Instead of app4 a pristine combine should be adept1

ekiand · 12-28-2004, 01:02 AM

I really don't understand the logic behind the addition of app4. I understand why it was added, to make quality matter for a sage, but it does nothing to address the problems of a sage. Well I think my suggestion nicely fixes both issues. A sage can now compete with adept1 drops and also make the quality of his craft matter.

Armeng · 12-28-2004, 01:29 AM

I have to agree on the adept 1 books, however imo the drop rates are too high on them is really the problem

PhourZwanZig · 12-28-2004, 02:50 AM

To high.. LOL.. my lvl 20 (almost 21) necromancer only has on adept 1 skill, and I do have a hard time even seeing those skills for sale.. So I wouldnt say they are too High drop rate.. To me it seems that Some just drop more than others, so it just might need a tweak in the randomness of which Adepts drop..

Edit.. As far as the App4 spells.. I love this change.. Now if I cant find my drops (well when this hits live, my test char still has alot of App1-3 spells and 1 App 4) my necro can upgrade her spells to gain some ground.. being 20 w/o Adepts is making her a lil weak

Message Edited by PhourZwanZig on 12-27-2004 01:52 PM

Di0Xi · 12-28-2004, 02:53 AM

I got about half my skills 1-29 in adept1 but above that I've only found 2.. and I've been searching for 31-45 skills for a few days now on brokers and there really aren't that many. Edit: Doh, sorry didn't notice was posting on tester forum :p, I just clicked the title from outside since sounded interesting.. but I'm talking of the non-test servers when I quote my experiance with drops. It may have changed. Anyway.. I don't want crafters to make adept1 that would make the drops pretty much useless most of the time.

Message Edited by Di0XiDe on 12-27-2004 10:03 PM

ekiand · 12-28-2004, 07:37 AM

Di0XiDe wrote:

Anyway.. I don't want crafters to make adept1 that would make the drops pretty much useless most of the time.
Message Edited by Di0XiDe on 12-27-2004 10:03 PM

How is being able to craft the exact same thing that drops making drops useless. All this deos is make crafted spells/skills useful. If you want an upgrade you get options from this:

1) Buy from crafter

2) Buy from other player that found a scroll drop

3) Wait and hope you can find a possible drop

App4 does nothing to make the crafted skills viable with the adept drops and I thought the whole intent was to make the crafters an integral part of EQ2. As of now they have been hampered. bugged, and marginalized. Another option would to have the crafters instill magic on the adepts so you still need a crafter to be able to use that adept1 drop. As of know the adept1 drops are stifling crafters the Sage in particular.

The reason you can't find necro adept drops is because they don't drop at all.

MadChapeli · 12-28-2004, 09:32 AM

While I do not play on test, I've been thinking a lot on this issue of App 4 and Adept 1.

I think that Adept 1 drops need to be reduced ONLY for those that have a high rate of drop atm. There are some that seem very rare and some that seem very common and I think it should be an even chance for anything when it comes to books. Now that makes Adept 1 book drops uncommon/rare. Now, as for App 4, I think if it was either as powerful as Adept 1 or just a nice middleground between Adept and App 3 we'd all be happy. The thing is though, that Adept 1 tends to give some major bonuses that App 3 lacks, and will likely not be included in App 4. The question here is why is it that adventuring for skills, killing hundreds

of mobs in hopes of finding your skill/spell Adept is favored over the crafting of it? Crafting is perhaps the most tedious and expensive means to gain Adept quality.

Not only does the economy inflate the prices of rare components (which I can understand.. they are rare after all) but it makes it impossible for some of us (like me, who on live cannot find Tellurian Soldier in adept form in any method other than crafting.. which means that poor little me will likely never see it) to ever obtain. I think that high level Artisans should be able to gain a skill that I'll just call "Keen Eye" that only increases as your artisan level increases. This skill would allow a bonus to be given to the odds of finding a rare component. A level 30 Artisan should have a far easier time finding rares in Tier 1 zones than a level 5 Artisan. Now if that same 30 artisan went to a Tier 5 zone, they would have almost no chance at finding a rare. They're dealing with materials far outside of their knowledge in higher tiers, and dealing with materials they've mastered and know intimately. The bonus would be small, but any bonus will be helpful to those people who spend so much time tradeskilling and keep those who have no interest in tradeskilling from hawking rares to those who can really use it (to a greater degree).

I feel that Sages should be capable of producing any quality book up to Adept 4 (Master tomes are relics from the past, there will be no argument from me that Sages should never be able to craft these), as long as they can attain the proper materials. If recipes were added so that Uncommon harvests (not presently in game) which are far more common than rares, but far less common than common, they could be used to make Adept 1 quality, where Adept 1 would be Pristine, App 4 would be 3rd and so on. That would add a diversity to the game that I think Sages truly deserve. Few people choose that path simply because it's difficult to raise and even more difficult to profit from.

I mostly am hoping to see some change made that will help balance the economy better by making access to Adept 1 for everyone more possible.

Syanis · 12-28-2004, 11:13 AM

I thought of this before also. It could work but the possible downfall is since now we'd be craftin an adept 1 (needa have it look like a normal spell scroll imo) issue will arise that may lower the value of what we craft adept 1 thats a common drop just person xyz couldn't find it at the time. Now we craft a bunch of adept 1's n toss em on our vendor for the night.... someone else throws up adept 1's droped for the seeming normal price of adept 1's being 15-20sp for 20-29..... now when a 20-29 spell/skill costs us 40spish to make and we charge 50-60sp for end product we're looked at as overcharging majorly cause its just an adept 1 ... drop right?

Maybe a better way is having app 4 equal to adept 1's (and post it specifically from SoE on equivalency). really thou just needa tone down the adept 1 drops majorly thou.

Syanis 37 sage Steamfont

stewi · 12-28-2004, 01:43 PM

Syanis wrote:

I thought of this before also. It could work but the possible downfall is since now we'd be craftin an adept 1 (needa have it look like a normal spell scroll imo) issue will arise that may lower the value of what we craft adept 1 thats a common drop just person xyz couldn't find it at the time. Now we craft a bunch of adept 1's n toss em on our vendor for the night.... someone else throws up adept 1's droped for the seeming normal price of adept 1's being 15-20sp for 20-29..... now when a 20-29 spell/skill costs us 40spish to make and we charge 50-60sp for end product we're looked at as overcharging majorly cause its just an adept 1 ... drop right?

Maybe a better way is having app 4 equal to adept 1's (and post it specifically from SoE on equivalency). really thou just needa tone down the adept 1 drops majorly thou.

Syanis 37 sage Steamfont

that is only a downfall if the sage doesnt do his homework. even if you could craft adept1's for every skill, no sage on my server would even try to compete with certain book drops. for instance, on the market now are about 30 adept1's for daunting gaze, which is an enchanter drop. since enchanters are somewhat rare and the book drops at a ludicrous rate, it would be silly to make that spell..

of course, if you do your homework, asking classes what they need, you will notice many skills drop only rarely, or never at all.. i would pay a gold or more for an adept1 entrance if it was on the market. trust me, i know which of my spells are rare drops, and will pay what i have to to get them. sages would lose no sales unless they made nondesireable spells.

that said, i too would like to see them change it to crafting app2 for base, adept1 for pristine. they could even change the rare spells that way too.. adept2 for base, master1 for pristine.

Anlari · 12-28-2004, 06:15 PM

I'm with the original poster on this. The number of times I have made a "pristine" quality scroll is rare indeed. This means that as long as app 4 spells can be made, then that is all that will sell. Noone will want anything lower then app 4. With the rate of success in getting an app 4 so low, I honestly think this make most of what we scribe completely useless. So then we have our few app 4 spells, they now have to compete with the Adept 1 drops. I know when I'm not playing my crafter now a days, that I no longer even worry about App spells most of the time. I would rather wait and save and buy them off vendors or try and find a drop of Adept. I have 5 characters currently (yes I pay the extra for the extra slots, SOE got me) and I have nearly every ability on each of them at adept 1.

All in all, this is an upgrade that is mearly a smoke screen and not a fix for the problem at all. It does nothing realy to help scribes, and does far more to hurt them in my opinion.

kata · 12-28-2004, 06:49 PM

As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them. A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.) Part two: the chest never "unlocks" to people outside the group (yes it sucks, but it prevents the "guy standing next to it" scenario and keeps in line the idea of "risk vs. reward", that you didn't "risk" the encounter therefore you can't just wait around for the reward.)

As for app2 through app4, I'm ambivilent. If it results in "shaped ink" (along with one hopes quills and paper) being for sale on tradeskill instance vendors so sages can at least skillup and levelup and do wholesaler quests. Since the best possible result for shaped ink would be an app2 spell, hardly marketable SMILEY

, this would allow sages to gain levels without going broke.

Shazzbott_Feldercarb · 12-28-2004, 07:20 PM

Right now, with crude ink, i can make an spp3 spell on live. This is the only tradeskil that does not have a scaleing quality level. This change does nothing more then make scribing spells act the same as all the other tradeskills.This isn't a change to the way spells power up, it has no bearing on Adepts. It simply makes the scroll/rune/essence skills work the same as all the other tradeskills.As for drop rate for adepts, that is something different.Just my 2cpShazz

Lancealittle · 12-28-2004, 08:30 PM

Don't forget how the items scale. Crafters can already make an item better than the group mob drop with Adept 3.

Apprentice 3 (and now 4) are player crafted items made from common components. That's above store purchased spells (app2) but below items crafted from rare resources. That fits in with how items from other crafters work as well.

The problem really lies in what's dropping the spells. Normal group mobs are dropping spells that are better than the common crafted item. You may upgrade a spell from a common mob drop, but if you get a sword or piece of armor it will be junk compared to a similar level crafted item.

App3 and 4 are fine the way they are, they just need to move adept 1 to named mobs. That would make them less common and not attainable by someone soloing green ^^.

They also can make it so adept dropped spells are no trade. With so many different types of spells, people may find 10 or more before they find one they can use themselves, and then they sell the rest on the market. If everyone is finding spells, then there are many more spells on the market than people who need them. That won't happen, because then they have to do that with all mob dropped items to be fair.

Feaw · 12-28-2004, 09:08 PM

If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift.

Kwoung · 12-28-2004, 10:30 PM

katahn wrote:

As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them. A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.)

That is a terrible idea... they already have TLC to deal with that, if someone wants to hunt for no XP in order to get something they need for themselves, a friend or to sell that is their business... they are giving up XP to do so, which is more than enough of a downside.

I personally disable XP on many occassions for many different reasons, the main one being the ability to let my friends catch up while still allowing me to help them do so. Us having to give up all chances of loot dropping would be a terrible thing. Not to mention getting stuff like language quests that require drops from chests to complete... I already screwed up and outleveled WC with only one page to go, I am not going to let that happen again even if I have to disable XP for days to get the drop.

kata · 12-30-2004, 12:01 AM

Kwoung wrote:

katahn wrote:

As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them. A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.)

That is a terrible idea... they already have TLC to deal with that, if someone wants to hunt for no XP in order to get something they need for themselves, a friend or to sell that is their business... they are giving up XP to do so, which is more than enough of a downside.

I personally disable XP on many occassions for many different reasons, the main one being the ability to let my friends catch up while still allowing me to help them do so. Us having to give up all chances of loot dropping would be a terrible thing. Not to mention getting stuff like language quests that require drops from chests to complete... I already screwed up and outleveled WC with only one page to go, I am not going to let that happen again even if I have to disable XP for days to get the drop.

I agree the TLC is annoying as all get out, it was the reason I had to give up on the orc language quest in the Wailing Caves. But its like encounter locking prevents kill-stealing, and allows for better encounter tuning, or the fact that mobs away from their start point are highly unlikely to aggro passerbys unless attacked first preventing training. They are measures meant to counteract a misuse of game features or other forms of griefing. Disabling xp gain to farm mobs that drop good-value loot happens, if nothing else people can and did stay on the Isle of Refuge farming for rare artisan book drops.

The solution there was to remove them from the drop tables, which I think is a bit unfortunate. It pretty much deprives the genuine newbie of the chance to discover a really cool item. As I see it, the solution is either to move adept1 spell drops to the named++ group mobs for the level or level range, or leave them in and make it so they can't be farmed (or farmed for long or easily.) Either way works. Disabling chest drops or items from being in chests that aren't quest related, lore, nodrop, or some combination of the above, allows for avoiding the "get the named mob for the cool loot" mentality of EQLive but also blocks farming of sellables that can disrupt the economy.

In other words, mobs wouldn't drop vendorable loot in chests, but would continue to drop items that were basically not vendorable at all and especially if they were quest related. The farmers are driven out of business, and those using the disabled xp gain in a less disruptive fashion aren't penalized beyond the inability to farm easy cash.

The reason this issue is even noticable is because adept1 drops aren't vendorable for more than a few silver pieces, whereas comparable drops from mobs are vendorable for fairly decent coin, at least in comparison to what is on the market from players. Since short of harvesting a rare, a sage cannot do better than apprentice 3 (apprentice 4 when the change goes live), adept drops are automatically the best thing typically on the market. So, since they can be gotten "easily", aren't worth it to sell to NPCs, and will almost always be the best, you see a lot of them for sale. But just because the problem is visible the most there, doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere. After all, this is why we don't have coin loot (ie. people could disable xp gain and farm it forever and disrupt the economy.)

What EQ2 does need, is some form of "sidekicking" or "reverse sidekicking" ala City of Heroes. Something that allows friends to group together without needing to roll up an alt (assuming they have a free slot.) That would get around the "need" to disable xp gain in order to not outlevel your friends.

CerraWhisperwind · 12-30-2004, 11:02 AM

Anlarius wrote:
I'm with the original poster on this. The number of times I have made a "pristine" quality scroll is rare indeed. This means that as long as app 4 spells can be made, then that is all that will sell. Noone will want anything lower then app 4. With the rate of success in getting an app 4 so low, I honestly think this make most of what we scribe completely useless. So then we have our few app 4 spells, they now have to compete with the Adept 1 drops. Note from a level 18 scholar on test: for apprentice IV scrolls, once I became level 10 and got my second set of crafting buffs for scholar, I have never failed to get pristine on the spell combine, even when doing white con spells. My ink rate early on was about 75% pristine (requires 3 combines all pristine) but has improved to about 95% (1 in 20 not pristine). Even if you loose pristine during the crafting session, you can get it back with the 2nd set of buffs. People won't have any problems pumping out the pristine spells.

nicholaspoi · 12-30-2004, 09:58 PM

I totaly agree with the original post. I am a level 24 sage (Enoel Everforst) and I can only make apprentice spells? that sell for less than adept1 spells? errrr why call me a sage then? Hey Sony Online, why not just call me an apprentice duh!!!!!

Regards,

Enoel

Sage lev 24 (realy like apprentice level 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Everfrost

ekiand · 01-01-2005, 01:45 AM

CerraWhisperwind wrote:

Note from a level 18 scholar on test: for apprentice IV scrolls, once I became level 10 and got my second set of crafting buffs for scholar, I have never failed to get pristine on the spell combine, even when doing white con spells. My ink rate early on was about 75% pristine (requires 3 combines all pristine) but has improved to about 95% (1 in 20 not pristine). Even if you loose pristine during the crafting session, you can get it back with the 2nd set of buffs.

People won't have any problems pumping out the pristine spells.

I agree the pristines are fairly easy to make just a bit time consuming that's all and finding ink well...thats another thread. My main concern was although adding the app2-4 finally makes quality matter to a sage it does nothing to make thier products any more valuable. An app4 will sell no greater than an app3 and will be no easier or harder to craft. So the change has basically no effect. We still can not compete with the adept drops without crafting at a loss of money. The way I see it is our pristine combine has to be an adept1 in order to compete

Or we posibly need new recipes that instill the magic into those adept drops so they are not usable until a sage "scribes' them if you will.

CerraWhisperwind · 01-01-2005, 10:01 AM

Perhaps they could remove adept drops and replace them with the rare mineral needed to make the adept inks?

EEGA314 · 01-01-2005, 03:24 PM

I think is is not necessary to change the drop rate of adept-1 spell book.We just need to change a basic setting in game system. Currently if youget an adept-1 spell book, you may sribe it and upgrade to adept-1 directlyeven you have only app-1 spell. If we put a limitation that only ppl alreadyscribe app4 (or app3) can upgrade their skill to adept-1, those low levelscrolls will have more value.

Captain_Xpendab · 01-01-2005, 03:47 PM

EEGA314 wrote:
If we put a limitation that only ppl already scribe app4 (or app3) can upgrade their skill to adept-1, those low level scrolls will have more value.

I like this idea, though I can envision many people howling bloody murder about it, I think this could be a good solution in the long run.

Edited to add: I do think that having pristines come out as Adept 1s is a better idea, but this just seems like a good alternative, assuming that App IVs are here to stay.

Message Edited by CaptXpendable on 01-01-2005 03:08 AM

CerraWhisperwind · 01-01-2005, 08:47 PM

They could come out with an item that "bumps" your skill level one "point", from app1 to app2, from app4 to adept1, etc, with a cap at adept2. I think more people would use these to bump app4 to adept1 than adept1 to adept2.They could even have multiple versions of it, items that only work if your current skill rank is apprentice, and another kind that works for adept...

Neko · 01-02-2005, 04:56 AM

How is either going to effect pricing?

Are we going to see Adept4 priced in the double gold digits?

CerraWhisperwind · 01-02-2005, 08:36 AM

There is no adept 4 from crafting. The only change was to the apprentice level. Any adept 4 would be quested for.

RedDragon · 01-02-2005, 08:15 PM

"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift."

Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well.

On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell.

Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have SMILEY

I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already.

Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness?

Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 01-02-2005 07:18 AM

CerraWhisperwind · 01-02-2005, 08:53 PM

Adept 1 is better than app4. Look at the first summoner pet. At apprentice level it is a beetle, at adept it is a spider. The category is the most important part of the spell level, the 1-4 within the category is just fine tuning.

Neko · 01-02-2005, 10:21 PM

RedDragon44 wrote:

"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift."

Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well.

On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell.

Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have

I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already.

Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness?

Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 01-02-2005 07:18 AM

I agree.

Adept1s should be better than App4s, and thus giving the option to the player - wait for the slightly better Adept1 or pay a player for App4 now.

This allows the non-crafter player an alternative if App4 pricing begins to inflate.

ekiand · 01-03-2005, 12:15 PM

Neko wrote:

RedDragon44 wrote:

"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift."

Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well.

On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell.

Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have

I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already.

Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness?

Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 01-02-2005 07:18 AM

I agree.

Adept1s should be better than App4s, and thus giving the option to the player - wait for the slightly better Adept1 or pay a player for App4 now.

This allows the non-crafter player an alternative if App4 pricing begins to inflate.

That's the whole problem. The adept1's always cost less than the app3/app4 and drop like flies. No one buys the apps ever and no one has cash unless you farm or exploit. And adept1 is not a simple upgrade. The jump from app3 to adept1 is much more noticable then the jump form app1 to app3. Often times you get extra benefits from adept1 such as my Grim Spellbinder getting a new spell with the adept version over the app3 version.

CerraWhisperwind · 01-03-2005, 08:10 PM

Why doesn't anyone have cash when they can do a 12 silver quest for just harvesting 15 items? Its not like you have to be a crafter to do this.

j · 01-04-2005, 12:51 AM

the problem is this hurts us sages even more .

Look at it this way .

You have some adept 1s selling as low as 10s and some up to 1.5g in the lvl 20-29 stages.

As a sage the best way to lvl is to make 1 of each spell for discovery bonus .

Lets take a look at hte prices to make this

ink of any quality lvl 20-30s

quills 20s

paper 15s

this is 55-65s just to make the spell

Right now we get an app3 no matter what .

To sell an app3 that has an adept 1 verson of it that drops often i have to price about 30s cheaper than the adept 1 .

So if something is 1g . 100 silver , i need to price it at 70s . That means i make 15-5s a spell . I have to make about 100 spells to lvl

100 inks are 30g

100 quills are 10g

100 paper are 15g

That means for every lvl i spend 55g to lvl.

on average i make back 50 of that so far .

App4s will now make the majority of my spells worthless. Wil lhave me spend more money as I now have to make pristine spells to sell any of them.

This is just a nerf for sages

12-28-2004, 01:29 AM	#2
Armeng General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 66	I have to agree on the adept 1 books, however imo the drop rates are too high on them is really the problem __________________ Fayah,(retired) others

12-28-2004, 02:50 AM	#3
PhourZwanZig Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 39	To high.. LOL.. my lvl 20 (almost 21) necromancer only has on adept 1 skill, and I do have a hard time even seeing those skills for sale.. So I wouldnt say they are too High drop rate.. To me it seems that Some just drop more than others, so it just might need a tweak in the randomness of which Adepts drop.. Edit.. As far as the App4 spells.. I love this change.. Now if I cant find my drops (well when this hits live, my test char still has alot of App1-3 spells and 1 App 4) my necro can upgrade her spells to gain some ground.. being 20 w/o Adepts is making her a lil weak Message Edited by PhourZwanZig on 12-27-2004 01:52 PM __________________ Mind my spelling, the checker needs a good boot.... Also Test Subjects are: 31 Fury - Tinker

12-28-2004, 02:53 AM	#4
Di0Xi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	I got about half my skills 1-29 in adept1 but above that I've only found 2.. and I've been searching for 31-45 skills for a few days now on brokers and there really aren't that many. Edit: Doh, sorry didn't notice was posting on tester forum :p, I just clicked the title from outside since sounded interesting.. but I'm talking of the non-test servers when I quote my experiance with drops. It may have changed. Anyway.. I don't want crafters to make adept1 that would make the drops pretty much useless most of the time. Message Edited by Di0XiDe on 12-27-2004 10:03 PM __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kildritch - Gnome Defiler (Spltpaw) Kilbert - Halfling Bruiser (Splitpaw) Kildred - Gnome Druid (Antonia Bayle) Also been Krald in Horizons (retired) Kirinta, Krangaf, Gargak and Langlam in WoW.

12-28-2004, 07:37 AM	#5
ekiand Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 26	Di0XiDe wrote: Anyway.. I don't want crafters to make adept1 that would make the drops pretty much useless most of the time. Message Edited by Di0XiDe on 12-27-2004 10:03 PM How is being able to craft the exact same thing that drops making drops useless. All this deos is make crafted spells/skills useful. If you want an upgrade you get options from this: 1) Buy from crafter 2) Buy from other player that found a scroll drop 3) Wait and hope you can find a possible drop App4 does nothing to make the crafted skills viable with the adept drops and I thought the whole intent was to make the crafters an integral part of EQ2. As of now they have been hampered. bugged, and marginalized. Another option would to have the crafters instill magic on the adepts so you still need a crafter to be able to use that adept1 drop. As of know the adept1 drops are stifling crafters the Sage in particular. The reason you can't find necro adept drops is because they don't drop at all.

12-28-2004, 01:43 PM	#8
stewi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 69	Syanis wrote: I thought of this before also. It could work but the possible downfall is since now we'd be craftin an adept 1 (needa have it look like a normal spell scroll imo) issue will arise that may lower the value of what we craft adept 1 thats a common drop just person xyz couldn't find it at the time. Now we craft a bunch of adept 1's n toss em on our vendor for the night.... someone else throws up adept 1's droped for the seeming normal price of adept 1's being 15-20sp for 20-29..... now when a 20-29 spell/skill costs us 40spish to make and we charge 50-60sp for end product we're looked at as overcharging majorly cause its just an adept 1 ... drop right? Maybe a better way is having app 4 equal to adept 1's (and post it specifically from SoE on equivalency). really thou just needa tone down the adept 1 drops majorly thou. Syanis 37 sage Steamfont that is only a downfall if the sage doesnt do his homework. even if you could craft adept1's for every skill, no sage on my server would even try to compete with certain book drops. for instance, on the market now are about 30 adept1's for daunting gaze, which is an enchanter drop. since enchanters are somewhat rare and the book drops at a ludicrous rate, it would be silly to make that spell.. of course, if you do your homework, asking classes what they need, you will notice many skills drop only rarely, or never at all.. i would pay a gold or more for an adept1 entrance if it was on the market. trust me, i know which of my spells are rare drops, and will pay what i have to to get them. sages would lose no sales unless they made nondesireable spells. that said, i too would like to see them change it to crafting app2 for base, adept1 for pristine. they could even change the rare spells that way too.. adept2 for base, master1 for pristine. __________________ Umali - 37 Gnomish Illusionist - Neriak

12-28-2004, 01:02 AM	#1
ekiand Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 26	I really don't understand the logic behind the addition of app4. I understand why it was added, to make quality matter for a sage, but it does nothing to address the problems of a sage. Well I think my suggestion nicely fixes both issues. A sage can now compete with adept1 drops and also make the quality of his craft matter.

12-28-2004, 09:32 AM	#6
MadChapeli Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1	While I do not play on test, I've been thinking a lot on this issue of App 4 and Adept 1. I think that Adept 1 drops need to be reduced ONLY for those that have a high rate of drop atm. There are some that seem very rare and some that seem very common and I think it should be an even chance for anything when it comes to books. Now that makes Adept 1 book drops uncommon/rare. Now, as for App 4, I think if it was either as powerful as Adept 1 or just a nice middleground between Adept and App 3 we'd all be happy. The thing is though, that Adept 1 tends to give some major bonuses that App 3 lacks, and will likely not be included in App 4. The question here is why is it that adventuring for skills, killing hundreds of mobs in hopes of finding your skill/spell Adept is favored over the crafting of it? Crafting is perhaps the most tedious and expensive means to gain Adept quality. Not only does the economy inflate the prices of rare components (which I can understand.. they are rare after all) but it makes it impossible for some of us (like me, who on live cannot find Tellurian Soldier in adept form in any method other than crafting.. which means that poor little me will likely never see it) to ever obtain. I think that high level Artisans should be able to gain a skill that I'll just call "Keen Eye" that only increases as your artisan level increases. This skill would allow a bonus to be given to the odds of finding a rare component. A level 30 Artisan should have a far easier time finding rares in Tier 1 zones than a level 5 Artisan. Now if that same 30 artisan went to a Tier 5 zone, they would have almost no chance at finding a rare. They're dealing with materials far outside of their knowledge in higher tiers, and dealing with materials they've mastered and know intimately. The bonus would be small, but any bonus will be helpful to those people who spend so much time tradeskilling and keep those who have no interest in tradeskilling from hawking rares to those who can really use it (to a greater degree). I feel that Sages should be capable of producing any quality book up to Adept 4 (Master tomes are relics from the past, there will be no argument from me that Sages should never be able to craft these), as long as they can attain the proper materials. If recipes were added so that Uncommon harvests (not presently in game) which are far more common than rares, but far less common than common, they could be used to make Adept 1 quality, where Adept 1 would be Pristine, App 4 would be 3rd and so on. That would add a diversity to the game that I think Sages truly deserve. Few people choose that path simply because it's difficult to raise and even more difficult to profit from. I mostly am hoping to see some change made that will help balance the economy better by making access to Adept 1 for everyone more possible.

12-28-2004, 11:13 AM	#7
Syanis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 60	I thought of this before also. It could work but the possible downfall is since now we'd be craftin an adept 1 (needa have it look like a normal spell scroll imo) issue will arise that may lower the value of what we craft adept 1 thats a common drop just person xyz couldn't find it at the time. Now we craft a bunch of adept 1's n toss em on our vendor for the night.... someone else throws up adept 1's droped for the seeming normal price of adept 1's being 15-20sp for 20-29..... now when a 20-29 spell/skill costs us 40spish to make and we charge 50-60sp for end product we're looked at as overcharging majorly cause its just an adept 1 ... drop right? Maybe a better way is having app 4 equal to adept 1's (and post it specifically from SoE on equivalency). really thou just needa tone down the adept 1 drops majorly thou. Syanis 37 sage Steamfont

12-28-2004, 06:15 PM	#9
Anlari Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 107	I'm with the original poster on this. The number of times I have made a "pristine" quality scroll is rare indeed. This means that as long as app 4 spells can be made, then that is all that will sell. Noone will want anything lower then app 4. With the rate of success in getting an app 4 so low, I honestly think this make most of what we scribe completely useless. So then we have our few app 4 spells, they now have to compete with the Adept 1 drops. I know when I'm not playing my crafter now a days, that I no longer even worry about App spells most of the time. I would rather wait and save and buy them off vendors or try and find a drop of Adept. I have 5 characters currently (yes I pay the extra for the extra slots, SOE got me) and I have nearly every ability on each of them at adept 1. All in all, this is an upgrade that is mearly a smoke screen and not a fix for the problem at all. It does nothing realy to help scribes, and does far more to hurt them in my opinion. __________________

12-28-2004, 06:49 PM	#10
kata Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them. A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.) Part two: the chest never "unlocks" to people outside the group (yes it sucks, but it prevents the "guy standing next to it" scenario and keeps in line the idea of "risk vs. reward", that you didn't "risk" the encounter therefore you can't just wait around for the reward.) As for app2 through app4, I'm ambivilent. If it results in "shaped ink" (along with one hopes quills and paper) being for sale on tradeskill instance vendors so sages can at least skillup and levelup and do wholesaler quests. Since the best possible result for shaped ink would be an app2 spell, hardly marketable , this would allow sages to gain levels without going broke. __________________ Katahn "I have my standards! They're low, but I have them." Tvelix, Teir'dal Mage/Artisan (Antonia Bayle Server) (RP)

12-28-2004, 07:20 PM	#11
Shazzbott_Feldercarb Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 102	Right now, with crude ink, i can make an spp3 spell on live. This is the only tradeskil that does not have a scaleing quality level. This change does nothing more then make scribing spells act the same as all the other tradeskills.This isn't a change to the way spells power up, it has no bearing on Adepts. It simply makes the scroll/rune/essence skills work the same as all the other tradeskills.As for drop rate for adepts, that is something different.Just my 2cpShazz

12-28-2004, 08:30 PM	#12
Lancealittle Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 181	Don't forget how the items scale. Crafters can already make an item better than the group mob drop with Adept 3. Apprentice 3 (and now 4) are player crafted items made from common components. That's above store purchased spells (app2) but below items crafted from rare resources. That fits in with how items from other crafters work as well. The problem really lies in what's dropping the spells. Normal group mobs are dropping spells that are better than the common crafted item. You may upgrade a spell from a common mob drop, but if you get a sword or piece of armor it will be junk compared to a similar level crafted item. App3 and 4 are fine the way they are, they just need to move adept 1 to named mobs. That would make them less common and not attainable by someone soloing green ^^. They also can make it so adept dropped spells are no trade. With so many different types of spells, people may find 10 or more before they find one they can use themselves, and then they sell the rest on the market. If everyone is finding spells, then there are many more spells on the market than people who need them. That won't happen, because then they have to do that with all mob dropped items to be fair. __________________ Eeek- Ratonga Fury - Test Gildenrose - High Elf Swashbuckler - Test Lancealittle - Gnome Guardian - Test

12-28-2004, 09:08 PM	#13
Feaw Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 199	If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift. __________________ [ insert Feawin's cool sig here ] ask for fixes not nerfs

12-28-2004, 10:30 PM	#14
Kwoung Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 710	katahn wrote: As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them. A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.) That is a terrible idea... they already have TLC to deal with that, if someone wants to hunt for no XP in order to get something they need for themselves, a friend or to sell that is their business... they are giving up XP to do so, which is more than enough of a downside. I personally disable XP on many occassions for many different reasons, the main one being the ability to let my friends catch up while still allowing me to help them do so. Us having to give up all chances of loot dropping would be a terrible thing. Not to mention getting stuff like language quests that require drops from chests to complete... I already screwed up and outleveled WC with only one page to go, I am not going to let that happen again even if I have to disable XP for days to get the drop. __________________ Everquest II Test Server Community

12-30-2004, 12:01 AM	#15
kata Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	Kwoung wrote: katahn wrote: As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them. A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.) That is a terrible idea... they already have TLC to deal with that, if someone wants to hunt for no XP in order to get something they need for themselves, a friend or to sell that is their business... they are giving up XP to do so, which is more than enough of a downside. I personally disable XP on many occassions for many different reasons, the main one being the ability to let my friends catch up while still allowing me to help them do so. Us having to give up all chances of loot dropping would be a terrible thing. Not to mention getting stuff like language quests that require drops from chests to complete... I already screwed up and outleveled WC with only one page to go, I am not going to let that happen again even if I have to disable XP for days to get the drop. I agree the TLC is annoying as all get out, it was the reason I had to give up on the orc language quest in the Wailing Caves. But its like encounter locking prevents kill-stealing, and allows for better encounter tuning, or the fact that mobs away from their start point are highly unlikely to aggro passerbys unless attacked first preventing training. They are measures meant to counteract a misuse of game features or other forms of griefing. Disabling xp gain to farm mobs that drop good-value loot happens, if nothing else people can and did stay on the Isle of Refuge farming for rare artisan book drops. The solution there was to remove them from the drop tables, which I think is a bit unfortunate. It pretty much deprives the genuine newbie of the chance to discover a really cool item. As I see it, the solution is either to move adept1 spell drops to the named++ group mobs for the level or level range, or leave them in and make it so they can't be farmed (or farmed for long or easily.) Either way works. Disabling chest drops or items from being in chests that aren't quest related, lore, nodrop, or some combination of the above, allows for avoiding the "get the named mob for the cool loot" mentality of EQLive but also blocks farming of sellables that can disrupt the economy. In other words, mobs wouldn't drop vendorable loot in chests, but would continue to drop items that were basically not vendorable at all and especially if they were quest related. The farmers are driven out of business, and those using the disabled xp gain in a less disruptive fashion aren't penalized beyond the inability to farm easy cash. The reason this issue is even noticable is because adept1 drops aren't vendorable for more than a few silver pieces, whereas comparable drops from mobs are vendorable for fairly decent coin, at least in comparison to what is on the market from players. Since short of harvesting a rare, a sage cannot do better than apprentice 3 (apprentice 4 when the change goes live), adept drops are automatically the best thing typically on the market. So, since they can be gotten "easily", aren't worth it to sell to NPCs, and will almost always be the best, you see a lot of them for sale. But just because the problem is visible the most there, doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere. After all, this is why we don't have coin loot (ie. people could disable xp gain and farm it forever and disrupt the economy.) What EQ2 does need, is some form of "sidekicking" or "reverse sidekicking" ala City of Heroes. Something that allows friends to group together without needing to roll up an alt (assuming they have a free slot.) That would get around the "need" to disable xp gain in order to not outlevel your friends. __________________ Katahn "I have my standards! They're low, but I have them." Tvelix, Teir'dal Mage/Artisan (Antonia Bayle Server) (RP)

12-30-2004, 11:02 AM	#16
CerraWhisperwind Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 151	Anlarius wrote: I'm with the original poster on this. The number of times I have made a "pristine" quality scroll is rare indeed. This means that as long as app 4 spells can be made, then that is all that will sell. Noone will want anything lower then app 4. With the rate of success in getting an app 4 so low, I honestly think this make most of what we scribe completely useless. So then we have our few app 4 spells, they now have to compete with the Adept 1 drops. Note from a level 18 scholar on test: for apprentice IV scrolls, once I became level 10 and got my second set of crafting buffs for scholar, I have never failed to get pristine on the spell combine, even when doing white con spells. My ink rate early on was about 75% pristine (requires 3 combines all pristine) but has improved to about 95% (1 in 20 not pristine). Even if you loose pristine during the crafting session, you can get it back with the 2nd set of buffs. People won't have any problems pumping out the pristine spells.

12-30-2004, 09:58 PM	#17
nicholaspoi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	I totaly agree with the original post. I am a level 24 sage (Enoel Everforst) and I can only make apprentice spells? that sell for less than adept1 spells? errrr why call me a sage then? Hey Sony Online, why not just call me an apprentice duh!!!!! Regards, Enoel Sage lev 24 (realy like apprentice level 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Everfrost

01-01-2005, 01:45 AM	#18
ekiand Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 26	CerraWhisperwind wrote: Note from a level 18 scholar on test: for apprentice IV scrolls, once I became level 10 and got my second set of crafting buffs for scholar, I have never failed to get pristine on the spell combine, even when doing white con spells. My ink rate early on was about 75% pristine (requires 3 combines all pristine) but has improved to about 95% (1 in 20 not pristine). Even if you loose pristine during the crafting session, you can get it back with the 2nd set of buffs. People won't have any problems pumping out the pristine spells. I agree the pristines are fairly easy to make just a bit time consuming that's all and finding ink well...thats another thread. My main concern was although adding the app2-4 finally makes quality matter to a sage it does nothing to make thier products any more valuable. An app4 will sell no greater than an app3 and will be no easier or harder to craft. So the change has basically no effect. We still can not compete with the adept drops without crafting at a loss of money. The way I see it is our pristine combine has to be an adept1 in order to compete Or we posibly need new recipes that instill the magic into those adept drops so they are not usable until a sage "scribes' them if you will.

01-01-2005, 10:01 AM	#19
CerraWhisperwind Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 151	Perhaps they could remove adept drops and replace them with the rare mineral needed to make the adept inks?

01-01-2005, 03:24 PM	#20
EEGA314 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	I think is is not necessary to change the drop rate of adept-1 spell book.We just need to change a basic setting in game system. Currently if youget an adept-1 spell book, you may sribe it and upgrade to adept-1 directlyeven you have only app-1 spell. If we put a limitation that only ppl alreadyscribe app4 (or app3) can upgrade their skill to adept-1, those low levelscrolls will have more value.

01-01-2005, 03:47 PM	#21
Captain_Xpendab General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: I'M IN THE PHONE BOOK!!! I'M SOMEBODY!!! Posts: 205	EEGA314 wrote: If we put a limitation that only ppl already scribe app4 (or app3) can upgrade their skill to adept-1, those low level scrolls will have more value. I like this idea, though I can envision many people howling bloody murder about it, I think this could be a good solution in the long run. Edited to add: I do think that having pristines come out as Adept 1s is a better idea, but this just seems like a good alternative, assuming that App IVs are here to stay. Message Edited by CaptXpendable on 01-01-2005 03:08 AM __________________ __________________________________________________ ____ "Let me guess, my theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie." It's been nice working with you GIR, now self destruct. FINALLY!!!HEhehehehehehehe BOOM "One foozlebit short of a fwinger"

01-01-2005, 08:47 PM	#22
CerraWhisperwind Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 151	They could come out with an item that "bumps" your skill level one "point", from app1 to app2, from app4 to adept1, etc, with a cap at adept2. I think more people would use these to bump app4 to adept1 than adept1 to adept2.They could even have multiple versions of it, items that only work if your current skill rank is apprentice, and another kind that works for adept...

01-02-2005, 04:56 AM	#23
Neko Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 96	How is either going to effect pricing? Are we going to see Adept4 priced in the double gold digits?

01-02-2005, 08:36 AM	#24
CerraWhisperwind Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 151	There is no adept 4 from crafting. The only change was to the apprentice level. Any adept 4 would be quested for.

01-02-2005, 08:15 PM	#25
RedDragon Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 42	"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift." Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well. On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell. Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already. Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness? Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 01-02-2005 07:18 AM

01-02-2005, 08:53 PM	#26
CerraWhisperwind Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 151	Adept 1 is better than app4. Look at the first summoner pet. At apprentice level it is a beetle, at adept it is a spider. The category is the most important part of the spell level, the 1-4 within the category is just fine tuning.

01-02-2005, 10:21 PM	#27
Neko Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 96	RedDragon44 wrote: "If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift." Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well. On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell. Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already. Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness? Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 01-02-2005 07:18 AM I agree. Adept1s should be better than App4s, and thus giving the option to the player - wait for the slightly better Adept1 or pay a player for App4 now. This allows the non-crafter player an alternative if App4 pricing begins to inflate.

01-03-2005, 12:15 PM	#28
ekiand Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 26	Neko wrote: RedDragon44 wrote: "If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift." Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well. On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell. Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already. Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness? Message Edited by RedDragon44 on 01-02-2005 07:18 AM I agree. Adept1s should be better than App4s, and thus giving the option to the player - wait for the slightly better Adept1 or pay a player for App4 now. This allows the non-crafter player an alternative if App4 pricing begins to inflate. That's the whole problem. The adept1's always cost less than the app3/app4 and drop like flies. No one buys the apps ever and no one has cash unless you farm or exploit. And adept1 is not a simple upgrade. The jump from app3 to adept1 is much more noticable then the jump form app1 to app3. Often times you get extra benefits from adept1 such as my Grim Spellbinder getting a new spell with the adept version over the app3 version.

01-03-2005, 08:10 PM	#29
CerraWhisperwind Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 151	Why doesn't anyone have cash when they can do a 12 silver quest for just harvesting 15 items? Its not like you have to be a crafter to do this.

01-04-2005, 12:51 AM	#30
j Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 210	the problem is this hurts us sages even more . Look at it this way . You have some adept 1s selling as low as 10s and some up to 1.5g in the lvl 20-29 stages. As a sage the best way to lvl is to make 1 of each spell for discovery bonus . Lets take a look at hte prices to make this ink of any quality lvl 20-30s quills 20s paper 15s this is 55-65s just to make the spell Right now we get an app3 no matter what . To sell an app3 that has an adept 1 verson of it that drops often i have to price about 30s cheaper than the adept 1 . So if something is 1g . 100 silver , i need to price it at 70s . That means i make 15-5s a spell . I have to make about 100 spells to lvl 100 inks are 30g 100 quills are 10g 100 paper are 15g That means for every lvl i spend 55g to lvl. on average i make back 50 of that so far . App4s will now make the majority of my spells worthless. Wil lhave me spend more money as I now have to make pristine spells to sell any of them. This is just a nerf for sages