited: 82 items

Every night there was the same unbalance, aka the lottoed items were following the same distribution of the previous night.

Given that lotto doesn't distinguish chest drops or body drops, it was also quite clear that person 4 and person 5 got the majority of chest drops (statalyzer records each single loot by name, hard to miss the obvious), we're talking about 50gp worth of loot vs 5gp...

Since then we do Master Looting, lottoing on all body drops but splitting chest drops at the end of the night: it may take 15 minutes for a good night, but everyone walks away happy. EQ1 certified system.

My consideration about group invite order and fast clicking are totally perceived by us five, the end result for assigned drops is not, it's parsed datas. I still think that group invite order has an impact on the good or bad luck SMILEY

my 0.02 €

badcan · 04-08-2005, 12:47 PM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tech_support&message.id=41833

(I guess I spend too much time perusing the forums since I remembered this one so vividly.)

It's a bit dry, but have a read.

[forum software chose to help me create a new thread instead of replying, but I posted here since this is where I intended it to be.]

04-07-2005, 05:12 AM	#2
Miral Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 652	and while you are looking into the lotto system, make it so that quest continuation items, like the cutlass on IoR, automatically go to the person that initiated the quest. If someone else gets teh drop then the person that used the map is SOL unless they steal it from someone else... __________________ yes I'm back, on the 7 day return to eq2 trial. to check out what the combat changes finally ended up being.

04-07-2005, 05:23 AM	#4
zDocW General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 83	Miral wrote: and while you are looking into the lotto system, make it so that quest continuation items, like the cutlass on IoR, automatically go to the person that initiated the quest. If someone else gets teh drop then the person that used the map is SOL unless they steal it from someone else... Agree totally - Happened to me in IoR, I initiated the quest but lost the lotto. No problems I thought - we just do the quest again until I get the sword. Guess what - I couldn't. Lotto winner had already done the quest. Really upset me at the time. Quest used up, no reward and no chance of reward unless I conned someone else. With reference to the OP, I believe SOE think that the Lotto is random, but sometimes I really wonder....The number of times I see the same person in a group keep on winning lotto leads me to wonder if in fact it really is actually random. As an ex programmer I can see that there might be problems with the "seed" that they use to create the random number to determine the lotto. Honestly SOE this does seem a bit fishy to me, although I understand that random numbers don't always appear to be "random". Message Edited by zDocWho on 04-07-2005 06:26 AM

04-07-2005, 05:48 PM	#9
Katanari Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 40	Burem wrote: This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time. In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand? I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that its random.. they are stating the fact the lotto system seems to sway to certain people in a group. I have witnessed this myself MANY times. I have even been in the shoes where I was winning everything and felt guilty so I started declining because I know how much it really stinks not to win anything. All we are asking for is a lotting system that is more fair to each player in the group. There have been numerous threads about new lotto systems. There have been some really good Ideas. I am confident SoE can come up with a better program for looting. __________________ Korbian level 80 Assassin Quinton level 80 Defiler Auvry level 80 Wizard Emorean lvl 80 Necromancer Mikellan lvl 80 Shadow Knight Malarik level 65 Coercer

04-07-2005, 07:01 PM	#11
Big Da Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 201	Burem wrote: This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time. In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand? You seemed to have misunderstood every single post in this thread. If you manage to make a computer that can generate a random number you will be the most brilliant technical mind to date! Computers are NOT RANDOM, they have a seed. It is very easy to randomise within code and not reseed or make errors with dealing with this seed. This is only one example where randomisation can be used in error. It seems far too often that one player receives most of the loot. What we are saying is that it happens so often that it may be an issue. Is that too hard to understand?

04-07-2005, 07:15 PM	#13
aeio Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 267	Katanari wrote: Burem wrote:This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time.In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand? I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that its random.. they are stating the fact the lotto system seems to sway to certain people in a group. I have witnessed this myself MANY times. I have even been in the shoes where I was winning everything and felt guilty so I started declining because I know how much it really stinks not to win anything. All we are asking for is a lotting system that is more fair to each player in the group. There have been numerous threads about new lotto systems. There have been some really good Ideas. I am confident SoE can come up with a better program for looting. So sometimes you win too much and sometimes you don't win enough. That proves the system is working just fine.

04-07-2005, 04:43 AM	#1
Tear General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	As it stands right now, loto is not a fair meathod of distrubuting loot. Some people win all the time, and others never win a round. This leads to frustration and people being unhappy with their group members. Please look at the code that rolls on items, and make it more fair. Tearan -Antonia Bayle Mist -test Kestral -test Sidhe -test

04-07-2005, 05:17 AM	#3
Rebasy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	The lotto system is a superb idea, it really speeds up looting rather than having to random for everything. However, as you said, there is some buggy code in it. I always hunt with the same group of folks and we have noticed that some nights one person wins the majority of loot while some win practically nothing. It is not just down to a matter of luck, may the time I have seen a person roll on 3 seperate items that drop from a group of mobs and win all three items one after another. The chances of that happening are pretty slim, 1/6 * 1/6 *1/6. And this is not an odd occassion but has happened far to frequently to be random luck streaks. Please look at this lotto code again, something is not quite right with it.

04-07-2005, 07:57 AM	#5
batter_then Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 109	once i went 2 weeks with out winning a danm thing... even merchent loot... and i had a group every night to for at least 2 hours.... just thought i would add my 2 copper to the subject

04-07-2005, 03:41 PM	#6
Tanyla Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	I agree 100%. I was in group with 2 others for 2 hrs (at a time when chests seemed more plentiful) in that time we had about 10 or 11 chests drop (EL chests suck lol at least 3 were quests, but new at the time to us) and guess what .... all I won was 1 bug antenea and 2 bug shells, rest of the loot went to the other 2 in the group using the lotto. Got to the point, that with our regular group, we ended up trying to keeping track and taking turns looting , but that regular group broke up as some moved to different games, so we ended up back on the lotto. I use to decline after I have won something to give another a chance, but do to the unrandom random selection of the lotto, I stopped and roll on every thing unless it is stated as a major upgrade for a group member or is a spell a gtroup member can use ... but when I see 2 group members getting 80% of the drops it ticks me off royally. It really really has to be fixed

04-07-2005, 03:47 PM	#7
Big Da Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 201	Always seems as im sure many have said that each night one are two players are blessed by the loot monkey and the rest of us get the scraps! I'm not going to load this posts with bad statistics but I rarely see a night where the loot drops in equal distribution. Maybe this averages out over time? I for one however would like the system to try and equally distribute the loot more. I dont want any weighting such as those that win one lotto have less chance on the next, but random does not seem very random on lotto as it stands.

04-07-2005, 04:15 PM	#8
Bur Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 106	This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time. In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand?

04-07-2005, 05:53 PM	#10
Ethelwo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 212	Currently there is only one way around the not so swift loto system. Solo if you want any loot. I also have determined that some classes have a better chance for winning loot and I can tell you this, Monks aint one of them. I can't say never, but my Monk at L33 has almost never won any loot when grouped. In fact I will go as far as to say that the only time he does win loot in a group is when the others decline the item. My Ranger does win a little more often and my Tank (Berserker) wins about 20% of the time which is pretty good in a group of six. Casters win the most IMO, but I'm certain there are those who would disagree. I don't play a caster, but it seems when one is in my group they get the lions share of the loot. Priests sem to do about as well as my tank. I do know that If im in a group and one person keeps winning the loto on everything I drop out. Getting experience is fine, but when you ding and need an upgrade on a new spell or equipment and cant afford it, your gimped.

04-07-2005, 07:11 PM	#12
aeio Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 267	Sorry but you are going to have to provide more evidence than saying sometimes someone always wins and sometimes someone never wins. I am sure they have checked the lotto system many times and it is doing what it is supposed to do. It is random, so it is quite likely that you will have some unusual patterns and swings over the short-term. Any given hunting session is very short-term in the scheme of things. If someone has NEVER won a lotto since release, or someone has won EVERY group lotto since release, you might have something. But going out with friends, whom you don't even know who is and is not lottoing on all items and because one guy wins 3 out of 4 of the items you wanted, even if you did win twice yourself but only got junk loot.. does not mean there is a problem with the lotto system. It simply means you were not lucky that time.

04-07-2005, 07:24 PM	#14
Big Da Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 201	aeiouy wrote: Katanari wrote: Burem wrote: This comes up alot and it's kind of rediculas. Let's say that I kill 300 giants an hour in my group and every one drops a single item. In a rotational system each person gets 50 items (300/6) every time. In a RANDOM system everyone gets a random number of items between 1 and 300. THIS IS THE NATURE OF RANDOM. Yes, true, if you lotto enough times it should average out but the nature of something being random is that it's RANDOM. Random does not mean "Each person gets exactly the same ammount of items after they have been judged based on their power" it means each person gets a RANDOM number of items. What about this is so hard to understand? I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that its random.. they are stating the fact the lotto system seems to sway to certain people in a group. I have witnessed this myself MANY times. I have even been in the shoes where I was winning everything and felt guilty so I started declining because I know how much it really stinks not to win anything. All we are asking for is a lotting system that is more fair to each player in the group. There have been numerous threads about new lotto systems. There have been some really good Ideas. I am confident SoE can come up with a better program for looting. So sometimes you win too much and sometimes you don't win enough. That proves the system is working just fine. No it proves that there is a random element. Some people dont want one person in a group to win loot consistantly. Even if now and again it is them. They are discussing who else has this problem. Which is very common. They are also stating how this makes loot bad becuase they would rather have a more equal distribution inside a group. Quick comments like yours help nobody.

04-07-2005, 07:39 PM	#15
Bur Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 106	1. Moorgard has responded to threads of this type already; he said random is random. 2. There is NO WAY a computer can generate a truely random string of numbers, they are getting as close as they can. It appears to me that everyone I meet "never wins loot" if that is the case as it appears to be then the system is working fine. I would -far- prefer they just added an automatic rotational looting system then spending months trying to tweak a random system that will never please everyone.

04-07-2005, 08:05 PM	#16
TheC Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 118	I don't see a problem with lotto, seems nice and random to me, sometimes I win alot sometimes I don't.

04-07-2005, 08:20 PM	#17
Mol General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 73	TheCoZ wrote: I don't see a problem with lotto, seems nice and random to me, sometimes I win alot sometimes I don't. Definately not the case, ive seen plenty groups where the same person or 2 people continually win ALL the chest drops. What you need to add in is a round robin loot system for chests only or fix the lotto. __________________ Seleth Silentdeath

04-07-2005, 08:28 PM	#18
Wamben General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 11	I propose they keep the lotto sytem but modify it: Perhaps the Lotto system should check to see who Wants the loot, then in the chat window, the lotto system will do a /random 100 for each player. Then the lotto system will say something like: "So and so wins {Item name} with a roll of 87" This way people will be able to see how the lotto system is actually playing out. So instead of feeling gyped every time an item is looted, they will be able to see what the margins certain players win / lose by. This also adds a little more flair to the system instead of just making it seem like the lotto system magically decides to give out loot to whoever it wants.

04-07-2005, 09:32 PM	#19
Pkac Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	I'm really not convinced that the 'lotto' is really a 'lotto'. I uderstand the arguments about how your brain see's patterns where there are none, but I am almost convinced that it has something to do with where your name fits alphabetically in the group order. My mains name begins with a B and I find that I seem to win a disproportionate amount of drops, except when I am in a regular group with a guildie who's name begins with A.... Like I said it may be nothing.

04-07-2005, 09:52 PM	#20
thepriz Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 219	There is another way to do the Loto thing. You can collect all the loot on one person they have them sell the loot for cash and then do a split. If a NO-TRADE item drops then everyone can do a /ran 200 and the one with the highest number wins the loot. Worked in EQ1 may work for you in EQ2. I plan to use this system in my guild. __________________

04-07-2005, 10:50 PM	#21
Jan It Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 142	Before anyone complains about the lotto system you should clearly learn something about statistics. We have two problems here, on the one hand the number of drops you get within 2 hours of gameplay is simply too small to even things out, as the quality in items differs way too much. Secondly all players are biased and irrational when it comes to their share. If your´re in a group with 6 players and you find 10 rares in a row the chances of not getting any aren´t so small, but if you won´t get a single one you´ll probably feel betrayed to the bone. As stated above, random is random, and if you would play infinite time and get infinite drops you´d see that you get EXACTLY the same loot as your fellow group members. __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IÂ´ll be back when combat revamp and DoF beta are REALLY done.

04-07-2005, 11:37 PM	#22
Pkac Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 83	Jan Itor wrote: Before anyone complains about the lotto system you should clearly learn something about statistics. We have two problems here, on the one hand the number of drops you get within 2 hours of gameplay is simply too small to even things out, as the quality in items differs way too much. Secondly all players are biased and irrational when it comes to their share. If your´re in a group with 6 players and you find 10 rares in a row the chances of not getting any aren´t so small, but if you won´t get a single one you´ll probably feel betrayed to the bone. As stated above, random is random, and if you would play infinite time and get infinite drops you´d see that you get EXACTLY the same loot as your fellow group members. The fact of the matter is that any computer generated algorithm for random numbers, is not in fact random. There are degrees of 'randomness' if you will. Also it's fairly easy to make a mistake in the implementation of the system that stops it from being Random at all. Besides, how does you argument stack up with my belief I win MORE than my fair share of drops, over time, in many groups? I'm not saying I'm convinced it's totally unfair, just that my observations thus far cause me to have some question of just how random it truely is.

04-08-2005, 12:12 AM	#23
Deft Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	I believe the lotto system to be pretty close to random if not totally. I understand that a computer is not random by nature, therefore any program that is used to randomize items are subject to having a bug. But as development has stated, they have made it as random as possible. I agree with the previous post who states that the amount of time we stay in a group is not a big enough set of data to say that the lotto system is broken, and I also think that humans by nature are bias in one sense or another. As part of human nature, we only notice when one guy is getting a huge percent of the loot and when the system seems broken. Do we ever pay attention when everything seems evenly distributed. Maybe sometimes you will say "oh, well..today seems like an evenly loot distributed day", but most times it'll get overlooked. However, if the distribution is slightly off, you will notice it right away. In general if one person feels that they seem to be pretty lucky or unlucky with loot..that is highly possible. Its not a totally impossible that one character at level 50 has lost 90% of hits lotto's and only won 10%. If he is playing in a group of 6, the average you should win is only 1/6, so 1/10th is not that much off. It is also possible that one character has practically won 30% of his lottos. If they group at all...it doesn't seem likely..but its all random, it could happen.

04-08-2005, 12:14 AM	#24
Pidgeon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	As they say......A million to one chance happens nine times out of ten :smileyhappy:

04-08-2005, 12:19 AM	#25
Meldari Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 15	Pkachu wrote: Besides, how does you argument stack up with my belief I win MORE than my fair share of drops, over time, in many groups? Perception is Random's evil sidekick.

04-08-2005, 01:03 AM	#26
TopHatJon Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 45	I think lotto is a little screwy but not as much as some people here. My problem is not that sometimes one person dominates it and another leaves empty handed.....that is bound to happen in random systems. My problem is that when there are multiple items, almost always the same person wins both items. It doesn't appear to treat the items individually most of the time.

04-08-2005, 01:08 AM	#27
Joos Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	BTW - there is no known observed instance of a random occurence of anything ever, let alone a computer simulation. So my vote would be a state machine that keeps weighting the outcome in the current top loosers favor down to the biggest winner having the least weight.

04-08-2005, 10:38 AM	#28
Timaarit Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,462	Just my idea: They ahould place the Need Before Greed option to the system. This way the lotto would be held between those who can use it now or in the future. Of course the problem comes with vendor junk as wizards cannot use heavy armor and would thus be shut out from most lottos. But for spells, skills and recipes this would be a good add.

04-08-2005, 11:01 AM	#29
Miele Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 231	After experiencing myself the "lotto issue", I started to parse it using Statalyzer. Same group hunting together all the time, most of the times I'm group leader and people get invited usually in a set order: my gf first, my coercer friend second and the other 2 friends playing with us, join in a non set order. 5 ppl group: 4th and 5th persons invited were usually getting most of the items, 3rd was getting a decent amount, group leader a couple and the 2nd invited almost none, 2-3 in total was a good night. When we inverted the order of invites, the lotto variance shifted to other ppl of the group, usually similar to the figures above. Anyway there are some considerations: - lotto doesn't distinguish between chest drops and body drops - for how absurd this could seem: the faster you click on "lotto all", the higher are your chances to get something (tested for over two nights, 12 hours or so). After 5 nights, or about 30 hours, the figures were: - group leader: 20 items - 2nd invited: 12 items - 3rd invited: 35 items - 4th invited: 75 items - 5th invited: 82 items Every night there was the same unbalance, aka the lottoed items were following the same distribution of the previous night. Given that lotto doesn't distinguish chest drops or body drops, it was also quite clear that person 4 and person 5 got the majority of chest drops (statalyzer records each single loot by name, hard to miss the obvious), we're talking about 50gp worth of loot vs 5gp... Since then we do Master Looting, lottoing on all body drops but splitting chest drops at the end of the night: it may take 15 minutes for a good night, but everyone walks away happy. EQ1 certified system. My consideration about group invite order and fast clicking are totally perceived by us five, the end result for assigned drops is not, it's parsed datas. I still think that group invite order has an impact on the good or bad luck my 0.02 € __________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "In war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left..."

04-08-2005, 12:47 PM	#30
badcan Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 13	http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tech_support&message.id=41833 (I guess I spend too much time perusing the forums since I remembered this one so vividly.) It's a bit dry, but have a read. [forum software chose to help me create a new thread instead of replying, but I posted here since this is where I intended it to be.]