Grey/red attacking will hurt grouping.

Dazzler_Twodir · 03-03-2005, 08:16 PM

What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing?

With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along.

Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself.

If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this.

Eelyen · 03-03-2005, 08:22 PM

The actual amount of grouping this will effect is limited.

I can picture my level 32 group not as willing to take a level 25 into Runnyeye. Or atleast attempting to get a level 25 there. But, other then that. There isn't a whole lot of situations this will effect. I think it was done to help prevent the "looking for a high level to grey everything out."

Lancealittle · 03-03-2005, 08:30 PM

Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:

What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing?

With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along.

Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself.

If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this.

This also fixes an issue with mentoring. As it stands you could mentor someone 30 levels below you and if you wanted to go around some agro mobs you just un-mentor.

I know that at level 32 a level 26 is grey to me. I'm not sure what level a 26 is red to character, but if it's even 3 levels then that character is getting no xps or quest rewards for grouping with me. If I'm not mentoring him, then we should have no reason to group.

Eelyen · 03-03-2005, 08:36 PM

Pretty much from what I know you can group with people within 7 levels of you and the lowest player can still get xp. Meaning You could have a level 25 in group, and the max level in the group for that person to get xp would be 32. I think quest rewards extend an extra level or two.

mino · 03-03-2005, 09:15 PM

This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM

Lancealittle · 03-03-2005, 09:24 PM

minobu wrote:

This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM

More tedious how?

Do you read the patch notes? They are making the game easier. XPs are being rasied, loot is easier to get, you can group with people you've outleveled, etc.

If you grey out something that is red to someone else then they have no reason to be in your group to get the agro in the first place.

If you are surrounded by agro reds you're in over your head and it should be dangerous for you. I completed the Zek bootstrutter quests while most of it was red to me. I guess I could have grouped with someone in their 40s and walked around all the greys, but I did it the 'tedious' way, or as I like to call it..the 'fun' way.

Lancealittle · 03-03-2005, 09:28 PM

Eelyen wrote:

The actual amount of grouping this will effect is limited.

I can picture my level 32 group not as willing to take a level 25 into Runnyeye. Or atleast attempting to get a level 25 there. But, other then that. There isn't a whole lot of situations this will effect. I think it was done to help prevent the "looking for a high level to grey everything out."

Hi there Eelyen.

I just wanted to note something. A red to that 25 would still be green to you and agro anyway. You still have to go around it or fight it. There would be no mobs that are grey to you that would be red to him.

WuphonsReach · 03-03-2005, 09:30 PM

The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen. 28 with a 2129 with a 2230 with a 2331 with a 2432 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32)33 with a 2534 with a 26(etc)This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player.The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk.Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of):1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny).2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it.

Tradeskill_Addict · 03-03-2005, 09:44 PM

I might add that in dungeons it has become a widespread habit to group just for getting past aggro mobs and finish an important quest (like priest hallmark in vermins snye which has to be done alone but getting to the instance alive is impossible that lvl 19).

I have mixed feelings both about this habit and the change because many high lvls have no problems to *bodyguard* but fighting through grey mobs for 15 minutes is a diferent matter.

But *outgreying* doesnt really sound ok to me so I will accept that change if going live.

Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 03-03-2005 08:46 AM

Ute · 03-03-2005, 10:04 PM

WuphonsReach wrote:The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen. 28 with a 2129 with a 2230 with a 2331 with a 2432 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32)33 with a 2534 with a 26(etc)This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player.The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk.Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of):1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny).2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it.

Also, this very tactic is what has made Rogue group stealth abilities so unvalued at most levels of play. Why group stealth and have a risk of discovery, when you can just group with someone temporarily who is many levels higher than you and safely bypass all the content. Or, use the greying out ability to accomplish quest goals without risk?If, after this change, you still want to bypass mobs to get to a certain spot, just bring a Brigand or Swashbuckler with your group. That is what our group stealth abilities were designed for.

KudLenka · 03-03-2005, 10:15 PM

the subclass quests with solo instances should not be placed in dungeons like that. Even in group of few lvl 19 i had terrible troubles to get my fury quest done. in fact i needed help of high level. but none of the mobs there was red to me so the greying out would work with the change anyway. the important point is - the agressive mob needs to con RED to the lowest level. I dont have any issues with that.

Samnas · 03-03-2005, 10:51 PM

minobu wrote:

This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM

Increased exp again, mentoring, increased reward for quests..... this is tedium? The whole point of SOE is to keep us happy and continuing to play the game. Does this mean they dont want us to all get to 50 and blow through all their content in a week? I would think so, but why have so much content at low and mid-levels if you just blow right past them? MMORPG are not designed to be a game that the goal is just "finish" and then quit so of course they have to balance the pace of levelling with the content. At lvl 35 there is a lot of content below and around my lvl that I have not seen yet so as long as they have pleanty of content for people to enjoy on the way to 50 I dont have any problem with the speed of levelling.

aeio · 03-03-2005, 10:53 PM

Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:
What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing?

With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along.

Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself.

If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this.

Well the current situation allows higher level players to totally trivialize and bypass content for lower level players. I was never in favor of that mechanic, since beta. I am glad they finally decided to fix it.If you want to group with lower levels, then mentor them and you can face challenges together... otherwise group with appropriate level people.

mino · 03-03-2005, 11:20 PM

Samnas wrote:

minobu wrote:

This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM

Increased exp again, mentoring, increased reward for quests..... this is tedium? The whole point of SOE is to keep us happy and continuing to play the game. Does this mean they dont want us to all get to 50 and blow through all their content in a week? I would think so, but why have so much content at low and mid-levels if you just blow right past them? MMORPG are not designed to be a game that the goal is just "finish" and then quit so of course they have to balance the pace of levelling with the content. At lvl 35 there is a lot of content below and around my lvl that I have not seen yet so as long as they have pleanty of content for people to enjoy on the way to 50 I dont have any problem with the speed of levelling.

yeah tedium. I remember once before being told they were increasing solo xp gain and guess what? I certainly don't see the difference. And I agree mmorpg aren't made for just leveling which isn't what I do never claimed too either. Who knows maybe they are changing it for the better now but they certainly went in the wrong direction to start with so forgive me if I take a wait and see approach. Additionally, you never know what they are gonna sneak in there i.e. when they increased the damage for Wizards and Warlocks and lowered fizzle rate but lo and behold more than tripled the resist rate.

Some examples of tedium

Shards = timesink nothing more why not just give more debt so it takes longer to work off?

roadblocks in all heritage quests that require you to camp for 4 hours to kill a named mob and of course some non heritage quests -- I am not saying make them easier but there could be alot more creativity to this i.e. make the named mob harder to get to so you have to do something like dungeon crawling to get to the mob and maybe another couple of steps to get there rather than sitting in one spot.

there are more but I am at work and don't have time for it

Maybe the main problem is I should not have preordered because par for the course for Sony is to release a game too soon and have people pay to beta test for them probably would feel much better about the game if I bought it today and started playing. Alot of my frustration probably stems from playing classes that had and still have many broken spells.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 12:27 PM

Samnas · 03-04-2005, 12:33 AM

minobu wrote:

Samnas wrote:

minobu wrote:

This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM

Increased exp again, mentoring, increased reward for quests..... this is tedium? The whole point of SOE is to keep us happy and continuing to play the game. Does this mean they dont want us to all get to 50 and blow through all their content in a week? I would think so, but why have so much content at low and mid-levels if you just blow right past them? MMORPG are not designed to be a game that the goal is just "finish" and then quit so of course they have to balance the pace of levelling with the content. At lvl 35 there is a lot of content below and around my lvl that I have not seen yet so as long as they have pleanty of content for people to enjoy on the way to 50 I dont have any problem with the speed of levelling.

yeah tedium. I remember once before being told they were increasing solo xp gain and guess what? I certainly don't see the difference. And I agree mmorpg aren't made for just leveling which isn't what I do never claimed too either. Who knows maybe they are changing it for the better now but they certainly went in the wrong direction to start with so forgive me if I take a wait and see approach. Additionally, you never know what they are gonna sneak in there i.e. when they increased the damage for Wizards and Warlocks and lowered fizzle rate but lo and behold more than tripled the resist rate.

Some examples of tedium

Shards = timesink nothing more why not just give more debt so it takes longer to work off?

roadblocks in all heritage quests that require you to camp for 4 hours to kill a named mob and of course some non heritage quests -- I am not saying make them easier but there could be alot more creativity to this i.e. make the named mob harder to get to so you have to do something like dungeon crawling to get to the mob and maybe another couple of steps to get there rather than sitting in one spot.

there are more but I am at work and don't have time for it

Maybe the main problem is I should not have preordered because par for the course for Sony is to release a game too soon and have people pay to beta test for them probably would feel much better about the game if I bought it today and started playing. Alot of my frustration probably stems from playing classes that had and still have many broken spells.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 12:27 PM

Well just cause you dont see the difference in solo exp sorry that does not mean it was not changed. I use an interface that gives exp to the tenth of a % so it is easy to tell exactly how much exp i get per mob and for the mobs I was hunting it seemed to be around 30% difference.

Shards I personally think are a great idea and I am guessing if they instead did something like double or triple the debt for death but got rid of shard people would be very unhappy. The shard is a good way to make death a minor inconvenience for 95%+ of deaths and you can normally easily retrieve it, but adds some difficulty if you are really stretching the limits of what you can accomplish or even going somewhere that is way beyond where you are capable of hunting. Tedium to one person is good game mechanics to another. Nothing makes either of us right since it is opinion, but to just post that the goal of SOE is to make it tedius I think is pretty unfair.

As for release too soon I have never seen a MMO released where the boards were not full of people saying the "released too soon" and "we are paying to beta test", etc. Some people thing we should not accept that as customers, but personally I am fine with it. I realize these companies are out to make money and while it may be possible to eliminate nearly all bugs/balance issues/etc in a long/large beta I do not expect it to be done. If the monetary return was there then companies would do it. It is not unique to MMO though it is in software in general. The other recently released major MMORPG comes from company known for great customer service and lengthly betas that remove 99% of the bugs. Of course when they did their first MMORPG it was/is a bugfest. If the game is released with a reasonable amount of bugs, but the game is still playable and fun for me then great it is worth my $15 a month I dont expect perfection.

mino · 03-04-2005, 02:00 AM

sanmas - ( not gonna bother reqouting getting WAY too long SMILEY

)

Yeah I understand that there are different play styles and I somewhat agree maybe I was being a bit harsh with that statement. I don't know what class you play and thats not really the point but there are some classes that although someone could log on and play them once they got to a certain point in their career they were nigh unplayable. Alot of those have since rerolled and started over but the point is that there were a few classes that over half their spells were broken and up until the 2/17 update one set of classes in particular that were all about damage didn't come close to the damage that the classes that were supposed to be about taking it. Now to me that almost makes the game unplayable for those classes. I think it mainly comes down to the 30+ game being very sloppy. I mean yeah for the first 30 levels the game truly rocks but then hit 30+ and you start seeing all the copied spells that do less than spells you had 10-15 levels before.

I am a programmer so I know it is impossible to put out a piece of software without bugs even more so on a program the size of EQ but the overwhelming number of bugs and broken spells seems a bit extreme.

Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 03:03 PM

Drtydog · 03-04-2005, 02:34 AM

Okay maybe i'm having a blonde day but i'm a little confused at the moment with this upcoming change.

is the change that if i'm at a level where the monsters in an area become gray and I'm grouped with a player lower than me, say 4 levels, then all teh gray mobs that use to run through will now aggro me

or

are we all sayign that if the gray mobs would con red to the lower level dude, even though they con gray to me, then they will aggro?

FamilyManFir · 03-04-2005, 02:48 AM

Eelyen wrote:
Pretty much from what I know you can group with people within 7 levels of you and the lowest player can still get xp. Meaning You could have a level 25 in group, and the max level in the group for that person to get xp would be 32. I think quest rewards extend an extra level or two.

What I've been told (and my gaming seems to validate this) is that the maximum difference in levels between groupmates is either 6 levels or 25% of the highest level character in the group, whichever is greater. Therefore a level 14 char can group with a level 20 char (6 levels difference) or a level 30 char can group with a level 40 char (10 levels of difference, from 40 x 25% = 10) and everyone can still receive experience. That calculation, btw, seems to include the % that each char is in within their level for borderline cases.Edit: Sorry, didn't see Wuphon's post that said the same thing.

Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 03-03-2005 01:50 PM

thorvang · 03-04-2005, 03:00 AM

this change adds the flavour of "real" guarding and proctection of lower players you group with. like that.exp is not all eq2 is about

Message Edited by thorvang on 03-03-2005 11:01 PM

FamilyManFir · 03-04-2005, 03:04 AM

buoymarker28 wrote:
Okay maybe i'm having a blonde day but i'm a little confused at the moment with this upcoming change.

is the change that if i'm at a level where the monsters in an area become gray and I'm grouped with a player lower than me, say 4 levels, then all teh gray mobs that use to run through will now aggro me
or

are we all sayign that if the gray mobs would con red to the lower level dude, even though they con gray to me, then they will aggro?

According to Moorgard's Update Notes, it's the latter, i.e. if you group with someone much lower level than you and you or he try to run past mobs that would, normally, con red to him but now con gray because you're so high level they'll still attack. If they would normally con yellow or lower they'll still cringe away.

Kalyndr · 03-04-2005, 03:13 AM

Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:

What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing?

With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along.

Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself.

If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this.

This is completely wrong. Unless the mob attacking is RED to the lowest lvl member in the group then it wont agro. This does not effect ALL mobs. I would suggest rereading what was written in the patch notes, before making incorrect and inflammatory statements.

Solkarr · 03-04-2005, 04:19 AM

While this will stop a mentor from un-mentoring to bypasss something and then re-mentor for the good kills, there are other methods which will not hurt the other currently accepted uses of greying things out. People for groups and raids for harvesting, this is a really really nice service high level players provide lower and mid level players. Also I provide escort services to guildies passing through Nek forest for betrayal quests, they are my friends and i want to make it easier for them then it was for me... owlbears are most certainly red at level 14 to 17... this would be a forgoten thing with this change. Also grouping a high level to allow you to get your shard (or 5 shards, etc) from a really nasty place you "discovered" while exploring would be a thing of the past... a LOT more shards would be left to decay =(

I propose instead a timer associated with mentoring... If you have mentored in the past hour you no-longer grey things out in the way mentioned in the patch... BUT if you have not been mentoring, it should go as it always has. This will stop the mentor / un-mentor / mentor exploit, without hurting the services higher level members can currently offer lower level players.

I am all for stopping exploits of a system, but not hurting current beneficial ways that players interact.

Dazzler_Twodir · 03-04-2005, 08:08 AM

Utess wrote:

WuphonsReach wrote:
The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen.

28 with a 21
29 with a 22
30 with a 23
31 with a 24
32 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32)
33 with a 25
34 with a 26
(etc)

This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player.

The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk.

Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of):

1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny).

2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it.

Also, this very tactic is what has made Rogue group stealth abilities so unvalued at most levels of play. Why group stealth and have a risk of discovery, when you can just group with someone temporarily who is many levels higher than you and safely bypass all the content. Or, use the greying out ability to accomplish quest goals without risk?

If, after this change, you still want to bypass mobs to get to a certain spot, just bring a Brigand or Swashbuckler with your group. That is what our group stealth abilities were designed for.

Rogue "Stealth" in EQ2 is such a sick joke anyway.

It doesn't exist.

Most of the time people i'm covering with Freeboot get jumped.

Crono1321 · 03-04-2005, 09:01 AM

Dazzler_Twodirks wrote:
Utess wrote:

WuphonsReach wrote:
The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen.

28 with a 21
29 with a 22
30 with a 23
31 with a 24
32 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32)
33 with a 25
34 with a 26
(etc)

This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player.

The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk.

Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of):

1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny).

2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it.

Also, this very tactic is what has made Rogue group stealth abilities so unvalued at most levels of play. Why group stealth and have a risk of discovery, when you can just group with someone temporarily who is many levels higher than you and safely bypass all the content. Or, use the greying out ability to accomplish quest goals without risk?

If, after this change, you still want to bypass mobs to get to a certain spot, just bring a Brigand or Swashbuckler with your group. That is what our group stealth abilities were designed for.
Rogue "Stealth" in EQ2 is such a sick joke anyway.
It doesn't exist.
Most of the time people i'm covering with Freeboot get jumped.

Thats because the idiots rogues group with always break group invis.Sprint34 swash

Siriln · 03-04-2005, 12:49 PM

It's not unknown for a higher level in my guild to come grey out mobs if someone died in a particularly awkward situation (someohow ended up in the middle of a TON of mobs, etc.). I've always considered this a service to other players as well, since we don't interfere with their hunting but can rescue a guildmate. If the current changes eliminate this ability, well, so be it, I would prefer not to interfere with the enjoyment of players who are the appropriate level for a zone, but I can assure you we will slaughter Blackburrow if need be. (My apologies to anyone who may have to wait for respawn.)

Dimgroth · 03-04-2005, 03:25 PM

its now better for roleplaying protecting of a lower friend but mainly its so the mentor system can go live without abuse.

Almeric_CoS · 03-05-2005, 12:49 AM

Tradeskill_Addict wrote:

I might add that in dungeons it has become a widespread habit to group just for getting past aggro mobs and finish an important quest (like priest hallmark in vermins snye which has to be done alone but getting to the instance alive is impossible that lvl 19).

Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 03-03-2005 08:46 AM

At level 19, there are absolutely zero mobs in Vermin's Snye that are red to you. Therefore, you could have a level 50 come in and grey out the zone and it wouldn't matter at all for the purposes of this change.

If you were trying to help a level 5, fresh-off-the-isle newbie get to the back of The Caves for the Baubbleshire Mineral Expert quest, then you'd have a problem.

Tradeskill_Addict · 03-05-2005, 01:10 AM

Almeric wrote:

Tradeskill_Addict wrote:

I might add that in dungeons it has become a widespread habit to group just for getting past aggro mobs and finish an important quest (like priest hallmark in vermins snye which has to be done alone but getting to the instance alive is impossible that lvl 19).

Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 03-03-2005 08:46 AM

At level 19, there are absolutely zero mobs in Vermin's Snye that are red to you. Therefore, you could have a level 50 come in and grey out the zone and it wouldn't matter at all for the purposes of this change.

If you were trying to help a level 5, fresh-off-the-isle newbie get to the back of The Caves for the Baubbleshire Mineral Expert quest, then you'd have a problem.

you are right about vermins snye I think - they are talking about red, not red-bordered mobs on test.

***** for a polite correction :smileyhappy:

FamilyManFir · 03-05-2005, 04:01 AM

Siriln wrote:
It's not unknown for a higher level in my guild to come grey out mobs if someone died in a particularly awkward situation (someohow ended up in the middle of a TON of mobs, etc.). I've always considered this a service to other players as well, since we don't interfere with their hunting but can rescue a guildmate. If the current changes eliminate this ability, well, so be it, I would prefer not to interfere with the enjoyment of players who are the appropriate level for a zone, but I can assure you we will slaughter Blackburrow if need be. (My apologies to anyone who may have to wait for respawn.)

Most of this kind of activity will still be possible. Remember, only mobs that are red to the low-level char will still aggro. Mobs orange and down will still cringe away. It would have to be an awfully awkward situation (read: very foolish players!) for your guildies to die in the middle of a mass of red-conned mobs!

Siriln · 03-05-2005, 07:31 AM

*sigh* And here I was trying to be calm and reasonable... For those who thought otherwise 1) I am not threatening the devs, I expect they will do as they see neccessary to balance the game. I was attempting to point out potential conflicts that this change could cause, perhaps I was unclear. 2) I have no desire to interfere with anyone elses game, as I would prefer they didn't interfere with mine. My concern is the potential for walking thru a crowded area and aggroing everyone elses camp. Frankly, if something starts beating on me I don't really want to sit there and wait for the group in the area to pull it back off... 3) Most problems with being killed by reds for us seem to involve either griffons or giants *swears at the raid mobs* in nice open areas, so hopefully the issue will never arise. For those unfamiliar with the phrase "so be it", in this context it's related to kai sera sera (definitely not how it's spelled, basically means whatever will be, will be), as in we'll worry when it happens and adapt.

03-03-2005, 08:16 PM	#1
Dazzler_Twodir Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing? With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along. Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself. If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this. __________________ Dazzler Twodirks Wood Elf Swashbuckler/Carpenter Member of Mistmoore Eternal Knights Now residing at 5 Erolissi Lane South Qeynos

03-03-2005, 08:22 PM	#2
Eelyen Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 161	The actual amount of grouping this will effect is limited. I can picture my level 32 group not as willing to take a level 25 into Runnyeye. Or atleast attempting to get a level 25 there. But, other then that. There isn't a whole lot of situations this will effect. I think it was done to help prevent the "looking for a high level to grey everything out." __________________ Eelyen Dalamar

03-03-2005, 08:30 PM	#3
Lancealittle Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 181	Dazzler_Twodirks wrote: What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing? With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along. Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself. If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this. This also fixes an issue with mentoring. As it stands you could mentor someone 30 levels below you and if you wanted to go around some agro mobs you just un-mentor. I know that at level 32 a level 26 is grey to me. I'm not sure what level a 26 is red to character, but if it's even 3 levels then that character is getting no xps or quest rewards for grouping with me. If I'm not mentoring him, then we should have no reason to group. __________________ Eeek- Ratonga Fury - Test Gildenrose - High Elf Swashbuckler - Test Lancealittle - Gnome Guardian - Test

03-03-2005, 08:36 PM	#4
Eelyen Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 161	Pretty much from what I know you can group with people within 7 levels of you and the lowest player can still get xp. Meaning You could have a level 25 in group, and the max level in the group for that person to get xp would be 32. I think quest rewards extend an extra level or two. __________________ Eelyen Dalamar

03-03-2005, 09:24 PM	#6
Lancealittle Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 181	minobu wrote: This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM More tedious how? Do you read the patch notes? They are making the game easier. XPs are being rasied, loot is easier to get, you can group with people you've outleveled, etc. If you grey out something that is red to someone else then they have no reason to be in your group to get the agro in the first place. If you are surrounded by agro reds you're in over your head and it should be dangerous for you. I completed the Zek bootstrutter quests while most of it was red to me. I guess I could have grouped with someone in their 40s and walked around all the greys, but I did it the 'tedious' way, or as I like to call it..the 'fun' way. __________________ Eeek- Ratonga Fury - Test Gildenrose - High Elf Swashbuckler - Test Lancealittle - Gnome Guardian - Test

03-03-2005, 09:15 PM	#5
mino General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM

03-03-2005, 09:28 PM	#7
Lancealittle Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 181	Eelyen wrote: The actual amount of grouping this will effect is limited. I can picture my level 32 group not as willing to take a level 25 into Runnyeye. Or atleast attempting to get a level 25 there. But, other then that. There isn't a whole lot of situations this will effect. I think it was done to help prevent the "looking for a high level to grey everything out." Hi there Eelyen. I just wanted to note something. A red to that 25 would still be green to you and agro anyway. You still have to go around it or fight it. There would be no mobs that are grey to you that would be red to him. __________________ Eeek- Ratonga Fury - Test Gildenrose - High Elf Swashbuckler - Test Lancealittle - Gnome Guardian - Test

03-03-2005, 09:30 PM	#8
WuphonsReach Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 558	The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen. 28 with a 2129 with a 2230 with a 2331 with a 2432 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32)33 with a 2534 with a 26(etc)This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player.The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk.Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of):1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny).2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it. __________________ -- Snabbik of Test Pre-order/account canceled on Sep 8 2005

03-03-2005, 09:44 PM	#9
Tradeskill_Addict Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 365	I might add that in dungeons it has become a widespread habit to group just for getting past aggro mobs and finish an important quest (like priest hallmark in vermins snye which has to be done alone but getting to the instance alive is impossible that lvl 19). I have mixed feelings both about this habit and the change because many high lvls have no problems to bodyguard but fighting through grey mobs for 15 minutes is a diferent matter. But outgreying doesnt really sound ok to me so I will accept that change if going live. Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 03-03-2005 08:46 AM __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- native german speaker so don't judge my posts by my grammar or spelling - thank you very much :smileywink:

03-03-2005, 10:04 PM	#10
Ute Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 123	WuphonsReach wrote:The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen. 28 with a 2129 with a 2230 with a 2331 with a 2432 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32)33 with a 2534 with a 26(etc)This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player.The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk.Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of):1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny).2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it. Also, this very tactic is what has made Rogue group stealth abilities so unvalued at most levels of play. Why group stealth and have a risk of discovery, when you can just group with someone temporarily who is many levels higher than you and safely bypass all the content. Or, use the greying out ability to accomplish quest goals without risk?If, after this change, you still want to bypass mobs to get to a certain spot, just bring a Brigand or Swashbuckler with your group. That is what our group stealth abilities were designed for. __________________

03-03-2005, 10:15 PM	#11
KudLenka Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 100	the subclass quests with solo instances should not be placed in dungeons like that. Even in group of few lvl 19 i had terrible troubles to get my fury quest done. in fact i needed help of high level. but none of the mobs there was red to me so the greying out would work with the change anyway. the important point is - the agressive mob needs to con RED to the lowest level. I dont have any issues with that. __________________

03-03-2005, 10:51 PM	#12
Samnas Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 49	minobu wrote: This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM Increased exp again, mentoring, increased reward for quests..... this is tedium? The whole point of SOE is to keep us happy and continuing to play the game. Does this mean they dont want us to all get to 50 and blow through all their content in a week? I would think so, but why have so much content at low and mid-levels if you just blow right past them? MMORPG are not designed to be a game that the goal is just "finish" and then quit so of course they have to balance the pace of levelling with the content. At lvl 35 there is a lot of content below and around my lvl that I have not seen yet so as long as they have pleanty of content for people to enjoy on the way to 50 I dont have any problem with the speed of levelling.

03-03-2005, 10:53 PM	#13
aeio Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 267	Dazzler_Twodirks wrote: What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing? With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along. Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself. If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this. Well the current situation allows higher level players to totally trivialize and bypass content for lower level players. I was never in favor of that mechanic, since beta. I am glad they finally decided to fix it.If you want to group with lower levels, then mentor them and you can face challenges together... otherwise group with appropriate level people.

03-03-2005, 11:20 PM	#14
mino General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	Samnas wrote: minobu wrote: This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM Increased exp again, mentoring, increased reward for quests..... this is tedium? The whole point of SOE is to keep us happy and continuing to play the game. Does this mean they dont want us to all get to 50 and blow through all their content in a week? I would think so, but why have so much content at low and mid-levels if you just blow right past them? MMORPG are not designed to be a game that the goal is just "finish" and then quit so of course they have to balance the pace of levelling with the content. At lvl 35 there is a lot of content below and around my lvl that I have not seen yet so as long as they have pleanty of content for people to enjoy on the way to 50 I dont have any problem with the speed of levelling. yeah tedium. I remember once before being told they were increasing solo xp gain and guess what? I certainly don't see the difference. And I agree mmorpg aren't made for just leveling which isn't what I do never claimed too either. Who knows maybe they are changing it for the better now but they certainly went in the wrong direction to start with so forgive me if I take a wait and see approach. Additionally, you never know what they are gonna sneak in there i.e. when they increased the damage for Wizards and Warlocks and lowered fizzle rate but lo and behold more than tripled the resist rate. Some examples of tedium Shards = timesink nothing more why not just give more debt so it takes longer to work off? roadblocks in all heritage quests that require you to camp for 4 hours to kill a named mob and of course some non heritage quests -- I am not saying make them easier but there could be alot more creativity to this i.e. make the named mob harder to get to so you have to do something like dungeon crawling to get to the mob and maybe another couple of steps to get there rather than sitting in one spot. there are more but I am at work and don't have time for it Maybe the main problem is I should not have preordered because par for the course for Sony is to release a game too soon and have people pay to beta test for them probably would feel much better about the game if I bought it today and started playing. Alot of my frustration probably stems from playing classes that had and still have many broken spells. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 12:27 PM

03-04-2005, 12:33 AM	#15
Samnas Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 49	minobu wrote: Samnas wrote: minobu wrote: This is just another way for Sony to make the game more tedius for the people that pay for the game so that they make it harder to hit 50. I am really dissapointed what seems like Sony's goal to make the game more tedius than it already is in an effort to slow down leveling. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 10:15 AM Increased exp again, mentoring, increased reward for quests..... this is tedium? The whole point of SOE is to keep us happy and continuing to play the game. Does this mean they dont want us to all get to 50 and blow through all their content in a week? I would think so, but why have so much content at low and mid-levels if you just blow right past them? MMORPG are not designed to be a game that the goal is just "finish" and then quit so of course they have to balance the pace of levelling with the content. At lvl 35 there is a lot of content below and around my lvl that I have not seen yet so as long as they have pleanty of content for people to enjoy on the way to 50 I dont have any problem with the speed of levelling. yeah tedium. I remember once before being told they were increasing solo xp gain and guess what? I certainly don't see the difference. And I agree mmorpg aren't made for just leveling which isn't what I do never claimed too either. Who knows maybe they are changing it for the better now but they certainly went in the wrong direction to start with so forgive me if I take a wait and see approach. Additionally, you never know what they are gonna sneak in there i.e. when they increased the damage for Wizards and Warlocks and lowered fizzle rate but lo and behold more than tripled the resist rate. Some examples of tedium Shards = timesink nothing more why not just give more debt so it takes longer to work off? roadblocks in all heritage quests that require you to camp for 4 hours to kill a named mob and of course some non heritage quests -- I am not saying make them easier but there could be alot more creativity to this i.e. make the named mob harder to get to so you have to do something like dungeon crawling to get to the mob and maybe another couple of steps to get there rather than sitting in one spot. there are more but I am at work and don't have time for it Maybe the main problem is I should not have preordered because par for the course for Sony is to release a game too soon and have people pay to beta test for them probably would feel much better about the game if I bought it today and started playing. Alot of my frustration probably stems from playing classes that had and still have many broken spells. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 12:27 PM Well just cause you dont see the difference in solo exp sorry that does not mean it was not changed. I use an interface that gives exp to the tenth of a % so it is easy to tell exactly how much exp i get per mob and for the mobs I was hunting it seemed to be around 30% difference. Shards I personally think are a great idea and I am guessing if they instead did something like double or triple the debt for death but got rid of shard people would be very unhappy. The shard is a good way to make death a minor inconvenience for 95%+ of deaths and you can normally easily retrieve it, but adds some difficulty if you are really stretching the limits of what you can accomplish or even going somewhere that is way beyond where you are capable of hunting. Tedium to one person is good game mechanics to another. Nothing makes either of us right since it is opinion, but to just post that the goal of SOE is to make it tedius I think is pretty unfair. As for release too soon I have never seen a MMO released where the boards were not full of people saying the "released too soon" and "we are paying to beta test", etc. Some people thing we should not accept that as customers, but personally I am fine with it. I realize these companies are out to make money and while it may be possible to eliminate nearly all bugs/balance issues/etc in a long/large beta I do not expect it to be done. If the monetary return was there then companies would do it. It is not unique to MMO though it is in software in general. The other recently released major MMORPG comes from company known for great customer service and lengthly betas that remove 99% of the bugs. Of course when they did their first MMORPG it was/is a bugfest. If the game is released with a reasonable amount of bugs, but the game is still playable and fun for me then great it is worth my $15 a month I dont expect perfection.

03-04-2005, 02:00 AM	#16
mino General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	sanmas - ( not gonna bother reqouting getting WAY too long ) Yeah I understand that there are different play styles and I somewhat agree maybe I was being a bit harsh with that statement. I don't know what class you play and thats not really the point but there are some classes that although someone could log on and play them once they got to a certain point in their career they were nigh unplayable. Alot of those have since rerolled and started over but the point is that there were a few classes that over half their spells were broken and up until the 2/17 update one set of classes in particular that were all about damage didn't come close to the damage that the classes that were supposed to be about taking it. Now to me that almost makes the game unplayable for those classes. I think it mainly comes down to the 30+ game being very sloppy. I mean yeah for the first 30 levels the game truly rocks but then hit 30+ and you start seeing all the copied spells that do less than spells you had 10-15 levels before. I am a programmer so I know it is impossible to put out a piece of software without bugs even more so on a program the size of EQ but the overwhelming number of bugs and broken spells seems a bit extreme. Message Edited by minobu on 03-03-2005 03:03 PM

03-04-2005, 02:34 AM	#17
Drtydog Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 83	Okay maybe i'm having a blonde day but i'm a little confused at the moment with this upcoming change. is the change that if i'm at a level where the monsters in an area become gray and I'm grouped with a player lower than me, say 4 levels, then all teh gray mobs that use to run through will now aggro me or are we all sayign that if the gray mobs would con red to the lower level dude, even though they con gray to me, then they will aggro? __________________ Octavos---- --80 Paly 80 Weaponsmith Galand --------80 ShadowKnight 80 Carpenter Mugmandos---80 Mystic 80 Alchemist Ratikal---------80 Dirge 80 Sage Savin-----------72 Warden 80 Jeweler Ashaa----------70 Bruiser 80 Armorer Kierra----------62 Assassin 80 Woodworker Vexulm--------35 Warlock 80 Tailor

03-04-2005, 02:48 AM	#18
FamilyManFir Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 499	Eelyen wrote: Pretty much from what I know you can group with people within 7 levels of you and the lowest player can still get xp. Meaning You could have a level 25 in group, and the max level in the group for that person to get xp would be 32. I think quest rewards extend an extra level or two. What I've been told (and my gaming seems to validate this) is that the maximum difference in levels between groupmates is either 6 levels or 25% of the highest level character in the group, whichever is greater. Therefore a level 14 char can group with a level 20 char (6 levels difference) or a level 30 char can group with a level 40 char (10 levels of difference, from 40 x 25% = 10) and everyone can still receive experience. That calculation, btw, seems to include the % that each char is in within their level for borderline cases.Edit: Sorry, didn't see Wuphon's post that said the same thing. Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 03-03-2005 01:50 PM

03-04-2005, 03:00 AM	#19
thorvang Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	this change adds the flavour of "real" guarding and proctection of lower players you group with. like that.exp is not all eq2 is about Message Edited by thorvang on 03-03-2005 11:01 PM __________________

03-04-2005, 03:04 AM	#20
FamilyManFir Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 499	buoymarker28 wrote: Okay maybe i'm having a blonde day but i'm a little confused at the moment with this upcoming change. is the change that if i'm at a level where the monsters in an area become gray and I'm grouped with a player lower than me, say 4 levels, then all teh gray mobs that use to run through will now aggro me or are we all sayign that if the gray mobs would con red to the lower level dude, even though they con gray to me, then they will aggro? According to Moorgard's Update Notes, it's the latter, i.e. if you group with someone much lower level than you and you or he try to run past mobs that would, normally, con red to him but now con gray because you're so high level they'll still attack. If they would normally con yellow or lower they'll still cringe away.

03-04-2005, 03:13 AM	#21
Kalyndr Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 19	Dazzler_Twodirks wrote: What high level wants to beatdown a gray mob for nothing? With this added you'll no longer see groups willing to let someone a few levels lower tag along. Traveling around with the see invis mobs is bad enough now ALL of them are gonna aggro and you get no experiance for defending yourself. If you're gonna change the game completely you better add chests to grey mobs that do this. This is completely wrong. Unless the mob attacking is RED to the lowest lvl member in the group then it wont agro. This does not effect ALL mobs. I would suggest rereading what was written in the patch notes, before making incorrect and inflammatory statements.

03-04-2005, 04:19 AM	#22
Solkarr Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 95	While this will stop a mentor from un-mentoring to bypasss something and then re-mentor for the good kills, there are other methods which will not hurt the other currently accepted uses of greying things out. People for groups and raids for harvesting, this is a really really nice service high level players provide lower and mid level players. Also I provide escort services to guildies passing through Nek forest for betrayal quests, they are my friends and i want to make it easier for them then it was for me... owlbears are most certainly red at level 14 to 17... this would be a forgoten thing with this change. Also grouping a high level to allow you to get your shard (or 5 shards, etc) from a really nasty place you "discovered" while exploring would be a thing of the past... a LOT more shards would be left to decay =( I propose instead a timer associated with mentoring... If you have mentored in the past hour you no-longer grey things out in the way mentioned in the patch... BUT if you have not been mentoring, it should go as it always has. This will stop the mentor / un-mentor / mentor exploit, without hurting the services higher level members can currently offer lower level players. I am all for stopping exploits of a system, but not hurting current beneficial ways that players interact. __________________

03-04-2005, 08:08 AM	#23
Dazzler_Twodir Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Utess wrote: WuphonsReach wrote: The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen. 28 with a 21 29 with a 22 30 with a 23 31 with a 24 32 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32) 33 with a 25 34 with a 26 (etc) This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player. The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk. Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of): 1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny). 2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it. Also, this very tactic is what has made Rogue group stealth abilities so unvalued at most levels of play. Why group stealth and have a risk of discovery, when you can just group with someone temporarily who is many levels higher than you and safely bypass all the content. Or, use the greying out ability to accomplish quest goals without risk? If, after this change, you still want to bypass mobs to get to a certain spot, just bring a Brigand or Swashbuckler with your group. That is what our group stealth abilities were designed for. Rogue "Stealth" in EQ2 is such a sick joke anyway. It doesn't exist. Most of the time people i'm covering with Freeboot get jumped. __________________ Dazzler Twodirks Wood Elf Swashbuckler/Carpenter Member of Mistmoore Eternal Knights Now residing at 5 Erolissi Lane South Qeynos

03-04-2005, 09:01 AM	#24
Crono1321 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 838	Dazzler_Twodirks wrote: Utess wrote: WuphonsReach wrote: The rule for grouping and still getting experience or quest updates is, 6 levels or 25% of the highest member's level. So, up until level 27, it's a 6-level range (a 31 can group with a 25, a 30 can group with a 24). After 28, it start's to widen. 28 with a 21 29 with a 22 30 with a 23 31 with a 24 32 with a 24 (gap widens to 8 levels at level 32) 33 with a 25 34 with a 26 (etc) This change fixes the exploit where a high level player sits at the zone line while lower level players waltz past content. Then, when they get to where they want to be (without any risk), they disband the higher level player and start fighting. A few minutes later, when they need to rest up or AFK, they re-invite the higher level player. The important thing to remember is that SOE does not want simple methods of turning risk vs reward into all-reward with no-risk. Now, there are a few approaches to fixing this issue (that I can think of): 1) The current fix where grey-con mobs that are only grey due to the average group level will still aggro. Easiest of all to program, and doesn't affect groups that aren't using the 'high level to grey-out the zone' method. Difficult to exploit. Now, the higher level player needs to accompany the lower level group safely through the dungeon (which at least requires some effort, and risk to the lower level players if the higher level player is not careful to kill anything that looks at them funny). 2) Make it so that the 'zone of grey' only matters if the group members are within range of the high level player. Tricky to program, adds some odd exploits where groups fight just out of range of the high level player. Makes more sense from a roleplay/reality standpoint, but the programming complexity (or coming up with rules that are as simple as possible, and no simpler, without allowing all sorts of corner cases) is probably why they didn't do it. Also, this very tactic is what has made Rogue group stealth abilities so unvalued at most levels of play. Why group stealth and have a risk of discovery, when you can just group with someone temporarily who is many levels higher than you and safely bypass all the content. Or, use the greying out ability to accomplish quest goals without risk? If, after this change, you still want to bypass mobs to get to a certain spot, just bring a Brigand or Swashbuckler with your group. That is what our group stealth abilities were designed for. Rogue "Stealth" in EQ2 is such a sick joke anyway. It doesn't exist. Most of the time people i'm covering with Freeboot get jumped. Thats because the idiots rogues group with always break group invis.Sprint34 swash __________________ Slips 70 Illusionist

03-04-2005, 12:49 PM	#25
Siriln Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Felwithe Posts: 23	It's not unknown for a higher level in my guild to come grey out mobs if someone died in a particularly awkward situation (someohow ended up in the middle of a TON of mobs, etc.). I've always considered this a service to other players as well, since we don't interfere with their hunting but can rescue a guildmate. If the current changes eliminate this ability, well, so be it, I would prefer not to interfere with the enjoyment of players who are the appropriate level for a zone, but I can assure you we will slaughter Blackburrow if need be. (My apologies to anyone who may have to wait for respawn.)

03-04-2005, 03:25 PM	#26
Dimgroth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 214	its now better for roleplaying protecting of a lower friend but mainly its so the mentor system can go live without abuse. __________________ -------------------------------------------------------- Nothing can stop me now, cause I dont care, anymore..

03-05-2005, 12:49 AM	#27
Almeric_CoS The L.G. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 381	Tradeskill_Addict wrote: I might add that in dungeons it has become a widespread habit to group just for getting past aggro mobs and finish an important quest (like priest hallmark in vermins snye which has to be done alone but getting to the instance alive is impossible that lvl 19). Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 03-03-2005 08:46 AM At level 19, there are absolutely zero mobs in Vermin's Snye that are red to you. Therefore, you could have a level 50 come in and grey out the zone and it wouldn't matter at all for the purposes of this change. If you were trying to help a level 5, fresh-off-the-isle newbie get to the back of The Caves for the Baubbleshire Mineral Expert quest, then you'd have a problem. __________________ Almeric's Blog: He doesn't know the meaning of the word "concise!"

03-05-2005, 01:10 AM	#28
Tradeskill_Addict Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 365	Almeric wrote: Tradeskill_Addict wrote: I might add that in dungeons it has become a widespread habit to group just for getting past aggro mobs and finish an important quest (like priest hallmark in vermins snye which has to be done alone but getting to the instance alive is impossible that lvl 19). Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 03-03-2005 08:46 AM At level 19, there are absolutely zero mobs in Vermin's Snye that are red to you. Therefore, you could have a level 50 come in and grey out the zone and it wouldn't matter at all for the purposes of this change. If you were trying to help a level 5, fresh-off-the-isle newbie get to the back of The Caves for the Baubbleshire Mineral Expert quest, then you'd have a problem. you are right about vermins snye I think - they are talking about red, not red-bordered mobs on test. ***** for a polite correction :smileyhappy: __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- native german speaker so don't judge my posts by my grammar or spelling - thank you very much :smileywink:

03-05-2005, 04:01 AM	#29
FamilyManFir Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 499	Siriln wrote: It's not unknown for a higher level in my guild to come grey out mobs if someone died in a particularly awkward situation (someohow ended up in the middle of a TON of mobs, etc.). I've always considered this a service to other players as well, since we don't interfere with their hunting but can rescue a guildmate. If the current changes eliminate this ability, well, so be it, I would prefer not to interfere with the enjoyment of players who are the appropriate level for a zone, but I can assure you we will slaughter Blackburrow if need be. (My apologies to anyone who may have to wait for respawn.) Most of this kind of activity will still be possible. Remember, only mobs that are red to the low-level char will still aggro. Mobs orange and down will still cringe away. It would have to be an awfully awkward situation (read: very foolish players!) for your guildies to die in the middle of a mass of red-conned mobs!

03-05-2005, 07:31 AM	#30
Siriln Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Felwithe Posts: 23	sigh And here I was trying to be calm and reasonable... For those who thought otherwise 1) I am not threatening the devs, I expect they will do as they see neccessary to balance the game. I was attempting to point out potential conflicts that this change could cause, perhaps I was unclear. 2) I have no desire to interfere with anyone elses game, as I would prefer they didn't interfere with mine. My concern is the potential for walking thru a crowded area and aggroing everyone elses camp. Frankly, if something starts beating on me I don't really want to sit there and wait for the group in the area to pull it back off... 3) Most problems with being killed by reds for us seem to involve either griffons or giants swears at the raid mobs in nice open areas, so hopefully the issue will never arise. For those unfamiliar with the phrase "so be it", in this context it's related to kai sera sera (definitely not how it's spelled, basically means whatever will be, will be), as in we'll worry when it happens and adapt.