Effect of value changes and increased fuel costs at T2. A specific example.

[Wikfizb]

 

I moved some of my crafters from runnyeye so that I could see some of the impacts of these changes firsthand and judge for myself how sever they are.  I did one workshop task taking not of various price changes through my progress.  For the purpose of these calculations, I give the raw resources no value and assume a perfect pristine rate on washes oils and tempers for a yield of 4(which imo is not realistic, but I do so to help illustrate a point)

 

Task: Create 10 shaped tanned leather sheaths

 

Cost to create 1 sheath with current live economy: 60c

Cost to create 1 sheath with current test economy: 213c

 

Vendor buy back price for 1 sheath: 117c

Cash awarded for task: 16s 80c (168c per item crafted)

 

Presently, this results in a LOSS of 4s 50c for doing a workshop task (not a writ), and an even bigger loss if you sell to the vendor (oops, I got any quality other than shaped).  As mentioned in other threads, a big part of the problem here is that the new fuel costs do not seem to be factored into the new values of the finished goods.  I also strongly suspect that the vendor value for washes, oils, resins and tempers is being used rather than anything the resembles the minimum cost to make those as well.  The vendor buyback values also seem to be reduced across the board as well.  If either the fuel costs of price changes were done individualy without the other to compound their effect, it would still be possible to advance through vendor sales and workshop tasks.  As it is now, no longer being dependant on finding other players to make the sub components I need will be meaningless to my advancement rate as I will be forced into an unwanted life as an adventurer if I want to continue crafting in order to afford it and I foresee advancing at a much slower rate than before because of these cost changes.  Some more numbers to ponder.

 

Costs. (again 0 value used for raw resource and yield of 4 on worts)

 

T2 wort - live: 3c

T2 wort - test: 7.5c

T2 refine - live: 9c

T2 refine - test: 31.5c

T2 sub component (1 step) - live: 18c

T2 sub component (1 step) - test: 63c

 

T3 wort - live: 3c

T3 wort - test: 25.5

T3 refine - live: 9c

T3 refine - test: 201.5c

T3 sub component (1 step) - live: 18c

T3 sub component (1 step) - test: 323c

 

Vendor buyback values

 

T2 refine - live: 50c (41c profit)

T2 refine - test: 12c (19.5c loss)

T2 sub component - live: 100c (82c profit)

T2 sub component - test: 45c (18c loss)

 

T3 refine - live: 200c (191c profit)

T3 refine - test: 48c (153.5c loss)

T3 sub component - live: 400c (382c profit)

T3 sub component - test: 180c (143c loss)

 

Next I willl present what a scenario would look like with the new fuel costs and current live vendor sellback prices.

 

T2 refine: 50c - 31.5c = 18.5c profit

T2 sub component: 100c - 63c = 37c profit

 

T3 refine: 200c - 201.5c = 1.5c loss

T3 sub component: 400c - 323c = 77c profit

 

The profits in this above scenario are still less than the average cost to purchase a raw resource from the broker unless you find a good deal (and remember, this is an idea situation where you have all the crafters at your service to make things nativly without the new double fuel for sub components too).  SImply changing the fuel costs and ONLY the fuel costs will give the economy the desired effects of making vendor selling a way to get by, but with profit margins that would encourage selling to other players.  Please consider wether you wish to force crafters into a life of adventuring (like EQ1) in order to afford crafting or if you want crafters to be able to be dedicated to just crafting as an advancement path.

 

Lenthaldar - 14 Gnome Predator / 19 Outfitter - Grobb
Wiktoxbik - 10 Gnome Crusader / 23 Alchemist - Grobb
Wiktoxbik - 11 Gnome Crusader / 16 Scholar - Permafrost
Wiktoxbik - 10 Gnome Brawler / 26 woodworker - Test Server
Zeludrax - 14 Iksar Druid / 17 Outfitter - Test Server
Lenthaldar - 14 Gnome Predator / 16 Outfitter - Lucan
Snergle - ?? Dwarf Fighter / 18 Craftsman - Lucan
Fengrom - ?? Halfling Mage / 16 Scholar - Lucan

 

Message Edited by Wikfizbik on 02-13-2005 09:01 AM

[SemaJyn]

Very well thought out and documented.  Perfectly describes the mistakes in the current test enviornment.

 

Sad that Sony doesn't care :smileysad:

[ja]

Yes I like the work you did.  I gave an example of maybe a way to achieve what soe is trying to achieve without forcing upon people the path of adventurer and not giving them the option of going pure artisan.  I posted on the other thread in forum though.  Here's the copy of the idea here too.

 

 

I guess my biggest complaint is the HUGE change in fuel costs.  Ok I can understand the need to balance the system and making it viable for when we have huge amounts of level 50 crafters.  But the system as it is right now punishes those that are crafters only.  How in the world do they expect a level 30 crafter (artisan only no hunting skills) to come up with 3s, 84c per unit of fuel.  Now a change in the fuel system I can see yes, but why not set the system for something that all can accomplish and reach.  A good suggestion might be to change the units of fuel needed to make one recipe.

 

IE:

wild apple fizzlepop: to make right now uses 4 units of fuel.  One for apple juice, one for refined honey, one for honey fizzlepop and one for the finished wild apple fizzlepop.

 

 

Change this something to this effect:

 

Wild apple fizzlepop:  to make with new system uses 11 units of fuel.  Two for apple juice, one for refined honey, three for honey fizzlepop and 5 for finished wild apple fizzlepop.

 

This of course if just a general quick example no basis for cost ect.  But by doing that you keep the cost of fuel down to where the true artisan's can afford to by their traits but at the same time making the higher tier items a little more costly to make and there by balancing the system out.  Just a quick suggestion instead of making it almost impossible for there to be a character that is true artisan and that's it.

[Sunlei]

 Good examples above. My crafter is level 34 and adventurer level 8...I just don't use adventure loot at all because it's copper at lvl 8.

 

I won't ever do another workshop task if it's at a loss.

 

Wish I had done many more of them like the others much smarter then me...spent to much time exploring.

 

It even says in the manual that the workshop tasks are for EARNING MONEY for supplies. Not anymore...better change the manual soe. 

 

 

[Ethi]

---

SemaJynot wrote:

Very well thought out and documented.  Perfectly describes the mistakes in the current test enviornment.

 

Sad that Sony doesn't care :smileysad:

---

This is a test server.  SOE devs have already stated that tasks will provide a 20% profit margin based on fuel costs for items made.  So the discrepancies here are bugs which is the point of working on a test server, to find and report bugs.

[Rock]

Being a Carpenter i'm concerned. When making boxes which only sell if pristine, i may stop production 6 or more times before hitting the first bar to increase chance of success. Cant imagine what my costs will be when i burn 6 or more fuel to have 1 box pristine.

[Qixt]

I believe this may be one of the "hidden" agendas of the increased fuel costs.  Previously it was stated that "pristine" had become too much the norm.  Then the tradeskill changes happened making it a little more difficult to reach the pristine state.

 

We figured it out again and with work the pristines continued into the game too fast and are still  the norm and expected.  So now fuel costs are being raised as a money sink for those times when you have to stop progress early burning fuel to hope to get to a pristine status.  This was my first thought after I heard of fuel prices increasing, they may be  doing this to slow down the pristines and put in a money sink at the same time.

 

Message Edited by Qixter on 02-14-2005 05:28 AM

[lockhea]

I think after the fuel changes go in you won't see people stopping production anymore unless they are going to lose all there componets, instead you will see people selling there lesser quality items to the vendor and as long as the selling price to the vendor is equal to the fuel costs or slightly above I don't think there will be a problem. Will it be slower sure but I don't think they want people stoping and restarting there crafting so much as it happens right now.

 

 

[Pkac]

I can't imagine how they could have made a mistake on this issue, I think these must be the prices they meant to have... Not that I agree in any way.

 

I mean, I perfectly understand how bugs happen, but this is simple math. They have all the cost tables in front of them, and they have all the recipes in front of them. So, how on earth they can fail to add up stuff correctly, and then fail to check the addition...

 

I was under the impression that the test server was for testing game mechanics, not to act as a check on SOE's math... If they just can't add up we may as well give up now.

 

Pka

[Chandigar]

---

Pkachu wrote:

I can't imagine how they could have made a mistake on this issue, I think these must be the prices they meant to have... Not that I agree in any way.

 

I mean, I perfectly understand how bugs happen, but this is simple math. They have all the cost tables in front of them, and they have all the recipes in front of them. So, how on earth they can fail to add up stuff correctly, and then fail to check the addition...

 

I was under the impression that the test server was for testing game mechanics, not to act as a check on SOE's math... If they just can't add up we may as well give up now.

 

Pka

---

Uh, it may be simple math, but its not like they have one button they can push to update everything. All the crafted items in the game need to be recalculated and then manually inputted. Do you want to wait for one tech to sit there for 3 days and type in those numbers or push what you have now on the TEST server so you can actually TEST new game mechanics?

And before you say that they have hundreds of employees, those employees are doing other stuff, so you're still delaying everything else to type in those numbers.

[Furi]

---

lockheart wrote:

I think after the fuel changes go in you won't see people stopping production anymore unless they are going to lose all there componets, instead you will see people selling there lesser quality items to the vendor and as long as the selling price to the vendor is equal to the fuel costs or slightly above I don't think there will be a problem. Will it be slower sure but I don't think they want people stoping and restarting there crafting so much as it happens right now.

 

 

---

Where the fuel cost change is really going to hurt will be when crafting rare armors and weapons.  I haven't crafted any rares above blackened iron, but most of those crafts, even the refines, take 3-5 fuels each so crafting a rare becomes an incredibly expensive proposition at higher tiers when you are going to be using multiple silver per unit fuel AND having to use the stop/start method to give the best chance of it coming out pristine.

Combine that with the crapshoot that crafting in general has become already and crafting rare weapons and armor just won't seem worth it anymore...

[SemaJyn]

---

Chandigar wrote:

Uh, it may be simple math, but its not like they have one button they can push to update everything. All the crafted items in the game need to be recalculated and then manually inputted. Do you want to wait for one tech to sit there for 3 days and type in those numbers or push what you have now on the TEST server so you can actually TEST new game mechanics?

And before you say that they have hundreds of employees, those employees are doing other stuff, so you're still delaying everything else to type in those numbers.

---

Manually inputted? You're kidding right?

 

Simple script:

 

int CalculatePrice(CRecipe recipe) {

  if (recipe.numComps == 1) {

    // recipe is a single component

    if (recipe.isLiquid() ) { return 6; }

    if (recipe.isFuel() ) {return 6 * 4 ^ recipe.tier;}

    if (recipe.isRaw() ) {return 0; }

  }

  int price;

  for (int i = 0, i< recipe.numComps, i++&nbsp {

    price = price + CalculatePrice(recipe.comp[i]);

  }

  price = price / recipe.yield;

  return price;

}

 

Now, run that on every recipe in the Database over night and it's Done.

[Pkac]

---

Chandigar wrote:

---

Pkachu wrote:

I can't imagine how they could have made a mistake on this issue, I think these must be the prices they meant to have... Not that I agree in any way.

 

I mean, I perfectly understand how bugs happen, but this is simple math. They have all the cost tables in front of them, and they have all the recipes in front of them. So, how on earth they can fail to add up stuff correctly, and then fail to check the addition...

 

I was under the impression that the test server was for testing game mechanics, not to act as a check on SOE's math... If they just can't add up we may as well give up now.

 

Pka

---

Uh, it may be simple math, but its not like they have one button they can push to update everything. All the crafted items in the game need to be recalculated and then manually inputted. Do you want to wait for one tech to sit there for 3 days and type in those numbers or push what you have now on the TEST server so you can actually TEST new game mechanics?

And before you say that they have hundreds of employees, those employees are doing other stuff, so you're still delaying everything else to type in those numbers.

---

No, I'm talking about the fact that Writs and Tasks now pay back less than the cost to produce them. I am absolutely certain they can search the Recipe Database for (for example) 'Fayberry Margarita' and have it return :

1 x Fayberry, 1 x Blue Succulent, 1 x water, 2 x Yeast, 1 x sugar, 1 x salt, 4 x Fuel.

Enter this into the Vendor Price Database, and hey presto, we have what a writ 'should' now pay for 1 Fayberry Margarita.

I really don't see how it can be so complicated? are you saying it's better to just guess the prices for now as it's a bit quicker, then get the test community to say 'it's wrong' then guess a bit more until in a few weeks its just about right.

 

[Pkac]

---

SemaJynot wrote:

Manually inputted? You're kidding right?

 

Simple script:

 

int CalculatePrice(CRecipe recipe) {

  if (recipe.numComps == 1) {

    // recipe is a single component

    if (recipe.isLiquid() ) { return 6; }

    if (recipe.isFuel() ) {return 6 * 4 ^ recipe.tier;}

    if (recipe.isRaw() ) {return 0; }

  }

  int price;

  for (int i = 0, i< recipe.numComps, i++&nbsp {

    price = price + CalculatePrice(recipe.comp[i]);

  }

  price = price / recipe.yield;

  return price;

}

 

Now, run that on every recipe in the Database over night and it's Done.

---

Exactly, then come back in the morning, get someone with a calculator to pull off 40 random recipes from the new database and check them. If they are ok, then send to update, if not, check script, run again.

 

How hard can it be? how many people do SOE have on the staff? 3?

 

[Chandigar]

---

Pkachu wrote:

Exactly, then come back in the morning, get someone with a calculator to pull off 40 random recipes from the new database and check them. If they are ok, then send to update, if not, check script, run again.

 

How hard can it be? how many people do SOE have on the staff? 3?

 

---

And... you think [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about it is going to make it go faster? Maybe if you don't have the patience to test out partial / in-progress patches you should just play on a regular server and wait for complete updates to go live.

[Pkac]

---

Chandigar wrote:

---

Pkachu wrote:

Exactly, then come back in the morning, get someone with a calculator to pull off 40 random recipes from the new database and check them. If they are ok, then send to update, if not, check script, run again.

 

How hard can it be? how many people do SOE have on the staff? 3?

 

---

And... you think [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about it is going to make it go faster? Maybe if you don't have the patience to test out partial / in-progress patches you should just play on a regular server and wait for complete updates to go live.

---

 Easy Tiger,

All I'm saying is that it doesn't fill me with confidence to see a Dev making a mistake this easily, and it passing CQ to get pushed to a server. Like I said, test shouldn't exist to test basic math, I would expect QC to catch something like that...

I worry that SOE is stretched too thin making new content to charge us for, and doesn't have the neccessary staff to be checking and fixing current content, if basic addition errors make it to ANY server.

 

Pka