A NO on NO-TRADE!

MyleeSilverwings · 04-01-2005, 09:27 PM

A huge resounding NO on No-Trade quest items! When I work long and hard on a quest, only to get an item that is not even usable by me, should I be forced to sell it to a merchant for a small amount of change? If you are going to implement this system, then make every single quest provide a full spectrum of choice of reward for every single class in the game. Stop being so fearful of twinking that you ruin the adventurer's chance of making enough money to maintain themselves. This is simply not fair and all it does is support tradeskillers one more time.

Vulking · 04-01-2005, 09:41 PM

I whole heartedly AGREE 100%!!!!!

I quested the item it is mine to do with as I please, whether that be use, sell, or trade to another player.

Tova · 04-01-2005, 09:45 PM

/agree 100%

Dub · 04-02-2005, 12:19 AM

This goes live, its the last straw for me. /bye SoE

Vindicis · 04-02-2005, 12:29 AM

Dubel wrote:

This goes live, its the last straw for me. /bye SoE

It's going live, so quit now and save your breath. I'm hoping this change will thin out some of the continuous whiners I see every 2 weeks (timed perfectly with each and every test patch) but I highly doubt it will.

antigravi · 04-02-2005, 12:29 AM

Agreed they are driving this game into the dirt with notrade crap and all this attunement crap..Talk about self destruction sheesh. bring back Verant so you sony guys know how to make a successful game..

Antigravity...

kr8ztwin · 04-02-2005, 12:42 AM

I think its a great idea. I'm no fanboi but they are doing what they can to level out the economy. As for attuning eq: that was very necessary because just months down the road the market would the market would have been so thick with eq no crafter or even adventurer would be able to make any sort of profit on these items. I think its great they are working so hard on fixing/imporiving and making new quests.

I also would like to say ppl b|tch and cry way to much on these boards. I would love to see more positive threads. :smileytongue:

Delzore · 04-02-2005, 02:47 AM

As I sit and think about this, I still agree its a good idea. But why?

If I do a quest, its not to get that reward item, or even the money. Its to get the experience. The cash rewards are nice, the items are nice. I can use them or sell them to a vendor. But I have completed the quest myself. Should I choose to wear the item, then everyone will know that I did the quest for the item.

I also wonder how much of this stuff being put in is being done now to combat the "markets" that have grown up in RL arround these games. The plat selling. The item selling. It is a start to combat those things. I see people just get all caught up in having the "BEST" items around on their character. Give me someone that knows how to play their character in my group any day over someone that just "looks" to be a good character based on what they have equipped..

BigNick0 · 04-02-2005, 08:15 PM

Instead of NO-TRADE why not make some quest items ONE-TRADE. Then if you complete a quest, you could sell it ONCE to someone who could use it. And then its done. The item has left the economy. Someone is USING it, and the person who recieved it as a reward has some money to show for his/her effort. BN0

Rijacki · 04-02-2005, 08:47 PM

Honesely, there are few quest rewards that you can get a higher payment from other players than you can get from an NPC because of the ease of doing those quests and so the plethora of items being dumped on the broker. For example, Swift Heel boots (I think that's what their called), the quest reward for one of the Watcher of the Fields series. The boots aren't bad, but so many people who can't or don't wear medium armor do the quest that the most you'll get from selling it on the broker is -maybe- a silver or two more than selling it to your wholesaler NPC (the highest return). But.... I still think they should raise the NPC purchase price on some of the quest rewards and that, in itself, would effectively weed out the broker sellers possibly even better than making them No Trade. If the change is being put in place to combat the item selling of places like IGE, then I am ALL for any effort done to kick the plat for real money sellers in the knees. In-game items should not have a higher value out of game than in (or even -any- value out of game, but I would be naive to think that everyone could agree with that). In addition, if this also means that more and better quest rewards can be offered, I am even more happy.

Altorus · 04-03-2005, 01:52 AM

If you make almost every item in the game no-trade then how are adventurers supposed to make any money to buy the overpriced (on my server crafted item prices are ridiculous) items that are for sale. You can say that I could always become a crafter & join the market that way, but I personally despise the crafting system in this game, & since I play this game for fun & enjoyment I won't do something that I don't enjoy.

PLEASE reconsider this change, my main source of income is selling the items that I cannot use on the market & you are taking away more than 1/2 of my income by doing this. Sure I can still sell adept books (when they drop which isn't as often as it should be) & the advanced crafting books that drop, but I have more than 40 advanced crafting books on my vendor which have been sitting there collecting dust cause they hardly sell (no I don't price gouge I set them below average market price) cause there are more advanced books on the market than crafters to buy them.

Either don't make this change or start putting coin drops on the mobs, once upon a time it almost made sense not to have coin drops cause selling non-useable items was a fairly good income, but since you are taking that away, adventurers like me (the ones that don't craft) will now be poor.

Demothis · 04-03-2005, 04:39 AM

For starters this is going live and there is no stoping it, maybe delaying but this is what they have in mind and this is what will happen. Now this change will have a positive change to the game. The game is not just about adventures but crafters as well. Coming from a player who is both I will state right here and now I have made more money as an adventure then as crafter. I have made not just a little bit more money, but alot more money as an adventurer, enough to supply 4 crafing characters into their level 30 range. Money donsn't even come in for most craters till they are in thier 30s because the crafted gear is junk in comparison to the commonly droped ones that adventurers are always selling. This shange will bring back some ballance to the non adventureing classes. Artisens cant go on raids, kill named mobs for those advanced books that they have to buy from adventurers. Heck if price is really a concen, go harvest for them and just pay for the fuel, most will do it if they can keep the left over pieces to save on the harvesting time. Making items isn't cheap, specialy after the last few live up dates, note everyone want to rip you off. Its not that I dont care, I'm just tired of hearing pure adventures belly ache, when they can just pawn the stuff on the vendors, and still make more money in less time then a crafter can. Crafting is not a throw it in and its done process, it is verry time consuming. As a 1/2 crafter, I have to go out, harvest which is alot of time, do an ecesive amounts of refines, and then I finally get to make finnish product. It takes me somewhere in the neiborhood of 45-60 1 min craftings to make a set of armor, that dosn't include the harvesting time and assuming they are all prestine. Then there are feul costs to consider as well. A sage at tier 5 will spend over a gold in fuel to make 1 spell.

Now there are some bright sides to this as an adventure too. Since the market will not be flooded with items that clober anything an artisen can make, the devs can start putting some really nice rewards with good sell back prices on them. Whats been holding the quest Items from being truely great is the fact that it will be placed on the market by someone and crafters wouldn't be able to compete with the flood of quest rewards. I would like to point out to devs though if it dose go live, please incorperate more of the setups where you can choose the quest reward, specially on the hard ones so that way folks going through it can get something they can use. There are still the droped items that can go on the market as well, feysteel kris is still my dirges favorite weapon, and thats not a quest item. The adepts which drop like candy screwing the scolars out of a decent market are still there. The master level drops. These rare drops are what have made my artisen the most money, not quested Items when anyone can run off and get. Case and Point, look at zek quest rewards, they are every where, its so you cant even sell the quested green hood gear anymoer without a feeble price, how is a tailor suposed to compete with that.

This is a good change for the game, it will take a little time, but in the end it will be worth it.

Edit: aww congradulations, you can 1 star, what a big boy. Now if you are ready to act like an adult, feel free to reply and debate the issue. Prove me wrong , Im always up for a frienly debate over opposing views.

Message Edited by Demothises on 04-02-2005 08:45 PM

DakiRo · 04-03-2005, 12:40 PM

You are forgetting that most people are playing EQ2 for adventuing, not crafting. I am a provisioner and I make my own drinks, but frankly it is a boring process which takes a very long time. And the prices for crafting items are very high, how are adventures supposed to afford them if they can't sell their stuff. Especially since most quest items are not usable or green or blue by the time you get them.

Homesli · 04-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Just on a curious note is everyone that is saying no trade just looking at the change and hating it or have they read what everything is leading up to and the other changes that this is starting?

San · 04-03-2005, 02:47 PM

SOE please just make all quest items and mob drop items no trade to maximize the crafter's profit. Then all adventurers will no income and no one will buy the crafter's items, that is a good ending.

Jeridor · 04-03-2005, 06:34 PM

MyleeSilverwings wrote:
A huge resounding NO on No-Trade quest items! When I work long and hard on a quest, only to get an item that is not even usable by me, should I be forced to sell it to a merchant for a small amount of change? If you are going to implement this system, then make every single quest provide a full spectrum of choice of reward for every single class in the game. Stop being so fearful of twinking that you ruin the adventurer's chance of making enough money to maintain themselves. This is simply not fair and all it does is support tradeskillers one more time.

While I realize you hate this change so much you don't even want to consider it may have some positive aspects, you did indeed fail to mention these positive aspects. Let me list a couple of reasons why this change could be a good thing for you, or others. 1. It will open the door for better quality items as quest rewards: The devs have stated that by ensuring you earn the item instead of just buying it, they can increase the quality of the items. It's clear they intend to make many rewards exceed tradeskilled items in relative power/desirability. 2. It will give further emphasis on flaws in quests: If more people are forced to quest to get valuable objects, flaws like super slow spawns or buggy zones where important spawns fall through the floor, etc, will be given more importance in the dev schedule. So, if you're a quester who has been frustrated by quests unnecessarily complicated by bugs or slow spawns, this change heralds an improvement for you in that regard. 3. A more balanced economy: If a larger number of a wide range of objects is for sale, the prices will lower. Currently some items are from hard quests and are somewhat rare. Making more common objects (tradeskilled or otherwise) the prime focus of the market has one immense benefit - a decrease in farmers and botters. The less game coin a farmer can get for the things farmed, the less desirable it is to farm. After all, they're just trying to get plats to sell for RL cash. Finally, it's worth noting that the only real grounds for objection to this change is laziness. ANYONE can complete these quests. If you're not willing to do so, I don't think you have grounds to complain. You're actively choosing to use lesser gear rather than quest. If you want the super good stuff, you'll have to get off your rump and go get it. I realize some people will feel if you have sufficient money you should be able to buy whatever you want, but it's never been this way in real life, in EQ2 or in any other major game I can personally think of. There are always some things that require more than money.

Culann Heartsto · 04-03-2005, 07:26 PM

Jeridor wrote:

MyleeSilverwings wrote:
A huge resounding NO on No-Trade quest items!

When I work long and hard on a quest, only to get an item that is not even usable by me, should I be forced to sell it to a merchant for a small amount of change?

If you are going to implement this system, then make every single quest provide a full spectrum of choice of reward for every single class in the game.

Stop being so fearful of twinking that you ruin the adventurer's chance of making enough money to maintain themselves. This is simply not fair and all it does is support tradeskillers one more time.

While I realize you hate this change so much you don't even want to consider it may have some positive aspects, you did indeed fail to mention these positive aspects. Let me list a couple of reasons why this change could be a good thing for you, or others.

1. It will open the door for better quality items as quest rewards: The devs have stated that by ensuring you earn the item instead of just buying it, they can increase the quality of the items. It's clear they intend to make many rewards exceed tradeskilled items in relative power/desirability.

2. It will give further emphasis on flaws in quests: If more people are forced to quest to get valuable objects, flaws like super slow spawns or buggy zones where important spawns fall through the floor, etc, will be given more importance in the dev schedule. So, if you're a quester who has been frustrated by quests unnecessarily complicated by bugs or slow spawns, this change heralds an improvement for you in that regard.

3. A more balanced economy: If a larger number of a wide range of objects is for sale, the prices will lower. Currently some items are from hard quests and are somewhat rare. Making more common objects (tradeskilled or otherwise) the prime focus of the market has one immense benefit - a decrease in farmers and botters. The less game coin a farmer can get for the things farmed, the less desirable it is to farm. After all, they're just trying to get plats to sell for RL cash.

Finally, it's worth noting that the only real grounds for objection to this change is laziness. ANYONE can complete these quests. If you're not willing to do so, I don't think you have grounds to complain. You're actively choosing to use lesser gear rather than quest. If you want the super good stuff, you'll have to get off your rump and go get it. I realize some people will feel if you have sufficient money you should be able to buy whatever you want, but it's never been this way in real life, in EQ2 or in any other major game I can personally think of. There are always some things that require more than money.

You can rationalize murder is okay if you want...same kinda rationalization as you're trying here...doesn't change the fact that it's still murder tho'.

This is a very poor change on SOE's part. You guys need to stop playing WoW (whenever it's up) so much, quite trying to emulate them, or copy their "laughs" (/smorgasbord) and start trying to make EQ2 -fun-, not a chore or unpleasant. So far, you're making EQ2 your show-toy to flex to the WoW designers with..it's not hard to see. You're making changes to match WoW's, without ever considering how the players feel about the changes. I don't appreciate this, and honestly if it persists, you are going to lose at least 2 customers over it...being my wife and I. And I can promise you I will continue to give you bad press so long as I breathe afterwards.

EQ1 was fun..Verant did a good job with that product. Please stop screwing about with EQ2 to the point you destroy the interest in the game. LISTEN to the players regarding stuff, instead of blindly..and I do mean blindly, making changes.

Demothis · 04-04-2005, 03:04 AM

DakiRoki wrote:
You are forgetting that most people are playing EQ2 for adventuing, not crafting. I am a provisioner and I make my own drinks, but frankly it is a boring process which takes a very long time. And the prices for crafting items are very high, how are adventures supposed to afford them if they can't sell their stuff. Especially since most quest items are not usable or green or blue by the time you get them.

They can offload quested gear on to the vendors. The devs have already talked about upping the prices and improving the quested gear, it may not happen right away, but this way they can w/o kill a crafting market. Most hings you buy from players at the moment are expensive faor a few reasons. One, there are some greedy crafters that over charge, ill admit this. But increased fuel costs, expensive recipes books, greedy adventures sell advanced books for too much, some have to hike prices up a little bit so they can affor thier stuff. You refered to being a provisioner, what if mobs started droping food and drink that surpassed what you can make on a regular basis. I have a provisioner amosnt others, and the provisioners end products have no rivals at the moment. Most equipment makers and spell crafter I talk to, and myself included, will be happy to make somthing for sombody at a fairly cheap cost if if the recipiant wants to cover the price of feuls, and aquire the materials. Why do they do that, its less time it takes them, and its an imidiate guarenteed sale, this wont be true for all of them, but most of them are reasonable.

At launch The to areas crafters and adventurers where ment to rely on 1 another to bring out the best in the game, these intentions where made very clear. If you look at the issue with the achemists something similar had happed, the alchs where intended to be a suplier to most artisens, well, alot of people made alchs and didn't. They sold back to the vendo making a profit, alot of greedy players over charged for the chems, and wham SOE makes it so thatso all classes can level. This dosn't mean all alchies did this, but enough did to cause the problem. There is now a Problem between the adventuring classes and artisens about needing to rely on 1 another. This is partialy fault due to the original desinie that alot of player made goods arnt as good as they shood and how common drop rates are, but there is some player fault as well. This is a step they belie will set the game to where they invisioned it trying to perserve the long haul of the game. I am not a fanboi by any means, but how many people that are complaining have played a same MMO for over 4 years? better ye lets say 3 years, the changes coming now and in the near future are being put in place to try to preserve the longevity of the game, not for the folks that are here and try it out, for for those who will be here 2 years from now, and makeing it so the people they bring into the game can share the same experiance as those who 1st steped foot in it as opposed to having absolutly everything handed to them. 4 years after EQ came out, if a person was new to the game starting out trying it, they would be horified if they didn't have friends helping them, inflaition on stuff was that bad. No one on thier own would have stood a chance to build a character up and get the spells they needed that where crafted only, or rare drips like good old C3. Should all of this been done befor launch, oh yea. But thing is is that the Dev team has to go by what SOE and its's buisness partners want on this project, if that means a deadline that is too soon, then they had to get the game where it was playable at launch. Is this gona be an easy simple transition, no but it should make things better in the long haul.

Altorus · 04-04-2005, 03:24 AM

You can argue that people can go quest for the items themselves rather than buying from the crafters, but that’s not true in every case. As has been stated here before most quest rewards are too low or not useable by most people. Ok so the answer to that is they are revamping quest rewards, when? In the MONTHS to come, who knows what that timeframe is exactly, could be anywhere from 1-12 months or more for all we know. How does that help us now? Aside from the fact that quest rewards are mostly junk for the lvl range, trying to find all the quests that you need to do in order to keep your gear up to date & then getting them done before the reward is below your lvl is next to impossible. Which means that there are times we will have no choice but to buy from the crafters with their inflated prices, how can we do that if we have no money as pure adventurers cause we can't sell the rewards that are useless to us.

All they are doing is saying you can't make money like this anymore without giving us a viable alternative, I'm all for buying from crafters, there are even a few honest ones out there. Unfortunately most of them are greedy, price gouging cheats & I think that’s where the real problem lies. If you are going to try to fix the economy, don't do it by simply taking income from one group of people (adventurers) & giving it to another group. That’s not fixing, that’s creating more of an imbalance. Of course I just won't buy from the price gougers, but on my server at least that’s a majority of the people & I can't be on 24/7 to check the market for the people that sell for a fair price.

Would cash drops from the mobs help, yes I think it might. But only if it’s a fair amount for the lvl of the mob you kill, obviously 2c off a lvl 30 mob is silly, but how much is fair? Who knows, not me but I do know they need to do something more than just take away a major source of adventurers income, they need give us a way to make money too otherwise how will we be able to buy those overpriced crafted items.

Andu · 04-04-2005, 03:30 AM

Culann Heartstone wrote:

You can rationalize murder is okay if you want...same kinda rationalization as you're trying here...doesn't change the fact that it's still murder tho'.

Way to over-dramatise there! The sky is falling ... the sky is falling ... panic !!!!!

As someone else said earlier, the number of quest rewards you can actually sell for more money than off NPC's is pretty limited. When you think about it, what is it you are actually losing when you consider:

a) SOE have indicated that the turn-in value of quested items is to be reviewed.

b) The quality of the rewards is going to go up and you get more choice about what the actual reward is.

Currently you waste your time running around doing quests, flogging the reward overnight (if your lucky - most of the time you just dump it on an NPC anyway) then buy some gear you can actually use.

With this change you might actually finish the quest and get something you want to use! What an innovation - rewards that you don't need to sell!

This is of course totally overlooking the fact that in return we also get offline trading. This means we dont have to leave our PC's on all night in the vain hope that the low population that plays off peak might be interested in some of our gear.

Actually, the more I think about it the more angry I get about the whiney minority that plague these forums and are so terrified of change that they simply refuse to acknowledge any benefits change will bring. Please please please at least accept that some aspects of the game at present are lousy and need to be reworked to make them more fun. While doing that, if you could come up with some useful alternatives instead of just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing then we might be able to get more positive stuff included in the game. (Someone somewhere suggested making items one-trade instead of no-trade which seemed like a good compromise).

Arjala1 · 04-04-2005, 03:55 AM

My opinion on this whole No Trade Issue is it is one more step closer to me scrapping the whole game. Not all of us like crafting I for one do not enjoy the crafting side of this game, I chose adventurer for a reason. Having said that there are only a few ways for an Adventurer to make money. One of them being selling items we have quested and outgrown which we can no longer do due to things being attuneable now. Another way is questing items which in some cases is an upgrade to what you have but in alot of cases you get an item which you cant use at all or have outgrown it so you can sell it on the market and make a small amount which you can put toward buying an upgrade or a spell. Once this No Trade goes through this way of earning money will go out the window as well leaving us adventurers either forced to craft or broke with an assortment of useless items staring at us in our banks which we can now sell to a NPC vendor for 1/10th of its worth. I know this sounds like i'm b!tching and whining and maybe i am but im so frustrated with what feels like an attack on people like me who really dont like to craft. attuning everything helped stabilize the economy enough imo leave the existing items tradeable that or increase the amount of coin recieved as part of your quest rewards, there has to be a trade off somewhere for us non crafters.

Arjala Skystriker

Nektulos Server

Cylently · 04-04-2005, 06:16 PM

I agree! NO to "No-Trade quested items" The moment I heard about thier plan, I immediately ordered WoW for a change... Yeah, maybe the economic system is some what similar, but atleast its not owned by SOE. :smileytongue: Next step is to cancel my Station Access. I cant wait for D&D online game to come out.

Fig · 04-04-2005, 07:26 PM

The attuneable feature was interesting to me at launch. Coming from EQ1 and watching uber raid loot rot on an epic mob corpse because there was nobody at the raid who could use the nodrop item was hard to swallow each and every time.

Having dropped and quested items sellable yet not TWINKable (with attunement) sure seemed like a nice, new, welcome idea.

Then they made it all attuneable. Well, it hurt me in the wallet when I had to start buying armor for 2, 5, 10g a piece, and sell it back for silver, but I thought about it and realized that SOE figured out they had screwed up with the crafted items. Yep, the market would surely be saturated with crafted gear super quick if everyone was able to use it and then hand it down.

So, I took the "nearly all items attuneable" patch in stride and learned to cope, congrats crafters, you got a little love from SOE.

Now they want to make nearly all QUESTED items no trade? Give me a break.

I'm level 49 and of my 17 total item slots (not counting activate and ammo) I am currently wearing 2, that's right TWO pieces of crafted gear. Five are heritage items, two were bought on the broker, one was a regular chest drop, and the REST are QUESTED pieces. In my experiences, other than Epic Master chest loot, quested gear is better than crafted gear, with a few exceptions. Part of that is money. I can't afford to buy ebon pieces or imbued armor/weapons since I seem to have the luck from hell on harvesting a rare. I also spend so much of my coin on playermade DRINK that I can never save up enough for gear. I wasn't able to sploit or abuse any of the "quick cash" features, I'm not a crafter, and I've not gotten myself one of those bot programs to let me macro a provisioner or alchemist to 50 while I'm sleeping, so I'm fairly well always broke.

Now, those of you who think this is being put in place to "level out the economy" might need to analyze it a little differently. Let's say I quest for some boots. I can't wear them (ex: no medium version of Drudo's kicking boots). Right now, I can either sell them to the vendor for a pawltry sum, or try to get some coin from another player and let them have the use of the item. If I sell it to the vendor, I've just created money. I've brought more money into the game, thus devaluing all existing money. However, if I sell them to a player, all that has happened is a transfer of money that was already in-game, no devaluation of existing in-game coin.

I don't believe this is SOE's intent since they've already gone so far to try and remove coin from the economy.

So, of the 2 possible scenarios, 1) increase purchase of crafted items or 2) remove coin from the economy, neither is viable with an "all no trade" patch.

Two things need to happen for me to buy more crafted gear. First and foremost is it needs to be better. If I can quest an item that's better, sorry crafter, you're outta luck. Second is I need to be able to make more money to afford these items. If vendor sellback prices stay as is, then I will actually become even more poor, since I do tend to make a tidy profit on the occasional quested item that I sell to a player. If the best I can do is 2g for a lvl 50 quest item, from a quest that's not even repeatable, well then you crafters are outta luck on that front too.

Now, one thing that will make this even worse is if they make crafted items better but don't up my sellback prices on my quested gear. I don't think I could find one honest crafter that could say "if they make the items better I will lower my prices." So, I have pretty much resigned myself to knowing that very soon, crafted gear will be even MORE out of reach financially.

It's called everQUEST yet they seem to want to stifle the desire to DO a quest. Yes, I, like many of you, do quests for the xp usually, but how many green/gray quests do I have in my book right now that I plan to finish? These quests will surely result in nearly zero xp at lvl 49, probably not enough coin to pay for my 60sp boat ticket to that lower zone, but maybe, just *maybe* it will net me an item that I might can sell to a player to a) make me some money and b) give someone else the use of the item.

I just can't figure out the real reason behind this move. Can anyone explain it to me? How is it beneficial to the game and its players?

Figgs

Fig · 04-04-2005, 07:47 PM

Anduri wrote:

As someone else said earlier, the number of quest rewards you can actually sell for more money than off NPC's is pretty limited. When you think about it, what is it you are actually losing when you consider:

Now, this is from a high-level perspective, so it may be skewed, but I'll do my best:

Fleet fingered ring, curn eye necklace, earring of blah (collection quest), necklace of flowing orbs (collection quest), shiny/pristine/glowing bracelets (collection quest), petrified eyes (collection quest), ancient slayer's ring, wolf fur bracer, robe of the invoker, withered totem of widdershins, monsoon, blood fire, bone razor, treedin's skinning knife, treedin's mystical symbol, and so on and so forth - these are consistently some of the best selling items on my server (unrest) - so to say the number of quests you can sell to players is limited might not be totally accurate

a) SOE have indicated that the turn-in value of quested items is to be reviewed.

b) The quality of the rewards is going to go up and you get more choice about what the actual reward is.

Both of your points should have, in my opinion, been taken care of BEFORE making nearly all items no trade. Sounds like SOE is putting the cart before the horse again. Doesn't sound like you're considering other decent rewards that I can't use. What is a Brigand supposed to do with a 10int necklace? Or those nice heavy armor boots? What will undoubtedly happen is this: I will complete a quest and get some junky reward or maybe even a GOOD reward that I can't use. Now that I can't even attempt to sell it to you, the vendor gets it for 2g. Next patch they either change the reward (to something I can and will use) or up the sellback prices. Poor me. Like I said, the rewards should be evaluated in depth BEFORE the no-trade patch.

Currently you waste your time running around doing quests, flogging the reward overnight (if your lucky - most of the time you just dump it on an NPC anyway) then buy some gear you can actually use.

With this change you might actually finish the quest and get something you want to use! What an innovation - rewards that you don't need to sell!

This is of course totally overlooking the fact that in return we also get offline trading. This means we dont have to leave our PC's on all night in the vain hope that the low population that plays off peak might be interested in some of our gear.

This has nothing to do with no-trade quest rewards. Other than the fact that I will no longer NEED offline trading since I very soon won't have any left over quested gear that I can even TRY to sell. I guess I could put the few adepts that I still have stored on a mule up yet again. Even though they never seem to sell. Could also sell those collection quest items, shards, bones, etc. Seriously, there will now be very little need for me to ever even open a broker selling window, since I'm not a crafter.

Actually, the more I think about it the more angry I get about the whiney minority that plague these forums and are so terrified of change that they simply refuse to acknowledge any benefits change will bring. Please please please at least accept that some aspects of the game at present are lousy and need to be reworked to make them more fun. While doing that, if you could come up with some useful alternatives instead of just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing then we might be able to get more positive stuff included in the game. (Someone somewhere suggested making items one-trade instead of no-trade which seemed like a good compromise).

Yes, I would love to have a change for the positive. I would just prefer that they fix the quests and items before making them no trade so that I don't complete a quest for a junky reward and then dump it on the vendor, only to have it made "better" or "more valuable" next week. Other than the hopes of them making quested items better or more vendor-valuable, I don't see anything positive that will come from this change. Can you give me examples? If they make crafted items better, quests will be nearly pointless from an item viewpoint. Crafted items will increase in price. Coin will be entering the game much more rapidly, thus devauling the coin we already have, which is counter to what SOE's already been trying to do, so what's going to have to happen is they will institute new or more severe means of draining coin from the economy. That boat ticket is about to go up, and that 8g I spent to mend my items from 80% is surely to double in the near future.

Edit: one more thing, you said:

Please please please at least accept that some aspects of the game at present are lousy and need to be reworked to make them more fun.

What are you saying is the "lousy aspect" that the no-trade patch is supposedly addressing? My guess is that you are a crafter and are hoping that notrade quest items will result in an increase in sales. I can see where this might happen, but my feeling is that it will happen only on a small scale. This is just my opinion, but, I feel that anyone that wants to buy crafted items right now already is. Those of us who can't afford them now will be less able to afford them very soon. Those of us who already wear more quested items than crafted will continue to do so, and especially when/if they increase the quality of the quest rewards. I can't believe crafters aren't shouting from the top of the Oracle Tower already about how this will hurt them.

Figgs

Message Edited by Figgs on 04-04-2005 09:02 AM

Fig · 04-04-2005, 08:11 PM

Delzore wrote:

As I sit and think about this, I still agree its a good idea. But why?

If I do a quest, its not to get that reward item, or even the money. Its to get the experience. The cash rewards are nice, the items are nice. I can use them or sell them to a vendor. But I have completed the quest myself. Should I choose to wear the item, then everyone will know that I did the quest for the item.

I also wonder how much of this stuff being put in is being done now to combat the "markets" that have grown up in RL arround these games. The plat selling. The item selling. It is a start to combat those things. I see people just get all caught up in having the "BEST" items around on their character. Give me someone that knows how to play their character in my group any day over someone that just "looks" to be a good character based on what they have equipped..

This will do nothing to combat 3rd party plat sales. Item sales, sure, but who buys items instead of plat? (I buy neither, it's a game, duh). If I'm part of a 3rd party plat farming team, I want coin. Quests are usually not repeatable, and I have to worry about selling the item to a player. That cuts into my plat farming time. I'd much rather have the coin upfront, or, camp the mobs that drop master loot in hopes of turning a quick profit on a really, really nice item. If you don't believe me, take a trip through some of the zones that are known to be full of plat campers. Why do you think these 6 players are always there, in the same spot, and still level 43? They've been there for weeks, surely they would have levelled by now? Or completed that quest for the "uber-plat-item_01" right? Nah, nodrop quest items won't slow down offline plat selling because qeust items aren't what make them their money.

There's also the issue of normal body loot being more of an influx of "new coin" into the game than quested items, or even normal chest drops for that matter. I can hunt in Permafrost all night and win maybe a single chest drop that isn't very good that I sell to the vendor for 2-5g. I will also have a bag full of body drops that sell for 23s-1.87g each. Almost without fail my body drop items (meat, teeth, hair, etc) always earn me more money than my other drops do.

Figgs

Suraklin · 04-04-2005, 08:14 PM

Cylently wrote:
I agree! NO to "No-Trade quested items"

The moment I heard about thier plan, I immediately ordered WoW for a change... Yeah, maybe the economic system is some what similar, but atleast its not owned by SOE. :smileytongue:

Next step is to cancel my Station Access.

I cant wait for D&D online game to come out.

Have a feeling DDO is going to own both WoW and EQ2 when it hits the stores. No boring crafting in the game. Multiclassing ability. Graphics look good. Not easy to get to max level in 2 weeks like WoW. I dunno much about D&D but it's not WoW and it's not EQ2 so it's worth trying.

Fig · 04-04-2005, 09:45 PM

5 stars for your sig

Demothis · 04-06-2005, 10:27 AM

Figgs, I'm not ragging on ya, but you seem to be missing some of the points here. They arn't getting rid of the ability sell the stuff that pops out of chests, or even raid mobs. They are making it so you can't sell or hand off quest items. And it is being exploited, perfect example is the collections quest. Look on the market and see ho may necklas of glowing orbs, then see how many are on the same person. There have been players who have been just harvesting the ?s. Then they move them over to newly created alts, and flood the market with them. The fey steel chest plate and and storm shield type items will still be on the market and buyable.

Demothis · 04-06-2005, 10:45 AM

Suraklin wrote:

Cylently wrote:
I agree! NO to "No-Trade quested items"

The moment I heard about thier plan, I immediately ordered WoW for a change... Yeah, maybe the economic system is some what similar, but atleast its not owned by SOE. :smileytongue:

Next step is to cancel my Station Access.

I cant wait for D&D online game to come out.

Have a feeling DDO is going to own both WoW and EQ2 when it hits the stores. No boring crafting in the game. Multiclassing ability. Graphics look good. Not easy to get to max level in 2 weeks like WoW. I dunno much about D&D but it's not WoW and it's not EQ2 so it's worth trying.

Go right ahead, no sweat off our back, but you are gona be disapointed. For starters it is an MMO, like any other MMO there are gona be bugs up the wazu. It is being made by ATARI who really has no expirence making an MMO, I would hold jugment until it actually comes out. If you got to level 50 in 2 weeks you may wish to actually get out of the house a bit, because there is a ton of content in this game which would be impossible to go through in that time frame.

DDO is gona be an adventure heavy MMO, also kinda forcing you into doing a large number of quests with a poor player market. So yea there will be little crafting, if this type of game peeks your intrest, then it may be for ya, just seems like a supped up version of diablo though. It wont be long until every Pally in that game is walking around with a holy avenger and any other type of item with no crafting involved. .And since it mimics the d20 versions, there will be a large diversity in characters, but this will cause the characters to be very limited in thier abilities heavily relying on groups of people and I guarentee if if you think solo has problems in this game D&D will slaughter you, the whole D20 system was designed for 4-6 people in mind..

If you are aware of D&D and how it works, you will also realize that the true gold of D&D cannot be mimiced by any MMO. Table top RPGs can alow for anything to happen only limited by the imagination of those involved, again this can't be mimiced by todays technology nor will be any time soon.

BlackHa · 04-06-2005, 01:23 PM

I agree with the proposed changes. Many of the reasons why have already been posted. Time for the camp/farmers to get over it.

Similar to a game of golf, the course managers expect you to play the hole and move on to the next. Allowing people to "play through" thier quests allows opportunity to everyone. Conversely, farming inhibits this. The proposed changes should provide some relief to the farming going on. The concept of greyed mobs without chests went a long ways to help on the matter, but there was still great incentive to place farmed items from greens/blues on the consignor. Of course there are those that will still farm just to sell to the NPC's, but the huge profit margin (and incentive) from farming should be greatly reduced.

04-01-2005, 09:41 PM	#2
Vulking Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 301	I whole heartedly AGREE 100%!!!!! I quested the item it is mine to do with as I please, whether that be use, sell, or trade to another player. __________________ Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "I can't shake him!" Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "There too close!.....ahhhhhhghh!!"

04-01-2005, 09:45 PM	#3
Tova General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	/agree 100% __________________ ~Tova/Kamilla~ GL of Storm Front Permafrost Server

04-02-2005, 12:29 AM	#5
Vindicis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 54	Dubel wrote: This goes live, its the last straw for me. /bye SoE It's going live, so quit now and save your breath. I'm hoping this change will thin out some of the continuous whiners I see every 2 weeks (timed perfectly with each and every test patch) but I highly doubt it will.

04-02-2005, 12:42 AM	#7
kr8ztwin Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 132	I think its a great idea. I'm no fanboi but they are doing what they can to level out the economy. As for attuning eq: that was very necessary because just months down the road the market would the market would have been so thick with eq no crafter or even adventurer would be able to make any sort of profit on these items. I think its great they are working so hard on fixing/imporiving and making new quests. I also would like to say ppl b\|tch and cry way to much on these boards. I would love to see more positive threads. :smileytongue: __________________

04-02-2005, 02:47 AM	#8
Delzore Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	As I sit and think about this, I still agree its a good idea. But why? If I do a quest, its not to get that reward item, or even the money. Its to get the experience. The cash rewards are nice, the items are nice. I can use them or sell them to a vendor. But I have completed the quest myself. Should I choose to wear the item, then everyone will know that I did the quest for the item. I also wonder how much of this stuff being put in is being done now to combat the "markets" that have grown up in RL arround these games. The plat selling. The item selling. It is a start to combat those things. I see people just get all caught up in having the "BEST" items around on their character. Give me someone that knows how to play their character in my group any day over someone that just "looks" to be a good character based on what they have equipped.. __________________

04-01-2005, 09:27 PM	#1
MyleeSilverwings Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 110	A huge resounding NO on No-Trade quest items! When I work long and hard on a quest, only to get an item that is not even usable by me, should I be forced to sell it to a merchant for a small amount of change? If you are going to implement this system, then make every single quest provide a full spectrum of choice of reward for every single class in the game. Stop being so fearful of twinking that you ruin the adventurer's chance of making enough money to maintain themselves. This is simply not fair and all it does is support tradeskillers one more time.

04-02-2005, 12:19 AM	#4
Dub Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 54	This goes live, its the last straw for me. /bye SoE

04-02-2005, 12:29 AM	#6
antigravi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 24	Agreed they are driving this game into the dirt with notrade crap and all this attunement crap..Talk about self destruction sheesh. bring back Verant so you sony guys know how to make a successful game.. Antigravity...

04-02-2005, 08:15 PM	#9
BigNick0 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	Instead of NO-TRADE why not make some quest items ONE-TRADE. Then if you complete a quest, you could sell it ONCE to someone who could use it. And then its done. The item has left the economy. Someone is USING it, and the person who recieved it as a reward has some money to show for his/her effort. BN0

04-02-2005, 08:47 PM	#10
Rijacki Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,842	Honesely, there are few quest rewards that you can get a higher payment from other players than you can get from an NPC because of the ease of doing those quests and so the plethora of items being dumped on the broker. For example, Swift Heel boots (I think that's what their called), the quest reward for one of the Watcher of the Fields series. The boots aren't bad, but so many people who can't or don't wear medium armor do the quest that the most you'll get from selling it on the broker is -maybe- a silver or two more than selling it to your wholesaler NPC (the highest return). But.... I still think they should raise the NPC purchase price on some of the quest rewards and that, in itself, would effectively weed out the broker sellers possibly even better than making them No Trade. If the change is being put in place to combat the item selling of places like IGE, then I am ALL for any effort done to kick the plat for real money sellers in the knees. In-game items should not have a higher value out of game than in (or even -any- value out of game, but I would be naive to think that everyone could agree with that). In addition, if this also means that more and better quest rewards can be offered, I am even more happy. __________________

04-03-2005, 01:52 AM	#11
Altorus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	If you make almost every item in the game no-trade then how are adventurers supposed to make any money to buy the overpriced (on my server crafted item prices are ridiculous) items that are for sale. You can say that I could always become a crafter & join the market that way, but I personally despise the crafting system in this game, & since I play this game for fun & enjoyment I won't do something that I don't enjoy. PLEASE reconsider this change, my main source of income is selling the items that I cannot use on the market & you are taking away more than 1/2 of my income by doing this. Sure I can still sell adept books (when they drop which isn't as often as it should be) & the advanced crafting books that drop, but I have more than 40 advanced crafting books on my vendor which have been sitting there collecting dust cause they hardly sell (no I don't price gouge I set them below average market price) cause there are more advanced books on the market than crafters to buy them. Either don't make this change or start putting coin drops on the mobs, once upon a time it almost made sense not to have coin drops cause selling non-useable items was a fairly good income, but since you are taking that away, adventurers like me (the ones that don't craft) will now be poor.

04-03-2005, 04:39 AM	#12
Demothis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Steamfont server Posts: 109	For starters this is going live and there is no stoping it, maybe delaying but this is what they have in mind and this is what will happen. Now this change will have a positive change to the game. The game is not just about adventures but crafters as well. Coming from a player who is both I will state right here and now I have made more money as an adventure then as crafter. I have made not just a little bit more money, but alot more money as an adventurer, enough to supply 4 crafing characters into their level 30 range. Money donsn't even come in for most craters till they are in thier 30s because the crafted gear is junk in comparison to the commonly droped ones that adventurers are always selling. This shange will bring back some ballance to the non adventureing classes. Artisens cant go on raids, kill named mobs for those advanced books that they have to buy from adventurers. Heck if price is really a concen, go harvest for them and just pay for the fuel, most will do it if they can keep the left over pieces to save on the harvesting time. Making items isn't cheap, specialy after the last few live up dates, note everyone want to rip you off. Its not that I dont care, I'm just tired of hearing pure adventures belly ache, when they can just pawn the stuff on the vendors, and still make more money in less time then a crafter can. Crafting is not a throw it in and its done process, it is verry time consuming. As a 1/2 crafter, I have to go out, harvest which is alot of time, do an ecesive amounts of refines, and then I finally get to make finnish product. It takes me somewhere in the neiborhood of 45-60 1 min craftings to make a set of armor, that dosn't include the harvesting time and assuming they are all prestine. Then there are feul costs to consider as well. A sage at tier 5 will spend over a gold in fuel to make 1 spell. Now there are some bright sides to this as an adventure too. Since the market will not be flooded with items that clober anything an artisen can make, the devs can start putting some really nice rewards with good sell back prices on them. Whats been holding the quest Items from being truely great is the fact that it will be placed on the market by someone and crafters wouldn't be able to compete with the flood of quest rewards. I would like to point out to devs though if it dose go live, please incorperate more of the setups where you can choose the quest reward, specially on the hard ones so that way folks going through it can get something they can use. There are still the droped items that can go on the market as well, feysteel kris is still my dirges favorite weapon, and thats not a quest item. The adepts which drop like candy screwing the scolars out of a decent market are still there. The master level drops. These rare drops are what have made my artisen the most money, not quested Items when anyone can run off and get. Case and Point, look at zek quest rewards, they are every where, its so you cant even sell the quested green hood gear anymoer without a feeble price, how is a tailor suposed to compete with that. This is a good change for the game, it will take a little time, but in the end it will be worth it. Edit: aww congradulations, you can 1 star, what a big boy. Now if you are ready to act like an adult, feel free to reply and debate the issue. Prove me wrong , Im always up for a frienly debate over opposing views. Message Edited by Demothises on 04-02-2005 08:45 PM __________________ Steamfont server (Marlys 32 Necro/50 Sage) (Fenthick 50 Dirge/50 Woodworker) (Demothises 33 Bruiser/50 Tailor) (Drakel 25 Defiler/ 30 Provisioner) (Krassith 34 Guardian) (Croke 26 Coercer)

04-03-2005, 12:40 PM	#13
DakiRo General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 11	You are forgetting that most people are playing EQ2 for adventuing, not crafting. I am a provisioner and I make my own drinks, but frankly it is a boring process which takes a very long time. And the prices for crafting items are very high, how are adventures supposed to afford them if they can't sell their stuff. Especially since most quest items are not usable or green or blue by the time you get them.

04-03-2005, 01:18 PM	#14
Homesli General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: England Posts: 140	Just on a curious note is everyone that is saying no trade just looking at the change and hating it or have they read what everything is leading up to and the other changes that this is starting? __________________

04-03-2005, 02:47 PM	#15
San Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	SOE please just make all quest items and mob drop items no trade to maximize the crafter's profit. Then all adventurers will no income and no one will buy the crafter's items, that is a good ending.

04-03-2005, 06:34 PM	#16
Jeridor Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 248	MyleeSilverwings wrote: A huge resounding NO on No-Trade quest items! When I work long and hard on a quest, only to get an item that is not even usable by me, should I be forced to sell it to a merchant for a small amount of change? If you are going to implement this system, then make every single quest provide a full spectrum of choice of reward for every single class in the game. Stop being so fearful of twinking that you ruin the adventurer's chance of making enough money to maintain themselves. This is simply not fair and all it does is support tradeskillers one more time. While I realize you hate this change so much you don't even want to consider it may have some positive aspects, you did indeed fail to mention these positive aspects. Let me list a couple of reasons why this change could be a good thing for you, or others. 1. It will open the door for better quality items as quest rewards: The devs have stated that by ensuring you earn the item instead of just buying it, they can increase the quality of the items. It's clear they intend to make many rewards exceed tradeskilled items in relative power/desirability. 2. It will give further emphasis on flaws in quests: If more people are forced to quest to get valuable objects, flaws like super slow spawns or buggy zones where important spawns fall through the floor, etc, will be given more importance in the dev schedule. So, if you're a quester who has been frustrated by quests unnecessarily complicated by bugs or slow spawns, this change heralds an improvement for you in that regard. 3. A more balanced economy: If a larger number of a wide range of objects is for sale, the prices will lower. Currently some items are from hard quests and are somewhat rare. Making more common objects (tradeskilled or otherwise) the prime focus of the market has one immense benefit - a decrease in farmers and botters. The less game coin a farmer can get for the things farmed, the less desirable it is to farm. After all, they're just trying to get plats to sell for RL cash. Finally, it's worth noting that the only real grounds for objection to this change is laziness. ANYONE can complete these quests. If you're not willing to do so, I don't think you have grounds to complain. You're actively choosing to use lesser gear rather than quest. If you want the super good stuff, you'll have to get off your rump and go get it. I realize some people will feel if you have sufficient money you should be able to buy whatever you want, but it's never been this way in real life, in EQ2 or in any other major game I can personally think of. There are always some things that require more than money.

04-03-2005, 07:26 PM	#17
Culann Heartsto Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 63	Jeridor wrote: MyleeSilverwings wrote: A huge resounding NO on No-Trade quest items! When I work long and hard on a quest, only to get an item that is not even usable by me, should I be forced to sell it to a merchant for a small amount of change? If you are going to implement this system, then make every single quest provide a full spectrum of choice of reward for every single class in the game. Stop being so fearful of twinking that you ruin the adventurer's chance of making enough money to maintain themselves. This is simply not fair and all it does is support tradeskillers one more time. While I realize you hate this change so much you don't even want to consider it may have some positive aspects, you did indeed fail to mention these positive aspects. Let me list a couple of reasons why this change could be a good thing for you, or others. 1. It will open the door for better quality items as quest rewards: The devs have stated that by ensuring you earn the item instead of just buying it, they can increase the quality of the items. It's clear they intend to make many rewards exceed tradeskilled items in relative power/desirability. 2. It will give further emphasis on flaws in quests: If more people are forced to quest to get valuable objects, flaws like super slow spawns or buggy zones where important spawns fall through the floor, etc, will be given more importance in the dev schedule. So, if you're a quester who has been frustrated by quests unnecessarily complicated by bugs or slow spawns, this change heralds an improvement for you in that regard. 3. A more balanced economy: If a larger number of a wide range of objects is for sale, the prices will lower. Currently some items are from hard quests and are somewhat rare. Making more common objects (tradeskilled or otherwise) the prime focus of the market has one immense benefit - a decrease in farmers and botters. The less game coin a farmer can get for the things farmed, the less desirable it is to farm. After all, they're just trying to get plats to sell for RL cash. Finally, it's worth noting that the only real grounds for objection to this change is laziness. ANYONE can complete these quests. If you're not willing to do so, I don't think you have grounds to complain. You're actively choosing to use lesser gear rather than quest. If you want the super good stuff, you'll have to get off your rump and go get it. I realize some people will feel if you have sufficient money you should be able to buy whatever you want, but it's never been this way in real life, in EQ2 or in any other major game I can personally think of. There are always some things that require more than money. You can rationalize murder is okay if you want...same kinda rationalization as you're trying here...doesn't change the fact that it's still murder tho'. This is a very poor change on SOE's part. You guys need to stop playing WoW (whenever it's up) so much, quite trying to emulate them, or copy their "laughs" (/smorgasbord) and start trying to make EQ2 -fun-, not a chore or unpleasant. So far, you're making EQ2 your show-toy to flex to the WoW designers with..it's not hard to see. You're making changes to match WoW's, without ever considering how the players feel about the changes. I don't appreciate this, and honestly if it persists, you are going to lose at least 2 customers over it...being my wife and I. And I can promise you I will continue to give you bad press so long as I breathe afterwards. EQ1 was fun..Verant did a good job with that product. Please stop screwing about with EQ2 to the point you destroy the interest in the game. LISTEN to the players regarding stuff, instead of blindly..and I do mean blindly, making changes. __________________ Tank's code of honor:: First in, last out. Die for the healers safety, whatever personal cost. Keep aggro, all of it, strive for it, all times, all places in which it matters. Fight hard, die harder.

04-04-2005, 03:04 AM	#18
Demothis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Steamfont server Posts: 109	DakiRoki wrote: You are forgetting that most people are playing EQ2 for adventuing, not crafting. I am a provisioner and I make my own drinks, but frankly it is a boring process which takes a very long time. And the prices for crafting items are very high, how are adventures supposed to afford them if they can't sell their stuff. Especially since most quest items are not usable or green or blue by the time you get them. They can offload quested gear on to the vendors. The devs have already talked about upping the prices and improving the quested gear, it may not happen right away, but this way they can w/o kill a crafting market. Most hings you buy from players at the moment are expensive faor a few reasons. One, there are some greedy crafters that over charge, ill admit this. But increased fuel costs, expensive recipes books, greedy adventures sell advanced books for too much, some have to hike prices up a little bit so they can affor thier stuff. You refered to being a provisioner, what if mobs started droping food and drink that surpassed what you can make on a regular basis. I have a provisioner amosnt others, and the provisioners end products have no rivals at the moment. Most equipment makers and spell crafter I talk to, and myself included, will be happy to make somthing for sombody at a fairly cheap cost if if the recipiant wants to cover the price of feuls, and aquire the materials. Why do they do that, its less time it takes them, and its an imidiate guarenteed sale, this wont be true for all of them, but most of them are reasonable. At launch The to areas crafters and adventurers where ment to rely on 1 another to bring out the best in the game, these intentions where made very clear. If you look at the issue with the achemists something similar had happed, the alchs where intended to be a suplier to most artisens, well, alot of people made alchs and didn't. They sold back to the vendo making a profit, alot of greedy players over charged for the chems, and wham SOE makes it so thatso all classes can level. This dosn't mean all alchies did this, but enough did to cause the problem. There is now a Problem between the adventuring classes and artisens about needing to rely on 1 another. This is partialy fault due to the original desinie that alot of player made goods arnt as good as they shood and how common drop rates are, but there is some player fault as well. This is a step they belie will set the game to where they invisioned it trying to perserve the long haul of the game. I am not a fanboi by any means, but how many people that are complaining have played a same MMO for over 4 years? better ye lets say 3 years, the changes coming now and in the near future are being put in place to try to preserve the longevity of the game, not for the folks that are here and try it out, for for those who will be here 2 years from now, and makeing it so the people they bring into the game can share the same experiance as those who 1st steped foot in it as opposed to having absolutly everything handed to them. 4 years after EQ came out, if a person was new to the game starting out trying it, they would be horified if they didn't have friends helping them, inflaition on stuff was that bad. No one on thier own would have stood a chance to build a character up and get the spells they needed that where crafted only, or rare drips like good old C3. Should all of this been done befor launch, oh yea. But thing is is that the Dev team has to go by what SOE and its's buisness partners want on this project, if that means a deadline that is too soon, then they had to get the game where it was playable at launch. Is this gona be an easy simple transition, no but it should make things better in the long haul. __________________ Steamfont server (Marlys 32 Necro/50 Sage) (Fenthick 50 Dirge/50 Woodworker) (Demothises 33 Bruiser/50 Tailor) (Drakel 25 Defiler/ 30 Provisioner) (Krassith 34 Guardian) (Croke 26 Coercer)

04-04-2005, 03:24 AM	#19
Altorus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	You can argue that people can go quest for the items themselves rather than buying from the crafters, but that’s not true in every case. As has been stated here before most quest rewards are too low or not useable by most people. Ok so the answer to that is they are revamping quest rewards, when? In the MONTHS to come, who knows what that timeframe is exactly, could be anywhere from 1-12 months or more for all we know. How does that help us now? Aside from the fact that quest rewards are mostly junk for the lvl range, trying to find all the quests that you need to do in order to keep your gear up to date & then getting them done before the reward is below your lvl is next to impossible. Which means that there are times we will have no choice but to buy from the crafters with their inflated prices, how can we do that if we have no money as pure adventurers cause we can't sell the rewards that are useless to us. All they are doing is saying you can't make money like this anymore without giving us a viable alternative, I'm all for buying from crafters, there are even a few honest ones out there. Unfortunately most of them are greedy, price gouging cheats & I think that’s where the real problem lies. If you are going to try to fix the economy, don't do it by simply taking income from one group of people (adventurers) & giving it to another group. That’s not fixing, that’s creating more of an imbalance. Of course I just won't buy from the price gougers, but on my server at least that’s a majority of the people & I can't be on 24/7 to check the market for the people that sell for a fair price. Would cash drops from the mobs help, yes I think it might. But only if it’s a fair amount for the lvl of the mob you kill, obviously 2c off a lvl 30 mob is silly, but how much is fair? Who knows, not me but I do know they need to do something more than just take away a major source of adventurers income, they need give us a way to make money too otherwise how will we be able to buy those overpriced crafted items.

04-04-2005, 03:30 AM	#20
Andu General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 578	Culann Heartstone wrote: You can rationalize murder is okay if you want...same kinda rationalization as you're trying here...doesn't change the fact that it's still murder tho'. Way to over-dramatise there! The sky is falling ... the sky is falling ... panic !!!!! As someone else said earlier, the number of quest rewards you can actually sell for more money than off NPC's is pretty limited. When you think about it, what is it you are actually losing when you consider: a) SOE have indicated that the turn-in value of quested items is to be reviewed. b) The quality of the rewards is going to go up and you get more choice about what the actual reward is. Currently you waste your time running around doing quests, flogging the reward overnight (if your lucky - most of the time you just dump it on an NPC anyway) then buy some gear you can actually use. With this change you might actually finish the quest and get something you want to use! What an innovation - rewards that you don't need to sell! This is of course totally overlooking the fact that in return we also get offline trading. This means we dont have to leave our PC's on all night in the vain hope that the low population that plays off peak might be interested in some of our gear. Actually, the more I think about it the more angry I get about the whiney minority that plague these forums and are so terrified of change that they simply refuse to acknowledge any benefits change will bring. Please please please at least accept that some aspects of the game at present are lousy and need to be reworked to make them more fun. While doing that, if you could come up with some useful alternatives instead of just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing then we might be able to get more positive stuff included in the game. (Someone somewhere suggested making items one-trade instead of no-trade which seemed like a good compromise). __________________

04-04-2005, 03:55 AM	#21
Arjala1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	My opinion on this whole No Trade Issue is it is one more step closer to me scrapping the whole game. Not all of us like crafting I for one do not enjoy the crafting side of this game, I chose adventurer for a reason. Having said that there are only a few ways for an Adventurer to make money. One of them being selling items we have quested and outgrown which we can no longer do due to things being attuneable now. Another way is questing items which in some cases is an upgrade to what you have but in alot of cases you get an item which you cant use at all or have outgrown it so you can sell it on the market and make a small amount which you can put toward buying an upgrade or a spell. Once this No Trade goes through this way of earning money will go out the window as well leaving us adventurers either forced to craft or broke with an assortment of useless items staring at us in our banks which we can now sell to a NPC vendor for 1/10th of its worth. I know this sounds like i'm b!tching and whining and maybe i am but im so frustrated with what feels like an attack on people like me who really dont like to craft. attuning everything helped stabilize the economy enough imo leave the existing items tradeable that or increase the amount of coin recieved as part of your quest rewards, there has to be a trade off somewhere for us non crafters. Arjala Skystriker Nektulos Server

04-04-2005, 06:16 PM	#22
Cylently Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	I agree! NO to "No-Trade quested items" The moment I heard about thier plan, I immediately ordered WoW for a change... Yeah, maybe the economic system is some what similar, but atleast its not owned by SOE. :smileytongue: Next step is to cancel my Station Access. I cant wait for D&D online game to come out.

04-04-2005, 07:26 PM	#23
Fig Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	The attuneable feature was interesting to me at launch. Coming from EQ1 and watching uber raid loot rot on an epic mob corpse because there was nobody at the raid who could use the nodrop item was hard to swallow each and every time. Having dropped and quested items sellable yet not TWINKable (with attunement) sure seemed like a nice, new, welcome idea. Then they made it all attuneable. Well, it hurt me in the wallet when I had to start buying armor for 2, 5, 10g a piece, and sell it back for silver, but I thought about it and realized that SOE figured out they had screwed up with the crafted items. Yep, the market would surely be saturated with crafted gear super quick if everyone was able to use it and then hand it down. So, I took the "nearly all items attuneable" patch in stride and learned to cope, congrats crafters, you got a little love from SOE. Now they want to make nearly all QUESTED items no trade? Give me a break. I'm level 49 and of my 17 total item slots (not counting activate and ammo) I am currently wearing 2, that's right TWO pieces of crafted gear. Five are heritage items, two were bought on the broker, one was a regular chest drop, and the REST are QUESTED pieces. In my experiences, other than Epic Master chest loot, quested gear is better than crafted gear, with a few exceptions. Part of that is money. I can't afford to buy ebon pieces or imbued armor/weapons since I seem to have the luck from hell on harvesting a rare. I also spend so much of my coin on playermade DRINK that I can never save up enough for gear. I wasn't able to sploit or abuse any of the "quick cash" features, I'm not a crafter, and I've not gotten myself one of those bot programs to let me macro a provisioner or alchemist to 50 while I'm sleeping, so I'm fairly well always broke. Now, those of you who think this is being put in place to "level out the economy" might need to analyze it a little differently. Let's say I quest for some boots. I can't wear them (ex: no medium version of Drudo's kicking boots). Right now, I can either sell them to the vendor for a pawltry sum, or try to get some coin from another player and let them have the use of the item. If I sell it to the vendor, I've just created money. I've brought more money into the game, thus devaluing all existing money. However, if I sell them to a player, all that has happened is a transfer of money that was already in-game, no devaluation of existing in-game coin. I don't believe this is SOE's intent since they've already gone so far to try and remove coin from the economy. So, of the 2 possible scenarios, 1) increase purchase of crafted items or 2) remove coin from the economy, neither is viable with an "all no trade" patch. Two things need to happen for me to buy more crafted gear. First and foremost is it needs to be better. If I can quest an item that's better, sorry crafter, you're outta luck. Second is I need to be able to make more money to afford these items. If vendor sellback prices stay as is, then I will actually become even more poor, since I do tend to make a tidy profit on the occasional quested item that I sell to a player. If the best I can do is 2g for a lvl 50 quest item, from a quest that's not even repeatable, well then you crafters are outta luck on that front too. Now, one thing that will make this even worse is if they make crafted items better but don't up my sellback prices on my quested gear. I don't think I could find one honest crafter that could say "if they make the items better I will lower my prices." So, I have pretty much resigned myself to knowing that very soon, crafted gear will be even MORE out of reach financially. It's called everQUEST yet they seem to want to stifle the desire to DO a quest. Yes, I, like many of you, do quests for the xp usually, but how many green/gray quests do I have in my book right now that I plan to finish? These quests will surely result in nearly zero xp at lvl 49, probably not enough coin to pay for my 60sp boat ticket to that lower zone, but maybe, just maybe it will net me an item that I might can sell to a player to a) make me some money and b) give someone else the use of the item. I just can't figure out the real reason behind this move. Can anyone explain it to me? How is it beneficial to the game and its players? Figgs

04-04-2005, 07:47 PM	#24
Fig Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	Anduri wrote: As someone else said earlier, the number of quest rewards you can actually sell for more money than off NPC's is pretty limited. When you think about it, what is it you are actually losing when you consider: Now, this is from a high-level perspective, so it may be skewed, but I'll do my best: Fleet fingered ring, curn eye necklace, earring of blah (collection quest), necklace of flowing orbs (collection quest), shiny/pristine/glowing bracelets (collection quest), petrified eyes (collection quest), ancient slayer's ring, wolf fur bracer, robe of the invoker, withered totem of widdershins, monsoon, blood fire, bone razor, treedin's skinning knife, treedin's mystical symbol, and so on and so forth - these are consistently some of the best selling items on my server (unrest) - so to say the number of quests you can sell to players is limited might not be totally accurate a) SOE have indicated that the turn-in value of quested items is to be reviewed. b) The quality of the rewards is going to go up and you get more choice about what the actual reward is. Both of your points should have, in my opinion, been taken care of BEFORE making nearly all items no trade. Sounds like SOE is putting the cart before the horse again. Doesn't sound like you're considering other decent rewards that I can't use. What is a Brigand supposed to do with a 10int necklace? Or those nice heavy armor boots? What will undoubtedly happen is this: I will complete a quest and get some junky reward or maybe even a GOOD reward that I can't use. Now that I can't even attempt to sell it to you, the vendor gets it for 2g. Next patch they either change the reward (to something I can and will use) or up the sellback prices. Poor me. Like I said, the rewards should be evaluated in depth BEFORE the no-trade patch. Currently you waste your time running around doing quests, flogging the reward overnight (if your lucky - most of the time you just dump it on an NPC anyway) then buy some gear you can actually use. With this change you might actually finish the quest and get something you want to use! What an innovation - rewards that you don't need to sell! This is of course totally overlooking the fact that in return we also get offline trading. This means we dont have to leave our PC's on all night in the vain hope that the low population that plays off peak might be interested in some of our gear. This has nothing to do with no-trade quest rewards. Other than the fact that I will no longer NEED offline trading since I very soon won't have any left over quested gear that I can even TRY to sell. I guess I could put the few adepts that I still have stored on a mule up yet again. Even though they never seem to sell. Could also sell those collection quest items, shards, bones, etc. Seriously, there will now be very little need for me to ever even open a broker selling window, since I'm not a crafter. Actually, the more I think about it the more angry I get about the whiney minority that plague these forums and are so terrified of change that they simply refuse to acknowledge any benefits change will bring. Please please please at least accept that some aspects of the game at present are lousy and need to be reworked to make them more fun. While doing that, if you could come up with some useful alternatives instead of just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing then we might be able to get more positive stuff included in the game. (Someone somewhere suggested making items one-trade instead of no-trade which seemed like a good compromise). Yes, I would love to have a change for the positive. I would just prefer that they fix the quests and items before making them no trade so that I don't complete a quest for a junky reward and then dump it on the vendor, only to have it made "better" or "more valuable" next week. Other than the hopes of them making quested items better or more vendor-valuable, I don't see anything positive that will come from this change. Can you give me examples? If they make crafted items better, quests will be nearly pointless from an item viewpoint. Crafted items will increase in price. Coin will be entering the game much more rapidly, thus devauling the coin we already have, which is counter to what SOE's already been trying to do, so what's going to have to happen is they will institute new or more severe means of draining coin from the economy. That boat ticket is about to go up, and that 8g I spent to mend my items from 80% is surely to double in the near future. Edit: one more thing, you said: Please please please at least accept that some aspects of the game at present are lousy and need to be reworked to make them more fun. What are you saying is the "lousy aspect" that the no-trade patch is supposedly addressing? My guess is that you are a crafter and are hoping that notrade quest items will result in an increase in sales. I can see where this might happen, but my feeling is that it will happen only on a small scale. This is just my opinion, but, I feel that anyone that wants to buy crafted items right now already is. Those of us who can't afford them now will be less able to afford them very soon. Those of us who already wear more quested items than crafted will continue to do so, and especially when/if they increase the quality of the quest rewards. I can't believe crafters aren't shouting from the top of the Oracle Tower already about how this will hurt them. Figgs Message Edited by Figgs on 04-04-2005 09:02 AM

04-04-2005, 08:11 PM	#25
Fig Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	Delzore wrote: As I sit and think about this, I still agree its a good idea. But why? If I do a quest, its not to get that reward item, or even the money. Its to get the experience. The cash rewards are nice, the items are nice. I can use them or sell them to a vendor. But I have completed the quest myself. Should I choose to wear the item, then everyone will know that I did the quest for the item. I also wonder how much of this stuff being put in is being done now to combat the "markets" that have grown up in RL arround these games. The plat selling. The item selling. It is a start to combat those things. I see people just get all caught up in having the "BEST" items around on their character. Give me someone that knows how to play their character in my group any day over someone that just "looks" to be a good character based on what they have equipped.. This will do nothing to combat 3rd party plat sales. Item sales, sure, but who buys items instead of plat? (I buy neither, it's a game, duh). If I'm part of a 3rd party plat farming team, I want coin. Quests are usually not repeatable, and I have to worry about selling the item to a player. That cuts into my plat farming time. I'd much rather have the coin upfront, or, camp the mobs that drop master loot in hopes of turning a quick profit on a really, really nice item. If you don't believe me, take a trip through some of the zones that are known to be full of plat campers. Why do you think these 6 players are always there, in the same spot, and still level 43? They've been there for weeks, surely they would have levelled by now? Or completed that quest for the "uber-plat-item_01" right? Nah, nodrop quest items won't slow down offline plat selling because qeust items aren't what make them their money. There's also the issue of normal body loot being more of an influx of "new coin" into the game than quested items, or even normal chest drops for that matter. I can hunt in Permafrost all night and win maybe a single chest drop that isn't very good that I sell to the vendor for 2-5g. I will also have a bag full of body drops that sell for 23s-1.87g each. Almost without fail my body drop items (meat, teeth, hair, etc) always earn me more money than my other drops do. Figgs

04-04-2005, 08:14 PM	#26
Suraklin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 350	Cylently wrote: I agree! NO to "No-Trade quested items" The moment I heard about thier plan, I immediately ordered WoW for a change... Yeah, maybe the economic system is some what similar, but atleast its not owned by SOE. :smileytongue: Next step is to cancel my Station Access. I cant wait for D&D online game to come out. Have a feeling DDO is going to own both WoW and EQ2 when it hits the stores. No boring crafting in the game. Multiclassing ability. Graphics look good. Not easy to get to max level in 2 weeks like WoW. I dunno much about D&D but it's not WoW and it's not EQ2 so it's worth trying. __________________ Relax...it's just an update for the patch to fix the nerf that nerfed the fix for the update of the patch that broke the fix that was fixed on the previous nerf they called an update... Friends don't let friends ask for another classes nerf.

04-04-2005, 09:45 PM	#27
Fig Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	5 stars for your sig

04-06-2005, 10:27 AM	#28
Demothis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Steamfont server Posts: 109	Figgs, I'm not ragging on ya, but you seem to be missing some of the points here. They arn't getting rid of the ability sell the stuff that pops out of chests, or even raid mobs. They are making it so you can't sell or hand off quest items. And it is being exploited, perfect example is the collections quest. Look on the market and see ho may necklas of glowing orbs, then see how many are on the same person. There have been players who have been just harvesting the ?s. Then they move them over to newly created alts, and flood the market with them. The fey steel chest plate and and storm shield type items will still be on the market and buyable. __________________ Steamfont server (Marlys 32 Necro/50 Sage) (Fenthick 50 Dirge/50 Woodworker) (Demothises 33 Bruiser/50 Tailor) (Drakel 25 Defiler/ 30 Provisioner) (Krassith 34 Guardian) (Croke 26 Coercer)

04-06-2005, 10:45 AM	#29
Demothis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Steamfont server Posts: 109	Suraklin wrote: Cylently wrote: I agree! NO to "No-Trade quested items" The moment I heard about thier plan, I immediately ordered WoW for a change... Yeah, maybe the economic system is some what similar, but atleast its not owned by SOE. :smileytongue: Next step is to cancel my Station Access. I cant wait for D&D online game to come out. Have a feeling DDO is going to own both WoW and EQ2 when it hits the stores. No boring crafting in the game. Multiclassing ability. Graphics look good. Not easy to get to max level in 2 weeks like WoW. I dunno much about D&D but it's not WoW and it's not EQ2 so it's worth trying. Go right ahead, no sweat off our back, but you are gona be disapointed. For starters it is an MMO, like any other MMO there are gona be bugs up the wazu. It is being made by ATARI who really has no expirence making an MMO, I would hold jugment until it actually comes out. If you got to level 50 in 2 weeks you may wish to actually get out of the house a bit, because there is a ton of content in this game which would be impossible to go through in that time frame. DDO is gona be an adventure heavy MMO, also kinda forcing you into doing a large number of quests with a poor player market. So yea there will be little crafting, if this type of game peeks your intrest, then it may be for ya, just seems like a supped up version of diablo though. It wont be long until every Pally in that game is walking around with a holy avenger and any other type of item with no crafting involved. .And since it mimics the d20 versions, there will be a large diversity in characters, but this will cause the characters to be very limited in thier abilities heavily relying on groups of people and I guarentee if if you think solo has problems in this game D&D will slaughter you, the whole D20 system was designed for 4-6 people in mind.. If you are aware of D&D and how it works, you will also realize that the true gold of D&D cannot be mimiced by any MMO. Table top RPGs can alow for anything to happen only limited by the imagination of those involved, again this can't be mimiced by todays technology nor will be any time soon. __________________ Steamfont server (Marlys 32 Necro/50 Sage) (Fenthick 50 Dirge/50 Woodworker) (Demothises 33 Bruiser/50 Tailor) (Drakel 25 Defiler/ 30 Provisioner) (Krassith 34 Guardian) (Croke 26 Coercer)

04-06-2005, 01:23 PM	#30
BlackHa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 49	I agree with the proposed changes. Many of the reasons why have already been posted. Time for the camp/farmers to get over it. Similar to a game of golf, the course managers expect you to play the hole and move on to the next. Allowing people to "play through" thier quests allows opportunity to everyone. Conversely, farming inhibits this. The proposed changes should provide some relief to the farming going on. The concept of greyed mobs without chests went a long ways to help on the matter, but there was still great incentive to place farmed items from greens/blues on the consignor. Of course there are those that will still farm just to sell to the NPC's, but the huge profit margin (and incentive) from farming should be greatly reduced.