When will all tanks be "equal" on high-level raid mobs? - Page 10

DTJay · 03-05-2005, 03:23 AM

Paladin here.

All things equal, a Guardian should be the MT over a similiarly situated Fighter class. I'm not sure that anyone ever "promised" that all tank classes would be EXACTLY equal. Obviously, a Guardian whose main focus is on mitigation and defense would tank better as far as straight damage absorbtion.

My paladin has heals/wards etc to compensate for his inability to absorb as much damage. Bruiser/monk is harder to hit. End of the day Guardians are by design damage absorbers which by design works better on raid mobs.

My first point is that nobody promised exact equality.

My second point is that certain people being elitest on raids shouldn't influence you. Raid with your friends, guild, or a pickup group. If they're being snobs and won't let you along then to heck with em - find a group that will have you.

Aliaswa · 03-05-2005, 04:02 AM

sidgb wrote:
Gage-Mikel wrote:

Wow go figure. The "current balance" has their class as the best. I'd like that "balance" too.

Actually we are the worst class. Our DPS sucks. And we still think we are balanced.

Oops, I keep forgetting, that doesn't count.

Sorry to bother everyone. nothing to see here. Gage must be correct, there I go complaining about my DPS.
Message Edited by sidgb on 03-04-2005 04:14 PM

There you going bashing someone. stick to the subject!So Sidgb are you saying monks are never suppost to be MT tanks?Cause last I check all fighters were suppost to be.See you guardians keep missing the point of a fighter.We are all suppost to be able to fill the roll of MT.Thats cool that you can tank better but it shouldn't be 200X better than the other fighters.There is a huge gap between each of the fighter classes. (in tanking because were all suppost to be tank)Is there a LVL25-26 guardian on oggok server so you can group we me and see for yourself?You pick the target and I show how quickly I die and you see how you are barely touched.Cause this is going no where.DEVS are you there?Pumx LVL26 MONK oggok

Garana Manskinn · 03-05-2005, 04:52 AM

hrmm, thats funny, first monk i seen complain about tanking in exp groups.

All of them have said they are adequate in that department. I guess your one of the rare ones that cannot tank at all?

Gaige · 03-05-2005, 05:04 AM

Garana Manskinner wrote:

hrmm, thats funny, first monk i seen complain about tanking in exp groups.

All of them have said they are adequate in that department. I guess your one of the rare ones that cannot tank at all?

We are adequate in that department, proved by the fact I MT'd my way from lvl 1 on the isle to lvl 50 in Permafrost. I never said we weren't.

Ay · 03-05-2005, 05:06 PM

Well.. it looks like Gage has succeeded in making this thread over 11 pages. Therefore, making it look important to Devs. And now he finally admits his MT abilities are adequate. He admits he MT'd his way to 50, in the short time that EQ2 has been out! If it was a tough path, it would have taken longer, or people would have insisted that he dont MT. He must be a good MT. But that's just not good enough. He wants to be the BEST MT, BEST DPS, BEST UTILITY fighter in the game.

Support your local Guardian.. all they ever wanted was to bleed, so that you dont have to.

Troodon · 03-05-2005, 06:47 PM

Before this thread ends up going too far off topic, may I just remind anyone whom has bothered to read this far that all this angst is focused about the plea for non Guardian fighters to be desirable to invite on raids. Be it either to have some role other than guardian sidekick (even if its just in specific situations), or to (sigh) develop into good enough sidekick/squire/support-class to be desirable on raids, that is to step beyond the dreaded off-tank title that seems to equate to "raid slot filler if we cant find another dps/healer/nuker" weather in truth or perception.

Legat · 03-05-2005, 07:27 PM

Wow, these threads will not die...

A couple things here from my point of view ( I play a Guardian):

1. Raid invites, if you are so worried about it, join a guild show them what you can do, and you will get invited to raids plain and simple. If you are not very good at your class it is not the classes fault it is the players.

2. If you (as a monk, bruiser, sk, pally, zerker) want to be able to tank like a guardian and are willing to give up your dps, spells, heals, fd, etc... then well uhh make a guardian.

These threads get out of hand in a hurry like this one did. I run a guild that has a couple zerker's, and a couple bruisers, they can tank normal XP mobs just fine. However, they (bruisers and zerkers dont know much about the other classes) bring something to the table that I really can't in XP groups, DPS. Yeah I know my DPS contributes but it is not near what either of theirs is. Players on the server I play on are starting to realize this and monks/bruisers/zerkers can get into groups easier than guardians. I say this because monks/bruisers/zerkers can fill two roles in the party dps or tank both of which they do well. Guardians, however, do one thing well and that is to take a beating. Now, if SoE decides to beef of monks to tank like guardians where does that put guardians? Worse off than warriors were in EQ1 which is where they do not want to go. At least in EQ1 warriors were the raid tank 90% of the time. Which is where this game will hopefully not be going when people realize what the other classes can do. If this is something you cannot live with because you feel SoE lied to you well then I think you are playing the wrong game. Some of you are asking all fighter classes to be equal, then why not just have one class called a fighter?

The game is young, let it grow please. Most of the folks in EQ2 just switched over from EQ1 and are playing EQ2 like they did EQ1. This is what they know how to do, how to play. Why? Becasue the majority of them played EQ1 for 3+ years. Time will bring us different strats and ideas and ways to do things, but as of right now people are playing and doing what they know will work, time will change this. Well, time and some curious players experimenting a little.

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 12:43 AM

Legatto wrote:

Wow, these threads will not die...

A couple things here from my point of view ( I play a Guardian):

1. Raid invites, if you are so worried about it, join a guild show them what you can do, and you will get invited to raids plain and simple. If you are not very good at your class it is not the classes fault it is the players.

2. If you (as a monk, bruiser, sk, pally, zerker) want to be able to tank like a guardian and are willing to give up your dps, spells, heals, fd, etc... then well uhh make a guardian.

These threads get out of hand in a hurry like this one did. I run a guild that has a couple zerker's, and a couple bruisers, they can tank normal XP mobs just fine. However, they (bruisers and zerkers dont know much about the other classes) bring something to the table that I really can't in XP groups, DPS. Yeah I know my DPS contributes but it is not near what either of theirs is. Players on the server I play on are starting to realize this and monks/bruisers/zerkers can get into groups easier than guardians. I say this because monks/bruisers/zerkers can fill two roles in the party dps or tank both of which they do well. Guardians, however, do one thing well and that is to take a beating. Now, if SoE decides to beef of monks to tank like guardians where does that put guardians? Worse off than warriors were in EQ1 which is where they do not want to go. At least in EQ1 warriors were the raid tank 90% of the time. Which is where this game will hopefully not be going when people realize what the other classes can do. If this is something you cannot live with because you feel SoE lied to you well then I think you are playing the wrong game. Some of you are asking all fighter classes to be equal, then why not just have one class called a fighter?

The game is young, let it grow please. Most of the folks in EQ2 just switched over from EQ1 and are playing EQ2 like they did EQ1. This is what they know how to do, how to play. Why? Becasue the majority of them played EQ1 for 3+ years. Time will bring us different strats and ideas and ways to do things, but as of right now people are playing and doing what they know will work, time will change this. Well, time and some curious players experimenting a little.

Step 1: Read the title of the thread.

Step 2: Consider the question asked by the title of the thread.

Step 3: Realize that currently all fighter classes can tank in xp groups from 1 to 50. Despite the fact that monks have higher DPS plenty of guardians are out there tanking for xp just fine and dinging 50 daily.

Step 4: Read the actual posts people make and do not skim them, and thus automatically assume they are asking to be "the best".

Step 5: Read the title of the thread again.

Step 6: Realize that in xp groups from 1 to 50 all tanks are interchangeable (but the guardian still has the advantage in pure tanking). Although the guardian is "the best" it isn't by an amount that makes tanking an impossibility for the other fighters.

Step 7: Realize that in the normal game from 1 to 50, fighters are balanced. Guardians have the most defense, monks have the most DPS, but they can both adequately tank for their groups from 1 to 50.

Step 8: Realize that in the normal xp game, all fighters are balanced (pending small fixes to every class).

Step 9: Read the title of the thread again.

Step 10: Realize that balancing raids so that all fighters can tank them (even if one is "better" ~ which would be the guardian) would just finish up the current balance the game already experiences. Given that raids are way less frequent than the xp game, and considering that the xp game balances allows for all fighters to tank, it should be a given that making raids tankable by all fighters wouldn't hurt any of the classes.

Step 11: Let the realization soak in that other fighters aren't asking to nerf guardians.

Step 12: Play the game and quit posting in the same threads over and over (I need to take this advice myself).

Cliff Notes: Balancing raids to be in line with every other mob in the game (tankable by all fighters, although some are better than others) would just be putting the finishing touches on overall fighter balance.

pillb · 03-06-2005, 10:51 AM

Lol No.If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content].Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your DPS utilities AND tank the best..

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-05-2005 09:58 PM

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 10:59 AM

pillbub wrote:
Lol No.

If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content].

Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your DPS utilities AND tank the best.

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-05-2005 09:56 PM

How does it feel being unable to read?

Anyway we are asking to be able to tank raid content, not be better than guardians.

All fighter classes can already tank all other areas of the games, so balancing raids is all that's left to do.

pillb · 03-06-2005, 11:29 AM

It wouldnt be balance if Monks tanked uber Raid stuff. That is basically the only thing Guardian has going for it is Raids. Any fighter can tank in a EXP group so why pick a guardian? People've explained why but you wont freaking Listen.If Monks kept their skills AND tanked raid stuff then guardians get nothing while monks get to tank and have dps on raids.The only reason youre posting your Monks should MT crap here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks disagreed with you in Your 'My Fellow Monks' 'Thread'. You dont get dps utilities AND get to tank. You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you because they dont want their class DPS/Utilities/Versitility nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do YouYOUR THREAD --> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541Of course you dont.You only hear Moorguards statement the one he made 3 years ago.., Right?

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 08:53 PM

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 12:22 PM

pillbub wrote:
It wouldnt be balance if Monks tanked uber Raid stuff. That is basically the only thing Guardian has going for it is Raids. Any fighter can tank in a EXP group so why pick a guardian? People've explained why but you wont freaking Listen.

If Monks kept their skills AND tanked raid stuff then guardians get nothing.

The only reason youre posting your Monks should MT crap here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks disagreed with you in Your 'My Fellow Monks' thread. You dont get dps utilities AND get to tank. You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG. They dont want their classes DPS and utilites nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do You

YOUR THREAD --> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541

Of course you dont.

You only hear Moorguards statement the one he made 3 years ago.., Right?

The same reason people pick guardians all day long, everyday. The fact that all other mobs besides raid mobs are able to be tanked by any fighter proves that if raids were truly balanced that it wouldn't hurt anyone. Anyone that is, except for guardians who just want to be the best.

Sorry the only "best" guardians are going to get is most defensive, not exclusive rights to raid content.

IF and only IF guardians weren't hitting 50 daily in pick up xp grind groups then would this made up excuse even be worth listening to. The fact remains that peoples perception is that guardians are the best overall tank so that goes a long way in helping them get groups, and since 99.9% of the game can be tanked by all fighters, making raids balanced won't hurt any classes; it will just finish balancing the archtype.

Guardians don't need anything. Sure we can tank other stuff BUT SO CAN GUARDIANS. We get DPS, they get defense. That doesn't mean they get to be the only ones who can tank raid content. They can tank it better, that's called having an advantage, but not exclusively, that's not balanced.

Please don't exagerrate. A little more than half wanted to keep their high DPS and about 45% agreed with me. That is of those monks who responded. Besides we all know the mentality of EQ1 monks is DPS, so that's a hard thing for people coming from that game to let go.

So quit saying "90%" because its not even close to those numbers.

Sure we get DPS, utilities and to tank. We do it right now. We have the highest DPS of the FIGHTER tree, not the game. Besides in a lot of current scenarios the BERSERKER class is the highest DPS, even out damaging monks/bruisers. So QUIT WHINING about DPS. Currently the archtypes are still being balanced in regards to damage and in some scenarios with certain buffs/classes we can outdamage mages/scouts. This will be adjusted. Our DPS is meant to make up for a lack of HP/mitigation/defense, not tanking prowess. While the guardian may be the "best" tank its only a slight advantage, as is our DPS over theirs, not the total lack of tanking ability. The rest of the game is balanced like this, raids should be also.

Again; quit with the outright lies. Its not "garbage" its how our class is designed. My "class" doesn't disagree with me either. Its about 50/50 of the players that posted. Not every guardian thinks they should be the only ones to tank raids, and not every guardian likes to MT. I've seen posts in the guardian forums about guardian tactics for buffing the other fighters (such as monks) for being MT.

For one: our DPS will be lowered somewhat or they will raise scouts/mages. We shouldn't be competing with those two classes for DPS spots. Whether or not monks want their DPS lowered, it will be. So that is a moot point. So is saying that we can't tank raid stuff because of our DPS/utilities.

1) All fighter classes get utlity/offtank spells (even guardians).

2) The whole entire rest of the game from 1 to 50 excluding raids is tankable efficiently by any fighter class in most group scenarios. Although the guardian holds a slight defensive advantage, all content from 1 to 50 can be tanked by monks and every other fighter. It would be continued balance to have raids be the same. Its NOT balanced to have one subclass be the only adequate raid MT. Sorry you can't see that.

Three years ago? Please link the quote you are talking about, as all of mine are from 11-9 or later, which coincidentally would be 4 months old or newer.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-05-2005 11:25 PM

pillb · 03-06-2005, 01:03 PM

Main Tank is the Guardians only Role. Having more than one guardian is a waste of Raid space when you could have a *gasp* Monk or dps instead. The Guardian is the only full defensive fighter class and most people picked it knowing they would get to MT but also wouldn't be much use on raids if theres already a Guardian tanking but YOU want MONKS to measure up without sacraficing DPS and Versatility. A monk no matter how many of them will Always have a role in Raids.The only reason you're posting this Monks should MT CRAP here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks DIS-AGREED with You in Your 'My Fellow Monks' 'Thread'. You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you because they dont want their class DPS/Versatility nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do YouMonks dont want to MT on Raids. You asked them in your OWN thread and they turned you down Remember ? =>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541Guardians have it tough enough as it is because you only need 1 Guardian but you could invite several monks and a Monk will always have a role.Monks don't want to sacrafice their DPS and versatility in exchange for tanking raid stuff closer to the Guardian level only you do Gage.

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 01:36 PM

pillb · 03-06-2005, 01:15 PM

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 12:51 AM

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 03:28 PM

pillbub wrote:
Main Tank is the Guardians only Role. Having more than one guardian is a waste of Raid space when you could have a *gasp* Monk or dps instead. The Guardian is the only full defensive fighter class and most people picked it knowing they would get to MT but also wouldn't be much use on raids if theres already a Guardian tanking but YOU want MONKS to measure up without sacraficing DPS and Versatility.

The only reason you're posting this Monks should MT CRAP here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks DIS-AGREED with You in Your 'My Fellow Monks' "thread". You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG and they dont want their class DPS/Versatility nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do You

Monks dont want to MT on Raids. You asked them in your OWN thread and they turned you down Remember ? =>

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541

Guardians have it tough enough as it is because you only need 1 Guardian but you could invite several monks and a Monk will always have a role.

Monks don't want to sacrafice their DPS and versatility in exchange for tanking raid stuff closer to the Guardian level only you do Gage.

MT is not the guardians only role. They have the best upgrades to intervene in the game, they have great group buffs and they can dual wield. While they DPS isn't as good as a monks, a monk's defense isn't as good.

Despite monks having less defense than a guardian, we can still tank.

Just as a guardian can OT/MA.

I didn't post it here, I replied here. PLEASE go back to elementary school and LEARN HOW TO DO PERCENTAGES. If you think the results of that thread are 90%, then obviously you lack the intelligence to even be a part of this discussion.

Monks ARE MT. If you think its crap, I'm sorry that God make you dillusional.

As I've stated 200x monks can ALREADY tank all the content that a guardian can from 1 to 50, with our DPS and utility. Our DPS will be lower than scouts/mages when the balancing is all finished, so therefore our ROLE in a group/raid WILL be tanking/offtanking JUST LIKE a guardians role.

All they need to do is balance raids where they are tankable, like the rest of the content in the game, by all the fighter classes.

For one I'm not wrong. For two they didn't reject it, it was about 50/50. For three you've already made it apparant your suffer with a lack of understanding where simple mathematics are involved.

IF you are so smart and our DPS/utility would have to be "nerfed" to MT on raids, THEN WHY ISN'T IT THE SAME FOR THE OTHER 99.9% OF CONTENT IN THE GAME WE CAN CURRENTLY TANK JUST LIKE GUARDIANS, WITH OUR DPS/UTILITY IN TACT. (Although as I stated, our DPS will either be lowered or scouts/mages will be raised to align the archtypes correctly).

What is so special about raids that only guardians can tank them? NOTHING? Thought so.

Its evident that not only do you struggle with simple mathematical truths like percentages, that you also struggle with reading. In that thread you've so graciously linked 200x PLENTY of monks said they would GLADY give up DPS for added defense/tanking ability. As I've already stated, it was roughly half.

Guardians have it so tough that they MT everyday, all day and plenty of them continue to ding 50 every single day. Even with the mean old bad monks out there tanking right along side them all the way from 1 to 50. (Not to mention the bruisers tanking, the sks tanking... etc etc). The guardians don't have it bad at all, they are the best tank in the game. So quit your cries for sympathy.

Besides WHEN not IF the DPS scale is changed and monks/bruisers are no longer at the top of the heap but they are below two ENTIRE archtypes as far as damage goes, we'll be in the same boat as the rest of the fighters, as we should be. Which is being grouped as TANKS.

As for the last statement you are 100% wrong. As I know for a fact that at least ten other monks feel as I do off the top of my head. Let alone the ones who don't post. So therefore saying "only you do Gage" proves (as if that's needed) that you exaggerate, estimate and make up stuff in order to desperately cling onto being the only class to tank raid encounters.

Sorry, it isn't going to last. Soon raids will be balanced like the rest of the content in the game, tankable by all fighters, and this whole thread and the many like it will be something to look back and laugh at.

pillb · 03-06-2005, 03:34 PM

If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content].Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your utilities DPS raid versatility AND tank the best..

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 02:41 AM

pillb · 03-06-2005, 03:37 PM

Just say you want your class to have everything because thats what your asking.

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 02:38 AM

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 03:40 PM

pillbub wrote:
If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content].

Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your DPS utilities AND tank the best..

LoL you really can't read. Moorgard said due to the way the game is setup in certain situations some classes will have the advantage over others. He never said some situations certain classes couldn't tank at all.

I'll ask you again:

Currently everything except raid content is tankable by every fighter class. No one is saying that is not balanced. On a lvl 47++ named mob a monk can tank it just as well as a guardian, just as well as a sk. No one has a problem with this, in fact its balanced.

So therefore if raids were the same, it would continue to be balanced.

Its only not balanced because guardians are the only raid tanks.

Besides, I never said as good. Right now on a lvl 47++ mob in most situations the guardian is the better tank, but I can still tank it and kill it, routinely with my monk.

Same deal as soon as they balance raids.

pillb · 03-06-2005, 04:03 PM

You have no clue what Balance is

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 03:04 AM

Tripper · 03-06-2005, 06:11 PM

Is there any way to /ignore posters? Sidgb is absolutely worthless and I hate having to see their posts everywhere

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 11:36 PM

pillbub wrote:
I have no clue what Balance is

I know. Its okay though, keep reading posts from constructive posters like myself and you'll learn SMILEY

Ay · 03-07-2005, 02:17 AM

pillbub, nice find on Gage's other post where Monks disagree with him.

Also, you showed me that Farnerf bot doesnt nerf the word [Removed for Content], like i thought it would. Man that thing is sensitive SMILEY

Now i dont have to say.. Gage is a M0ron.. with a zero SMILEY

Gaige · 03-07-2005, 02:51 AM

Ayun wrote:

pillbub, nice find on Gage's other post where Monks disagree with him.

Also, you showed me that Farnerf bot doesnt nerf the word [Removed for Content], like i thought it would. Man that thing is sensitive

Now i dont have to say.. Gage is a M0ron.. with a zero

You've hurt my feelings. Please hold:

...

Ok all better now. Of course some monks don't agree with me. Everybody has their own perceptions of how things should work. Besides in most games monks are melee DPS, not tanks. Especially in EQ1 where a lot of my fellow monks come from.

I don't need everyone to agree with me. Heh.

Besides, read the guardian/sk/pally/*insert board here*. Just because people are in the same class, doesn't mean they always agree.

I find it funny though that you guys focus on the monks in that thread whose opinion differs from mine, and amazingly not the ones who agree.

Legat · 03-07-2005, 05:01 AM

Thanks for analyzing my post, but not really reading it. You said I, as well as you, should quit posting in the same threads. Hmmm, I have under 10 posts you have over 2200. Every post I read (which you will reply here saying that I need to read again, everyone else is wrong, you cant tank like a guardian etc...) you are constantly stating how unfair it is blah, blah, blah. All I see is moaning about how you are not the end all be all class in EQ2 and this upsets you (here is where you quote me with something out of dictionary.com). You may actually have valid points in some of your posts, but not many people see them because of the way your posts are worded. You might want to step back and try not to be such a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] sometimes.

No class is the end all be all class in this game, not even guardians. If you are not enjoying the game then quit playing it. There are plenty of single players games where you can be the end all be all uberest of the uber. So, now you need to rip apart my post and say how I am wrong, you are right, tell me to re-read posts and not skim them, because apparently your intellect knows no bounds.

Gaige · 03-07-2005, 05:15 AM

Since when does post count mean anything other than:

a) How much time spent on the forums

b) Whether they prefer to read or to post

Obviously I like to post and spend a lot of time here.

/shrug

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-06-2005 04:15 PM

Eelyen · 03-07-2005, 08:17 AM

Are yall really still at this?

Give it up. Neither side will win SMILEY

KUPOPO · 03-07-2005, 03:42 PM

Eelyen wrote:

Are yall really still at this?

Give it up. Neither side will win

One side has won; the other side just won't concede defeat. Their strategy for continuing the argument is to repeat points after they're refuted... in other words, to shout louder. Very mature and rational SMILEY

Dashofpepper wrote:

Not so sure about the idea of negative HP...but I think someone mentioned this before:

MOBS also play a part in this scheme. Avoidance tanks die more often because MOBS are structured to fight mitigation tanks. Is it fair for me to say that ALL mobs hit hard and not often? (presuming appropriate level con). There aren't really any mobs that are structured for an avoidance tank. That being...very low damage, but very high hit rate.

What we have now: Mobs hit hard on occassion. Mitigators will shrug off the hits and get healed. Avoiders will get beat down.

What we need: A new kind of mob that hits weak, very, very often. Mitigators won't get hit once per second, they'll get hit ten times per second...whereas an monk/bruiser would dodge around most of those low damage attacks.

Retribution - Befallen

You don't understand math dash. Consider the setup I mentioned before, 2 tanks, one who is hit one out of ten times(avoidance) and another who is hit one out of two times one fifth the damage(mitigation), and each tank with 1200 hp(though in practice the mitigator would have more than the avoider). Suppose instead the mob hitting for 100 damage once per second it hit for 5 damage 20 times per second. That's the limit of your proposed attack rate increase, just about. So the odds of the avoidance tank getting owned would be one in 10^240. An astronomically small number right? But the odds of the mitigation tank getting owned are one in 2^1200~10^361. So the life expectency of the mitigation tank is 10^121 times as long, that's 1 with 121 zeros behind it, or a thousand billion billion GOOGLE times as long. So what you propose would indeed up the life expectency of the avoidance tank, but it would up the mitigator's life expectency even more.

Of course both would have a long enough life expectancy that you'd never expect to see one die until long after the sun has burned out, so you could say that against mobs with low damage and a crazy attack rate, the two tanks would be effectively equal. If you got really extreme, you could talk about a mob that attacks a hundred times per second for one damage each: if the system rounds the fractions up then the guardian would get owned. Of course that would be the same as ignoring mitigation :p

Message Edited by KUPOPO on 03-07-2005 03:00 AM

Message Edited by KUPOPO on 03-07-2005 03:04 AM

Zerofault · 03-07-2005, 05:25 PM

I'm a 49 berserker and i'm very happy with my tanking ability... not sure where all this is coming from... I just have to choose defensive buffs and leave out the offense buffs that sacrifice defense for offense...

Monks ... can they tank in any game as good as a guardian... ever? I didn't think so, use common sense next time you choose your class dude!

Lodoz - Nek -

Message Edited by Zerofault on 03-07-2005 04:29 AM

Solkarr · 03-07-2005, 07:40 PM

Ok, heres the reason Guardians are tank of choice on raid mobs... they have a billion hps, and they hit hard. That makes them a different animal than regular mobs.

On joe-shmoe mob, a monk or berzerker etc can tank it nicely, and their extra dps means the mob dies faster so it has less time to damage the tank. Thats great, thats balanced. A good offense is a good defense and all that.

On Mr. Kick-your-butt Raid mob, it has 20 times as many hps at least as joe-shmoe mob, and more power as well. It is going to live long enough to smack the tank around reguardless if you are a monk of berzerker with a bit more dps than the guardian... your dps compared the the raid mobs hps is tiny... Thus raid mobs are something the tank needs to endure, not frenzy on to kill it fast. Guardians are built to endure things. Raid mobs currently are designed for this type of tank...

one solution: Raid mob variety... raid mobs with low hps but higher damage... so an avoidance tank with more dps can actually dent it enough to balance with a guardian. The problem is then you could also use 5 wizards and a shaman to kill one of these puppies.

second solution: give other tanks a way to enddure things as well as guardians... at expense of offense, so they temporarily become a guardian... but to balance it out you need to give guardians a chance to frenzy on a mob at expense of defense, so we can become monks/berserkers temporarily.

third solution: accept that certain jobs are for certain classes. If you are in a raid and are a monk, be dps, or be a back up tank, or be the tank in the other group, incase an add wanders by. Mr MT doesn't want even a green con tapping him on the back, let alone a yellow while he tanks the raid mob. You can mend as a monk, that doesn't mean you want to be main healer, neither does the paladin. You have good dps, but it doesn't mean you want to be the main dps of the raid either, I know that. You want to be balanced. Being balanced means being different. During Beta testing there was a time when all the arch types got the same spells (cleric/druid/shaman.... monk/warrior/crusaider... etc) it was pretty balanced (DUH). Guess what the testers complained about? "WE WANT TO BE DIFFERENT" "WE WANT CLASS CHOICE TO MATTER" etc etc. testers (like me) were frustrated that all classes were exactly interchangable. You can't have differentiation AND be perfectly interchangable. SOE has done an amazing job so far, for regular xp mobs you CAN interchange arch types almost perfectly (almost). But the only way to interchange them exactly is to make them all the same again (no thanks). Enjoy being different! You picked a monk for the extra damage and FD etc, because you wanted it.

forth solution if you don't like the first 3... get creative! Test this on a nice orange or red ^^ mob (before testing on a raid mob) Find a guardian who is all hps (took stam instead of agil etc) and your choice of healers. Have the monk be main tank, and the guardian guard the monk (grant you move avoidance, and absorb the damage that gets through). See how much mana the healer has left at the end. Then have the guardian tank and you assist and give what ever help buffs you can to the guardian, and see how much power the healer has left at the end. Guardians are more than tanks... we are also good at guarding other people and making other people tank better. I would bet money that the healer will do better at least against high con normal mobs with the guardian guarding the monk. I can not promise this will translate into a good raid tactic, but I bet it would work. (at level 34 I can already give 26% more avoidance to a target, with just an adept 1. And I have a 50% chance to take all the damage aimed at my target, and more chances to absorb part of it. A level 50 guardian with adept 3s will do a heck of a lot more protecting than me)

Message Edited by Solkarr on 03-07-2005 07:22 AM

Trei · 03-07-2005, 09:04 PM

["... Monks ... can they tank in any game as good as a guardian... ever? I didn't think so, use common sense next time you choose your class dude! ..."]So far I have yet to get any impression whatsoever that any monk player is asking to tank as good as a guardian, raid or no.All I hear non-guardian tanks ask for is some assistance for their respective subclasses to be able to tank raid mobs adequately, to be recognised as a viable raid MT choice.Not the best choice, but at least a VIABLE one.Do you see the difference between being a viable option and a non-option?raid leader "hmm ok our guardian just aggroed his wife, who can replace him as raid MT?"some pally jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some sk jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some bruiser jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some monk jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some zerker jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.raid leader looks around, "darn.. sorry guys.. can't raid without a raid tank, lets reschedule... "Now the above may or may not have happened before but if it did and still does, that's seriously wrong no?

03-05-2005, 03:23 AM	#271
DTJay Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 19	Paladin here. All things equal, a Guardian should be the MT over a similiarly situated Fighter class. I'm not sure that anyone ever "promised" that all tank classes would be EXACTLY equal. Obviously, a Guardian whose main focus is on mitigation and defense would tank better as far as straight damage absorbtion. My paladin has heals/wards etc to compensate for his inability to absorb as much damage. Bruiser/monk is harder to hit. End of the day Guardians are by design damage absorbers which by design works better on raid mobs. My first point is that nobody promised exact equality. My second point is that certain people being elitest on raids shouldn't influence you. Raid with your friends, guild, or a pickup group. If they're being snobs and won't let you along then to heck with em - find a group that will have you. __________________

03-05-2005, 04:02 AM	#272
Aliaswa Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 17	sidgb wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Wow go figure. The "current balance" has their class as the best. I'd like that "balance" too. Actually we are the worst class. Our DPS sucks. And we still think we are balanced. Oops, I keep forgetting, that doesn't count. Sorry to bother everyone. nothing to see here. Gage must be correct, there I go complaining about my DPS. Message Edited by sidgb on 03-04-2005 04:14 PM There you going bashing someone. stick to the subject!So Sidgb are you saying monks are never suppost to be MT tanks?Cause last I check all fighters were suppost to be.See you guardians keep missing the point of a fighter.We are all suppost to be able to fill the roll of MT.Thats cool that you can tank better but it shouldn't be 200X better than the other fighters.There is a huge gap between each of the fighter classes. (in tanking because were all suppost to be tank)Is there a LVL25-26 guardian on oggok server so you can group we me and see for yourself?You pick the target and I show how quickly I die and you see how you are barely touched.Cause this is going no where.DEVS are you there?Pumx LVL26 MONK oggok

03-05-2005, 05:04 AM	#274
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Garana Manskinner wrote: hrmm, thats funny, first monk i seen complain about tanking in exp groups. All of them have said they are adequate in that department. I guess your one of the rare ones that cannot tank at all? We are adequate in that department, proved by the fact I MT'd my way from lvl 1 on the isle to lvl 50 in Permafrost. I never said we weren't. __________________

03-05-2005, 07:27 PM	#277
Legat General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Wow, these threads will not die... A couple things here from my point of view ( I play a Guardian): 1. Raid invites, if you are so worried about it, join a guild show them what you can do, and you will get invited to raids plain and simple. If you are not very good at your class it is not the classes fault it is the players. 2. If you (as a monk, bruiser, sk, pally, zerker) want to be able to tank like a guardian and are willing to give up your dps, spells, heals, fd, etc... then well uhh make a guardian. These threads get out of hand in a hurry like this one did. I run a guild that has a couple zerker's, and a couple bruisers, they can tank normal XP mobs just fine. However, they (bruisers and zerkers dont know much about the other classes) bring something to the table that I really can't in XP groups, DPS. Yeah I know my DPS contributes but it is not near what either of theirs is. Players on the server I play on are starting to realize this and monks/bruisers/zerkers can get into groups easier than guardians. I say this because monks/bruisers/zerkers can fill two roles in the party dps or tank both of which they do well. Guardians, however, do one thing well and that is to take a beating. Now, if SoE decides to beef of monks to tank like guardians where does that put guardians? Worse off than warriors were in EQ1 which is where they do not want to go. At least in EQ1 warriors were the raid tank 90% of the time. Which is where this game will hopefully not be going when people realize what the other classes can do. If this is something you cannot live with because you feel SoE lied to you well then I think you are playing the wrong game. Some of you are asking all fighter classes to be equal, then why not just have one class called a fighter? The game is young, let it grow please. Most of the folks in EQ2 just switched over from EQ1 and are playing EQ2 like they did EQ1. This is what they know how to do, how to play. Why? Becasue the majority of them played EQ1 for 3+ years. Time will bring us different strats and ideas and ways to do things, but as of right now people are playing and doing what they know will work, time will change this. Well, time and some curious players experimenting a little. __________________ Peanutbutter - Retired; then traded away Njelly - 60 Warden; Retired Lulamdar - 60 Dirge Ruiadas - 60something because I am lazy and don't want to lvl Illusionist; Leader of Elysium - Crushbone

03-06-2005, 12:43 AM	#278
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Legatto wrote: Wow, these threads will not die... A couple things here from my point of view ( I play a Guardian): 1. Raid invites, if you are so worried about it, join a guild show them what you can do, and you will get invited to raids plain and simple. If you are not very good at your class it is not the classes fault it is the players. 2. If you (as a monk, bruiser, sk, pally, zerker) want to be able to tank like a guardian and are willing to give up your dps, spells, heals, fd, etc... then well uhh make a guardian. These threads get out of hand in a hurry like this one did. I run a guild that has a couple zerker's, and a couple bruisers, they can tank normal XP mobs just fine. However, they (bruisers and zerkers dont know much about the other classes) bring something to the table that I really can't in XP groups, DPS. Yeah I know my DPS contributes but it is not near what either of theirs is. Players on the server I play on are starting to realize this and monks/bruisers/zerkers can get into groups easier than guardians. I say this because monks/bruisers/zerkers can fill two roles in the party dps or tank both of which they do well. Guardians, however, do one thing well and that is to take a beating. Now, if SoE decides to beef of monks to tank like guardians where does that put guardians? Worse off than warriors were in EQ1 which is where they do not want to go. At least in EQ1 warriors were the raid tank 90% of the time. Which is where this game will hopefully not be going when people realize what the other classes can do. If this is something you cannot live with because you feel SoE lied to you well then I think you are playing the wrong game. Some of you are asking all fighter classes to be equal, then why not just have one class called a fighter? The game is young, let it grow please. Most of the folks in EQ2 just switched over from EQ1 and are playing EQ2 like they did EQ1. This is what they know how to do, how to play. Why? Becasue the majority of them played EQ1 for 3+ years. Time will bring us different strats and ideas and ways to do things, but as of right now people are playing and doing what they know will work, time will change this. Well, time and some curious players experimenting a little. Step 1: Read the title of the thread. Step 2: Consider the question asked by the title of the thread. Step 3: Realize that currently all fighter classes can tank in xp groups from 1 to 50. Despite the fact that monks have higher DPS plenty of guardians are out there tanking for xp just fine and dinging 50 daily. Step 4: Read the actual posts people make and do not skim them, and thus automatically assume they are asking to be "the best". Step 5: Read the title of the thread again. Step 6: Realize that in xp groups from 1 to 50 all tanks are interchangeable (but the guardian still has the advantage in pure tanking). Although the guardian is "the best" it isn't by an amount that makes tanking an impossibility for the other fighters. Step 7: Realize that in the normal game from 1 to 50, fighters are balanced. Guardians have the most defense, monks have the most DPS, but they can both adequately tank for their groups from 1 to 50. Step 8: Realize that in the normal xp game, all fighters are balanced (pending small fixes to every class). Step 9: Read the title of the thread again. Step 10: Realize that balancing raids so that all fighters can tank them (even if one is "better" ~ which would be the guardian) would just finish up the current balance the game already experiences. Given that raids are way less frequent than the xp game, and considering that the xp game balances allows for all fighters to tank, it should be a given that making raids tankable by all fighters wouldn't hurt any of the classes. Step 11: Let the realization soak in that other fighters aren't asking to nerf guardians. Step 12: Play the game and quit posting in the same threads over and over (I need to take this advice myself). Cliff Notes: Balancing raids to be in line with every other mob in the game (tankable by all fighters, although some are better than others) would just be putting the finishing touches on overall fighter balance. __________________

03-05-2005, 04:52 AM	#273
Garana Manskinn Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	hrmm, thats funny, first monk i seen complain about tanking in exp groups. All of them have said they are adequate in that department. I guess your one of the rare ones that cannot tank at all?

03-05-2005, 05:06 PM	#275
Ay Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 97	Well.. it looks like Gage has succeeded in making this thread over 11 pages. Therefore, making it look important to Devs. And now he finally admits his MT abilities are adequate. He admits he MT'd his way to 50, in the short time that EQ2 has been out! If it was a tough path, it would have taken longer, or people would have insisted that he dont MT. He must be a good MT. But that's just not good enough. He wants to be the BEST MT, BEST DPS, BEST UTILITY fighter in the game. Support your local Guardian.. all they ever wanted was to bleed, so that you dont have to.

03-05-2005, 06:47 PM	#276
Troodon Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 201	Before this thread ends up going too far off topic, may I just remind anyone whom has bothered to read this far that all this angst is focused about the plea for non Guardian fighters to be desirable to invite on raids. Be it either to have some role other than guardian sidekick (even if its just in specific situations), or to (sigh) develop into good enough sidekick/squire/support-class to be desirable on raids, that is to step beyond the dreaded off-tank title that seems to equate to "raid slot filler if we cant find another dps/healer/nuker" weather in truth or perception.

03-06-2005, 10:51 AM	#279
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Lol No.If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content].Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your DPS utilities AND tank the best.. Message Edited by pillbub on 03-05-2005 09:58 PM

03-06-2005, 10:59 AM	#280
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: Lol No. If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content]. Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your DPS utilities AND tank the best. Message Edited by pillbub on 03-05-2005 09:56 PM How does it feel being unable to read? Anyway we are asking to be able to tank raid content, not be better than guardians. All fighter classes can already tank all other areas of the games, so balancing raids is all that's left to do. __________________

03-06-2005, 11:29 AM	#281
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	It wouldnt be balance if Monks tanked uber Raid stuff. That is basically the only thing Guardian has going for it is Raids. Any fighter can tank in a EXP group so why pick a guardian? People've explained why but you wont freaking Listen.If Monks kept their skills AND tanked raid stuff then guardians get nothing while monks get to tank and have dps on raids.The only reason youre posting your Monks should MT crap here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks disagreed with you in Your 'My Fellow Monks' 'Thread'. You dont get dps utilities AND get to tank. You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you because they dont want their class DPS/Utilities/Versitility nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do YouYOUR THREAD --> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541Of course you dont.You only hear Moorguards statement the one he made 3 years ago.., Right? Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 08:53 PM

03-06-2005, 12:22 PM	#282
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: It wouldnt be balance if Monks tanked uber Raid stuff. That is basically the only thing Guardian has going for it is Raids. Any fighter can tank in a EXP group so why pick a guardian? People've explained why but you wont freaking Listen. If Monks kept their skills AND tanked raid stuff then guardians get nothing. The only reason youre posting your Monks should MT crap here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks disagreed with you in Your 'My Fellow Monks' thread. You dont get dps utilities AND get to tank. You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG. They dont want their classes DPS and utilites nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do You YOUR THREAD --> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541 Of course you dont. You only hear Moorguards statement the one he made 3 years ago.., Right? The same reason people pick guardians all day long, everyday. The fact that all other mobs besides raid mobs are able to be tanked by any fighter proves that if raids were truly balanced that it wouldn't hurt anyone. Anyone that is, except for guardians who just want to be the best. Sorry the only "best" guardians are going to get is most defensive, not exclusive rights to raid content. IF and only IF guardians weren't hitting 50 daily in pick up xp grind groups then would this made up excuse even be worth listening to. The fact remains that peoples perception is that guardians are the best overall tank so that goes a long way in helping them get groups, and since 99.9% of the game can be tanked by all fighters, making raids balanced won't hurt any classes; it will just finish balancing the archtype. Guardians don't need anything. Sure we can tank other stuff BUT SO CAN GUARDIANS. We get DPS, they get defense. That doesn't mean they get to be the only ones who can tank raid content. They can tank it better, that's called having an advantage, but not exclusively, that's not balanced. Please don't exagerrate. A little more than half wanted to keep their high DPS and about 45% agreed with me. That is of those monks who responded. Besides we all know the mentality of EQ1 monks is DPS, so that's a hard thing for people coming from that game to let go. So quit saying "90%" because its not even close to those numbers. Sure we get DPS, utilities and to tank. We do it right now. We have the highest DPS of the FIGHTER tree, not the game. Besides in a lot of current scenarios the BERSERKER class is the highest DPS, even out damaging monks/bruisers. So QUIT WHINING about DPS. Currently the archtypes are still being balanced in regards to damage and in some scenarios with certain buffs/classes we can outdamage mages/scouts. This will be adjusted. Our DPS is meant to make up for a lack of HP/mitigation/defense, not tanking prowess. While the guardian may be the "best" tank its only a slight advantage, as is our DPS over theirs, not the total lack of tanking ability. The rest of the game is balanced like this, raids should be also. Again; quit with the outright lies. Its not "garbage" its how our class is designed. My "class" doesn't disagree with me either. Its about 50/50 of the players that posted. Not every guardian thinks they should be the only ones to tank raids, and not every guardian likes to MT. I've seen posts in the guardian forums about guardian tactics for buffing the other fighters (such as monks) for being MT. For one: our DPS will be lowered somewhat or they will raise scouts/mages. We shouldn't be competing with those two classes for DPS spots. Whether or not monks want their DPS lowered, it will be. So that is a moot point. So is saying that we can't tank raid stuff because of our DPS/utilities. 1) All fighter classes get utlity/offtank spells (even guardians). 2) The whole entire rest of the game from 1 to 50 excluding raids is tankable efficiently by any fighter class in most group scenarios. Although the guardian holds a slight defensive advantage, all content from 1 to 50 can be tanked by monks and every other fighter. It would be continued balance to have raids be the same. Its NOT balanced to have one subclass be the only adequate raid MT. Sorry you can't see that. Three years ago? Please link the quote you are talking about, as all of mine are from 11-9 or later, which coincidentally would be 4 months old or newer. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-05-2005 11:25 PM __________________

03-06-2005, 01:03 PM	#283
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Main Tank is the Guardians only Role. Having more than one guardian is a waste of Raid space when you could have a gasp Monk or dps instead. The Guardian is the only full defensive fighter class and most people picked it knowing they would get to MT but also wouldn't be much use on raids if theres already a Guardian tanking but YOU want MONKS to measure up without sacraficing DPS and Versatility. A monk no matter how many of them will Always have a role in Raids.The only reason you're posting this Monks should MT CRAP here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks DIS-AGREED with You in Your 'My Fellow Monks' 'Thread'. You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you because they dont want their class DPS/Versatility nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do YouMonks dont want to MT on Raids. You asked them in your OWN thread and they turned you down Remember ? =>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541Guardians have it tough enough as it is because you only need 1 Guardian but you could invite several monks and a Monk will always have a role.Monks don't want to sacrafice their DPS and versatility in exchange for tanking raid stuff closer to the Guardian level only you do Gage. Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 01:36 PM

03-06-2005, 01:15 PM	#284
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 12:51 AM

03-06-2005, 03:28 PM	#285
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: Main Tank is the Guardians only Role. Having more than one guardian is a waste of Raid space when you could have a gasp Monk or dps instead. The Guardian is the only full defensive fighter class and most people picked it knowing they would get to MT but also wouldn't be much use on raids if theres already a Guardian tanking but YOU want MONKS to measure up without sacraficing DPS and Versatility. The only reason you're posting this Monks should MT CRAP here and not in the Monk forum is because 90% of monks DIS-AGREED with You in Your 'My Fellow Monks' "thread". You tried to sell your garbage to your own class and they rejected you BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG and they dont want their class DPS/Versatility nurfed just so they can tank raid stuff. Thats what would have to Happen But You Dont Hear That .... Do You Monks dont want to MT on Raids. You asked them in your OWN thread and they turned you down Remember ? => http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10541 Guardians have it tough enough as it is because you only need 1 Guardian but you could invite several monks and a Monk will always have a role. Monks don't want to sacrafice their DPS and versatility in exchange for tanking raid stuff closer to the Guardian level only you do Gage. MT is not the guardians only role. They have the best upgrades to intervene in the game, they have great group buffs and they can dual wield. While they DPS isn't as good as a monks, a monk's defense isn't as good. Despite monks having less defense than a guardian, we can still tank. Just as a guardian can OT/MA. I didn't post it here, I replied here. PLEASE go back to elementary school and LEARN HOW TO DO PERCENTAGES. If you think the results of that thread are 90%, then obviously you lack the intelligence to even be a part of this discussion. Monks ARE MT. If you think its crap, I'm sorry that God make you dillusional. As I've stated 200x monks can ALREADY tank all the content that a guardian can from 1 to 50, with our DPS and utility. Our DPS will be lower than scouts/mages when the balancing is all finished, so therefore our ROLE in a group/raid WILL be tanking/offtanking JUST LIKE a guardians role. All they need to do is balance raids where they are tankable, like the rest of the content in the game, by all the fighter classes. For one I'm not wrong. For two they didn't reject it, it was about 50/50. For three you've already made it apparant your suffer with a lack of understanding where simple mathematics are involved. IF you are so smart and our DPS/utility would have to be "nerfed" to MT on raids, THEN WHY ISN'T IT THE SAME FOR THE OTHER 99.9% OF CONTENT IN THE GAME WE CAN CURRENTLY TANK JUST LIKE GUARDIANS, WITH OUR DPS/UTILITY IN TACT. (Although as I stated, our DPS will either be lowered or scouts/mages will be raised to align the archtypes correctly). What is so special about raids that only guardians can tank them? NOTHING? Thought so. Its evident that not only do you struggle with simple mathematical truths like percentages, that you also struggle with reading. In that thread you've so graciously linked 200x PLENTY of monks said they would GLADY give up DPS for added defense/tanking ability. As I've already stated, it was roughly half. Guardians have it so tough that they MT everyday, all day and plenty of them continue to ding 50 every single day. Even with the mean old bad monks out there tanking right along side them all the way from 1 to 50. (Not to mention the bruisers tanking, the sks tanking... etc etc). The guardians don't have it bad at all, they are the best tank in the game. So quit your cries for sympathy. Besides WHEN not IF the DPS scale is changed and monks/bruisers are no longer at the top of the heap but they are below two ENTIRE archtypes as far as damage goes, we'll be in the same boat as the rest of the fighters, as we should be. Which is being grouped as TANKS. As for the last statement you are 100% wrong. As I know for a fact that at least ten other monks feel as I do off the top of my head. Let alone the ones who don't post. So therefore saying "only you do Gage" proves (as if that's needed) that you exaggerate, estimate and make up stuff in order to desperately cling onto being the only class to tank raid encounters. Sorry, it isn't going to last. Soon raids will be balanced like the rest of the content in the game, tankable by all fighters, and this whole thread and the many like it will be something to look back and laugh at. __________________

03-06-2005, 03:34 PM	#286
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content].Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your utilities DPS raid versatility AND tank the best.. Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 02:41 AM

03-06-2005, 03:37 PM	#287
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Just say you want your class to have everything because thats what your asking. Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 02:38 AM

03-06-2005, 03:40 PM	#288
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: If Monks could tank like Guardians that would NOT be balanced, that would be UN-Balanced. You'd get FD, high-DPS, Heals, AOE damage AND you could Tank like a guardian. How is that BALANCE you [Removed for Content]. Moorguard said you could tank IN MOST SITUATIONS... he didnt say you'd get your DPS utilities AND tank the best.. LoL you really can't read. Moorgard said due to the way the game is setup in certain situations some classes will have the advantage over others. He never said some situations certain classes couldn't tank at all. I'll ask you again: Currently everything except raid content is tankable by every fighter class. No one is saying that is not balanced. On a lvl 47++ named mob a monk can tank it just as well as a guardian, just as well as a sk. No one has a problem with this, in fact its balanced. So therefore if raids were the same, it would continue to be balanced. Its only not balanced because guardians are the only raid tanks. Besides, I never said as good. Right now on a lvl 47++ mob in most situations the guardian is the better tank, but I can still tank it and kill it, routinely with my monk. Same deal as soon as they balance raids. __________________

03-06-2005, 04:03 PM	#289
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	You have no clue what Balance is Message Edited by pillbub on 03-06-2005 03:04 AM

03-06-2005, 06:11 PM	#290
Tripper Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Is there any way to /ignore posters? Sidgb is absolutely worthless and I hate having to see their posts everywhere

03-06-2005, 11:36 PM	#291
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: I have no clue what Balance is I know. Its okay though, keep reading posts from constructive posters like myself and you'll learn __________________

03-07-2005, 02:17 AM	#292
Ay Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 97	pillbub, nice find on Gage's other post where Monks disagree with him. Also, you showed me that Farnerf bot doesnt nerf the word [Removed for Content], like i thought it would. Man that thing is sensitive Now i dont have to say.. Gage is a M0ron.. with a zero

03-07-2005, 02:51 AM	#293
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Ayun wrote: pillbub, nice find on Gage's other post where Monks disagree with him. Also, you showed me that Farnerf bot doesnt nerf the word [Removed for Content], like i thought it would. Man that thing is sensitive Now i dont have to say.. Gage is a M0ron.. with a zero You've hurt my feelings. Please hold: ... ... ... ... Ok all better now. Of course some monks don't agree with me. Everybody has their own perceptions of how things should work. Besides in most games monks are melee DPS, not tanks. Especially in EQ1 where a lot of my fellow monks come from. I don't need everyone to agree with me. Heh. Besides, read the guardian/sk/pally/insert board here. Just because people are in the same class, doesn't mean they always agree. I find it funny though that you guys focus on the monks in that thread whose opinion differs from mine, and amazingly not the ones who agree. __________________

03-07-2005, 05:01 AM	#294
Legat General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Thanks for analyzing my post, but not really reading it. You said I, as well as you, should quit posting in the same threads. Hmmm, I have under 10 posts you have over 2200. Every post I read (which you will reply here saying that I need to read again, everyone else is wrong, you cant tank like a guardian etc...) you are constantly stating how unfair it is blah, blah, blah. All I see is moaning about how you are not the end all be all class in EQ2 and this upsets you (here is where you quote me with something out of dictionary.com). You may actually have valid points in some of your posts, but not many people see them because of the way your posts are worded. You might want to step back and try not to be such a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] sometimes. No class is the end all be all class in this game, not even guardians. If you are not enjoying the game then quit playing it. There are plenty of single players games where you can be the end all be all uberest of the uber. So, now you need to rip apart my post and say how I am wrong, you are right, tell me to re-read posts and not skim them, because apparently your intellect knows no bounds. __________________ Peanutbutter - Retired; then traded away Njelly - 60 Warden; Retired Lulamdar - 60 Dirge Ruiadas - 60something because I am lazy and don't want to lvl Illusionist; Leader of Elysium - Crushbone

03-07-2005, 05:15 AM	#295
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Since when does post count mean anything other than: a) How much time spent on the forums b) Whether they prefer to read or to post Obviously I like to post and spend a lot of time here. /shrug Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-06-2005 04:15 PM __________________

03-07-2005, 08:17 AM	#296
Eelyen Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 161	Are yall really still at this? Give it up. Neither side will win __________________ Eelyen Dalamar

03-07-2005, 03:42 PM	#297
KUPOPO Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 24	Eelyen wrote: Are yall really still at this? Give it up. Neither side will win One side has won; the other side just won't concede defeat. Their strategy for continuing the argument is to repeat points after they're refuted... in other words, to shout louder. Very mature and rational Dashofpepper wrote: Not so sure about the idea of negative HP...but I think someone mentioned this before: MOBS also play a part in this scheme. Avoidance tanks die more often because MOBS are structured to fight mitigation tanks. Is it fair for me to say that ALL mobs hit hard and not often? (presuming appropriate level con). There aren't really any mobs that are structured for an avoidance tank. That being...very low damage, but very high hit rate. What we have now: Mobs hit hard on occassion. Mitigators will shrug off the hits and get healed. Avoiders will get beat down. What we need: A new kind of mob that hits weak, very, very often. Mitigators won't get hit once per second, they'll get hit ten times per second...whereas an monk/bruiser would dodge around most of those low damage attacks. Retribution - Befallen You don't understand math dash. Consider the setup I mentioned before, 2 tanks, one who is hit one out of ten times(avoidance) and another who is hit one out of two times one fifth the damage(mitigation), and each tank with 1200 hp(though in practice the mitigator would have more than the avoider). Suppose instead the mob hitting for 100 damage once per second it hit for 5 damage 20 times per second. That's the limit of your proposed attack rate increase, just about. So the odds of the avoidance tank getting owned would be one in 10^240. An astronomically small number right? But the odds of the mitigation tank getting owned are one in 2^1200~10^361. So the life expectency of the mitigation tank is 10^121 times as long, that's 1 with 121 zeros behind it, or a thousand billion billion GOOGLE times as long. So what you propose would indeed up the life expectency of the avoidance tank, but it would up the mitigator's life expectency even more. Of course both would have a long enough life expectancy that you'd never expect to see one die until long after the sun has burned out, so you could say that against mobs with low damage and a crazy attack rate, the two tanks would be effectively equal. If you got really extreme, you could talk about a mob that attacks a hundred times per second for one damage each: if the system rounds the fractions up then the guardian would get owned. Of course that would be the same as ignoring mitigation :p Message Edited by KUPOPO on 03-07-2005 03:00 AM Message Edited by KUPOPO on 03-07-2005 03:04 AM

03-07-2005, 05:25 PM	#298
Zerofault Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 78	I'm a 49 berserker and i'm very happy with my tanking ability... not sure where all this is coming from... I just have to choose defensive buffs and leave out the offense buffs that sacrifice defense for offense... Monks ... can they tank in any game as good as a guardian... ever? I didn't think so, use common sense next time you choose your class dude! Lodoz - Nek - Message Edited by Zerofault on 03-07-2005 04:29 AM

03-07-2005, 07:40 PM	#299
Solkarr Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 95	Ok, heres the reason Guardians are tank of choice on raid mobs... they have a billion hps, and they hit hard. That makes them a different animal than regular mobs. On joe-shmoe mob, a monk or berzerker etc can tank it nicely, and their extra dps means the mob dies faster so it has less time to damage the tank. Thats great, thats balanced. A good offense is a good defense and all that. On Mr. Kick-your-butt Raid mob, it has 20 times as many hps at least as joe-shmoe mob, and more power as well. It is going to live long enough to smack the tank around reguardless if you are a monk of berzerker with a bit more dps than the guardian... your dps compared the the raid mobs hps is tiny... Thus raid mobs are something the tank needs to endure, not frenzy on to kill it fast. Guardians are built to endure things. Raid mobs currently are designed for this type of tank... one solution: Raid mob variety... raid mobs with low hps but higher damage... so an avoidance tank with more dps can actually dent it enough to balance with a guardian. The problem is then you could also use 5 wizards and a shaman to kill one of these puppies. second solution: give other tanks a way to enddure things as well as guardians... at expense of offense, so they temporarily become a guardian... but to balance it out you need to give guardians a chance to frenzy on a mob at expense of defense, so we can become monks/berserkers temporarily. third solution: accept that certain jobs are for certain classes. If you are in a raid and are a monk, be dps, or be a back up tank, or be the tank in the other group, incase an add wanders by. Mr MT doesn't want even a green con tapping him on the back, let alone a yellow while he tanks the raid mob. You can mend as a monk, that doesn't mean you want to be main healer, neither does the paladin. You have good dps, but it doesn't mean you want to be the main dps of the raid either, I know that. You want to be balanced. Being balanced means being different. During Beta testing there was a time when all the arch types got the same spells (cleric/druid/shaman.... monk/warrior/crusaider... etc) it was pretty balanced (DUH). Guess what the testers complained about? "WE WANT TO BE DIFFERENT" "WE WANT CLASS CHOICE TO MATTER" etc etc. testers (like me) were frustrated that all classes were exactly interchangable. You can't have differentiation AND be perfectly interchangable. SOE has done an amazing job so far, for regular xp mobs you CAN interchange arch types almost perfectly (almost). But the only way to interchange them exactly is to make them all the same again (no thanks). Enjoy being different! You picked a monk for the extra damage and FD etc, because you wanted it. forth solution if you don't like the first 3... get creative! Test this on a nice orange or red ^^ mob (before testing on a raid mob) Find a guardian who is all hps (took stam instead of agil etc) and your choice of healers. Have the monk be main tank, and the guardian guard the monk (grant you move avoidance, and absorb the damage that gets through). See how much mana the healer has left at the end. Then have the guardian tank and you assist and give what ever help buffs you can to the guardian, and see how much power the healer has left at the end. Guardians are more than tanks... we are also good at guarding other people and making other people tank better. I would bet money that the healer will do better at least against high con normal mobs with the guardian guarding the monk. I can not promise this will translate into a good raid tactic, but I bet it would work. (at level 34 I can already give 26% more avoidance to a target, with just an adept 1. And I have a 50% chance to take all the damage aimed at my target, and more chances to absorb part of it. A level 50 guardian with adept 3s will do a heck of a lot more protecting than me) Message Edited by Solkarr on 03-07-2005 07:22 AM __________________

03-07-2005, 09:04 PM	#300
Trei Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 239	["... Monks ... can they tank in any game as good as a guardian... ever? I didn't think so, use common sense next time you choose your class dude! ..."]So far I have yet to get any impression whatsoever that any monk player is asking to tank as good as a guardian, raid or no.All I hear non-guardian tanks ask for is some assistance for their respective subclasses to be able to tank raid mobs adequately, to be recognised as a viable raid MT choice.Not the best choice, but at least a VIABLE one.Do you see the difference between being a viable option and a non-option?raid leader "hmm ok our guardian just aggroed his wife, who can replace him as raid MT?"some pally jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some sk jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some bruiser jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some monk jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.some zerker jumps up and down waving his hands wildly.raid leader looks around, "darn.. sorry guys.. can't raid without a raid tank, lets reschedule... "Now the above may or may not have happened before but if it did and still does, that's seriously wrong no? __________________ >>----Trei------>